Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Athletics

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WikiProject Athletics (Rated Project-class)
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Category:Year rankings in athletics[edit]

What do people make of these rankings articles? Is there a better way we could support this kind of information? Certainly no other sports topic area appears to keep these kinds of season articles. Lists tend to be of more broader, crucial information (e.g. List of Premier League players with 100 or more goals, or the athletics world record progression series). Perhaps a better approach might be a seasonal overview of the event instead, for example, 2010 in hammer throwing instead of 2010 Hammer Throw Year Ranking? SFB 19:50, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

We do seem to be very statistically oriented, reflecting the nature of the sport. With the requirements of the need to demonstrate notability, much less the dry encyclopedic format, we tend to lose the story. I've struggled with the developing advancements this year in the men's high jump. There is no place to tell the story except individual articles which doesn't really explain the broader significance of a crowd of athletes making a move into the Beamonesque league of Sotomayor in a non-championship year. Is there a better place? And if there is, if I haven't noticed it, I'm guessing the much less active members of the public haven't. And if we bother to make it, how will we attract the public to find it? Trackinfo (talk) 20:16, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
@Trackinfo: I've always thought the right location for this kind of info would be the "Year X in athletics". I noticed you tried something similar at 1968 in athletics. Ideally each year we would have a section on each broader discipline (e.g. sprinting, long-distance, hurdling, jumps, throwing etc) along the lines of sources like those at 2011_in_athletics_(track_and_field)#Further_reading. I've been meaning to have a go at building a "model" article for this type of thing, but haven't had the time to get around to it.
It's not just our project: you'll notice that all of the year articles (from 2013 in sports to 2013 in association football) are just collections of yearly stats rather than prose summaries on the most prominent aspects of the sport that year. I believe this happens because (a) it's a lot less time-intensive to collect numbers than summarise and abridge complex and sprawling areas of knowledge, and (b) most editors are generalists so simply don't have the knowledge-base to adequately approach the topic in a non-statistical way. You need to get to something like 2013 NFL season (a much more limited and predictable topic) to get to the point where the prose starts to dominate.
Saying that, in athletics we don't even reach that level very often: I made a bit of an effort to document non-stats elements of the 2013 World Championships in Athletics and a greater effort with 2010 IAAF World Half Marathon Championships, but this takes time. I'm very thankful that lots of editors have the desire to document athletics results and stats, but in comparison we are still lacking in the in-depth analysis department. I guess (given the small percentage of Wikipedia editors to readers) athletics is still too minor a field to get this kind of coverage. SFB 13:22, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
1968 played into what I keep finding myself writing things that put a statistic or a result into perspective. Maybe you see that in all the "analysis" things I've written at major championships. The "year in" articles should cover more of that. There are general strategies that are the result of administrative decisions. The absence of a major championship in 2014 makes it a year top athletes might be more interested in setting records, or taking time off, than an Olympic or World Championship year when competition results are more of a priority. Or the invention of the World Relay Championships, jockeying of the Diamond League schedule might affect who runs where vs whom. This also gets into the athlete's strategic minds, a lot harder to source than statistics. Trackinfo (talk) 17:20, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
I am not a fan for listing the yearly ranking of every event per WP:NOTSTATSBOOK, particularly since it is typically (and should be) a mirror of what the IAAF has posted (WP:NOTMIRROR?). I might make an exception for an article that lists the top ranked man and women in a particular event for each year (e.g. Marathon year rankings). As noted above, I tend to like "Year X in athletics" in that it leaves more room for encyclopedic discussion of a topic. Location (talk) 17:40, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't think mirroring official sources for stats is a problem in itself, as long as the amount of listing is relevant and not excessive. For example, we list all the stats for world record progressions because any omission would be a detriment to the reader (in a way that omission of who ranked 50-100th in the world in 2002 would not). SFB 08:33, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
FYI - I have moved these ranking pages to "Year in x" names on the basis that the yearly ranking in a sport is not notable in itself, but a sport's events in a certain year is (and we have a strong history of this article type).
As an aside - I have nominated Category:Marathoning for a rename at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2014_July_12#Category:Marathoning. SFB 10:00, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing the way to the rename discussion. I've voiced my support there. On the subject of mirrors and stats lists: The actual record progression list within Marathon world record progression relies heavily on the IAAF record book and ARRS listing, but it is an article with discussion about the subject that does not simply mirror a list found elsewhere. This is similar to what you are suggesting above in that yearly top lists should be in context of other information about the event for that particular year. I support that idea. Location (talk) 19:32, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

DYK update Suggestion[edit]

The DYK on the front page of this project needs to be updated NickGibson3900 (Talk - Cont.) 17:42, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

I will add (discovered while searching for the DYK) the entire box under Statistics links to a tool server that appears to be dead. Trackinfo (talk) 20:55, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
I went back and tried to pull up some history. I added a few entries but I left them hidden at the moment. I don't know how much I missed or if there is a more proper way of achieving such a list. There is a relatively new entry in there from another editor that does not appear. I don't know why it doesn't. What is very apparent is someone is feeding Paralympic DYK ideas (obviously with success) quite often, which gives that project a lot of exposure. Maybe we should be that aggressive. As always, by whose energy and how? Trackinfo (talk) 21:35, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
The DYK sections in Wikipedia:WikiProject Athletics and Portal:Athletics have suffered due to lack of participation, and the pages themselves are hit relatively infrequently (they average about 10 and 20 hits per day respectively). I don't think it's really worth the effort into keeping them updated, so it's probably best just to scrap those sections for the time being. Location (talk) 20:07, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
Back in the day I added a number of entries to the DYK subpage, but it's fairly hard work and the interest in this page is probably marginal, so in that respect I tend to agree with Location. The recent DYK list is worth something if it's kept current, otherwise it serves little purpose.
The full list of DYK entries within the scope of WP Athletics can be obtained through CatScan here (exactly 300 of them right now). GregorB (talk) 21:41, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
Personally, I have opted to deliberately neglect these areas. At avg. 25 hits per day, the athletics portal fails to register half the total hits of the project's 500th most popular article – effort is better spent on something like Blessing Okagbare.
The reason for such low portal viewing figures is cultural, not maintenance-related. For example, Man versus Horse Marathon got more views last month than Portal:Association football (4692 vs. 4542) – yes, that's the portal for the most popular sport in the world in a period involving the sport's biggest event! Portals are not well-linked in the article base or from the main page. Recentism is discouraged, even though many of our readers use the site that way, so portals have no real purpose currently – most readers don't want to see a "selection" of various good articles, they want the key topics and info on what's happening now. SFB 21:45, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
I agree, this is a very good analysis. Portals sound like a nice idea, but they require a lot of work while attracting very little attention.
The same more or less applies to the "DYK announcements" section: it is of interest more or less only to project members. This may be useful as a some sort of encouragement or incentive for them, but DYK creation rate is already rather high. One day, Article alerts will support DYKs anyway. GregorB (talk) 22:05, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Parallel high jump[edit]

While researching Dragutin Topić I stumbled onto this video of the parallel high jump. It looks like a real crowd pleaser but based on google, it apparently is an exclusively Serbian thing. I don't find enough to justify it as a regular event. 2.18m under such circumstances is impressive. So I don't really know what to do with it. Trackinfo (talk) 08:28, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Very interesting! Worth a mention as a novelty variation on high jump if you can get any decent sourcing. SFB 21:45, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Athletes at the World Champs[edit]

NickGibson3900 has recently started a new category type in the form of Category:Australian athletes at the World Championships in Athletics. This is an expansion similar to what is done for Category:Olympic athletes of Australia‎. What are people's thoughts on this?

I think national categories for the World Championships are a good idea, as are corresponding articles like the one Nick has started at Australia at the World Championships in Athletics. These articles are a solid base to build on for national results at the competition (as opposed to the time-consuming country at edition ones which are often poorly done).

However, I will say that I don't think we should start the related "by year" categories like Category:Athletes (track and field) at the 2012 Summer Olympics‎. While an Olympic appearance may be a definitive aspect of an athlete's career, World Championship ones occur to frequently as to diminish them as defining aspects of an athlete (consider Susana Feitor and her 11 appearances). SFB 12:58, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I completely agree with SFB NickGibson3900 (Talk - Cont.) 22:46, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Although I'm not likely to assist on building the categories, I agree on all points, too. Nice work! Location (talk) 00:28, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Last year I created United States at the 2013 World Championships in Athletics and articles for several other key countries as well, sticking my toe into the fine tradition we have had. While I was very active keeping the event articles up to date (amongst a lot of activity and inaccuracies), I didn't have the time to keep the countries at articles up to date, and nobody else much cared to do the same. So we are a year out and it still has not been updated. I surmise there is not that much need for the cross accounting country articles. Categories are much easier to maintain, copy/paste, than an article, yet can largely deliver the same information. Save articles for the time that there is some real, prose related purpose--a story to tell. That said, a year attribution would be helpful though the wiki system seems to fight that. Trackinfo (talk) 03:41, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Tagging for WikiProject Athletics[edit]

Per instructions in my bot's page, the community should be notified for mass tagging to reduce errors. Tagging for WikiProject Athletics will start in 3 days in the categories given to me by User:Sillyfolkboy, a lead member of the project. The list can be found at Wikipedia:WikiProject Athletics/Categories. Please report any disagreements/doubts/concerns on my talk page. -- Magioladitis (talk) 17:34, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Task done. It took more than expected due to problems in category tree. -- Magioladitis (talk) 22:51, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Well done. Thanks for taking care of this! Location (talk) 23:25, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Non-qualifiers notable[edit]

A deletion discussion around the usefulness of Category:Northern Mariana Islander sprinters has raised the matter of whether all athletes that compete at the IAAF World Championships in Athletics are notable. In the current notability criteria we state that anyone who competes is probably notable. However, this does not account for the athletes that do not get the qualifying time to compete properly, but are entered as a small nation's "non-qualifying entrant" per IAAF rules.

For example, Orrin Ogumoro Pharmin (100m PB 12.60) competed at the 2011 World Championships in Athletics on this basis. For comparison, his personal best would have ranked him outside the top 500 British under-15-year-olds in 2013 (he was 25).

Do we consider all World and Olympic competitors as notable? Or should we amend the first point of the notability criteria to from "Has competed in the Olympics or senior IAAF World Championships" to "Has qualified to compete at the Olympics or senior IAAF World Championships"? SFB 20:02, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I've participated in the discussion at WP:NSPORT where they play the semantic game of presumed notability based on the circumstance, therefore complying with WP:GNG. A few disingenuous editors have challenged that premise to try to shoot down the current standard. While I don't think the message has reached the depths of the stone headed, so far, challenge accepted and rebuffed. That as a preface, I would say anybody selected by their national governing body to represent them at the the World Championships or Olympics would qualify under WP:GNG. If we had access to the local press of those small countries, this person is the national representative and is a hero of sorts. A few years back, I recall American Samoa submitted their best athlete, Sogelau Tuvalu which I documented. IAAF, in their infinite wisdom, placed him into the preliminary round of the 2011 World Championships in Athletics – Men's 100 metres along with similar athletes from other small countries. Problem is, Tuvalu is a shot put specialist. He ran a PB of 15.66 in front of the worldwide audience. There's plenty of worldwide press about it. I chose not to spend my time writing his article, but he certainly would qualify under GNG. Finishing ahead of him was Orrin Ogumoro Pharmin from the Northern Mariana Islands who would have gained some global notoriety had not Tuvalu been there. Even without him in the more notable position of finishing dead last (only in his heat), Pharmin has almost 30 google hits just from results links and parallel IAAF reports. Sure it isn't a bio, but I would think that more than satisfies GNG. In his 12.60 seconds of fame he did something notable. Trackinfo (talk) 20:46, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Note that WP:NTRACK says that people who meet any of the listed criteria are presumed notable. The guideline apparently does not say what "presumed notable" exactly means, but I take it that it means more or less the same as in WP:GNG: "significant coverage in reliable sources creates an assumption, not a guarantee, that a subject should be included". So (and I'm perhaps being a wikilawyer a bit here), my understanding is that WP:NTRACK actually does not guarantee inclusion to e.g. Orrin Ogumoro Pharmin as it stands now, so a change in the criteria may not be really necessary.
One advantage of the current WP:NTRACK criterion #1 is that it is simple and easy to source: it shouldn't be too difficult to find sources that say someone competed at the OG or the WC, but it may be considerably more difficult to find whether he or she actually qualified or not. GregorB (talk) 22:13, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Minor question[edit]

Wondering about a potential move request: Belayneh Densamo or Belayneh Dinsamo? Thanks! Location (talk) 05:22, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I'd probably go with "Dinsamo" given IAAF usage and the fact that google results for that yield quality newspaper reports, whereas the "Densamo" yields mostly mirrors and forums. SFB 17:17, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I agree. The vast majority of book hits go with "Dinsamo". I'll see if I can find an admin to help with the move. Location (talk) 23:45, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Anna Alminova[edit]

Anna Alminova has served a doping ban and had her results from 16 February 2009 annulled. I've tried to update her article, but I had to give up on the list of personal bests, lots of the records listed were from 2009 and 2010 and are no longer valid. I also removed the templates Footer WBYP 1500m Women and Footer European Champions Indoor 1500m Women, where she is listed for results from 2009 and 2010, but I haven't edited the actual templates. Any articles about the events where her results have been annulled also needs updating. --46.15.97.204 (talk) 12:43, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I think we need to be careful that whatever we do reflects what the reliable sources (i.e. IAAF, in this instance) has to say. For example, we probably should not strike the Footer WBYP 1500m Women template since the IAAF still credits here with the top 1500m time in 2010.[1] Also, does "DSQ" in her Competition record accurately reflect what the IAAF has noted? In my opinion, I think we should leave things be with a footnote and citation next to an applicable result stating that it is as annulled mark according to the IAAF. Location (talk) 15:05, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Richard Thompson (athlete)[edit]

I'm trying to get Richard Thompson (athlete) to GA. However the previous editors have left the article in a bad state. The "career" section needs a massive revamp and help for one or two others would be good. I have worked a lot on the lead which is starting to take shape. If any one fills like helping me, message me at my talk page. Cheers -- NickGibson3900 - Talk - Sign my Guestbook 07:51, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

@NickGibson3900: It looks like you've made some good progress already. I think a summary of his college achievements would be useful. Normally I just include NCAA and conference championship info – Southeastern Conference (SEC) in this case – and try to summarise the overall achievements (e.g. number of division titles, school/conference records broken, total All-American honours, etc). American college profiles tend to go very in-depth so you really need to sort through the info and work out what is worth mentioning and what isn't! Give me a shout if you want me to check anything. The Walter Dix article may give you a good idea what this kind of good article looks like. SFB 17:24, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

References for 2014 Ibero-American Championships in Athletics – Results[edit]

Here is my problem. Can anybody help or has an idea? CroesJ (talk) 09:16, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

1) We don't have an explicit MoS but normally don't we just do medalists on the home page and make details pages for the rest of the competition? That would clean up the page considerably.
2) Call me sloppy. I would just make one link to the results page and that should suffice . . . that is until the LOC loses interest and kills the results pages. We need an archive. I prefer one link to 68 all going to the same master site.
Do we have a simpler program or system for formatting results like this from existing table layouts or PDF documents? I've tried to do it with some macros but invariably it breaks down to a lot of repetitive manual editing. I lose interest before all 40 some odd events from a major meet are done. Other editors follow the same pattern. 2014 World Junior Championships in Athletics has a lot of results missing. The sources are there but its a lot of manual labor, people lose interest. Trackinfo (talk) 10:07, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi Trackinfo.
1) I created 2014 Ibero-American Championships in Athletics and 2014 Ibero-American Championships in Athletics – Results. That's what you mean?
2) That's why I cited all 66 individual pages. Some archive servers scanning Wikipedia regularly, so there should be at least copies of the original pages. Another aspect: the master site is in Portuguese, and there might be problems to identify "Lançamento do Dardo" as javelin throw. Do you mean we need an own Wikipedia archive? And if, are there any copyright issues? CroesJ (talk) 12:16, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
First of all, CroesJ I have certainly noticed the excellence and consistency of your work. As I watch pages for vandals and the general lack of knowledge associated with Athletics, when I see your signature, I am pretty much assured anything you do is going to be accurate. What I was saying is we do not normally create one behemoth results page. We create a specific event details page. I created 2014 Ibero-American Championships in Athletics – Men's 100 metres from your work as an example. We would link that back to the main page as a small wikilink to "details." Thats been the unwritten MoS, which I try to follow. The slight mods I made were to make the width consistent 80& and reposition the reference. For the heats, I don't think I even found a proper place, just not as the very first thing. Ultimately it makes for a lot of smaller articles, the references are less cumbersome. To your original question, I don't know how to go directly to a link. Microsoft, or their site designer deliberately did something to make these kind of results harder to get to, or there is an error in their code, forcing a non-Portugese reader such as myself to guess. Your solution is awkward, but appropriate until someone else explains a solution to that.
To the point about archiving, from a wikipedia standpoint, you are doing everything correctly. The stance I have always taken on copyright of results are that the event holder has released these results to the public, to the press, specifically for the purposes of distribution. In doing so, they have released their copyright to this information. I've never had anybody question that stance. Even when we had the massive Darius Dhlomo copyvio situation, the stuff he copied from results sites is perfectly valid. What my concern is: if we don't capture this information soon after a major event, all this detail seems lost, or at best moved to another server that is even harder to find. LOCs in general, exist to build up to the event and have no long term plans to keep their operation or specifically these results alive in perpetuity after their domain registration expires. The slippery slope: dead links=unsourced=lets delete the article. No I've never seen it done with results, just that there are wiki idiots out there who might do something this stupid. Moreso in a BLP when an individual's one claim to notability (that we can find online) is an appearance at a major meet. When the meet disappears, so does our sourcing to prove their notability and yes those have gone to AfD. During the BLP deletion phase, thousands of articles were wiped out, though I did my best to rescue athletics articles. I was simply bringing up the issue here.
And my final question to you was, since you obviously copied and reformatted all these results from the sourced server; what program do you use to convert it to wiki format, or did you have to manually reformat all of this? If there is a simplified solution, we should make that public, so more results details can be captured and saved before the sites go down. Trackinfo (talk) 17:18, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
@Trackinfo: There was an intensive discussion (with your contribution) disregarding the use of specific event details pages for events other than "Olympic, World Championships, World Indoor Championships and European Championships". And the results article is in line with 2012 Ibero-American Championships in Athletics – Results, 2010 Ibero-American Championships in Athletics – Results,... So I don't see your point creating 2014 Ibero-American Championships in Athletics – Men's 100 metres.
Whenever we copy and publish the original (let's say PDF) sources on a Wikipedia archive server, then there might be copyright issues. Publishing of reformatted results should of course be no problem.
And of course there is no simplified solution for reformatting. I use a set of perl scripts interacting with Linux bash scripts and WikipediFS (no longer maintained). Of course, the input moduls have to be adjusted to the specific event. Nothing platform independent, no user interface, no documentation... Nothing secret, but just forget about it when you don't have fun in writing scripts. Although a lot of things are automated, the major work is to cross-check the output to ensure the reliability of what is to be published in Wikipedia.
Back to my original problem: Any better solution to get rid of this Microsoft error? CroesJ (talk) 11:56, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
This is a very unusual website design: it looks like certain database information is being cached when you load the results page - so when you haven't loaded that page yet you will not see the results. Your solution of mentioning this at the top of the references section is probably the best we've got. If you ever locate a full results PDF then we can link to that instead. Otherwise, the current solution is the best we have, I'm afraid.
In reference to the result page formats, my opinion hasn't changed and I agree with the current setup of combined results pages for the non-major competitions. The last thing I want to see is a deletion battle and/or laborious clean up process to maintain results of these events on Wikipedia. SFB 17:10, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Rick Wayne[edit]

The bodybuilding photo dtd 1967 is not Rick Wayne — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.183.56.140 (talk) 13:08, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

@Materialscientist: Can you address this? The image File:Rick Wayne 1967.jpg is from the 1967 Mr. Holland competition and is clearly a different person from Rick Wayne. Can you remove the image and try to find out who the competitor is? Thanks! SFB 17:28, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Relay champion template links[edit]

Hi. A discussion is ongoing at {{Footer Olympic Champions 4x100 m Men}} about what links should be included for the winning relay team. Potentially, this may lead to consensus about how links should be used on other relay champion navigation boxes. Please contribute to the discussion here. SFB 19:19, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Segmentation of Masters athletics[edit]

There are quite a number of very small and specific Masters athletics sporting articles. For example, there is an article for every age, sport and gender such as Masters M85 shot put world record progression. These don't appear to be article material. It seems a better approach would be to consolidate these smaller articles into broader articles that can explain their significance. M85, M75, M65, M55, M50, M45, M40, M35, M30, etc are similar in rules and history such that all the tables could be on a single page with significant results transcluded to an overarching article. But as it is, Masters M85 shot put world record progression doesn't appear to have enough context to stand alone. Even olympic sports are not broken down in such detail as separate transcluded articles. For example, the 100 metres article has numerous tables as well as a reference to Men's 100 metres world record progression. The substance of each of those articles is significant with both history and context. Shouldn't the Masters athletics sports record progressions have more meat on the bone, so to speak? --DHeyward (talk) 09:28, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree. I know User:Trackinfo has put a lot of work into these, but I agree that the material would be better disseminated in an article such as Masters shot put world record progressions. Location (talk) 12:57, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
@Trackinfo: has been very prolific in this area and I don't want to discourage the effort in any way and will help to consolidate as I am not content expert. I was not aware of Masters athletics and "New Page Patrol" brought me to his articles. Initially, my reaction was that these were A1 speedy candidates as no article contained context related to any encyclopedic value but before I ever do that, I look at editor, other articles etc. The articles recently created involved shot put so I suggested a merge to Shot put but after reviewing all the related Masters athletics sports and articles, I think consolidating them by sport and eliminating the distinction between age and gender is more appropriate. Even a broader article not just on progression (but including it) such as Masters athletics shot put and include a history section as well as all the segments and progressions. I think that's the only way to GA/FA and could be good for the entire category. Masters athletics would then have a section on each sport. I think there is enough info for that organization. Trackinfo, what's your thought on creating broader "by sport" articles that have the history of the sport in Masters athletics sport article and the progression tables? If creating small article tables is your passion, do you mind if I/we organize them into an encyclopedic article (either through transclusion or straight moves)? My first vision of the organization/story is:

Trackinfo, I don't want to hinder your page contributions which I realize are tedious and loaded with data but I'd rather like to help consolidate that data into broader topics that link back through a hierarchy to the main article and tell the reader about the topic without just landing on a disjoint table linked only by a list or category. Please give your input. I don't mind gnoming/transcluding your tables and data into broader subject categories without losing the detail you've created. All sport sub-articles would have a uniform format. My thought is the reader that lands on Master athletics and clicks progressively through topics for history the sports and record holders which makes it a compelling story for the curious. Readers that click "Random Page" should land on encyclopedic article with basic notability justifications, more than a stub or random table with no context. You've done the heavy lifting already, so this is about presentation. Do you mind consolidating as proposed above or have alternative view? Thoughts? --DHeyward (talk) 04:36, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. I see no value. I'll ask, what can be accomplished by consolidating these "small" list articles into one large article that contains up to 14 similar lists? It means using # sectional links then requiring the user to pick information out of a more complex article instead of the much simpler direct link. What difference does it make? Do we have a standard for the size of our articles? Do we have a standard of the amount of content an article must have? I think not. We have a standard of notability. These lists document claimants to the world record at various points in time, so that certainly is not an issue. Achieving notability with little additional information is how we end up with small articles like David Oaks (athlete). Do we make stuff up to make the article large? No. On wikipedia we report what we can source. As I explained on your talk page, we have an existing pattern as to how these kinds of information are treated, We link the supporting progression articles as small links off of the main records page. There is nothing outlandish in duplicating our existing pattern. That is how users will find these support articles, these are not otherwise common phrases people will hit directly by accident. You yourself found this through the new article creation page as I created the articles. That path already no longer exists. So do I need to create some content to paste onto these articles to satisfy your need for size or substance. While I know a few of these stories, I think the appropriate place to put the stories are the athlete articles which are linked. I've created quite a few new athlete articles specifically in support of these progressions. I'm very cognizant of the linkage tree. Do we need to double that content and repeat it in the list articles in order to satisfy DHeyward's need to have a larger article? Do we need to write a public article describing the historical chaos that is the governing bodies involved? I just don't get what positive effect you hope to achieve. Good articles or Featured articles? Are you kidding? You can go stroke your ego after those kinds of illustrious awards, I'm just trying to present information and to capture the history of this portion of the sport before the original source goes down (the main source announced they are no longer updating the site last year). ~14 or ~28 articles focused with small organization for the specific subject, or consolidated it into one giant, slower to load, confusing article of the same information mixed with other similar information under headers. I doubt you'll save a few bytes in the process. Trackinfo (talk) 07:26, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
At Masters M35 shot put world record progression I gave you an example of the kind of prose that could be added. Obviously there is a lot more to be said there in a well documented story in this age group, than there will be for other age divisions involving athletes who do not yet have articles. The first part about the specification can be duplicated across all articles. Trackinfo (talk) 08:11, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
I think that prose would be an excellent section header intro for Master athletics shot put#M35 world record progression. All the common prose would be in the lead. The specific information in the section. The article would then have encyclopedic article value of a broad topic instead of being list of connected but disjoint pages - i.e. it fixes the WP:NOT problem. The current format is not encyclopedic in nature but rather a database of sorts. No information will be lost by collating and weaving the sports together and making a coherent article on the broader topic. Random stat factoid pages are not encyclopedic in nature. If the sources do go away, a collated article is much easier to keep than random pages and tables. Putting all the Masters athletics shot put progressions in a single article with text, intro and tables is much easier to read than a navigation list to stub of stats. --DHeyward (talk) 00:26, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
Speaking of NOT, DHeyward has not previously invoked WP:NOT and after numerous postings across several talk pages has not specified what is wrong with these pages that are in any way a violation of said policy. As with the previous groping probe to find a place to act as a repository, DHeyward is still searching for a problem to solve with his solution rather than the other way around. What is wrong with an article that focuses on a specific subject? These are a list. What will be added (other than confusion) by adding all these lists together in one article? As for maintaining the articles in the future, what will be maintained are mistakes and updates. Logically, the first place the update will go is the master page of records which these smaller articles are in support of. It is decidedly easier to go directly to the point of update (or error) on a smaller article, than to find it within a huge article or block of text. Part of the problem the world body World Masters Athletics has with their small volunteer committee is that they have to track 14 records across both genders in the 27 events they have assumed the mandate to keep record on (some 700 plus individual records) is it gets complex to track that information in bulk. They have typos and mistakes in their own listings, many of which these wikipedia listings have reported better than the source. How? By having it all posted now in event by event groups, easy to find and fix. While I have made a lot of the initial effort to get this onto wikipedia, I personally have learned more and have made more corrections based on the information from other users that this form of organization has encouraged. That's the positivity wikipedia brings by being a public source. The main article was greatly helped from essentially my original single table form when User:Kasper2006 came in more than two years ago and broke up the article into manageable, edit sized chunks. Certainly I'll maintain that pattern in a mass article, but by having more information in one place, you are obfuscating the capability to edit the information from members of the general public. That goes against the core principle that makes wikipedia work. Trackinfo (talk) 01:47, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Please see User:DHeyward/sandbox for example of consolidation. Please view the source as it's done through transclusion. No double placement of data so maintenance can still happen on the individual pages and will show up on transcluded page. I took two (M35 and M40) just to demonstrate but extending to the rest is easy. I also MOS's the references and lead of the individual articles. Translusion included the inline ref citations so articles can have different sources and stil lshow up properly in the reference list. --DHeyward (talk) 23:12, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

The consolidate page source is this:

__FORCETOC__
'''Master athletics shot put''' is a track and field sport within the domain of [[Masters athletics]].  Like other sports in Masters athletics, competition is restricted by age and gender.

==Masters M35 shot put world record progression==
{{#section:Masters M35 shot put world record progression|M35SHOTPUT}}

==Masters M40 shot put world record progression==
{{#section:Masters M40 shot put world record progression|M40SHOTPUT}}

==References==

{{Reflist}}

--DHeyward (talk) 23:26, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I see what you are building on your sandbox. If you feel having it all show as one conglomerated article somewhere, to steal a phrase "Have at it, Jack." It doesn't interfere with what I am advocating, which is a direct path to the specific information from the appropriate links. The more the merrier. Trackinfo (talk) 23:42, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
That was a compromise as you wished the separate articles. I think larger articles will have more context and easier to write. I can work around your method so as not to create duplicate work which no one wants. To make it flow more smoothly I have to rearrange some statements in the articles you have made but nothing is removed. --DHeyward (talk) 03:28, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Seeing the draft, I certainly agree that the single article works much better. It does provide better context, particularly in that the reader can see how certain athletes were record holders in multiple AG categories. That aspect is lost when there are multiple stubs. Location (talk) 03:36, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
The listing of the shot put masters records make quite a bit of sense as the lists themselves are not very extensive – I would oppose if the lists were longer, but most being ~10 or less entries long means these are very easily navigable when viewed on one page (TrackInfo's main objection). If an event has quite a few more records in each category then I don't think merging makes sense, but certainly that's not the case for shot put. I'm not sure about renaming these to "master's [event]" – that's a bit of a departure from our current approach (e.g. it's women's discus throw world record progression, not women's discus throw). SFB 10:46, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Just so you know, the demonstration is not complete. There are another ten age divisions (M45-M90) that would be expected to fit into that article if brought to completion. That would become a much longer and cumbersome article to both read and load. Trackinfo (talk) 17:44, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
I think we all realize that it would be longer, but I don't think it would be cumbersome to read or load. It is much more cumbersome to try to navigate from one AG record to another. Location (talk) 17:51, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Noted on the naming. I think "Masters" needs to be in the title so for this sp "Masters athletic men's discus throw world record progression" or if short enough, include both genders. Since these are also transclusions, and the main legwork is being done by trackinfo, I don't want to get in the way. Both articles can exist using the same source data with transclusion. At some point, categories will need to be sorted but that's a different time dicussion. I will fill out the mens page, check length and go live. --DHeyward (talk) 18:00, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Pluralize. Masters athletics. Also, to fit with Location's suggestion, we could put a link back to the new article, but probably as an EL outside of the transclusion zone. Trackinfo (talk) 21:20, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── tnx Trackinfo :) --Kasper2006 (talk) 17:42, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

IAAF profiles[edit]

For a few days at least now, I've been unable to view the tabs "personal bests", "progression" etc. of athletes' profiles on the IAAF website. I know the project has had problems with the site before, but I just wanted to ask here, centrally, to check it isn't a problem at my end (i.e. browser issues). Are other members having problems accessing details? Jared Preston (talk) 21:41, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Just checked, didn't run into any problems. Sideways713 (talk) 12:08, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
OK. Having checked myself with IE, I now know the results just don't show in Firefox. So it is a browser issue; annoying problem. Jared Preston (talk) 13:52, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
If you can't get to the IAAF site, or get to the wrong place, that is a problem from the wikipedia side--a garbled link. If you get to the right place and IAAF doesn't work properly, that could be your browser or possibly an IAAF coding problem. Trackinfo (talk) 18:39, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Aliyah Johnson[edit]

Hello athletics experts. This article was submitted some time ago; I decided to keep it a while and see what would happen this season. Here are some things I found: [2] [3] [4]

Is it time to let this one go? Or should it be kept and improved? —Anne Delong (talk) 22:11, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Hm... I see that Trackinfo has been improving it, so it won't be deleted at this time. —Anne Delong (talk) 01:58, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Trackinfo, let me know if you think it's ready for mainspace. I saw the comment you left on the page. AfC works differently from AfD; because the pages are submitted by active editors asking for a review, the reviewers don't nominate the declined pages for deletion, but instead ask the page creators to make improvements, such as adding sources or removing promotional language. With over 2,000 pages in the queue, the few regular reviewers don't have time to improve them all themselves. Imagine if there were 300 or so AfD's listed every day, and thousands of discussions going on at one time! This works fine as long as the editors keep resubmitting, but some just lose interest, and the pages end up in the "abandoned" category, which I and several other editors look through for possibly useful material, such as this one. —Anne Delong (talk) 10:24, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Relevant Rfc at Talk:Sportsperson[edit]

The following has been proposed:

SportspersonAthlete – The content of sportspersonathlete; the content at athleteathlete (disambiguation)

-Location (talk) 06:23, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Apparently they took a consensus of the minority who participated in this discussion to think that (athlete) that we use for common disambiguation should be changed. @BD2412: has wholesale changed a swath of our disambiguated articles to more creative, more specific, longer names. Mike Powell (athlete) has become Mike Powell (long jumper), Kevin Young (athlete) has become Kevin Young (hurdler). As world record holders for the last two decades, I'd think these people would be treated more as celebrities but instead of having a primary position in the naming hierarchy, they are moved a further rung down the ladder. Personally, all these more specific disambiguations are going to be significantly harder for my small brain to be able to remember as I constantly refer to them. I've had enough trouble remembering one oddball we've had for years, the misnamed James Robinson (distance runner). My apologies, James is a far less significant athlete, who comes up less often in prose. On the other side of the pond, Andy Turner (athlete) became Andy Turner (track and field athlete). The remark was this is uncontroversial. It really bothers me. Anybody else? Trackinfo (talk) 19:15, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Trackinfo, Location A lot actually. An IP requested many to be moved and they all were. See this old dif. NickGibson3900 Talk Sign my Guestbook Contributions 07:30, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
NickGibson3900 My point exactly. One request from an IP, termed "uncontroversial" on an obscure noticeboard, and with no notice to the affected Wikiprojects, suddenly we find a couple dozen of our articles renamed. Hey, maybe I'm wrong and the other members of this project might like the idea. I think it sucks. It is out of our naming convention, unwritten as that policy is. Geez, do we have to formalize everything, to build more constraining structure here? The point is, in a secret back room, with no discussion from involved parties, a major change was made that will have us chasing strange names every time we mention these people, some of whom are the major figures in our world. That concept stinks. We shouldn't do this stuff in secret. Personally, I'm "watching" over 5,000 articles, including most major notice boards, playing defense trying to catch stupid things. The system should be much more proactive and should seek comment from knowledgeable parties before just acting on the advice of one IP. Trackinfo (talk) 08:05, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
There doesn't appear to have been any discussion on this subject here, and like Trackinfo, I am uncomfortable about the changes. I'm involved in many para-sport articles and I've already waded into Mateusz Michalski (athlete) being switched to Mateusz Michalski (parathlete). Parathlete isn't even a word. Now I've seen Aled Davies (athlete) being moved to Aled Davies (throwing events). That is a really jarring description of the athlete. Can we put the breaks on this before too many articles are incorrectly moved? FruitMonkey (talk) 13:26, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
"parathlete" is most certainly a word (USA)(India)(Bermuda) , and it isn't restricted to U.S. English, as Commonwealth English also uses it.
As this discussion is about the difference between "sportsperson" and "athlete", this should be occurring at WT:SPORTS
WP:RM itself is a well-attended noticeboard, and centralized discussion area for all move requests. The move requests are in line with the unopposed move at talk:sportsperson. Discussion there indicated that this would be uncontroversial, per discussion at the move request.
The move for sportsperson to athlete had notice was given to WT:SPORTS, so it was given to a well attended noticeboard.
-- 65.94.169.222 (talk) 09:09, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I commented at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Sports#Athlete. We need more comments from others who understand the question. Trackinfo (talk) 23:49, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Wheelchair racing[edit]

Are there any articles about that here? Plans? --KhalidAliHaji (talk) 15:36, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Little Athletics[edit]

Could a few Athletics editors please comment on this GA's peer review. Review page: Wikipedia:Peer review/Little Athletics/archive1. Thanks -- NickGibson3900 Talk 06:43, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

2012 Olympic trials[edit]

I am wondering if there should be an article titled 2012 United States Olympic Trials (marathon) or if the results of that should be incorporated into a sub-section of 2012 United States Olympic Trials (track and field) or some other article. Thanks! - Location (talk) 15:33, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

While it is a separate race on a different date in a different location, I think it all fits together with the T&F trials. its for the same purpose. Trackinfo (talk) 17:12, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Years in athletics name[edit]

Hi all. The yearly articles for the sport as shown on {{Years in Athletics}} (e.g. 2014 in athletics (track and field)) are in need of a rename, given that the main article name has changed some time ago. I propose 2014 in athletics (sport) in line with the main article. What do other people think?

On a related note, I've been cleaning up some of the remaining links to "Athletics (track and field)" and replacing these with more specific links to athletics (sport) or track and field as appropriate. Any help would be very welcome! (About 800 links still in mainspace). SFB 13:29, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal[edit]

Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Jenny Fletcher[edit]

Hello, athletics experts. Is this person a notable triathlete? Should the page be kept instead of being deleted as a stale draft? —Anne Delong (talk) 21:09, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

WP:NTRIATHLON and WP:NMODEL are the relevant guidelines; she does not currently pass them. It looks like it could be tagged {{Db-g13}}. - Location (talk) 00:49, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, Location. It's been deleted now. —Anne Delong (talk) 08:41, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

World Champs categories[edit]

Hi all - just a note to say I've completed the setup of national categories in Category:World Championships in Athletics athletes. These should be used where an athlete has represented that nation at the World Championships in Athletics (these are similar to how the Olympic categories work, such as Category:Olympic athletes (track and field) of the United States). Feel free to add the category on to suitable new additions, things your editing, or any existing articles. Cheers! SFB 00:27, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

For the Olympics we specify the year. Are we going to do that with World Championship categories? Trackinfo (talk) 06:54, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
@Trackinfo: I'd like to avoid doing that for two connected reasons. First, a not insignificant number of athletes have competed at many, many editions. It's actually quite common for an athlete's career to feature numerous times if (a) they are of a reasonable standard and (b) they don't come from the handful of countries with a competitive national scene. I dread to think of how overwhelming Venelina Veneva categories would look if these edition categories were created (let alone Susana Feitor!).
Second, the edition itself is actually not that important a factor to the athlete. What's the difference for Jesús Angel García if he competed in Daegu or Moscow? Unlike the less frequent Olympics, where appearances at certain games can be definitive for athletes, the World Championships events themselves don't tend to carry much importance. Consider Bolt Beijing vs. Gay Osaka – many people wouldn't even know what I was on about with the latter reference. I think the per-edition info would be better stored on nation articles like United States at the 2007 World Championships in Athletics, or even a potential List of athletes at the 2007 World Championships in Athletics article, rather than as a category link across thousands of pages. The point of categories is to connect related articles by something that is definitive to them. Does anyone need help navigating from David Bustos to Li Ling (shot putter)? I'm pretty sure I'm the first person ever to connect the two.
In comparison, the national level categories have the clear purpose of gathering people who have represented the same national team. In my opinion, these national categories should be navigation enough, alongside with Category:World Championships in Athletics medalists‎. SFB 18:34, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Request for Comment[edit]

There is a Request for Comment about "Chronological Summaries of the Olympics" and you're invited! Becky Sayles (talk) 07:33, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Draft:Leontia Kallenou[edit]

Hello, athletics experts! Is Draft:Leontia Kallenou suitable for inclusion in mainspace? --Cerebellum (talk) 16:21, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

The references needs to be formatted properly, but I think notability is sufficiently achieved via status as a national champion and record holder as well as an NCAA champion. My crystal ball reveals that she will be an Olympian in 2016. -Location (talk) 22:18, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Awesome, thank you! --Cerebellum (talk) 12:29, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Athletics/DYK[edit]

I saw that Wikipedia:WikiProject Athletics/DYK was a bit out of date. If you are aware of anything that needs to be added there, please do so! - Location (talk) 04:01, 16 December 2014 (UTC)