Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Disambiguation

For discussion related to disambiguation on Wikipedia but not to the project, please see the Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation (general disambiguation) or the Manual of Style (specific style questions).

Disambiguation
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Wikipedia:WikiProject Disambiguation/Adopting disambiguation pages

• Updates of Wikipedia:WikiProject Disambiguation/Adopting disambiguation pages seem to be flagging. • Ling.Nut

Qajar

This used to be redirect to Qajar dynasty, but somene changed it to point to Kajars sometimes last month. I've changed it to point to Qacar because it's the same word, just varying English spellings. Now, the catch is that most links pointing to Qajar want to go to Qajar dynasty not to Kajars or the dab. I'm very busy with the crazy arbitration on Muhammad's images, so I won't have time fix those myself. Sorry for the inconvenience. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 17:52, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Is there some reason why the dynasty is no longer the primary topic for that title? Varying spellings can have different primary topics, and if there's no new consensus for changing from the old primary topic of "Qajar", the redirect should be restored. -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:20, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't object to restoring it as a redirect to the dynasty. I've just left a message to the editor who changed the redirect to the ethnic group. Xe didn't specify a reason (in the edit summary) when xe made that change. But xe hasn't edited since Dec 4 either, so I'm not certain we'll hear back soon. Perhaps just restoring the redirect to the dynasty while waiting for a response would be the most practical course of action. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 22:33, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Came across it during TWLTDP-patrolling and fixed it for the templates. Night of the Big Wind _talk 23:20, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. That still leaves the 250+ article links to be fixed... ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 23:55, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for the inconvenience. I redirected Qajar to Kajars just because the ethnic group is prior to the dynasty (as well as all related topics). By the way, I suggest to standardize the spelling of the name: the use of "Kajar" for the ethnic group, "Qajar" to the dynasty and "Qacar" for the disambiguation can be problematic. Perhaps the disambig page could be Qajar. Anyway, I can easily make the necessary changes on all links pointing to Qajar, if you agree about it. Cheers! Yone Fernandes (talk) 03:30, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I have no objection to swapping Qacar for Qajar, i.e. moving the actual disambiguation page to Qajar. The Qacar spelling seems non-existent in English, but is prevalent in Turkish sources. On the other hand, Kajar[s] is used in English sources to refer to the dynasty as well, just do a Google Books search. It appears to be an older English spelling. So, I don't agree that Kajar[s] mainly refers to the ethnic group. For clarity I'd prefer that Kajars be moved to Kajar people, like we have Arab people not Arabs as article title. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 15:54, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

The pages Fido and FIDO (disambiguation)

Please experienced project memebers have a look at the pages Fido and FIDO (disambiguation) as well as their corresponding discussion pages with an eye to improvement. Chrisrus (talk) 20:23, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I've clean up both pages. The discussion pages appear to have current discussions only on possible merger, not on clean up. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:46, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, thank you, but I was wondering if you'd join the discussion on the merger as well. Chrisrus (talk) 20:50, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Also, un-sorting them doesn't seem to make the one a user wants easier to find. Finally, why did you remove Mark 24 Mine aka "Fido" or "FIDO"? Chrisrus (talk) 21:09, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

No, I wouldn't join the discussion on the merger as well -- either arrangement will work in this case, so I have no preference. I didn't unsort them; I sorted the short list by the recommended order of entries. I removed the FIDO entry from the Fido page; if it is also known as Fido, it could be restored with that revision. -- JHunterJ (talk) 22:13, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

By "restored", I meant "restored", not "reverted". I've tagged the page for clean up, since you undid all of the WP:MOSDAB changes as well. -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:52, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Al Rosen (dab)

Al Rosen (disambiguation) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

This disambiguation page had a collection of distinguishing names. However, Boleyn thinks that it is not helpful. Does anybody think so? --George Ho (talk) 10:31, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Boleyn. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:46, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Pumps

I'd appreciate another set (or sets) of eyes on Pumps. A number of the entries there appear dubious at best, but I've already had my edits to the page reverted by another editor. --R'n'B (call me Russ) 18:05, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Avenue U

I'm mystified why this article is a disambiguation page. Can someone please explain? ScottyBerg (talk) 13:38, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

It looked more like a dab page before October 2011. I've removed the dab tag. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:51, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I thought maybe there was a reason for the dab tag. ScottyBerg (talk) 13:53, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Four Heavenly Kings (disambiguation)

This disambiguation has hidden references that may consume data. Must I remove them or leave them alone? --George Ho (talk) 18:29, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by "consume data", but the commented-out entries look like they may be deleted. -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:46, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Care to elaborate "may be deleted"? Does this imply: it is all right to remove them? --George Ho (talk) 18:54, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it is okay to remove them. -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:58, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Jefferson township

Hi,

Can someone from this project please check out Jefferson Township, South Dakota, Jefferson Township, Oklahoma and Jefferson Township, North Carolina, to name a couple. (More can be found at Special:PrefixIndex/Jefferson Township). A user has been creating separate dab pages for each US state's occurrences of Jefferson township and most of the listed articles are redlinks. I'm not sure how to proceed here. Merge all to Jefferson Township, maybe?

Thank you. ClaretAsh 10:04, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

This seems to be part of a long-established hierarchy of similar pages - see Jackson Township which has been in this format since before Jan 2008. Probably best left alone as a slightly WP:IAR set of partial disambiguations - some of the pages might be very long if all states were combined onto one dab page per township name. PamD 10:19, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. I'll leave it be. I expect the page creator intends to create the redlinked articles, or inspire others to do so. Thanks again. ClaretAsh 11:14, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

The red links should still be removed unless there's an appropriate blue link to add. But if the "X Township, Y" title is ambiguous, then agreed, the dab should exist. The "X Township" dab should also exist, and IMO point to all the individual articles, no to the other dabs, making it very long (with TOC) but better than ensuring a second click and second page load. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:01, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

@JHJ: are you saying that both Adams Township, Ohio and the listing at Adams_Township#Ohio should exist? (They have done, since 2007 or so). Or should one of them link/redirect to the other, to avoid duplicated listings which can so easily get updated inconsistently? Either way, before anyone launches in to a major cleanup or reorganisation of this (inconsistent) hierarchy, there should perhaps be some discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United States. PamD 13:40, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Maybe. If it's reasonable for a reader to look for either "Adams Township" or "Adams Township, Ohio", and if each of those is ambiguous, it is reasonable for each to be disambiguated, and separate disambiguation pages is one way to do this. Keeping them in sync is an editorial chore, but a necessary one over listing the disambiguation pages at Adams Township. I do not have any problem with having Adams Township, Ohio redirect to Adams Township#Ohio, however; the reader will also get where she is going just as quickly that way, minus a slightly longer pageload time. But having a disambiguation not include all of the ambiguous entries but instead part them out to other disambiguation pages seems like an editorial convenience at the expense of the reader, and I'd avoid it. -- JHunterJ (talk) 16:30, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

I think the state listings are just fine. No one types in X Township, State, looking for a township elsewhere. Most states have a List of STATE townships or List of townships in STATE that can be linked to provide a bluelink for redlinks. Though it should be noted that some states are unlikely to ever have articles for every township in the state. The list articles for these are a mostly unlinked list, and I don't think the townships for these should be linked on the disambiguation page either. older ≠ wiser 17:24, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

People who type in "X Township" also need to be served. The state listings are fine, but I'd suggest they should be duplicated on the base page as well, rather than linking to the state listings. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:11, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with this. older ≠ wiser 19:22, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Discussion at Colombiana (film)

A proposal has been made to move the above article to a new title and to move an associated disambiguation page at the same time. The discussion was started on December 29 and has been stalled for a few days now. If anyone is interested in expressing their thoughts on the matter, you're welcome and encouraged to do it at the article's talk page. Thanks! Big Bird (talk • contribs) 13:30, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

David Rose moves

Help from experienced disambiguators would be appreciated at Talk:David Rose#Premature move. --NSH001 (talk) 14:28, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I reverted the moves as contested. -- JHunterJ (talk) 15:50, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. --NSH001 (talk)

Disambiguation

Hello!

I would like a little bit of help regarding disambiguation pages. In case of Budapest there is a primary topic, and there is a separate disambiguation page. My question is, how can you disambiguate on the newly created pages (since the last major clean-up) without checking all the articles that link to the Budapest page? Thanks in advance--Istvánka (talk) 12:49, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

If I understand what you're asking, I'm not aware of any method other than by combing through list of articles that link to the Budapest page. that is one of the drawbacks of primary topics. older ≠ wiser 13:10, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

(ec) Hi, Istvánka. Unfortunately, there is no easy way for titles that have a primary topic. It's a trade off for that kind of verification vs. the benefit of placing an article (instead of a dab page) at the base name. We hope that at least some readers who reach a base name article that they weren't seeking will edit the page that linked them there. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:12, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

We assume that an editor will look on the target of his/her new link or, at least, is willing to think what s/he doing. But incorrect links are not uncommon, and we frequently resort to browsing Special:WhatLinksHere and fixing the crap, really. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 13:12, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! Then why do you endorse primary topics? It should be easier the maintenance if you disambiguate the primary topic too (Budapest(Hungary) for example).--Istvánka (talk) 13:13, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Primary topics are good for the reader, so we allow ease of maintenance to suffer for it. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:22, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

There are two strong arguments against it. First, it is not obvious, to which extent must Wikipedia disambiguate a topic to reach a full clarity in each particular case; another Budapest is Hungary could exist, isn't it? Second, due to grammatical features of English, it is very convenient to make links like [[term]], [[term]]s, [[verb]]ed etc. It looks much better and simplifies a wikicode maintenance rather than WP: piped links. But even in languages with complex inflexions and usually non-null nominative endings, such as Russian, titles are not disambiguated far beyond the necessary. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 13:40, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

The original post said: "how can you disambiguate on the newly created pages (since the last major clean-up)". I guess the idea was: If somebody went through WhatLinksHere on a known date and cleaned up wrong links, then is there a way to limit the work in a new cleanup? The ideal would be to limit WhatLinksHere to links added after a given date. Short of that, are there other available metods? For example a convenient tool to remember the already checked pages if the same editor makes both cleanups? PrimeHunter (talk) 15:58, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I think you'd only want to exclude pages that haven't been edited since the last cleanup. But even so, having some sort of date filter for what links here sounds like a potentially useful way to focus on pages with the highest probability of having mistaken links. older ≠ wiser 17:14, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Added after a given date? The pagelinks table does not have a timestamp field. Even if it had, it would be unclear how to date-sort entries in WhatLinksHere (by earliest link or by latest one), as multiple links with the same source and target are possible. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 17:57, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

You are most kind. We, on the Hungarian are trying to reach a consensus on whether we should use primary topics or not. The main argument against it usage is that it makes difficult the cleaning-up since every time all the linked articles have to be checked. That is why I asked the question, because it seems that on enwiki the primary topic is working fine. Do you buy any chance know some pages where I can find arguments for and against implementing this system. Thank you very much in advance.--Istvánka (talk) 17:28, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

General discussions of primary topic are most likely to be found here, and on WT:Disambiguation, and WT:MOSDAB, as well as the associated archives of those pages. I'd say very few on EN would support completely eliminating the use of primary topics. I think the disagreements are primarily in how to determine whether there is a primary topic or which of several candidates might be the primary topic for a term. older ≠ wiser 17:36, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

To give some background, hu.wikipedia uses a disambiguation system where primary topics also have a disambiguated title, and the base name is a redirect to the primary topic (with a special template so that bots can detect that links pointing there should be disambiguated). That way links to the primary topic need to be fixed only once, and readers still get most benefits of there being a primary topic, but the title of the main article can be awkward sometimes. There is a debate going on about this system, so it woould be interesting to know how other wikis deal with this problem. There are some 20.000 links to hu:Budapest; what do you do with disambig pages with a similarly large number of links to them, when there is a clear primary topic? Not disambiguate at all? Work through all the thousands of links again and again every few months? --Tgr (talk) 21:46, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Fifth Dimension

I could do with some help at Fifth Dimension with an editor who misunderstands how to use dab pages.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 19:37, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Use of dab as a mini-article

Is Immaculate Conception (disambiguation) a dab or an article? I am tired of arguing with a persistent sock puppet reincarnation, so help will be appreciated. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 21:24, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

It was corrected by R'n'B. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 22:31, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Project banners on dab talk pages

I've run into a dispute with User:NSH001 who thinks that disambiguation pages should better not have any talk pages at all [1] and if so he seems to think that a banner of WikiProject Disambiguation is the only valid tagging. Both concepts sound a bit strange to me regarding that there is a whole Category:Disambig-Class articles stemming from project banner templates. In my opinion it should not be prohibited for any WikiProject to place tags on disambiguation class talk pages if any topic listed there is of special interest for a project. Especially dab pages that exclusively contain links associated with one WikiProject should be allowed for tagging so they can be administered from time to time. De728631 (talk) 19:22, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Other projects may have reasons of their own for wanting to track disambiguation pages of interest to the project. I don't see how the banners cause any problems. I think the prospect of editors with no interest in a particular project enforcing unilateral decisions as to what is or is not of interest to the project is fraught with problems. older ≠ wiser 21:07, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

NSH001 has told me that there's been a tendency to keep disambiguation pages as minimal as possible [2] but while I can see the value of it for the article side, I don't see any problems with those pages having a talk page with multiple tags. De728631 (talk) 21:39, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Keeping disambiguation pages minimal has little or nothing to do the content of talk pages or with whether or not a particular project might have an interest in the page. older ≠ wiser 23:03, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I don't think it's possible to ban them completely, but they should be strongly discouraged. I only bothered to remove them on that particular page because it was obvious that they were added, in the first case, to an article page (not a dab page) and got left by default, and in the second case, having noticed the first, that it only applied to one entry on the page. There is really no reason why a project should be interested in a dab page unless all, or very nearly all, its entries relate to that project (this does not apply to the page in question), or there is some very special and particular reason why it matters to that project. The only purpose of a dab page is to help people navigate Wikipedia, a function that has nothing to do with projects except possibly in those cases I've mentioned. Please note, by the way, that the introduction here is not an accurate summary of what I wrote on De728631's talk page. --NSH001 (talk) 23:06, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Why should they be strongly discouraged? What business is it of yours which pages a project takes an interest in? The project tags on a talk page has no effect whatsoever on the disambiguation page itself. older ≠ wiser 23:12, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

I think I have found the relevant guideline: Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Guide. It says that "if a WikiProject says that an article is within their scope, then you may not force them to remove the banner. No editor may prohibit a group of editors from showing their interest in an article." I.e. you should not have removed the India and Middle-earth project tags from Talk:Mahal just because you think they are no longer valid as you said here. De728631 (talk) 23:20, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Baden disambiguation and primary topic

There is a discussion at Talk:Baden (disambiguation)#Requested move about whether the concept of primary topic should apply. The requested move would direct Baden to a disambiguation page, rather than to the country/province. --Bejnar (talk) 23:26, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Help on Phool

Hello! I want to request someone to create a disambiguation page for Phool. (Never done it myself. Hence asking here.) Phool (फूल) in Hindi language means "flower". There are two Bollywood films of this very title Phool (1945 film) and Phool (1993 film). A magazine of same title exists Phool (magazine). Also note that presently, "Phool" redirects to "Phool (magazine)". Two geographical places resemble the name; Phool Nagar and Phool Bagh. -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 13:13, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I took a shot at it. Shame that the word is not in wiktionary yet though. older ≠ wiser 13:28, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! Well... there is this entry फूल -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 09:45, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Blackout January 18th 05:00 UTC

As many of you know, English Wikipedia will be blacked out during January 18th 05:00 UTC - January 19th 05:00 UTC to protest SOPA and PIPA. As a result, editing via the API will be disabled (see here). This means, among other things, that there will be no Daily Disambig update on 18 January. There's basically nothing I can do about this. Some other bot tasks may also be affected. --R'n'B (call me Russ) 15:39, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Taiwan

Some people are of the opinion there is no clear primary topic and they want to move the island article to Taiwan (island) and the dab page to Taiwan. Now it gets funny: there is opposition not only from people that believe the island is the primary topic, but also from people that think that the ROC is the primary topic. But if there are these two opposing parties, there votes should neutralize each other, no? At least there is no majority for the island as the primary topic. Have a look at Talk:Taiwan (disambiguation)#Move request. Huayu-Huayu (talk) 13:58, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any guidelines for opposing parties' !votes cancelling each other out. IMO, if there's no consensus for a proposed change, there's no consensus for that proposed change. -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:22, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

You both seem to be assuming incorrectly that "consensus" on Wikipedia has something to do with the will of the majority. Wikipedia discussions are not votes and "consensus" is not determined by counting the views on either side. Instead, "consensus" is determined by some random uninvolved user coming along and subjectively determining which set of views he or she finds most persuasive. Thus, contrary to JHJ's apparent conclusion, there may indeed be a "consensus" in the scenario described above. Since the discussion hasn't closed yet, we can't say whether there will be a consensus or not. (I put the word "consensus" in quotation marks because, as should be obvious, the process described above does not in the slightest resemble consensus as that term is commonly used in the English language outside Wikipedia.) --R'n'B (call me Russ) 16:58, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't assuming that, no. If there's no WP:CONSENSUS for a proposed change, there's no WP:CONSENSUS for that proposed change. I have no idea how to make the leap from that tautology to anything to do with the will of the majority, and you'll note that I retermed his "vote" as "!vote" in my response above. Thus, contrary to RnB's apparent leap, if the "random" user comes along and determines a WP:CONSENSUS, then it is not true that there's no WP:CONSENSUS. -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:29, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Pardon me for misunderstanding you. I wasn't entirely sure what you meant, which is why I said "apparent." It seemed you might have been implying that the fact that various users had expressed opposing views as to the primary topic would necessarily lead to a conclusion of "no consensus." I now see that that was not the case, and thank you for clarifying. --R'n'B (call me Russ) 18:45, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

@JHJ - of course they cancel each other out, since 1/3 says A is primary, 1/3 B is primary and 1/3 no one is primary, then the page should be a dab page, since there is no "consensus" of what is primary. Huayu-Huayu (talk) 19:00, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

No, they don't automatically cancel each other out, because they aren't votes and this isn't a election of consensus (as R'n'B and I were in violent agreement on above). If there's WP:CONSENSUS for a change, change occurs. If there's no WP:CONSENSUS for a change, change doesn't occur. There have been proposals to make "base name dab" the default consensus any time that a change is discussed as if "base name dab" were the unchanged state no matter when the change is brought up, but as far as I know that interpretation hasn't been adopted (or resolved with the tautology that it would appear to contradict). -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:06, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

So, you think violation of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is fine? Since the discussion clearly shows that there is no "consensus" for the existence primary topic. Huayu-Huayu (talk) 19:11, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Hysterical. I'm as staunch a defender of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC as you're going to find. Your claim that !votes cancel out is misplaced; find another rationale. I haven't evaluated the discussion. Assuming there was a prior consensus (implicit or explicit), a new consensus will need to be formed to effect change. If there's no new consensus, there's no new consensus. If there's no consensus to change to "no primary topic", then there's no consensus to change to "no primary topic". If, OTOH, there's consensus that there's no primary topic (for the whatever rationale), then there's consensus that there's no primary topic. But you can't conclude that that consensus has been formed unless that consensus has been formed. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:24, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Clean up on The Entombment (disambiguation)

Another editor has tagged The Entombment (disambiguation) for cleanup, but with the generic clean up request. I was about to fix it to the project-specific one, but since it's my work they are objecting to, I've refrained. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:32, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Selective

I just converted Selective to a disambiguation page, but both trying to figure out what to include and trying to figure out good descriptions were a pain, so I'm sure someone else could improve it. TimBentley (talk) 19:32, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, TimBentley. I've removed some of those entries, that seem suited for other dabs ("selection", "selectivity") or were partial title matches. I'm not sure about the schools. For descriptions, if needed, I usually just copy the lead sentence from the article, but the descriptions there seem fine. The problem with adjectives in particular as ambiguous names is that very few topics are actually referred to by just the adjective. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:07, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I fixed six links that intended selective school (or the NSW variety), so it seems reasonable to leave that in. TimBentley (talk) 20:16, 25 January 2012 (UTC)