Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Formula One

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Renaults change in nationality[edit]

Should it be mentioned in the Renault in Formula One article that Renault in 2011 became the third constructor in the history of Formula One to change its nationality. (Shadow, Benetton, Renault) ~ Speedy Question Mark (talk) 4:01, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

The same scuderia with another name, or a new one?[edit]

The En.Wikipedia is the matrix for the other articles from other wikipedias, and the projects here are more active, which is why perhaps coming here directly could be better. I have no account in the wiki of my language, but I follow the articles and already contributed to many of them, and I intend to start a discussion that perhaps generates very profound changes in all of them, so I want to start it in the wiki where it all began.

Not just talking about Formula-1, but everywhere, companies can be sold at any time, but nobody says it ends, just because of the change of the owner. Companies can also change their name, and nobody says it ends just because their name has changed. In F-1, on the other hand, there is some confusion in this concept.

For example Footwork Arrows and Arrows Grand Prix International are or not the same team with different owners? And Minardi? The Minardi team was sold to Red Bull and changed its name to Scuderia Toro Rosso, or just sold the space available and the equipment instead of the institution?

This is relevant because in my opinion we should have a article for each institution, regardless of the name they had over time. On the other hand, also know that often, when we say in the jargon of F-1 that a team was "sold", it's not the staff, institution, pt:Pessoa jurídica, but only the structure of it.

But for this you need to set some objective criteria to know when the team finishes, and another comes in its place, or when it only changes its name. In Formula 1, various racing teams are sold and remain with the same name. Others are sold, and changes its name. In any case, the simple fact of being sold does not generate a new team. The change of owners does a team ceases to exist. I think that there should be an article for every company, not for each "name".

On the other hand, I doubt if all sales are actually selling the company, or merely selling the space in F-1. Look Renault F1 Team (2002–2010) redirect to Renault in Formula One. In Portuguese, pt:Renault F1 redirects for Lotus F1 Team. The two Renault are not the same scuderia, are they? Team Lotus (2010–11) is Caterham F1 with other name. In Portuguese Team Lotus redirect for Caterham F1 Team.

Lotus Renault is Renault? Lotus Renault is a team which existed for only one year? Or are current Lotus F1, that should not be confused with the old Team Lotus?

I don't know what should be the criterion, but it seems to me that independent of what it is, it should be a single criterion, which did not require a DISCUSSION everytime to made it good. I believe the best criterion would be to use Taxpayer Identification Number or other National identification number (in Brazil are the pt:CNPJ) or the equivalent register in each country of pt:junta comercial.

Depending on the progress of this discussion, I want to launch this discussion in Basqueteball Project in relation to "Franchises" that change of name and the host city, as New Orleans Pelicans, Charlotte Hornets e Charlotte Bobcats, because these articles are a mess.

Texto original em Português

A En.Wikipedia é a matriz para os outros artigos das outras wikipedias, e os projetos daqui são os mais ativos, razão pela qual talvez vir diretamente aqui seja o mais produtivo. Não tenho conta na wiki da minha língua, mas acompanho os artigos, ja contribuí com muitos deles, e a discussão que pretendo iniciar pode gerar uma modificação talvez muito profunda em todos eles, então quero iniciá-la na wiki onde tudo começou.

Não falando apenas a nível de F-1, mas a nível geral, uma empresa (qualquer uma) pode ser vendida a qualquer momento, e nem por isso se diz que ela acaba, por causa da mudança de dono. Empresas também podem mudar de nome, e nem por isso se diz que elas acabaram, porque o nome mudou. Na F-1, por outro lado, há uma certa confusão nesse conceito.

Por exemplo Footwork Arrows e a Arrows Grand Prix International são ou não a mesma equipe, com donos diferentes? E a Minardi? A Minardi foi vendida para a Red Bull e mudou de nome para Scuderia Toro Rosso, ou só venderam a vaga e os equipamentos, ao invés da instituição?

Isso tem relevância pois na minha opinião deveríamos ter um artigo para cada instituição, independentemente do nome que elas tiveram ao longo do tempo. Por outro lado, também sei que muitas vezes, quando se diz no jargão da F-1 que quando uma equipe foi "vendida", não foi a equipe, instituição, a pt:Pessoa jurídica, mas sim apenas a estrutura dela.

Mas para isso, é preciso definir algum critério objetivo para saber quando a equipe acaba, e surge outra em seu lugar, e quando ela apenas muda de nome. Na Formula 1, diversas escuderias são vendidas e permanecem com o mesmo nome. Outras, são vendidas, e mudam de nome. Em todo o caso, o simples fato de ser vendida não gera uma equipe nova. A mudança de donos não faz uma equipe deixar de existir. Penso que deve existir um artigo para cada empresa, não para cada "nome".

Por outro lado, tenho dúvidas se todas as vendas são realmente vendas da empresa, ou meras venda de vaga. Vejam Renault F1 Team (2002–2010) redireciona para Renault in Formula One. Em Português, pt:Renault F1 redireciona para Lotus F1 Team. As duas Renault não são a mesma empresa, são? Team Lotus (2010–11) nada mais é que a Caterham F1 com outro nome. Em Português Team Lotus redireciona para Caterham F1 Team.

Lotus Renault é a Renault? Lotus Renault é uma equipe que existiu por apenas um ano? Ou é a Lotus F1 atual, que não deve ser confundida com a antiga Team Lotus?

Não sei qual deve ser o critério, mas me parece que qualquer que seja, deveria ser um critério único, que não obrigasse essa mesma discusão a ser feita sempre. Acredito que o melhor critério seria usar o Taxpayer Identification Number ou outro National identification number (que no Brasil é o pt:CNPJ) ou o registro equivalente em cada país da pt:junta comercial.

Dependendo do andamento dessa discussão, eu quero lançar essa discussão no Projeto Basqueteball em relação às "franquias" que mudam de nome e cidade-sede, como New Orleans Pelicans, Charlotte Hornets e Charlotte Bobcats, pois estes artigos estão uma grande confusão. 187.74.206.156 (talk) 21:35, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

It's only a mess when viewed from a distance. Each team has been debated on its individual merits. There is no standard procedure, because each team's ownership life has been completely different.
By your reasoning for example, the Mercedes-Benz team is not related to Mercedes-Benz the manufacturer but is in fact a modern day Tyrrell painted silver.
The Renault of the 1990s purchased Benetton, who in turn purchased Toleman. Thus if you go back far enough Renault of the 1990s competed against itself, the factory Renault team of the 1980s.
You proposed an extremely simplistic method that tends not to have a bearing in real life.
Additionally the Formula One wikiproject has followed the lead of the Formula One organisation. How it groups team histories and statistics should not be ignored because you find ownership histories to be inconsistent. --Falcadore (talk) 23:21, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
I'm the user above. You said: "By your reasoning for example, the Mercedes-Benz team is not related to Mercedes-Benz the manufacturer but is in fact a modern day Tyrrell painted silver." No necessarily! For example, you also said "The Renault of the 1990s purchased Benetton", but my question is: purchased the structure (cars, mechanics, boxes, equipments) of Benetton or purchase the company (seat, actions, heritage, assets and liabilities, labor debts, trophies)... The statute of the company Benetton has changed and also their board as a formal sale, or what was sold was only her available space in Formula 1, so that other organization (scuderia, company) was created in its place? Imagine that we were writing the history of the company, not of the "franchise". Iank Peldeva 30All (talk) 18:00, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
The problem with your franchise argument is that in nearly all situations in which there are franchises, we are currently following the same rules. In the North American sports, when a franchise is moved, it is considered a new team. The same applies to European football – Wimbledon F.C. and Milton Keynes Dons F.C. are essentially the same franchise, but are considered completely different teams.
This is, of course, excluding one massive fundamental point – the teams are generally classed separately in record books. BAR and Tyrrell are never considered one and the same in record books (and nor are the following "franchises" Honda, Brawn and Mercedes). Brawn, for that matter, are considered to be the only team to have won both titles in their only year of competition. Continuing my point, nor are Jordan, Midland, Spyker or Force India. Nor are Minardi and Toro Rosso. Nor are Toleman, Benetton, Renault and Lotus (the current one). Nor even is Frank Williams Racing Cars and the current Williams team considered to be continuous (Williams last season celebrated their 600th race, a total that excludes their spell as FWRC).
The reason you are confusing this is because you are misunderstanding the buying of teams system. These days, F1 teams are not just F1 teams anymore, they are proper companies that have divisions comprising an F1 team. Tyrrell were bought by British American Tobacco's brand owners and named BAR. Now, while the same people may have operated there, the company was under different ownership. It basically was, for all intents and purposes, a new company that rather than build up its own team from scratch paid extra to have a ready-made system up and running.
So no, fundamentally your premise is incorrect. GyaroMaguus 20:45, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
Your example (Wimbledon F.C. / Milton Keynes Dons Football Club / AFC Wimbledon) is, in theory, exactly what I think it should always be done. Yes, same franchise, but are completely different teams (three differents clubs, three differents companies). However I saw that there is even an article Relocation of Wimbledon F.C. to Milton Keynes in which the notion of "relocation" is emphasized, when apparently there was not a reallocation, but a selling space. Maybe what I'm trying to discuss ever make sense in English-speaking context. Furthermore, I understand that in the case of the NBA, the current and the former Charlotte Hornets do not have any legal relationship with one another, only for commercial reasons the league agreed that the new club would incorporate the old statistics.
But, what I really wanted to know is if Tyrrel, Honda, Brawn, Mercedes, Jordan, Midland, Spyker, Force India, Toro Rosso and Minardi are, from business point of view, the same or different companies. Apparently, according to what you said, they are different companies. In Brazil, to verify if a company (Corporate personhood) is the same status and are registered notary, the pt:CNPJ (a type of ID for companies). I do not know what is the equivalent of the CNPJ other countries, such as USA, England, France, Germany, but something equivalent must exist.
See CR Vasco da Gama, the club disputing football championships, rowing and other sports. There is the article Club de Regatas Vasco da Gama (basketball), but only for editorial decision, because in fact the basketball team is part of the same club Vasco, the same legal entity. See also Rio de Janeiro Vôlei Clube, here on wiki-en is a single article for pt:Rio de Janeiro Vôlei Clube and pt:Paraná Vôlei Clube. The En-Wiki said classifies as "relocation", but pt-wiki shows that there was, in fact, the extinction of a club and creating another, and not the mere transfer of town. You can change a company town, but in the case of "Rexona-Ades" (fantasy teams name) this was not done. Would possible, in theory, the Paraná VC become a basketball or football club, while Rio de Janeiro occupied its place in volleyball league.
I'm looking for information on equivalent cases in Formula 1, just to separate the cases where a company name change, those in which another takes its place. Even without merging / splitting of items, they meet F-1/NBA statistics, but I think that at the least information about the companies should be included. If at least it can not be done here, perhaps in en-wiki this possible. And maybe the only way to know this for sure is through "CNPJ" (equivalent identification number in their countries) scuderias of, their respective legal personality. Iank Peldeva 30All (talk) 05:27, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
While might say they are the same entity from a business point of view, that is however, a point of view invented by yourself with no support from within the sport for your assertion. You say they are the same team and possibly should be combined, then let's see some references from reliable sources backing up your arguement. Failing that, this is crossing the line into either Original Research or a subjective point of view outside of NPOV. --Falcadore (talk) 07:09, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
The "business point of view" is largely irrelevant in terms of F1. As far as F1 is concerned, one team becomes extinct and another team is created, with the same people working but under a different name, different owner, different sponsorships, different investing, etc. Even from a business point of view, the teams are separate – Tyrrell, BAR, Honda, Brawn and Mercedes are all completely separate entities who transferred an asset (the F1 team) between themselves, transferring the workforce (a division of the company tied to the asset) across to the new employers; the same applies to all the other team changes. So there is no corporate personhood. The teams are all parts of larger companies. Ferrari, Mercedes, McLaren, Sauber, Lotus, Marussia and Caterham all make cars. Red Bull and Toro Rosso are basically adverts for the drink the company produces. Williams does stuff. Force India is basically owned by UB Group. See my point? I will go with WP:GOODFAITH in what you are trying to say, but you are not fully understanding the situation and your premise is incorrect. GyaroMaguus 10:49, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── We have typically named and separated articles based on the constructor name, which is the name the FIA credits all results to, regardless of the ownership or any structural changes to the team. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 10:55, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Save for the fact that we don't. The FIA considers Caterham F1 to be one an the same team as Lotus Racing (2010) and Team Lotus (2011). Yet, we have one article for the former team name and one for the latter two (which is in contradiction with our own philosophy, which would require separate articles for those two team names as well). They credit all the race starts made by the three of them to one an the same current team: Caterham!. Just look on page 41 of the source I have linked to. Marussia (page 40), as correctly pointed out, is credited as competing since 2012, Force India (page 36) since 2008, Sauber (page 37) since 1993 (although the 2006-2009 period isn't credited to them as their is no win in their statistics), Lotus (page 34) since 2010 and Mercedes (page 32) since 2010. Tony Fernandes himself has noted on several occasions that this is his team's fifth year in the sport. Even the Caterham article acknowledges it was nothing more than a formal name change. Therefore I think that the articles for Caterham F1 and Team Lotus (2010-11) should be merged into one article, since nobody, absolutely nobody, credites them as separate teams. In general I think Iank Peldeva 30All, has been missed. As far I can see, the suggestion is that there should be an article for the parent, legal, institution that "housed" al these teams in addition to the already existing team articles, not just to merge the existing articles. I think that is going to far. I think it is enough to have the different articles, like we have them, based on whom FIA credits the results to. That should be the general criterion whether or not to create a new article. Tvx1 (talk) 20:51, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
I am slightly intrigued as to how the current Lotus team started from 2010 (since it surely was actually 2012?) but I am fine with the Caterham/Lotus merger. Otherwise, I agree with the rest of Tvx1's words except that Lotus Racing (2010) and Team Lotus (2011) were both commonly referred to as just "Lotus", so we don't need multiple articles (we wouldn't create separate articles for WilliamsF1, Williams F1 and Williams Racing). GyaroMaguus 00:59, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
@Tvx1: The FIA media kit page for Caterham is internally inconsistent - it says "since 2010" but also says "45 Grand Prix", which equates to the number of races since the start of 2012. I also disagree with your statement that "nobody, absolutely nobody, credites them as separate teams" - both ChicaneF1 and StatsF1 show Caterham as debuting in 2012. There is also WP:ASTONISH to consider - I think many non-experts would be confused if they clicked on the word "Lotus" in 2011 Australian Grand Prix and it took them to an article titled "Caterham F1". Given the convoluted use of the name "Lotus" in Formula One, I think it's clearer to have a separate article for "Lotus Racing/Team Lotus 2010-11", provided that the article makes it clear that the team subsequently became known as Caterham F1 (which it does). DH85868993 (talk) 02:52, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
To answer Tvx1's question about the FIA's recognition of the team starting in 2010 and the statistics beginning in 2012 - could this be the difference between Team and Constructor? For statistical purposes the FIA generally groups by Constructor - where many different teams contributed to Brabham, Lotus, Cooper etc and for example Tyrrell Racing's statistics are split between Matra and Tyrrell? Therefore Caterham's statistics refer specifically specifically to Caterham the constructor not Caterham the team. --Falcadore (talk) 04:52, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
A perfect example of this is GP2 team Russian Time. An article for the team was created when the team was announced. Halfway through the 2013 season, it was merged into the Motopark Academy article, as they were running the team. But when team principal Igor Mazepa died, Russian Time and Motopark Academy went their separate ways, and Russian Time joined with the ex-iSport International outfit, whom they had originally purchased an entry from. Russian Time was hastily moved to the iSport article, and the whole thing is now a mess. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 06:07, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Considering the WP:ASTONISH point (and my hypocritical nature) I think it is better to hold the status quo on constructor articles, and should sort out Russian Time into its own article. GyaroMaguus 11:16, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Sites like ChicaneF1 and StatsF1 have no legal authority regarding F1. It's not up to them to credit points to teams. They are made by fans wo enjoy keeping records of this sport. For all we know, they might base themselves on when to split team statistics on Wikipedia. We should base ourselves on the official instances like FIA and FOM. I'm puzzled why the FIA credits Caterham having started in 2010, but credits only 45 GP's to them. I'm starting to feel that we will only find our answer if we communicate directly with the people at FIA. Anyways, any "astonishment that could exist as a result of a merger can be easily resolved by clearly explaining in the lead that the team was named Lotus Racing/Team Lotus during 2010-2011.Tvx1 (talk) 16:50, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
I just gave you an answer to your puzzlement. --Falcadore (talk) 00:22, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────

In Portuguese pt:Caterham F1 Team is the same article for Caterham F1 and Team Lotus (2010–11). But, pt:Renault F1 redirect to pt:Lotus F1 Team. The article said: "In early 2000, Renault announced his return to Formula 1, by buying the Benetton team, but keeping the name of the team for another season." If Renault is Benetton with other name, the statistic should be merged. But, if Renault is not Benetton, because By who played one season with the name of another team? The statistics of this season go to Benetton truth (extinct) just why the name continued, or go for the real team? The FIA ​​is a source to be considered, but can not be seen as absolute source, because it is a primary source. A secondary or tertiary source written by experts who explain this in more detail, could be stronger than the FIA itself in my opinion. I still would like, if possible, please, an explanation of the business record of the teams, the ID number of each. Another question I have is on the seats and the nationalities of the teams. Why a team can have a flag of a country, being based in another? Caterham F1 is based in Leafield, Oxfordshire, United Kingdom, and is considered to be Malaysian? As this is explained? If the term "base" is used only to designate a garage to store cars, I can understand. But if the Caterham team is actually a subsidiary of Lotus Car / Caterham in the UK and the "base" is the location of the office of the company, then it seems contradictory. Iank Peldeva 30All (talk) 05:57, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
The names of articles reflect the names that teams compete under, not the names of the owners. Because what happens when you get a team with multiple owners, like McLaren? Look at the above example of Russian Time for what happens when you start trying to credit results to an entity other than the one that it competes as - you get chaos.
As for nationalities, teams need to register with the FIA to compete. When they do so, they specify their nationality, which is of their choosing. So even if Caterham are based in England, they want to be registered as a Malaysian team.
As for the rest of your arguments, they have already been covered. The fact is that the current system is the simplest and easiest for everyone involved to follow. It does not matter what the editors of the Portuguese Wikipedia do, or why. They have the ability to form their own consensus independently of us, just as we can form a consensus independently of them. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 06:08, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps this might help. Tyrrell Racing first entered Formula One at the 1968 South African Grand Prix. But they did not build their own car until the 1970 Canadian Grand Prix. So Tyrrell Racing competed in 463 Grands Prix. But Tyrrells (the car) only raced in 430.
The Caterham team started in 2010. The first Caterham race car did not compete until 2012. So the team has raced in 84 Grands Prix but Caterham racing cars have only raced in 46. How does that sound?
As mentioned previously, the difference between team and constructor. That's one of the things about Formula One, the teams prize is not awarded to the team, but to the name of the car and sometimes they do not correspond. --Falcadore (talk) 06:18, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
You did not give an answer to my puzzlement, you gave your own personal guesswork at what the explanation might be. That is pure speculation. An answer is backed by a reliable source to prove it. Tvx1 (talk) 12:39, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
And what would you propose as an alternative? Merging and collapsing articles and splitting results up across them based on the ownership of the team at the time? What is so wrong with having articles and results line up with the teams using the name that they compete under? Prisonermonkeys (talk) 01:51, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
It actually isn't guesswork because the Formula One have always recognised Constructors rather than Teams. It's very well established and common knowledge. So unless you are saying that the Constructors championship is actually a Teams championship and we need a reference to prove otherwise I don't see a reference is needed to establish what is already well known but misinterpreted by some. --Falcadore (talk) 05:26, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── And it is called the "World Constructors Championship" for a reason. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 06:54, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Why is my issue being generalized here? I'm talking solely about the Lotus/Caterham issue. I'm not suggesting splitting and merging team articles based on ownership by any means. In fact, ownership doesn't even come into the question since the team I'm talking about has been under the same ownership the whole time. It has always been "Tony Fernandes' F1 Team". Even our article on Caterham acknowledges that the change from Lotus to Caterham was nothing more that a formal name change. The claim that Caterham is credited by the FIA as being active from 2010, but only having participated in 45 GP's is because Caterham have only "constructed" since 2012 is nothing more than an educated guess by Falcadore based on "common knowledge". On wikipedia we base ourselves on reliable sources and not on "common knowledge". Both of you have mentioned those exact words during the Sirotkin debate. So to accept that claim as a fact we need a reliable source from the FIA to support that. Tvx1 (talk) 15:24, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
Additionally, I would like to point out that the source I provided clearly shows that the FIA credits Lotus F1 Team as being a constructor since 2010 and credits all 83 (that doesn't include Canada 2014 yet, as the source dates from before the race) GP's they contested since then to that same constructor. Therefore I think our articles should reflect that. Tvx1 (talk) 15:41, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
Educated guess? No. The official constructors tables make it very clear, published at the time and re-published since then make it very clear. There were no Caterham Formula One cars prior to 2012. It is your contention that the Lotuses of 2010 and 2011 are retrospectively re-badged as Caterhams when there is no foundation for that. Can you find for me ANYWHERE that the 2010/2011 vehicles are Caterhams?
I can see where you have drawn your assumption though. It is your personal belief that the terms team and constructor are interchangeable. They are not. Yes it is the same team, but the Constructors trophy has never refered to the teams, it refers to the cars.
2010: Lotus-Cosworth from the car Lotus T127
2011: Lotus-Renault from the car Lotus T128
2012: Caterham-Renault from the car Caterham CT01
2013: Caterham-Renault from the car Caterham CT03
2014: Caterham-Renault from the car Caterham CT05
In 2010 and 2011 the constructor was referred to as Lotus, and the FIA have never retrospectively changed the results, because they can't. Their regulations prevent it as the opportunity to appeal those results has expired. --Falcadore (talk) 16:03, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
Why do you keep claiming that I think those terms are interchangeable? That isn't even remotely true. All I try to find out is wether the FIA considers Lotus Racing/Team Lotus/Caterham to be one and the same constructor or not. And to get an answer for that, we need reliable sources from the FIA which shows us the crucial information we need. E.G. which constructor they credit all the GP(s from 2010-present to, who received Lotus' share of the 2011 television money. Is that really that difficult to understand??? For a start can you provide us with A LINK to the official constructors table you mentioned? Lastly, if it is our practice that the articles are for constructors, than why does everyone of them open with sentences like: Ferrari is a formula one team, Caterham is a formula one team, Sauber is a formula one team,... If the articles are for constructors only, than their subjects should be introduced as such. You should practice what you preach! Tvx1 (talk) 14:14, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
Because you are asking why the constructors statistics does not match the team history. That was what I was explaining; the statistics. You want broader explanations, ask broader questions. Your misunderstanding seemed predicated on the statistics. Why don't the stats line-up? Explanation given. Several times.
You want a link to the official constructors table? Can't you find the Official Formula One website? Didn't think it was that hard. --Falcadore (talk) 05:58, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
Falcadore, that official cite is FOM. I asked for FIA proof for your claim that FIA considers them separate constructors. After all, FIA are the only ones who are in a position to credit constructors. Explanation given? Maybe. Your view is given but as of yet you have to give the first bit of proof to substantiate your view, whether you want it or not. Tvx1 (talk) 11:45, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
You are unlikely to find it. The keeping of statistics and category specific records is not an FIA function. --Falcadore (talk) 03:47, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
I should note that the FIA refers to the teams with their official names, i.e. with sponsors, see here. The constructors are not noted, anywhere, including the race classification and the official grid, except for news articles (example). So, Tvx1, you are going down a route that doesn't exist (and you could have seen this had you done your own research). GyaroMaguus 09:38, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
GyaroMaguus, I'd like to point that I'm not the one who has split up articles based on the claim that FIA credits them as separate constructors without producing any sort of proof of that. I'm not the one "going down a route" here. Tvx1 (talk) 14:45, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
Then what exactly are you trying to achieve in this dicussion? GyaroMaguus 14:51, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
If want to find out once and for all who the FIA credits as separate constructors, and who they do not, in a bid to clear up this mess once and for all. And I would like to do that based on actual FIA proof and not some personal guesswork by Falcadore or "general knowledge we all know for years now". Tvx1 (talk) 13:12, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
It is NOT guesswork work. You are wanting proof from the FIA something that is run/officiated by the FOM. There is a disconnect you are not seeing. Maintenance of records is not a FIA function. --Falcadore (talk) 16:29, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Well, I'm not 100% sure that information is actually easy to find. Official FIA documents typically credit the entry rather than the constructors; even in the media pack you linked much earlier in the discussion, the team name is nearly always the entry name, but the statistics are for the constructor as a whole, and do not use the full entry name. If I were you, I'd search for your own answer, because I don't know precisely where to find it and I am happy to follow the consensus. GyaroMaguus 18:22, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
You did not understand what I meant. I'm not looking to change anything here, I know that the Wiki-en has its concepts and respect this fact. What I would really like to understand the situation to propose changes in Wikipedia in Portuguese, in a way that reflects the reality of there. But that information is only possible to discover here, missing allowances to discuss the situation of companies without understanding the European and North American context.
The pattern that I advocate (but not necessarily should be adopted here) is that each company has an article, not every homeowner. Mc Laren and Ferrari had several owners, but no one questions that the scuderia is the same. Paraná Volleyball Club and Rio de Janeiro Volleyball Club (in Portuguese) have the same owner and occupying the same "franchise", but they are two different clubs and have two different articles. I repeat, I am not advocating that it has to be adopted here, is just one example.
Understand just as a curiosity: I wonder if the F-1 teams are a single company (same registry, same statute, same administrative office, same patrimony/heritage/property) that exchange owner only, or if the vacancy is only sold to another company ( another record, another status other administrative office) sign instead. Iank Peldeva 30All (talk) 17:49, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
The companies that own the teams typically have separate articles. See Ferrari, McLaren Group, Red Bull, UB Group, Caterham Cars, Marussia Motors, Mercedes-Benz and Lotus Cars (the exceptions are Williams and Sauber, who are part of companies that barely extend beyond the F1 teams themselves). From this, we can see that F1 teams are not single companies; rather, they are parts of said larger companies. They are effectively brands within the larger company. And like brands of certain products in the rest of the business world, they can be sold to other companies. In the case of Brawn GP, a management buyout from Honda was exacted by Ross Brawn, who turned the Honda F1 brand into its own company. This was a separate company, with shares, 75.1% of which Mercedes-Benz purchased at the end of the season, and they used that majority to turn the team into a brand of Mercedes-Benz. Since this is a brand, the employees stay but have new employers. The workplace (in this case, the factory in Brackley) changed ownership. Honda, Brawn and Mercedes are three completely separate companies that traded a brand between the them that have already been under the ownership of Tyrrell and British American Tobacco. I hope that answers all your queries. GyaroMaguus 18:29, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
Actually Williams is about the company as well. It's called Williams Grand Prix Engineering and although the majority of the article deals with their Formula One operation, their other activities are covered in it as well. Tvx1 (talk) 14:14, 13 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Gyaro e Tvx1, I begin to understand. But there are still some doubts me. You say, for example that most teams are not individual companies, but it seems that, the McLaren, by its full name (in Portuguese pt:razão social) McLaren Racing Limited leaves the impression that she is an individual company, though part of a holding company, and not a department of a company. Sounds like a technicality, but I think it makes a difference let it clear. Or am I wrong and is not it? I will present an example of Brazil. The Clube de Regatas do Flamengo is a club that has a team of basketball, but this basketball team, despite having separate article (here and in the English Wiki) actually is only one department of the club, not a separate organization, part of a holding company. This is exactly the point I wanted to understand a case of each Formula One team. The case of Honda, for example, still do not quite understand that buying and selling. But understand that there are three different things. 1) The company owns 2) scuderia (which may be a department of the company, or may be an independent company Subsidiary, within the same holding) 3) franchise.

In theory, the franchise can be sold to the formation of a new team (Subsidiary company), or to be occupied by a scuderia which actually is not a subsidiary, but only one sector of a larger company. Or the company subsidiary can be sold to another owner, who just change the company name. See what I mean? As I said, I do not intend to modify the Articles of Wiki-en, just explain it better, at least in the Wiki-pt. Iank Peldeva 30All (talk) 02:12, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

In simple terms, when a team changes name in a major way – whether by selling the name or by simply changing the name – we make a new article (the sole exception to this is Hispania Racing Team to HRT (who simply shortened their name)). So regardless of who owns the teams, as long as there are different names we separate the articles. We do this for clarity. We don't want people clicking on the Lotus link from 2010 to find that the article is titled Caterham F1. This is why we do it the way we do it over here.
Regarding the actual ownership, McLaren Group is a parent company of McLaren Racing Limited. This means that McLaren Racing Limited is a subsidiary of McLaren Group. For clarity, all the teams are either divisions, departments, subsidiaries or brands of larger companies. All these (I'll refer to them as teams) can be bought or sold – as can whole companies – and whatever assets and employers the teams have get sold as well. When someone buys a team, they'll probably the change the name too – in which situation it is considered to be a new team and a new article is created.
To make it really clear: our articles are not based on who owns what team – but what name that teams runs under. GyaroMaguus 09:48, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
  • What confuses me is still the way you talk "sells the name" (instead of "sell the franchise"). I now understand how it works for Wikipedia. Just like to understand how it works in business terms when the sale occurs. The buyer, in all cases, a record opens a new company (subsidiary, not to be confused with its parent company), and transfers it to the factory, the base, the franchise and the employees? Or he buys the whole company (including its registration, not to be confused with "name" and its head office, not to be confused with the "base" where cars are kept). And each case is different? How to get information about each company? Is there any place where such references exist? PS: Just to show an example here we can see that Rio de Janeiro Vôlei Clube had his pt:CNPJ opened in 20 of may of 2004, soon, after the foundation of the franchise "Rexona-Ades" / "Unilever". Hence it follows that Corporate personhood is different from both. Here we can see where is the head office team. This does not require Wikipedia to keep articles separately for each company. The Wiki-pt adopted this position, you can act differently. I just like to have access to such information about companies. Iank Peldeva 30All (talk) 00:01, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
They do not sell the name. I grouped "divisions", "departments", "subsidiaries" and "brands" together into "teams" to save myself a sizeable number of words. As for how each sale works in business terms, you would have to look up each sale yourself. Every company that owns an F1 team will treat it differently in respect to the company as a whole and every sale will be individual. I don't know what happened to the Jordan employees who became Midland employees who then became Spyker employees and then became Force India employees; nor do I know what contracts they had and whether they were offered new contracts every time the team changed. I don't know if Honda bought the Brackley factory from British American Tobacco, or whether it came with the BAR team as an asset the company held; nor do I know what happened when Ross Brawn performed the management buyout or what happened when Mercedes-Benz purchased 75.1% of the Brawn GP shares and took over the company. Maybe references do exist that could answer your question, but if you want them, you'd have to find them yourself; I quite frankly do not have the motivation to discover whether they do or not. As far as I am concerned, in the current day and age, individual F1 teams are NOT companies and should not be treated as such. They should be treated as assets; in that thy can be bought and sold between individuals and companies. GyaroMaguus 00:58, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
Ok, thanks for your explanation. You all were very friendly in helping me, it has given me grants to extend the debate. My intention was more to create the same debate, not necessarily change anything for now. If ever arise sources about this question I asked, I ask you please let me know. Congratulations to all! Iank Peldeva 30All (talk) 15:08, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Rob Smedley[edit]

Does his place of residence need revision now he works for Williams? Britmax (talk) 20:37, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

If you have proof that he actually relocated, yes. Otherwise, no. Tvx1 (talk) 11:46, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Circuit maps[edit]

I am wondering if there is any previous discussion regarding the layout of circuit maps, and how simpler ones could be used. I am considering improving some of the ones such as the Spa track map, as it looks cluttered in the infoboxes. SAS1998Talk 15:38, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

User:Sas1998, I tried to get interest going in standardising circuit maps last year, but there were no takers. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 08:21, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

A question about the 107 % rule[edit]

Please answer here, if you can: Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Entertainment#107.25_rule_in_motorsport Outer Image (talk) 16:21, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

I believe the question has now been adequately answered. DH85868993 (talk) 10:32, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Random changes[edit]

This user may have been caught early in a random changes spree. Eyes open, please. Britmax (talk) 16:22, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Brawn BGP 001 naming[edit]

An editor has stated that the Brawn BGP 001 should be referred to as the "Brawn GP BGP 001" (and updated the article contents accordingly). You are welcome to express any views you may have on the matter at Talk:Brawn BGP 001#Brawn GP BGP 001 title incorrect.. DH85868993 (talk) 13:35, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

FIA Pole Trophy[edit]

There has been a tedious debate at Talk:2014 Formula One season with regard to the inclusion of information in the table for the FIA Pole Trophy. We would appreciate further input so that we might come to a speedy conclusion. You can bring your input here. Thanks, Tvx1 (talk) 12:49, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Again, your input would be greatly appreciated as the debate continues on. Thanks, Tvx1 (talk) 14:32, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

English Grand Prix / Catalonian Grand Prix[edit]

This is a bit of an odd one - there is a subject that, for the moment, is purely hypothetical, but should it be realised, then I feel it has the potential to become an issue for some articles, and that it would be pertinent to have a plan to address it to minimise disruption.

In the coming weeks and months, there are two referendums in Europe that have the potential to affect races. Firstly, Scotland is voting on independence, and so too is Catalonia. In the event that either or both referendum is successful, then it has the potential to affect the British and Spanish Grands Prix - specifically, their names. The British Grand Prix could become the English Grand Prix; likewise, the Spanish could become the Catalonian.

Now, I understand that both referendums are yet to be held, and that a successful yes vote is no guarantee of a name change. So, for now, we should wait and see. But for the purposes of this discussion, I think we should assume that both will be successful, that both will require name changes, and come up with a plan to address it, given the potential for confusion and vandalism. After all, I can find no precedent for this - new nations don't form very often, and no race has ever been affected until now.

The Barcelona one is easy enough; it was in Spain and will be in Catalonia, and so a new page would be needed, with a high degree of interconnectivity between them. But Silverstone is a harder proposition - Scotland would be achieving independence, and so the race would effectively remain exactly the same, but running under a new name, and I have no idea how to address that.

Thoughts? Prisonermonkeys (talk) 04:13, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I think we should not discuss this at all until reliable sources report that name changes are likely. We could spend/waste many hours (and needlessly open many cans of worms) discussing/planning for something that never eventuates. DH85868993 (talk) 04:21, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Even if Scotland would become independent, is there anything pointing to a need for Great Britain to change their name? Surely England, Wales, and Northern Ireland would still constitute Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and hence still have a British Grand Prix. The359 (Talk) 05:52, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Who cares? Speculation on something that might is pointless. We don't do anything unless something does happen. Why waste time on hypotheticals?
Was there any debate amongst editors whether a Korean race might be called South Korean Grand Prix instead of Korean Grand Prix? No. Why? Because debating about what a race might be called is completely against Wikipedia's aims. We report what is, not what might be. It is not our role to take part in any form of debate or anticipate any form of possible name change. When a name change happens we change it. It is just that simple. Please PM don't keep filling up talk pages with hypotheticals. Wikipedia does not deal in hypotheticals. --Falcadore (talk) 09:51, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Well, I see you have completely missed the point of what I'm trying to do here. Which is odd, because I tried to make it as clear as possible. I am only trying to anticipate a potential problem and be proactive in finding a solution, so that if it does come to pass, we already have a plan in place. I'd much rather do that now and never need to use it than convince myself that it's an obscure problem, only to have it come up and see articles in disarray as people try to make things up as they go.
But credit where credit is due - you've given me a very good idea on how to handle the problem. If and when it happens, I'll just let you sort it out. I'm sure you'll do just fine, and you won't lose your patience with anyone. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 11:08, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
As someone who has been editing here for quite a while you really ought to have anticipated that established editors would give you short shrift over a blatant crystalballing exercise such as this. Firstly, the referenda haven't even happened yet. Second, even if either results in a "yes" vote it may be many years before the practicalities of secession are worked out. Finally, we have no idea what the new entities (on either side) might be called. Will the UK continue as GB&NI, or possibly England, Wales and NI? Or what? Much more to the point: we don't know what the FIA/FOM/race promoters will call the events. Falcadore's points are all well made and to the point. Stick to established facts in the past tense. Pyrope 17:29, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Let's be honest, if there is a change in name it'll be very clearly stated by both the FIA and the press. Any announced changes would be dealt with at the appropriate time. Anyhow, Silverstone holds the rights to hold the British GP until 2026, and Barcelona holds the rights to hold the Spanish GP until 2016. These rights are not just to Formula One races, but F1 races under a specific name. Some if there are any changes they'll have to be done after renegotiation of contracts. GyaroMaguus 19:17, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Pyrope, as established editors, I am surprised that neither you nor Falcadore recognised the potential for instability and disruption that an event such as this should it come to pass, particularly among the more inexperienced editors. Especially since it was you two who taught me to edit with one eye on the future, and to consider what an article will look like a day from now, a year from now, and a decade from now.

I am well aware that I am forecasting a very precise set of circumstances, and that those circumstances are unlikely to pass. But well do I remember the problems we had in 2009 when foreign-language sources started reporting that Alonso was moving to Ferrari in 2010 months before it was confirmed. We probably never anticipated that being a problem in 2008, and so nothing was really done about it until the 2010 article was constantly being edited back and forth. If we had seen it coming, we probably would have done something about it.

Hell, we have that problem right now "Baku Street Circuit" can refer to any one of three circuits, and until such time as the new circuit is named, there is a conflict.

So you can keep calling it speculation if you like. But I see it as anticipating potential issues, and trying to come up with a solution in advance so that it is less of a problem if it comes to pass. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 04:46, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't think there is a lack of recognition that problems can occur, the thought is simply that we cannot plan ahead for every eventuality and it is futile to even attempt it, especially with something as oddly peculiar as this. Without any actual facts to go off, what exactly are you expecting us to plan for? A problem might occur, yes, but are you actually suggestion we come up with some sort of predetermined solution for a problem that does not yet exist? How in the world would that ever be considered consensus? As soon as any event such as this happened, it likely would have facts the counteract any decision we attempt to come up with. The359 (Talk) 05:52, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
As I understand it you are asking for preparations for any event like:
Has Scotland seceded? No. Has race name changed? No. No action.
Has Scotland seceded? Yes. Is Great Britain still Great Britain? Yes. Has race name changed? No. No action.
Has Scotland seceded? Yes. Is Great Britain still Great Britain? No. Has race name changed? No. No action.
Has Scotland seceded? Yes. Is Great Britain still Great Britain? No. Has race name changed? Yes. Change article.
See, it's simple. No action is recquired until the FIA and/or relevant ASN/race organiser announces the race name has changed. Whether a region secedes or not it still comes down to has the relevant organisers confirmed a name change or not.
Do we do anything anticipatory? No. Why? Nothing has actually happenned. When it does, then we act. Until then, mountain, meet molehill. --Falcadore (talk) 07:43, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I think that if the name of a race changes, the new name should be used on Wikipedia. Otherwise, not. Or is that too complicated? Ian Dalziel (talk) 16:02, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I think this just another case of speculating into existence a problem of which we don't even know it even exists. For all its worth, the most likely name for a successor to the British Grand Prix if Scotland were to become independent would be the United Kingdom Grand Prix. The solution to this hypothetical problem has been swiftly summed up by Falcadore. I would make just a little amendment to it, though. I wouldn't change the names of all the existing articles, but rather creating new articles for the new Grands Prix with the new titles. Tvx1 (talk) 10:58, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Redirects for discussion[edit]

All the "2014 Grand Prix of XXX" redirects have been nominated for discussion. You are welcome to express any views you may have on the matter at the discussion. Note that these are the (unused) "2014 Grand Prix of XXX" redirects, not the "2014 XXX Grand Prix" redirects (which will be converted into articles in the fullness of time). DH85868993 (talk) 01:50, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

107% rule[edit]

Do we really need to list every application of the rule? How long is this going to make the article by about 2020? Britmax (talk) 11:22, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

It wouldn't worry me if we didn't list every application of the rule. It's a fairly common occurrence these days, and the driver is almost always allowed to race. At current rates, the table would have about 100 extra rows by 2020. DH85868993 (talk) 12:46, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I would consider going with what the rule is designed for (Preventing dangerously slow cars from qualifying). Include those who set a representative lap time (whether they started the race or not) and don't include those who didn't set a time due to mechanical / technical issues (e.g. Lewis Hamilton and Pastor Maldonado at the 2014 Hungarian GP who had mechanical issues but would have set times within 107%). Following this, the table would look more like this for the 2014 season:
107% rule after adoption by first qualifying round (from 2011)
Year Event Q1 fastest time 107% time Driver Team Time  % of fastest Allowed to race?
2014 British Grand Prix 1:40.380 1:47.406 Sweden Marcus Ericsson Malaysia Caterham 1:49.421 109.006 Yes
Japan Kamui Kobayashi 1:49.625 109.210 Yes

Mharris99 (talk) 14:55, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I have to agree, because the other drivers have not exceeded the 107% mark. We are sort of reporting technical non-qualifications rather than 107% incursions. GyaroMaguus 22:11, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I also like Mharris99's idea. DH85868993 (talk) 01:01, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
I would like to point out that failing to set a time during Q1 is considered to be a 107% violation, and the driver in question has to apply to the stewards in order to be allowed to race. E.G. Hamilton's application review at Hungary. I would remove those whore are labeled excluded from the table. Those drivers did effectively set a time within the 107% mark during Q1, but were later excluded for an infraction during Q2 or Q3. They didn't have to apply to the stewards to be allowed to race. Tvx1 (talk) 13:26, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Well, no. As is visible in Kobayashi's review from Silverstone, the FIA mentions when a driver has failed to qualify in light of the 107% rule. It was not mentioned on Hamilton's appeal, and thus, Hamilton only purely failed to qualify, but not under the 107% ruling. So all those who purely failed to set a time should be excluded from the list. GyaroMaguus 19:50, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
ARgh! Do you have to tabulate EVERYTHING? Just make a note in the appropriate race stating they were allowed to race - in the above instance to 2014 British Grand Prix.
Can someone explain to me why everything has to be tabulated? --Falcadore (talk) 13:36, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Someone probably just decided to list them (allow WP:AGF) and we just kept updating the article. GyaroMaguus 19:50, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

"Phallic" editor[edit]

Lately I have noticed a few edits from IP addresses that are describing the 2014 noses as "phallic" like this one. I suppose that, on a certain level, there is a truth to it, but at the same time, there are so many other ways to describe the noses; "finger-like", "anteater" and "alien" all spring to mind. And so I think the use of "phallic" is essentially trolling; however, I can't report the editors as IP vandals, since it's always a different address, and it's entirely plausible that this is a genuine (if misguided) attempt to improve the article.

So, can we all be on the look-out for these edits and revert them? Prisonermonkeys (talk) 06:36, 31 July 2014 (UTC)