Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Birds

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Bird identification[edit]

Comments are welcome at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science#Can anyone identify this bird? (version of 00:44, 22 July 2014). Also, editors may wish to watchlist Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science for future questions.
Wavelength (talk) 00:54, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

It's a Dunnock. Said as much on the reference page. MeegsC (talk) 01:28, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Thank you.—Wavelength (talk) 01:32, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Has this image been uploaded to Commons? If so, where? Snowman (talk) 10:38, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
@Snowmanradio:, the user (Coat of Many Colours) is a regular on the reference page, and has said he plans to upload it. He wanted it IDed before he did so. Don't know if he already has, but you could certainly ask him directly. MeegsC (talk) 12:32, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
I was hoping that User:Wavelength is watching this discussion. Snowman (talk) 22:12, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, this talk page is on my watchlist.—Wavelength (talk) 22:42, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
The original discussion has been archived at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Science/2014 July 22#Can anyone identify this bird?, and I do not know whether the image has been uploaded to Commons.
Wavelength (talk) 16:22, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I see, it was User:Coat of Many Colours who took the picture. I am hoping that he is watching this discussion. Snowman (talk) 09:38, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

English name vs. Scientific name[edit]

It is possible to move these articles back to the English name or is anyone opposed? --Melly42 (talk) 22:14, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

  • I do not know much about these birds, but the person who moved the pages says that the scientific names are the most commonly used name in the edit summaries. If this is the case, then I would think that the scientific names would be kept. Snowman (talk) 22:10, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
The question is whether we should accept (adopt) the common names proposed by BirdLife/IUCN or not (all these names are published in a new BirdLife-Lynx checklist published by Lynx edicions this month) --Melly42 (talk) 17:24, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
WP birds uses IOC bird names unless there is a good reason not to, but WP Birds has had lower case bird names imposed on it. I have had a look at examples of some of the pages on the lynxeds website and it looks like lynxeds use capitalized names. Snowman (talk) 17:54, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Good argument about IOC naming convention, except in the case of Mew/Common Gull. Common Gull is now used here, even though the IOC standardizes on Mew Gull. The good reason it stays as Common? Not enough people wishing the name to change to the IOC standard.......doesn't sound like a good reason to me.......Pvmoutside (talk) 18:16, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
BirdLife has now its own taxonomic check-list which lists several more splits than the IOC list (based on Tobias et al Quantitative criteria for species delimitation, IBIS 2010) and it lists newly described extinct species which are (still) not included in the IOC list. Though Hodgen's waterhen is not a new species, and the common name is mentioned in several books about the extinct New Zealand avifauna (e.g. Worthy or Tennyson) --Melly42 (talk) 18:15, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I hate the idea of 9998 bird articles at common names and 2 at scientific names. Truth be told I'd be happy with them all at scientific names really.... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:19, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Umm…It's probably true that the scientific common names of these two particular species are more commonly used, because they are only known from fossils. —innotata 19:32, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
In case of the Bermuda flicker, yes (as it was described as new species in 2012 but even Olson used the common name in its scientific description, the same is for the Bermuda Hawk, the Bermuda saw-whet owl or the Bermuda Towhee). According Tribonyx hodgenorum we had several common names and scientific names, e.g. Rallus hodgeni, Gallinula hodgeni, Gallinula hodgenorum, and Tribonyx hodgenorum and common names are Hodgen's rail, Hodgen's moorhen, Hodgen's waterhen, Hodgens' waterhen or New Zealand Flightless Gallinule. As the epithet is referred to the Hodgen brothers (who owned the Pyramid Valley swamp) and not to a single person the correct spelling should be Hodgens' --Melly42 (talk) 21:12, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Most other articles about subfossil birds use "common" names (as in not their scientific names). Not sure why these should be different. FunkMonk (talk) 22:45, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
I think the same. Best example are the moas, see also recent literature like The Lost World of the Moa (Worthy & Holdaway), New Zealand's Extinct Birds (Gill & Martinson), Extinct Birds of New Zealand (Tennyson & Martinson), Extinct Birds (Hume & Walters), Holocene Extinctions (Turvey), Extinction & Biogeography of Tropical Pacific Birds (Steadman) where you can find all the common names of extinct birds that are only known by subfossil remains --Melly42 (talk) 04:36, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
It is slowly going silent in this discussion without a consensus. So what are you going to do: Will you move these articles or will it all remain unaffected? And if you will do the latter. What will we do with similar bird taxa which still have no article? Should they created with the scientific name with the common name as redirect? (similar to many rodent articles) --Melly42 (talk) 17:14, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
These are fossil species, and have no common names in any meaningful sense, certainly not under WP:COMMON. IOC or whoever can made up vernacular names for them (why? are they going to do that with all the dinosaurs, too?), but WP hasn't any reason to use those names.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  00:19, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
It is perhaps worth pointing out that the researchers who described these species also suggested the common names; it was not the IOC. And no, I don't think the IOC is planning to "do that will all the dinosaurs too". :) MeegsC (talk) 01:39, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
While the "vernacular names" may ahve been suggested, it takes looking at the usage in the literature to determine what name fills the outlines of wp:common best. With rare exceptions the binomial or trimonial is the more commonly used in writings about extinct taxa. Dinosaurs are a great example of the fact that binomials are NOT scary to the public unless they are made to be. I would be against moving of the extinct species simply due to the suggestion of a "vernaular" for it.--Kevmin § 02:12, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Agreed. If we can determine that a name is are more commonly used, we use it. Usually, that should be all we need to ask. @SMcCandlish: Errrr… some vernacular names for fossil species definitely are used, so they can fairly be called common names; as has been mentioned a few times before, these names were suggested by researchers in publications about them. Indeed, the vernacular names for the moa-nalo species (known only from fossils/subfossils; the name of the group is a neologism, because there was no native Hawaiian memory of these birds) seem to be more commonly used than the scientific names, and the Wikipedia articles on them currently are under the vernacular names. —innotata 05:02, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Okay @Kevmin: and @Innotata:, which literature do you suggest we check? And how? I've read elsewhere that "google searches" are not appropriate for determining usage, so what do you suggest? MeegsC (talk) 11:09, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Re: "some vernacular names for fossil species definitely are used" that may be true... but are they used more often than the scientific names are? The key to WP:COMMONNAME is the comparative frequency of useage. If a scientific name is used more often than a vernacular name... then the scientific name is actually the COMMONNAME. Blueboar (talk) 12:37, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
  • As an example of where common names are mainly used for subfossil birds in the recent literature, the entire extinct Mascarene bird fauna would be a good example. FunkMonk (talk) 13:22, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Another good example is the Chatham kaka. It has a common name but it has no scientific name yet (we have to be somewhat patient as the scientific description will be finally published in late August) --Melly42 (talk) 17:36, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Well, I just did a few literature searches — using various elements of Google, since no one has suggested any other way of looking. If I search the term Tribonyx hodgenorum, I get 139 total hits (excluding Wikipedia and mirror sites): 2 if I restrict it to (non-Wikipedia) books only, 1 if I do a Google Scholar search. If I search the term "Hodgen's waterhen", I get a total of 625 hits (excluding Wikipedia and mirror sites), 7 using the (non-Wikipedia) book search and 4 using the scholar search (2 more without the apostrophe). If we're serious about WP:COMMONNAME, then perhaps this article does belong at Hodgen's waterhen after all. Or is there some other literature search that should be done? MeegsC (talk) 20:22, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
A literature check: W. R. B Oliver: New Zealand Birds (1955): Rallus hodgeni, S. Dillon Ripley (1977): Rails of the World: Gallinulla hodgeni, Brian Gill & Paul Martinson: New Zealand's Extinct Birds (1992): Hodgen's waterhen, Extinct Birds of New Zealand (Tennyson & Martinson, 2006): Hodgens' waterhen, Extinct Birds (Hume & Walters, 2012): New Zealand Flightless Gallinule, Holocene Extinctions (Turvey, 2009): Hodgen's waterhen, Extinction & Biogeography of Tropical Pacific Birds (Steadman, 2006): Hodgen's moorhen, The Lost World of the Moa (Worthy & Holdaway, 2003): Hodgens' waterhen, HBW & Birdlife Illustrated Check-list (Collar & Del Hoyo, 2014): Hodgen's waterhen. Other check-lists like IOC, ebirds/Clements or H&M didn't list this taxon at all. -Melly42 (talk) 21:54, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
@Melly42:, did any of these references list the species in more than one way (i.e. scientific name and vernacular name)? Or were they all either/or? MeegsC (talk) 21:59, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
As I have written above there were various scientific names for this rail. Until recently the scientific names were Gallinula hodgeni or Gallinula hodgenorum (the latter is correct as this bird was named for two people). After Christides & Boles (2008) split Tribonyx from Gallinula the correct combination is now Tribonyx (see also the other native-hens which are in the genus). Apart from the first two references all other references list the vernacular and scientific name --Melly42 (talk) 22:14, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Caiques and play-fighting[edit]

I was just wondering if anyone had a source that mentioned *adult* Caiques regularly wrestling and play-fighting with each other, apparently just for fun. As far as I'm aware this is something that is unique to Caiques, and I wanted to mention that in the article - but I've been unable to find anything in writing to confirm this... Thanks. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 21:23, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Is it really play-fighting? Are you referring to birds in captivity or birds in the wild? As far as I am aware, caiques fight other parrot species as well, at least in captivity. They can be aggressive and I am not convinced that the term "play-fighting" is adequate here, although I can not say that they do not "play-fight" between themselves at times as juveniles. As far as I am aware, a lot of parrot species are very territorial, at least in the breeding season, and will readily go into fierce battle to defend their nests. I think that some parrots have calls of submission, when they want a fight to stop and indicate that they have lost. Perhaps, some of the fighting is about the serious business of establishing dominance or pecking order, but I am only guessing. Snowman (talk) 21:59, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
If you look up 'Caique wrestling' on Youtube, there are loads of examples (e.g. this) of adult Caiques wrestling. Just rolling around on the ground and grappling in a very 'unbirdlike' manner. I'm not sure of the purpose of it, but there doesn't seem to be any real aggression there. It appears to be play to me. I have never seen any other adult birds behaving like this - and certainly no parrots. Birds usually hate anything that messes up their plumage, but in this case they seem to enjoy scuffling. I suppose that it could be a function of captivity, but I wouldn't know about that... --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 22:45, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Interesting video. I agree this does not appear to be aggression - both birds have plenty of opportunity to escape but do not, and there is no wing-flapping which would be expected if this was aggression. Play, especially in adult animals, is often thought of as a "luxury" behaviour, i.e. it is only performed when an animal has the time available to do this. Captive animals do not have to hunt, find water, remain vigilant, etc so they tend to have more time available for luxury behaviours. Play is often a way of non-aggressively determining dominance. Dogs, for example, will often perform a "play-bow" (this is a metacommunication which effectively says "anything I do from now on is play") and then perform tug-of-war with a rope. The dogs are assessing each others strength but in a non-aggressive way. I have seen similar wrestling behaviour before between Keas in a zoo. Interestingly, Keas are also parrots. When I saw this, the activity seemed to be focussed on a stick, rather like the toy in video. Perhaps this behaviour is related to "ownership" of a resource?__DrChrissy (talk) 09:55, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
The narrator in the video that User Kurt Shaped Box linked says that the two Caiques are about 18 months old. These are not of breeding age, as far as I am aware. I would guess that they become of breeding age at about 4 to 6 years old. These are juvenile or sub-adult Caigues play fighting. Another YouTube video is titled "Baby Caique Playtime". Hence, the YouTube vidoes that I have seen are not proof that adult caiques playfight. The playfighting between these young birds could be to improve there co-ordination and fighting in a safe environment. I would guess that adult parrots do not waist time with pointless playfighting. Snowman (talk) 11:05, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Most adult animals do show activities that might be described as play, although it is at a much reduced frequency and duration compared with juveniles. The point made above about potential damage to the birds' feathers also applies to bones. Bird's bones are extremely weak if they are exposed to forces in a direction different to that for which they have evolved. I thought it was rather curious the way the birds in the video kept their wings folded, until I thought of the potential for injury. By the way, I forgot to mention the Kea is a burrowing parrot - perhaps it too has evolved a skeletal structure which allows this play-fighting.__DrChrissy (talk) 12:32, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
For some reason, I thought that breeding age in Caiques was about 18 months or so. According to this, it's actually 2-3 years, so yeah - the birds in the video are subadults. In this vid however, one of the Caiques is a youngster, but one is 3 1/2 years old. Just as a matter of interest, have either of you ever seen Caiques 'surfing'? It's one of their characteristic behaviours. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 20:53, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
The website birdchannel says that they breed at age 5 years. Snowman (talk) 21:34, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
It actually says "Although caiques are physically capable of breeding at about 2 years of age, many should not or will not until they are about 5 years old". says "Caiques usually reach sexual maturity between two and three years of age". Honestly, considering that they're small birds, I thought that it would be a lot younger than that. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 22:59, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Parrots are generally long-lived birds, and they have to compete for nest sites, so a delayed age of maturity might theoretically be beneficial to them to be able to have time to prepare for territorial battles with their elders as well as other cavity-nesting bird species. I would guess that strong and experienced birds are the ones that can takeover a territory and then successfully defend a nest and a territory. The Spix's Macaws that are currently in captivity do not breed until they are about 10 years old, as far as I understand. I think that what is lacking with the hypothesis that adult caiques play-fight is reliable evidence of their age of maturity and reliable evidence of adult caiques play-fighting. I am also not clear with is meant by maturity in some websites. Does maturity mean that they have the appearance of adults or does it mean that they are mature both physically and behaviorally. Snowman (talk) 19:45, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
In light of the discussion here and the lack of available sources, I think that it's probably best not to mention the play-fighting in the article. Thanks for your input, fellas. Caiques do seem to be very robust and physically strong birds (for their size) - I have heard it mentioned before (by pet owners) that their legs are large, thick and very muscular, again for their size. I'm not sure how well this species has been studied in the wild and what its habits normally are, but I do know that in captivity they are considered very good climbers and walkers - but quite weak fliers. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 22:32, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
The leg ring size for a caique is one size bigger than for Senegal Parrot. Senegal Parrots are generally a bit smaller than Caique. I am struggling to judge the proportions exactly, but I would guess that the legs of a Caique are comparative to those of other parrots considering the overall dimensions of the birds. I am not sure what is meant by caiques are "weak fliers". Of course, they are not made for a "life in the air" like gulls and turns. Also, I am not sure what is meant by they are "good climbers and walkers". However, I have heard that caiques like water and bathe regularly and that they like to eat a lot of fruit. Snowman (talk) 09:34, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
I am not sure this should be dropped from the article completely. If there are several examples of this on You-Tube and pehaps mentions on web-pages, could there not be a statement in the article (with an example You-Tube video) such as "These birds sometimes peform a behaviour unusual for avian species in which they roll over on their backs in apparent play - sometimes called "wrestling" " . This avoids any mention of age, captivity and attribution of any motivation. I think animal behaviour is one of those subject-areas where the WP policy of not allowing YouTube as evidence, needs to be relaxed. So long as the video has not been doctored, then the behaviour has occurred. It is the text associated with the video that causes the problems of robustness, not the video itself.__DrChrissy (talk) 09:45, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

(outdent!)Okay, Chrissy - I used your wording and added a line or two to the Caique article. Just a simple mention that the behaviour occurs and that videos showing the behaviour have been placed online. I didn't actually realize until now just what a poor state this article is in. Over half of it consists of unreferenced avicultural anecdotes. I don't see anything terribly 'wrong' as such (AFAIK) with the info, but it does need a lot of work... --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 20:44, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi. Just read the article (for the first time). Your wording looks fine, but I agree with you about the general poor quality of the article. It is in desperate need of more references!__DrChrissy (talk) 11:12, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Revisions and WP:BIRDCON[edit]

Recently, I have been systematically checking the contents of Category:Passeriformes and revising letter case in harmony with WP:BIRDCON. I have either skipped the following, or had some sort of difficulty with them, so members of WP:BIRDS might wish to check them.

Apart from those, I have checked everything in Category:Passerida except Category:Passeroidea and Category:Sylvioidea and Category:Nectariniidae and Category:Troglodytidae. Apart from those, I have checked everything in Category:Passeri except Category:Corvida and Category:Passeri stubs. Apart from those, I have checked everything in Category:Passeriformes except Category:Tyranni and Category:Passerine stubs. I am relying on the colors of links to avoid re-checking pages that I have already visited. I am reporting these things now, because I am organizing my records at the end of the month of July.
Wavelength (talk) 03:15, 1 August 2014 (UTC) and 04:29, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
Here is a link to a record of my recent contributions (1000 from June 27 to August 1).
Wavelength (talk) 13:50, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

So, how does it feel to destroy the work of the experts that now have left because of the Cap Warriors? Why don't you go away and destroy the work of other peoples? (talk) 02:45, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
Okay, anonymous IP, that's enough vitriol — you've been posting regularly and we all know how frustrated you are. And many of us sympathize. But your continued prodding isn't helping with anything — it's not making those of us who are still here feel any better, and it certainly isn't fair to level criticism at those (very) few editors who are trying to help clean up the mess left by the recent RFC. At least Wavelength is trying to help make the articles consistent, which is more than I can say for many of the RFC voters who "cared" so much about inconsistencies. MeegsC (talk) 11:25, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

In the first half of August 2014, I checked everything in Category:Nectariniidae and everything in Category:Troglodytidae. I am hesitant about starting the very large categories Category:Passeroidea and Category:Sylvioidea. Also, I am awaiting a decision regarding the use of definite articles with animal names incorporating possessive forms of personal names. Please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Animals#Definite article or not (version of 16:45, 17 August 2014). Here is a link to a record of 500 contributions ending at the end of August 14, 2014.
Wavelength (talk) 18:44, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

@Wavelength:, I think you should probably be posting this information at User:Stfg/Sandbox4; that appears to be where most people who are downcasing articles are keeping track of their progress. For continuity's sake, it would be better to post there. MeegsC (talk) 18:58, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your advice.—Wavelength (talk) 19:08, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Tool using/intelligent gulls[edit]

Do you think that these two videos are worth mentioning in the gull article? Not really sure myself, because although the vids are interesting and show two very rare facets of gull behaviour, YouTube links are generally avoided. Exceptional enough content, maybe? --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 22:20, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

The use of bait by gulls is pretty well documented. Here's a book link for a ref. MeegsC (talk) 01:13, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
It's probably also enough to find some references about social learning ( and perhaps something about the (relatively) high intelligence level of the larids. I can see if I can find others if you need them. I'm guessing the YouTube links would be removed. MeegsC (talk) 01:31, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Please see my comments above in "Caiques and play-fighting" regarding the use of You-Tube videos. I realise they are discouraged according to WP Policy. However, if there are multiple independent examples, and these are not of trained animals (difficult to determine, I know), then WP articles on animal behaviour can be greatly enhanced in their interest and educational value by using them. I repeat, it is the text associated with the video that is usually the problem, not the video. Adhering to a scientific approach to the caption/description should also not be a problem with appropriate editing.__DrChrissy (talk) 12:15, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the replies. I was aware that bait fishing behaviour has been previously documented in gulls (and I gather that it's a rare behaviour). I believe that it's actually mentioned in some of the gull articles already. This is the first time I've ever seen in on video though. I really couldn't say whether the gull in the other video has been trained to open a tap or not. Another thing that YouTube has taught me is that there are a LOT of people who take in orphaned/lost gull chicks every year - and as a result I'll bet that there are more semi-tame, humanized, free-flying gulls ('tame hacked', I think the falconry term is) around the place than we realize. As intelligent and adaptable birds, I suppose that they can be trained quite readily, given the time, effort and a suitable opportunity. MeegsC's link about observational learning may also be very relevant in this case. I wonder if they copy human behaviour too? --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 19:52, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
I have finally got onto a PC that can process the videos. They are both really interesting. The gull that turns the water on could have learnt this by trial-and-error, but more likely learnt it with steps in observational learning such as local enhancement and stimulus enhancement. I'm not so sure these sorts of observations can tell us much about "intelligence" (whatever that means). There are several studies where insects have trained themselves to move switches to avoid electric shock, or to gain a resource such as food or water. Regarding the "fishing" video. There is one important aspect missing in the video - did the gull place the bait there? If not, this behaviour can simply be attributed to the gull learning that the fish congregate around the bread and that staying near the bread increases the probability of catching a fish. By the way, these fish look extremely large for the gull to be trying to catch.__DrChrissy (talk) 13:51, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
On the subject of using You-Tube videos, I was relatively recently editing Tool use by animals and I included the following. "Common ravens (Corvus corax) are one of only a few species who make their own toys. They have been observed breaking off twigs to play with socially.[1] At least one corvid has been filmed repeatedly sliding down a snowy roof while balancing on a coffee lid[2] and another playing with a table tennis ball in partnership with a dog.[3]- potentially both rare examples of tool use for the purposes of play."
  1. ^ Heinrich, B., (1999). Mind of the Raven: Investigations and Adventures with Wolf-Birds pp 282. New York: Cliff Street Books. ISBN 978-0-06-093063-9
  2. ^ Crowboarding on YouTube
  3. ^ Dog and corvid playing with a ball

Regardless of whether he placed it there, I think that it's quite significant that the gull didn't just eat the bread. No, he floated there and waited - because he'd rather have a fish. Gulls can actually swallow very large food items (the 'never swallow anything larger than your own head' rule doesn't apply to them!) - if you've ever seen a snake eating an egg, you'll get a general idea of what it looks like.

Yeah, I saw those crow videos before - crows are great, aren't they? :) There is actually another piece of interesting corvid behaviour that I've seen in connection to gulls. It's usually been magpies when I've seen it, but crows do it too. They'll sneak up on resting gulls and pull their tails. Or bite them on the backside. They do it repeatedly until the gull gets enraged. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 10:13, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it is significant that the Gull has learned to resist an immediate reward for a greater reward in the future. This is usually taken as an indication of higher cognitive function. Whether this is tool use is debatable and very much dependent on which definition is used. I was heavily involved in editing the article Tool use in animals and I was absolutely staggered at the number and variety of definitions. It seems some people were defining tool use to suit their own arguements, for example, many people seem reluctant to include nest building by birds.
Regarding the pecking of the tail. This sounds remarkably like a huge behavioural behavioural problem in commercial hens - Feather pecking. This often begins by pulling at tail feathers or pecking at the Uropygial gland. If you know of any videos of this, i would be interested to see them.__DrChrissy (talk) 10:40, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
I have certainly seen videos of this behaviour on YouTube before, but now that I go looking for them, I can't find anything. Take a look at a video of the same behaviour with a cat though. Imagine this, but the magpie snapping at the tail/wingfeathers of a Great Black-backed Gull, or outright pecking its ass. I suppose that it's for the purpose of annoying it enough to make it go somewhere else. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 15:19, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
You might be interested in Vampire finch...the pecking at the gulls might not be just to piss off the bird, but might be for food.__DrChrissy (talk) 16:00, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
I've seen people on the internet suggest that the crows might be trying to gather nesting material too, plucking feathers or fur. But that would seem to be a fairly risky way of going about it. We all know what a cat can do to a bird, but something like a GBB gull is VERY dangerous too. If you've ever seen a terrier-type dog with a rat, you'll get an idea of what large gulls are capable of when they get ahold of smaller animals. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 17:46, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

500+ video's of birds from the Netherlands recently uploaded[edit]

Spoonbill at sunset

Apologies for cross-posting, but someone pointed out this great platform to me and this content-donation to Wikimedia Commons seems to me very relevant to what you are doing. I have recently finished uploading over 500 video's of bird filmed in The Netherlands by a professional film producer. This is a donation made possible by the Foundation for Nature Footage (Stichting Natuurbeelden) and the Netherlands Institute for Sound and Vision. The collection contains beautiful and unique footage of different bird species, in a variety of landscapes displaying different types of behavior. The entire collection can be found in this category.

How can you help?

  • Some amazing work has already been done by the community of Wikimedia Commons, latin birdnames have been added as categories and the meta-data has been translated into English. It is now very easy to find the items and use them on the different language versions of Wikipedia.
  • Because the collection consists of raw, uncut shots, usage in articles on Wikipedia will often profit from the start-end functionality of the Wiki-syntax. E.g. "[[File:Filename|thumb|300px|start=5|end=12]]" will start a certain file at 5 seconds and will end it at 12.
  • For bird-enthousiasts that don't have a lot of experience in editing articles on Wikipedia, I made a brief ad-hoc tutorial on how to add a video from this category to an article. It can be found here, feel free to share.

Have fun browsing these videos and spread the word! Thanks. 85jesse (talk) 15:36, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

See also: FunkMonk (talk) 15:42, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks FunkMonk. Then allow me to elaborate a little bit: at present there are only 6 videos used on the English Wikipedia, another 580 are available! A tool has been developed that assists in getting an overview of the unused items in a category and suggestions to which articles to add them (thanks to Magnus Manske). A list of the unused video's can be found here. To get the suggestions for which article to use this press the "OR version" button and you will get the (unfortunately) Dutch Wikipedia article on that particular bird, on the far left the interwiki links to the other language-versions can be found. I hope this helps. Thanks again. 85jesse (talk) 16:53, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
I see that the categorization into species categories has already been done. I think that a list of these videos alongside species names would be useful, and I plan to do some listing of this series of videos probably on Commons (where capitalized bird names are used) in the Autumn using semi-automatic methods. Snowman (talk) 19:19, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

WP Birds template as seen on talk pages[edit]

Should the recent imposition of lower-case bird names be included in some way on talk pages, perhaps in the WP Birds template? Snowman (talk) 18:08, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to say something along the lines of "Bird names in these articles should remain lowercased, per a recent decision by the Wikipedia community." or something like that, with a link to the RFC. Otherwise, some well-meaning birder will undoubtedly uppercase something and get flamed in the process. MeegsC (talk) 18:20, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
I meant something like; "Use of lower case bird names was imposed on WP Birds against a consensus of active bird-page editors". Snowman (talk) 18:16, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Let's not flog a dead horse. —innotata 18:36, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
I don't think I'd do something like your suggestion, Snowman. But I do think we should let editors know the names should remain uncapitalized, in case (as with a recent change at Canada Goose) someone tries to uppercase them. We could either add it to the template, or to a hidden message that only appears if someone actually edits the page. MeegsC (talk) 18:45, 18 August 2014 (UTC)