Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian rules football

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Ladders on articles[edit]

I've been looking through a lot of the local footy league articles, and the ladders are taking up a lot of space. I think I can expand on those with some research, but I think it would be an idea to create a sub page for the league and only leave the most recent ladder on the main article. What does the project think of this idea? Real Footy V9 (talk) 06:46, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

It's not really Wikipedia's place to report only the most recent ladder as a standard - that would be taking on the role of a news service, not an encyclopedia. I think with so many local leagues and differing levels of interest in each, it is difficult to set a one-size-fits-all standard approach. Aspirex (talk) 07:01, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
A news service? But isn't that no different to say for example 2014 AFL season with the results? It's natural for an encyclopedia to be updated and surely this would be nothing more than that? The most recent ladder could be applied to defunct leagues as well. Large amounts of info in ladders can be seen for instance in Hampden Football Netball League. Real Footy V9 (talk) 07:16, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
A ladder is interpretative and dynamic. A match result is a fact, and significant in terms of the AFL. So a ladder at the end of the year would reflect the 2014 season, but a running ladder is pretty meaningless. To note that the main namespace of enWP excludes the use of subpages. — billinghurst sDrewth 13:25, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Club Infoboxes[edit]

Someone has gone through all the club articles and has changed the infoboxes from (Infobox aus sport club) to (Infobox sport club). In doing this, the italic formatting around the club songs has changed to Quotes. The new headings are not really applicable to Australian Football. Emblem has become Nickname - Example: Essendon's Emblem is the Bombers, their nickname is the 'Dons. Nickname is generally an informal name, whereas Emblem is an official branding. Song has become Anthem - I have never hears a Club Song referred to as an "Anthem" Coach has become Head Coach - Club Coach would be a more common term, generally Head Coach is not used in Australian Football. Example: Mount Compass Football Club Screech1616 (talk) 09:05, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

  • apparently it was merged with a baseball/soccer infobox https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AInfobox_sport_club&diff=608995786&oldid=461574842, unmerging doesnt look possible Gnangarra 09:35, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Agree than an Australian English infobox is needed. Disagree with the comment about Emblem vs Nickname; both the formal Bombers and informal 'Dons are widely considered nicknames of the Essendon Football Club, and I'm perfectly comfortable leaving 'nickname' as an Australian English heading. Emblem has a more heraldic overtone – e.g. Carlton's emblem is the monogrammed CFC badge, but its nickname (formal and otherwise) is the Blues; East Perth's emblem is the crown, but its nickname is the Royals. Aspirex (talk) 11:26, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
      • No, we don't need separate templates for Australian English, any more than we do for UK or South African, Canadian or US English. Reducing template duplication lowers the workload for those who maintain them, and those who parse their content for Wikidata , DBpedia and other purposes. It standardises appearance to the benefit of our readers, facilitating easier comparison between article subjects. The template was merged with Infobox sport team (not "a baseball/soccer infobox"). If the terminology is major issue, switches or alternative parameters can be added to the current template,. It's a pity the issue wasn't raised in the above-linked discussion, which was widely advertised. I suggest further discussion would be more usefully located on the template's talk page. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:39, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
        • A pity? Who the hell's fault is that? I don't play in the template world, but the impact of the change on Australian football articles was obvious and serious to me. People making these changes need to research impacts everywhere before blaming those from other places for not liking them. They must never expect representatives of the areas affected to know about such discussions. HiLo48 (talk) 00:21, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
          • I agree, and the above-linked discussion doesn't appear to say anything about the Infobox aus sport club template in its heading, so I'm not sure I agree about the level of advertising. Nevertheless, my limited understanding is that if we were to update the template to give the option of Australian English headings, we would need to manually update every single article since the merging has defaulted to the US English headings. I think we, as a project, may need to work with Frietjes or Andy for the merge to be reverted and re-done with our needs included. Aspirex (talk) 07:11, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
            • Where was the notification to this project? Hack (talk) 08:23, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
              • from what I can tell is the Infobox aus sport club was rolled into Infobox sport club, within days of that happening, Infobox sport club was rolled into Infobox sports team via the discussion where no projects were notified and only one person commented... All we need is for someone to address the language issues. Gnangarra 08:31, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
  • If someone can fix the template issues, I'm happy to run through with AWB and fix the articles where necessary Gnangarra 08:40, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Just having a look at the template, the following changes should be made -
      • "coach" should have "coachtitle" added to specify a title other than head coach. Head coach is used in Aussie rules but there are a few variations.
      • "song" should be added.
      • "president" should have "presidenttitle" added to specify a title other other than president. This is to allow for titles like chairman (not really Aussie rules specific but is needed).
      • "ground" should be added.
    • Other suggestions are welcome. Hack (talk) 10:02, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
      • Agree with those - although it looks like 'Home Ground' may already be available for use. I'd add that "Titles" should have (for lack of a better parameter name) 'titletitle', so that the infobox can use the more specific 'Premierships'. Aspirex (talk) 10:51, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Also, what is with all the '' (ie to format italic) being changed to " (ie quotes). Was this done at the same time? Screech1616 (talk) 14:04, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Leaflet For Wikiproject Australian Rules Football At Wikimania 2014[edit]

Hi all,

My name is Adi Khajuria and I am helping out with Wikimania 2014 in London.

One of our initiatives is to create leaflets to increase the discoverability of various wikimedia projects, and showcase the breadth of activity within wikimedia. Any kind of project can have a physical paper leaflet designed - for free - as a tool to help recruit new contributors. These leaflets will be printed at Wikimania 2014, and the designs can be re-used in the future at other events and locations.

This is particularly aimed at highlighting less discoverable but successful projects, e.g:

• Active Wikiprojects: Wikiproject Medicine, WikiProject Video Games, Wikiproject Film

• Tech projects/Tools, which may be looking for either users or developers.

• Less known major projects: Wikinews, Wikidata, Wikivoyage, etc.

• Wiki Loves Parliaments, Wiki Loves Monuments, Wiki Loves ____

• Wikimedia thematic organisations, Wikiwomen’s Collaborative, The Signpost

For more information or to sign up for one for your project, go to:
Project leaflets
Adikhajuria (talk) 11:22, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Ern Saunders[edit]

Apologies for what is probably a minor question but while searching for something else, I found a ["archie smith" collingwood&searchLimits=l-state=Victoria|||l-decade=193 great article] on Richmond, circa 1933. Amongst the caricatures that we're no doubt sadly not able to use, there's a refernce to Ern Saunders, the Richmond head trainer who also helped Sir Donald Bradman, amongst others. On the top of the last column, the article states that Saunders spent two seasons (1897 & 1898) playing for Collingwood before moving to South Melbourne to play for three seasons. The article certainly makes it sound like he played senior football during that time but, as far as I can see, Ern Saunders never played senior football (although his son Richie Saunders did). Am I reading the article wrong? --Roisterer (talk) 07:08, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

I'd read it the same way as you. 4 likely answers:
  1. Old man pumping up his own tyres (oh to have lived in the pre-google days, hey kids, remember that time I kicked 4 for South in the wet at Bassendean!);
  2. He played 2nds and never played league (did they have 2nds back then?);
  3. He changed his name (but no Pie/SM player seems to fit the timeline on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_AFL/Debuts or the AFLtables pages like http://afltables.com/afl/stats/1897.html) or
  4. The AFL records are wrong and missed him.
I'd lean towards 1 or 2 as the most likely. As for using the caricatures - does the pre-1946 rule apply to sketches, or is that different to photos?
And you have to love that article "they are ruining the game", "too crowded", "Kicking up in the air and trusting to luck is not football!", "it's only crash football today, and most of its finer points are lost." Was this written in 1933 or 2013? The-Pope (talk) 00:49, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Essendon page[edit]

Yahoo to anyone who may be lurking. I briefly just tidied up the Essendon page to bring its structure more in line with other good international football club pages. Basically the structure is: History, club symbols, support, rivalries, organisation and finance, honours, current players and officials, match records and reserves. The page is still rubbish, but I feel its more appealing now.

The biggest change was by cutting the 'player awards' bit. Now this article is on the club, and the article becomes too lengthy when these are included. There's relevant sub-articles for these. Any objections? Aaroncrick TALK 22:34, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Agree that the article in general is a bit lengthy in general. I think the Essendon page is better than many others in terms of the balance of its history (i.e. it has a similar level of detail across most eras and isn't terribly recentist), but I think that detail is excessive in some places. I'm going to trim back the lead, which I think covers their movements in excessive detail. But I am a bit dubious about Jim Main's assessment of Essendon as an important or senior club in the 1870s; I've seen no contemporary references to Essendon as a senior club until 1878 – and in general I've found modern sources are quite poor at reflecting pre-VFL history. We can have this discussion in greater detail on the article's talk page. Aspirex (talk) 07:53, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Sydney Swans on the to do list[edit]

We're apparently missing two articles, Reuben Cooper and Tony Vigona. Apparently, Vigona doesn't qualify as He never actually played professionally at the top level - his article was initialy AFD'd, but was user deleted under CSD:H. Cooper, I'm having a hell of a time finding any refs on the guy - he only played for us twice, and according to Footywire, he only lasted a week. If we're going to get articles on these two up, I'm going to need some serious help to establish notability which will get them in. Any takers to give me a hand? Thanks! CharlieTheCabbie (talk) 21:53, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Vigona may qualify under the third criterion of WP:NAFL for his exploits in the NTFL but it's hard to tell without having access to contemporary media reports. Hack (talk) 01:21, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
That list of indigenous footballers is also very old, may not be complete or correct, or as you've found, might not be compliant with our current notability standards. The links earlier on the ToDo page to the players - separated into multiple season and single season players is more comprehensive as to what's left to do. The redlinks on the single season list, especially of the pre 1970s players, might end up being converted into mainly redirects to the club lists - ie List of Sydney Swans players, that are also still full of redlinks. Of course if there is someone notable either for play in other leagues, other sports or other life work on those lists they can still be created, and not redirected (I did one single VFL season player the other week who's in the Stawell Gift Hall of Fame). The-Pope (talk) 07:51, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
I've pruned the Indigenous to do list. It looks like most of the remaining names are 0-gamers who may not be notable. Hack (talk) 08:07, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

2013 AFL Draft[edit]

Hi all, it's been a while since I posted here, but I've recently been doing work on the 2013 AFL Draft page, mainly in terms of tidying up the tables and article in general. I was hoping I could get some input into whether you think the structure of the article works.

For example, I am not too convinced the "Changes by team" table is needed, however I have left it in for now. My goal is to perhaps get this list up to Featured List standard, so it would be great if anyone who has had experience in that process to give a few pointers. Ultimately, I would like this article to serve as a model for the related draft pages and improve our coverage of this topic.

Thanks, Allied45 (talk) 06:11, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree that the 'changes by team' table is a space-filler, particularly when there is only ten or twenty trades to sort through (plus it has a bad heading, as it refers to delisted and retiring players which aren't given in the table). I also think the excessive list at the bottom of the National Draft table, explaining the full journey of every draft pick, is superfluous. Aspirex (talk) 07:29, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Everything you wrote was my initial thoughts as well! Thanks for the feedback, Allied45 (talk) 12:17, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
The changes look great. I agree that the changes by team section isn't needed, maybe it belongs more in the 2014 AFL season article? I really like (and was probably the author) of the tracking of the draft picks, and think that pouring them as notes is a neat solution compared to having them in the table. I think the US sports do that with their pick trades. I'm not really a fan of the coloured cells, and hate having the key before the table - I want to see the content first, if I don't understand what something means, give me a hyperlink/popup or I'll look below the table to see what everything means. The-Pope (talk) 13:37, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Okay, so it seems that the changes section is out. Yes, I have seen the notes for draft picks on US sport lists as well, so I say we'll keep that for now at least. Using colour also seems pretty standard across most forms of lists, and I would think most people would find this helpful alongside text/symbols. I may have come up with a happy medium in regards to the key though - I've moved it to the right side of the table, so let me know what you think. Cheers, Allied45 (talk) 12:41, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
One last comment, the refs chosen are almost exclusively from afl.com.au. Many, especially those who work for other media, doubt the true independence of afl.com.au, and for avoidance of any doubt, I'd chuck in a few refs from Fairfax/News Corp/Yahoo/Ninemsn/ABC/Sportal/AAP etc just to vary it up a bit - especially as you're going to the hard work of adding archive links now, not just when they go dead in a few years time, which is a great idea, by the way. Regards, The-Pope (talk) 14:53, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

One game wonder - notability[edit]

I've come across a player called Andy Demetriou who was selected once for South Melbourne but didn't make it off the bench. Other than the cooincidence of having the same name as a slightly more successful footballer, he doesn't seem to have got a lot of coverage in reliable sources. Given he didn't really appear in an actual match, what do people think about his notability? Hack (talk) 05:54, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Looks notable to me, see for example this write up in the Sun. Should probably be created at Andy Demetriou (footballer born 1958) though, and have Andy Demetriou redirect to the former chief. On the general topic of one game wonders, some will be notable (any chance I get, I'll give Ken Hall (footballer) a plug), but for some where virtually no coverage exists it might be better off to just create them as redirects to the relevant "List of X Football Club players" article as The-Pope suggests above. Jenks24 (talk) 06:31, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I think he won a couple of flags with Port Melbourne, and I am fairly sure I saw an article about him (appraising him as a VFA player) in the Saturday Age some time during the early-to-mid-80s. Of players who've played only one or a couple of VFL/AFL games, I'd place Demetriou at least in the top 15-20% for notability on that basis. Aspirex (talk) 08:24, 30 July 2014 (UTC)