Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Belgium

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WikiProject Belgium (Rated NA-class)
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See also: Discussion du Projet Belgique (Français)

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Thanks, and happy editing!

User:Another Believer and User:OR drohowa

André Langrand-Dumonceau[edit]

Seems like an interesting figure, but not that many sources for him. Likely more in non-English sources. Would be nice if you could figure out how to link him so we can remove the orphan tag. I thought about linking him from Belgium in the long nineteenth century but I am not sure where would be a good part. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:55, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Added a link from Chemins de fer Orientaux . --Andreas Philopater (talk) 16:27, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Dutch/Belgian Dutch/Flemish[edit]

There seems to be an inconsistency in the language description for Belgian films where Dutch, Belgian Dutch or Flemish is the language used. A film can have more than one country and more than one language but even without this complication there seems to be an issue. It is possible that the issue also arises within topics other than films.

The language for Belgian films where Dutch/Belgian Dutch/Flemish is used is variously given as Dutch (most common), Flemish (sometimes) or Belgian Dutch (unusually).

Belgian films where Dutch/Belgian Dutch/Flemish is used may be within the Flemish-Language Category and/or in the Dutch-Language Category regardless of the language description used.

Where Belgian films using Dutch/Belgian Dutch/Flemish are listed as being nominated for awards I have only seen the language being given as Dutch. This may reflect the official nature of the nomination.

Leaving aside the case where Netherlands Dutch is actually being used and just considering Belgian films where the language is that used everyday within the relevant part of Belgium (presumably Flanders) would the Belgium Project expect to see the language always identified in the same way - rather than Dutch in some circumstances, Flemish in others?

If there is to be one language description how would the Belgian Project expect it to be given? An issue with just stating Dutch or Flemish without further explanation is that editiors are changing it back & forth in good faith.

The Film Project may have their view on this but I thought it worth raising it here first.

There may be an argument for re-organising the film categories so that it is possible to separate films in the Dutch language into Dutch & Belgian but the identifying language should probably be resolved before considering this.

JDE (A Visitor)188.164.224.203 (talk) 19:06, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for showing an interest. I hope the following examples help. I'm focusing on details in the infobox in the first instance - the text may describe the same information differently. From what I've seen I'm inclined towards "Language = Dutch (Flemish)" to be accurate and achieve consistency without inviting repeated re-edits.

Ad Fundum Based in University in Flanders: Film = Belgian; Language = Dutch; Categories = Dutch-Language Film & Flemish-Language Film

Frits and Freddy Film = Belgian; Language = Belgian Dutch; Categories = Flemish-Language Film

Janssens tegen Peeters Film = Belgian; Language = Flemish; Categories = Dutch-Language Film & Flemish-Language Film

The Broken Circle Breakdown is an example where the Language has been switched more than once between Dutch & Flemish.

JDE188.164.224.203 (talk) 22:01, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

  • Thanks, that does make the point a lot clearer. I'm no expert, I have to say, but my understanding is that the official language is Dutch, and the variants of Dutch spoken in Flanders are collectively called Flemish (or sometimes Belgian Dutch, but I think that falls foul of common language in English: as far as Google Books shows, it simply isn't used by English writers). I can see no reason to use "Dutch" for some films and "Flemish" or "Belgian Dutch" for others. We might go either way, but I agree that some consistency would be desirable. My own preference is to use "Dutch" for the language, since that is the official language, and there is no official "Flemish" standard. Of course, characters in films often don't speak standard forms of the language. Do you have any thoughts on whether to go with "the official language" (Dutch) or "the variants spoken in Flanders" (Flemish)? --Andreas Philopater (talk) 07:45, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
    • Within a film article language can be mentioned in three ways: it can be assigned to one or more language categories; it can have a language in an Infobox, and there can be some description in the text. As you say Dutch is the official language (& as far as I can tell the language given if a film is listed for an award or in competition) but the language actually used is probably the colloquial form, Flemish. I think 'Dutch' has to be at least part of the description, but for accuracy, clarity & to minimise re-editing I suggest it is reasonable to also reference the variant used, ie 'Flemish'. So without a strong lead from the Belgium or Film Projects I would go for "Language = Dutch (Flemish)". I'm inclined to trial this where current setting is "Language = Flemish" so that 'Dutch' is included but 'Flemish' not excluded. I'd also point to this discussion to make a 'final decision' more inclusive. JDE78.149.231.228 (talk) 14:28, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
      • The question belatedly occurs to me (it should always be the first question, really): what do the sources do? Is there, for example, any sort of Flemish Film Institute or suchlike that has any sort of consistent terminology? --Andreas Philopater (talk) 16:19, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
        • I've been looking without any success so far. JDE78.149.231.228 (talk) 17:51, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
  • The meaning of especially the term "Flemish" is an eternal problem. Dutch as spoken in Flanders can range from authentic dialects over "tussentaal" (what is commonly/colloquially spoken) to standard Dutch, and the line between these can be blurry. As for films, it's not often that the language is explicitly marked, but when it is, it's almost always "Nederlands" (Dutch), regardless of the variant(s) spoken. Most likely exactly because of the problem of defining when speech starts/stops being dialect/tussentaal/standard language. It's relevant to note though that the term "Vlaamse film" is very common (see e.g. [1]) to refer to films produced in Flanders and/or by Flemish producers and mostly in Dutch (again, Dutch being any of the aforementioned variants).
    Personally, I like the term Flemish to differentiate from "Netherlands Dutch" (since in the majority of cases "tussentaal" is spoken and this is otherwise not acknowledged), but encyclopedically we should probably list "Dutch" as the language spoken in the film. We can then give more information in the article when a certain dialect is used. And if we consistently use "Dutch", an idea is to then have a category "Flemish films" (subcategory of "Belgian films") rather than "Flemish-language films". SPQRobin (talk) 00:33, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
    • Thank you. I may have to be out of the discussion for a couple of days but will pick up your points then. JDE78.149.227.203 (talk) 13:43, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

As identified above a variety of factors (sources, being encyclopedic, common practise & practicality) point to language being Dutch. Fuller explanation is often given in individual articles and this can be encouraged. Restructuring of sub-categories also makes sense. I will start by pointing affected articles to this discussion and then continue systematically. Thanks again Andreas Philopater and SPQRobin. JDE2.97.32.172 (talk) 18:03, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

  • I have created a new section below (Language of Belgian Films) so that discussion over the approach and actually managing the process can be kept separate. JDE2.97.32.172 (talk) 19:47, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Unassessed Articles[edit]

Re: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Belgium-related_articles_by_quality. There is a backlog (ie more than 50) Unassessed Belgium-related articles. The count is currently 4775. I draw it to attention because I cannot see on the Project Page how assessment of these articles is listed as an identified activity. JDE188.164.224.203 (talk) 14:11, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Language of Belgian films[edit]

The purpose of this section is to outline an agreed approach to dealing with language in articles about specific films. Please keep any discussion about the approach separate by using the above section Dutch/Belgian Dutch/Flemish. An entry on the talk page of every relevant film should point contributors to this section. JDE2.97.32.172 (talk) 19:27, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Checklist:

  • Where Dutch or any variant of Dutch (including those that might be described as Flemish) are used within a film the infobox of the related article should show Language = Dutch.
  • Where available fuller explanation of language used should be given in the article.
  • Include in category Belgian films.
  • Include in category Dutch-language films.
  • [It is proposed that category Flemish-language films be superceded by category Flemish films (as a sub-category of Belgian films) at which time all films that are in both categories Belgian films and Dutch-language films will be included in the new category.]
  • Make an entry in talk page of article for relevant film pointing to this section:

The language of record where Dutch or variants of Dutch (including those that might be described as Flemish) is used has been discussed at the [WikiProject Belgium talk page] and an approach has been outlined there. Please don’t make changes to the Infobox language or the language categories of this film without checking the WikiProject Belgium talk page section Language of Belgian films. You may contribute to the discussion at the WikiProject Belgium talk page section Dutch/Belgian Dutch/Flemish. Details are not given here to allow for future change.

JDE2.97.32.172 (talk) 19:38, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

At 10.07.2015 the stats from Belgian film categories are:

Belgian films = 382

Belgian films & Flemish-language films = 15

Belgian films & Dutch-language films = 71

Belgian films & French-language films = 198

Belgian films with no language category = 103

JDE2.97.32.172 (talk) 19:40, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

I would just call it all Dutch; it's the official language according to the government and the constitution. Besides, you'd have to start splitting hairs to distinguish Dutch from "Flemish"; it's much more logical to just stick with 'Dutch' for everything. Oreo Priest talk 22:53, 11 July 2015 (UTC)