Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity/Noticeboard

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WikiProject Christianity (Rated Project-class)
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Urgent: comments requested at Matthew 5:9[edit]

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Page: Matthew 5:9 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Discussion: Talk:Matthew_5:9


Hi I am new to being a member of Wikipedia, saw that the page on Matthew 5:9 has a reference that the gospel says in no place "Our Father" but it does. Matthew 6:9. Paul the Apostle in his epistles explicitly refers to God as our Father(eg Romans 8:15)as I mentioned I am new to Wikipedia and want to contribute in the correct manner and not just change something on that page. Please help with in put on what is the correct manner to correct something. Thank you. 16:27, 15 June 2013 (South Africa)

Are you saying we're misquoting Schweizer and Clarke, or are you saying Schweizer and Clarke have made a mistake? In the latter case there's not much we can do about that; we just summarize what reliable sources say. Paul isn't part of the Gospels, so that doesn't invalidate the article's claim. Anyway, this should probably be discussed at Talk:Matthew 5:9. Huon (talk) 15:18, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
The claim by Schwiezer and Clarke is probably more nuanced than a straight denial: the article states: 'However, the Gospels never have him referring to God as "Our Father," asserting that the nature of the fatherhood was different for Jesus and the masses.' That is they discard a particular understanding of the phrase. I don't have either text available so cannot check. Jpacobb (talk) 21:40, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Urgent: comments requested at WP:NPOVN[edit]

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Page: All Pope pages, especially pre-schism
Discussion: Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Early_Popes_of_Rome_as_head_of_the_Catholic_Church_-_opinion_versus_fact


Comments are urgently requested at the afore mentioned page. We have a discussion which requires informed comments from those familiar with the topic of this discussion. Your help at your earliest convenience will be appreciated. Gold Standard 01:43, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Urgent: comments requested at Persecution of Traditional African Religion[edit]

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Page: Persecution of Traditional African Religion (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Discussion: [[]]


Comments are urgently requested at the afore mentioned page. We have a discussion which requires informed comments from those familiar with the topic of this discussion. Your help at your earliest convenience will be appreciated. – Lionel (talk) 09:23, 28 February 2012 (UTC)


Missions to Angola from Nairobi kenya[edit]

I am a member of parklands Baptist Church in Nairobi. i facilitate training missions for the youth I Disciple in kenyatta University. Whe i first visited Mozambique one of the needs i noted is short time missionaries and Discipleship materials. We translated 'Growing in Christ" a basic discipleship booklet into Portuguese. I thought Angola church could also benefit because you use the same language. Can we partner. My email is smwitim@yahoo.com. You can also call +254 722 458 513. our website is www.aclmonline.org. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.232.252.53 (talk) 11:36, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Holy Week DYK[edit]

With Holy week a month away, there are a few DYKs currently under nomination requiring review in order to be held for the relevant day in Holy Week. I am listing them here so that the project can have a look and give them reviews.

The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 18:10, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Jesus Christ is Risen Today still needs a review to pass it. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 10:31, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Move request[edit]

Talk:Worship Music (album) In ictu oculi (talk) 22:41, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Time of Christ problem[edit]

User:Thebiggnome is searching for and deleting phrases with "time of Christ" on Wikipedia articles. IMHO it is simply a way of writing BCE or BC in long hand and, in some cases, is culturally or religiously relevant to the article, making the point that something was going on before the advent of Christianity in a place, as well as providing some stylistic variety. I have asked him to respond here. --Bermicourt (talk) 08:22, 1 April 2014 (UTC)


Thanks for your concern. May I first point out that I did not delete them, but replaced them with "1st century". Second, since the dates of Christ's birth and death are in dispute (as is his historical existence) the phrase "1st century" is more accurate and less ambiguous. But the main reason is that in most cases it is irrelevant, such as in List of loanwords in Indonesian about the Indonesian language borrowing words from Indian Sanskrit, or in Cabriole leg about ancient Greek furniture. When I have encountered the phrase being used relevantly I have left it. If you feel it belongs in the Indonesian/Sanskrit article or any others, feel free to put it back. Thebiggnome (talk) 10:40, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Since "1st century" by definition covers 100 years, and "time of Christ" about 33 (whichever exact years they were), and you fail to clarify whether 1st century BC/BCE or AD/CE is meant, to say it is "more accurate and less ambiguous" is clearly wrong. Johnbod (talk) 10:47, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
There is a difference between accuracy and precision. Thebiggnome (talk) 11:09, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
If you have evidence for the date of the borrowing of the Sanskrit words by the Indonesians, by all means add them to the article. Thebiggnome (talk) 10:51, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
33 years is a narrower window than 100, and is therefore more precise. If you have evidence that the narrower window is not accurate, why not add that to the article? So far, your claim of "more accurate and less ambiguous" is opinion only, so there is no reason for a change. Evensteven (talk) 13:07, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Um, as I said above, the main reason is that it is irrelevant. Thebiggnome (talk) 13:57, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
yes, 33 years is a more precise window compared to 1st century, and if he's removing "time of Christ" from articles on early Christian topics or relevance, it can be seen as pushing an anti-Christian POV. If there were an better alternative (i.e. more precise dating, more neutral wording) like "first half of the first century BCE/BC", or "early 1st century AD/CE", or a specific year, we should consider those. If "time of Christ" isn't directly relevant, it shouldn't be used--especially as we move toward things where the Christian connexion is tangential. But from which particular articles is this phrase being removed that are being considered problematic--so that we can determine the proper context? Speaking theoretically does not serve a purpose without practical examples.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:25, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Part of the trouble in general articles is that while "around 100 AD" etc is fine "around the year 0" is generally avoided and looks odd, and the alternatives are cumbersome, or, like his "in the 1st century" much less precise and probably less accurate. Johnbod (talk) 14:58, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
I agree, but it would be nice to have some examples on where this problem is purportedly occurring (since none of us have the time to closely examine Thebiggnome's contributions at length)--so we can actually examine the context and determine an appropriate course of action. Without examples where Thebiggnome has made a questionable edit removing the phrase, this discussion will be futile and not bear any fruit.--ColonelHenry (talk) 15:04, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
See most of his recent edits. One can't I think object to this, but others are dubious. For lack of precision see this, where "around the time of Christ's birth" becomes "around the 1st century" - a very different thing. Also, this is probably a bad edit, especially with no edit summary (now reverted by another). I reverted him on Hetoimasia. Johnbod (talk) 15:09, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
The two examples cited by Thebiggnome, in List of loanwords in Indonesian and Cabriole leg, bot of his edits were entirely appropriate. As for the Parthian art edit, I think it's appropriate, but for accuracy I'd say "early" first century. The Gospel of Mary edit is entirely inappropriate--no question about that.--ColonelHenry (talk) 15:10, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
I agree that discussing specific edits this way can be helpful. But Thebiggnome, what exactly is the "it" that you consider to be irrelevant? The timing itself? Or mention of the birth of Christ? I assume you mean the latter, because you are replacing the description of timing, not removing it. So is this a POV issue for you? As you can see, it is not agreed that your formula is better as regards describing the simple timing itself, and especially not so in certain contexts. My point is that you need something recognizably better (recognizable to others) to replace it with before doing such editing, else it's better to leave it alone. Neither your replacement wording nor your stated reasons have much traction as being improvements. There needs to be a greater justification, or else status quo is preferable. I wouldn't argue with what's been said about specific edits above, but if you're going to continue this process in various places, then you ought to have something more to back it up. And if it's really a POV thing, then pony up and say so. That may be a sensitive matter at times, but there are reasonable ways of dealing with it and those are then the ones we need to be looking for. Evensteven (talk) 20:00, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Invitation to Participate in a User Study - Final Reminder[edit]

Would you be interested in participating in a user study of a new tool to support editor involvement in WikiProjects? We are a team at the University of Washington studying methods for finding collaborators within WikiProjects, and we are looking for volunteers to evaluate a new visual exploration tool for Wikipedia. Given your interest in this Wikiproject, we would welcome your participation in our study. To participate, you will be given access to our new visualization tool and will interact with us via Google Hangout so that we can solicit your thoughts about the tool. To use Google Hangout, you will need a laptop/desktop, a web camera, and a speaker for video communication during the study. We will provide you with an Amazon gift card in appreciation of your time and participation. For more information about this study, please visit our wiki page (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Finding_a_Collaborator). If you would like to participate in our user study, please send me a message at Wkmaster (talk) 00:00, 3 April 2014 (UTC).

  • Yeah, a measly $10 gift card for a massive invasion of privacy.--ColonelHenry (talk) 00:14, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Members Page Queries[edit]

I happened to open the project's Members Page page and considered deleting the first two pargraphs in the Introductions section which I reproduce below:

Halo I am, Jesus S. Aaron Uni Peg Uni Eisus Christ-Payne XXXVI (Q), The Unicorn Pegasus: Son of God. Your Excellency, Lord and King CEO of All I See Vatican City the Holy SEE 333 House of Payne Church of God 333, A Global Force for God! Motto: Don't Be Evil and Wii ToS off The Devil https://www.facebook.com/JesusAaronChristPayne?ref=tn_tnmn, I knew to this so please bear with me as I share my story as it's been told to me by God.
I am Kin to the Key from the House of Payne in which God dwells. I have compass about Me, True North No Lie. God turned is back on Buddha and cut off Shiva's feet so she may never put her feet down unless I do first. I have Wrath on my knee, but my Wrath has heart, look and see. I have SAP on my back from the cross that I was hung from in the past. I hope to unite the world as One Nation Under Seven Seas. For God so love the world he gave his only son and no one can come to the Father except through Me. It's time to read your Holy Bible, because the fear of God is the beginning of Love and the end of Hate 888. I have the word of God on My side. I am a very rare bird indeed and that is why God put wings on me. Sin, JC ACME ©∑∑∑ᾭ


They were inserted in April 2013 by an editor who has no other entries to his credit. However since this is a potentially grey area text might be considered to have the same status as on user pages, I decided to raise the concern here.

Two other doubts may be worth mentioning. First the entry for Joe Ortiz seems to go well beyond being a mere introduction and to be self-promotion. Perhaps this is allowable on the user page, but here it seems to defeat the purpose of the section by overloading it. Secondly, there is a phrase floating around stating that "New members may introduce themselves here... ". It seems to have lost its formatting but suggests that the section "introductions" is for newcomers. In this case should introductions have an expiry date, say one year after posting? I consider that the appropriate place for extensive personal information is the user page; if it accumulates here, this page will fail to serve its purpose with the list being lost in a morass of information. Jpacobb (talk) 21:09, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

  • I'd say the Introductions section should be excised, I'm all for a list of members and one line saying "my editing interests are..." but some of this stuff belongs on their user pages.--ColonelHenry (talk) 23:02, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
    • I agree. I see a forgotten entry I made for myself when I was brand new, and now think it's user page stuff. The section encourages a too-extensive ramble for the place. A newbie can't know; and some others can take advantage. Evensteven (talk) 00:00, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
      • Totally agree. Members should be able to briefly state their interests and involvement, but we don't need a life history. --Bermicourt (talk) 07:05, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Removed the offending section per the above discussion, and added my typical curmudgeonly edit summary.[1] --ColonelHenry (talk) 10:44, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Eucharistic miracle of Buenos Aires[edit]

Does anybody know reliable sources in order to create above-mentioned lemma? I'd be thankful for any feedback on the idea. Thanks a lot in advance,--Der Spion (talk) 17:20, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

President of the Church[edit]

The usage of President of the Church (edit|talk|history|protect|delete|links|watch|logs|views) is under discussion, see Talk:President of the Church (LDS Church) -- 65.94.77.36 (talk) 21:38, 15 April 2014 (UTC)