Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities

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WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities (Rated Project-class)
WikiProject icon WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities is part of the Fraternities and Sororities WikiProject, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Greek Life on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to International social societies, local organizations, honor societies, and their members. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, visit the project page, where you can join the project, and/or contribute to the discussion.
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Sorority and fraternity template[edit]

I'm wondering if we should make a sorority and fraternity template. There are separate templates for NPHC, greek umbrella organizations, etc, but it seems like it would be a better navigation tool if they were combined into one big template. For instance, if I'm in a fraternity and am interested in reading about that topic, chances are I want to read about organizations outside of just NPHC or NPC. I think it would be a good addition to wikipedia. I'm willing to do the work (if I can figure out how to do so). Thoughts? Bali88 (talk) 15:25, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Are you talking about an infobox? If so, there's Template:Infobox Fraternity. Primefac (talk) 07:52, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
No, I mean a navigation template. I'm not sure if that's what it's called, but if you look at the bottom of the United States article, there is a "united states topics" box. I think there should be a big one that combines all of the various sorority and fraternity topics. Bali88 (talk) 13:36, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
Okay, it is finished. I'm sure it could still need some brushing up though if anyone wants to work on it. Template:Fraternities and Sororities Bali88 (talk) 14:44, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
The template looks very nice, but it seems a bit lengthy to me. Is it really a good idea sticking that at the bottom of every fraternity/sorority page? There's already the List of social fraternities and sororities (which looks like it needs some minor cleanup), so a "See Also" section could be added to the bottom of each page linking to the full list instead of adding that monster.Primefac (talk) 19:15, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
It is very long. Way longer than I had anticipated. I'm still trying to figure out the direction I'm going to go with it. I figured out that some of the organizations are in multiple umbrella organizations, so if I delete the multiple listings, that will narrow it down some. I might also make the template just for social fraternities and sororities. That would cut it in half! It should change quite a bit in the next week or so. Bali88 (talk) 13:49, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
I would leave just the first two rows "History" and "Related Concepts" and then add a third row with a list of lists of fraternities and sororities. Enos733 (talk) 21:38, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, I tend to agree. I'll do that in the next few days. Someone else is welcome to work on it too. Bali88 (talk) 15:46, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Article on Beta Beta Beta needs this WikiProject's help to expand it[edit]

Granted, it's an academic fraternity (as opposed to social), but, this Project's Talk Page Banner (as seen at Talk:Alpha Phi Omega and other places) clearly states "includes but is not limited to International social societies, local organizations, honor societies..." and so there we have a Greek Letter Honor Society (AKA an Academic Fraternity). My point is that we should add more Sections to that Article, probably make the Chapter List a separate Article, and while I'm at it, make sure the serial numbers in the table match the actual chapter letters (instead of getting lazy at the end of a slowly expanding table, as it is right now).

Who else is with me on this? Look at the Article as it stands and see for yourself. It has improved immensely in the time I've followed it, but it is still not enough. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 22:31, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Maybe this is obvious and I'm just not seeing it, but what are the numbers for? And yes, if we include all 500+ chapters, it would need a separate article! Bali88 (talk) 23:37, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
The numbers are just a legend for the Local Chapter Letters. So we don't have to memorize that Rho Beta Chapter is (by definition) the 410th Chapter of its organization, for example. (Founding Chapter being Alpha, second being Beta, third Gamma, etc.) Still, you have a point. Perhaps we could remove the left column numbers from Beta Beta Beta (and other GLO Articles which currently have them) and Create an Article on Local Chapter Letters, or better yet, somebody develop an App that converts serial numbers to Chapter Letters and vice versa.
So we are in agreement about needing a separate List of Chapters Article, which we already have for Tau Kappa Epsilon, Alpha Phi Omega, Phi Beta Kappa, and others.
As to where this Article can go, there is plenty of information available on this organization's history, and also its association with Bios (one of the few peer-reviewed journals that accepts undergrad theses). There is certainly plenty of notability here! The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 05:04, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
I think an organization with 500+ chapters is notable enough to have a stand alone list of chapters. My suggestion for the list is to make it sortable, then put a column detailing the year it was originally founded. That way, the reader can put it in order if they want to with just one click and if an editor comes by and does a crap job putting them in serial order, it's still a usable chart without a ton of work. Plus, I think there are probably a lot of dum dum readers like me who won't know what the numbers mean. Also, I don't know if this will work, but it's worth a shot: I'm wondering if we have a sortable list, instead of writing them out (Alpha Phi), if we put the greek letters instead (ΑΦ), if it would automatically alphabetize them? I think a sortable list is the way to go. I'm sure there are probably people who would want to put it in alphabetical order by school too, so I think it's a good solution. Bali88 (talk) 13:07, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
The entirety of this article seems to be the chapter list, so it definitely needs more fleshing out to avoid a possible AfD. I do agree, though, that there is no reason to put the chapter number in the table. I would suggest simply ordering them by founding date, which would both put them in Greek-alphabetical order; not really any reason I can see to have them be a sortable table. Any chapters founded out-of-order can have some sort of note (like those in the Phi Mu Alpha chapter list.Primefac (talk) 15:02, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
The reason I suggested to have a sortable table was because Willstro was concerned that multiple editors may work on it and put them out of order, necessitating further editing. Secondly, a reader may want to sort by most recent additions, or alphabetical by school. Also, it's not any extra work doing it that way, so there isn't much downside to it. Bali88 (talk) 15:18, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
See below, founding date and greek letter name do *not* line up for Beta Beta Beta.Naraht (talk) 15:20, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Table List[edit]

OK, I've uploaded the list from http://www.tri-beta.org/localchapters.html, cleaned it up a *lot*, table-ized it and put it at User:Naraht/BBB chapters sandbox (Yes, Ideally we'd use the Fratchapterstart, etc templates, but for now...). The numbers are irrelevant as far as I can tell, Beta was not chapter #2 in founding, (somewhere between 6th and 9th) and as far as I can tell, the chapter letters were defined by location, (for example all of the chapters starting with Zeta are in Puerto Rico). If the areas can be referenced, then it might even make sense to split the table by these sections. I can certain change/add the spelled out letters (Zeta) with the Greek, but I'm not sure it makes as much sense. No information on how to sort within the years, haven't found an easily accessible list with months and days. Anyway, take a look.

Should I replace the table in the article with the one from my sandbox?Naraht (talk) 03:14, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Personally I think the Universities should be wikilinks. Too bad there isn't more detail regarding founding dates, would make the table a lot more informative. As to your question: what you have is better than what's currently there, so I think it should be replaced. Primefac (talk) 15:58, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Looks great. I replaced the sorting markup because it didn't appear to be working and got about 1/3 of the universities wikilinked. Go ahead and put it in the article. Bali88 (talk) 16:30, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for starting the Wikilink, but I'm going to go back to the spreadsheet that I've got and automate the addition of the double brackets and then fix the ones that would be redlinked using what you've done so far, so hold off with the remainder of the wikilinking, OK? Also, thank you for the fix on the sorting markup. If I haven't gotten a better version in my sandbox by Friday, go ahead and upload it. (Yes, I know that anything I've uploaded anyone may edit, but give me a bit of time, OK?Naraht (talk) 16:49, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Status of Table. I'm doing with linking everything and the National Treasurer of BBB has been helping with disambiguating entries like Emmanual College and Bethel University. I've got one that I missed and sent back to her. If she doesn't have anything with chartering dates within years or which ones are active, then I'm going to put it in the article and move on to the next challenge. Anyone got a suggested GLO for next?Naraht (talk) 15:59, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
As a quick note, I figured even if I couldn't find the exact date for most chapters I could still find it for their founding chapter, but *nope*. I can't find anything including on the Society homepage and rituals (those are public) saying what day in 1922.Naraht (talk) 16:04, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Done with Chapter List[edit]

The chapter list is done. History can be filled in with Baird's and a Prose version of http://www.tri-beta.org/Milestones/index.html . Naraht (talk) 15:32, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I think this list should be on its own page, especially given its size. I am happy to do this. Primefac (talk) 15:40, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for working on this guys! Bali88 (talk) 15:44, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Fine on own page, leaves the original page a little light (though not quite stub, I think), which of course can be fixed.Naraht (talk) 15:48, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank You[edit]

Thank you all so much! There are still a few changes I would suggest (such as finding a reliable way to indicate inactive or disbanded chapters where they appear in the table), but those can be discussed in the "List of Beta Beta Beta chapters" Article Talk Page at a later date! For now, thank you all, and I hope the weekends you're all enjoying right now are as wonderful as mine! The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 20:50, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Archiving topics[edit]

This talk page is getting a bit long, if no one is opposed I'll set up an archive with lowercase sigmabot III.Primefac (talk) 16:20, 29 August 2014 (UTC

There are previous archives, but apparently created by hand (User:Miranda mostly). I'm cool with the addition of botted archives here.Naraht (talk) 16:23, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Derp, didn't even notice the archives list at the top. It's not a huge page (and doesn't get added to very often) so I'll just do it by hand. Primefac (talk) 16:28, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Just because there is a large (> 3 month) gap, I'd move everything up to April 2013 into the archive and keep the October 2013 and after.Naraht (talk) 16:47, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Next Chapter List to fix - List of Tau Epsilon Phi chapters[edit]

I think the next list to fix is probably List of Tau Epsilon Phi chapters. There is a pretty good source at http://www.tep.org/chapters/chapter-roll . Sadly enough, there are few enough active chapters, that the external links might be suitable to keep.

Any others in Category:Lists of chapters of United States student societies by society that stand out as need to be updated?Naraht (talk) 15:36, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal[edit]

Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Let's create an Article on Rho Tau Chi (PTX)[edit]

This is a coed service Fraternity not entirely unlike Alpha Phi Omega (AΦΩ). Whereas AΦΩ was founded for students who are/have been Boy Scouts, Rho Tau Chi (PTX) was founded for Veterans who subsequently go back to college. Just as AΦΩ no longer requires prior Boy Scout affiliation, PTX no longer requires prior Military service. Still, both these coed frats have their themes and their sources of Fraternal values based on other pre-existing organizations (in the case of AΦΩ, the BSA, and in the case of PTX, the US Armed Services).

Basically, PTX is to the Military what AΦΩ is to Boy Scouts. That is just for the sake of analogy to introduce PTX and ask you guys to help me find enough sources for a future Wikipedia Article (since PTX has as yet no Article).

Thank you in advance. Just think of it as a reason to create 1 more Fraternity Article. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 04:14, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

If I'm reading my sources correctly, Rho Tau Chi has only one active chapter and was founded in 1993, correct?Naraht (talk) 15:54, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

List of chapters template[edit]

Regarding the template for chapter lists, I feel it would be improved if the information under the location heading be separated into city and state so the two can be sorted separately. Also, the name of the state should probably be spelled out. Freddiem (talk) 00:29, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Always link?[edit]

The word "Red" shouldn't always be linked, is there any circumstance where a GLO with a wikipedia page shouldn't be linked from another article (other than already linked elsewhere in the article)?Naraht (talk) 21:52, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Stubbing the remainder of the ACHS[edit]

I noticed that Sigma Lambda Alpha honor society was more or less built from the entry at http://www.achsnatl.org/society.asp?society=sla&honor_society=Sigma_Lambda_Alpha. I created Mu Kappa Tau based on that. Does anyone see any problem with creating these stubs?Naraht (talk) 19:39, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Use of 'the'[edit]

Which is preferred (and is it preferred enough to make changes?)

  • Smith is a member of Rho Sigma Tau fraternity.

or

  • Smith is a member of the Rho Sigma Tau fraternity.

Naraht (talk) 15:04, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

From what I've seen, it depends on the context; when you're talking about an aspect of the fraternity, there would be "the," but if it's just the fraternity itself, there is no "the"
  • Smith is a member of the Rho Sigma Tau fraternity.
  • Smith was initiated at the Delta Nu chapter.
  • Smith is a member of Rho Sigma Tau.
At the end of the day, I think it's ambiguous enough that we shouldn't spend time splitting hairs over what's grammatically perfect. Interesting question, though. Primefac (talk) 16:49, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Delta Psi[edit]

FYI, I just created Delta Psi (University of Vermont). St. Anthony Hall is currently sitting on a redirect to Delta Psi ... would anyone feel a "Delta Psi" disambig page would be in order? (My assumption is SAH should just keep the wikilink for Delta Psi since it will be more likely to be searched given its extant status.) DocumentError (talk) 10:59, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

The only unlabeled disambiguation page I've seen is Delta Phi Epsilon. There is also an Omega Phi Alpha (disambiguation) page, but only one of the Omega Phi Alpha's is active. At most, I'd go with a Delta Psi (disambiguation) page with links to the two articles. As you said, Delta Psi is much more likely to be search for SAH.Naraht (talk) 16:03, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
Add @DocumentError:Naraht (talk) 16:04, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Sigma Delta Rho[edit]

So I created Sigma Delta Rho but am thinking it should be renamed. Basically, from 1909 to 1932 it was a local at Amherst College, Sigma Delta Rho. From 1932 to 1957 it was the Alpha Mu chapter of Theta Xi. It then returned to being a local but not under its former name, as Alpha Theta Xi, which it was known as from 1957 to 1985 when it became defunct. Which name would be most appropriate for this article? DocumentError (talk) 01:07, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Personally, I would go with whatever it is referred to most in the sources. Honestly, you might have a notability issue with this article. The fraternity has been mentioned in several sources, but I'm not sure it would survive an AFD. Something you might consider: I think an article about greek life at Amherst might fly if it does get deleted on those grounds. The information contained in that article would be great in an article about the history of greek life at Amherst. Bali88 (talk) 02:47, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
That's a very excellent suggestion. I'll start working on that now and plan to fold this into it. Thanks! DocumentError (talk) 03:50, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

GA noms[edit]

FYI, I've just nominated Delta Upsilon, Delta Psi (University of Vermont), and Rainbow Fraternity for GA if anyone is interested in reviewing them. DocumentError (talk) 22:40, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Phi Beta Kappa chapter list?[edit]

It seems almost odd that we don't have a page for the Phi Beta Kappa chapter list. So far the best that I've seen with years attached is at https://books.google.com/books?id=6Sw7AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15#v=onepage&q&f=false , I can'treally find anything useful at www.pbk.org that would be easily brought to Wikipedia. Does anyone have any ideas? I'd be happy to create it if I can find a single source for anything close the the present day.Naraht (talk) 16:34, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

The 1991 Baird's repeats the 1976 list, so we've got everything from there back, I may have to OCR that list from my copy. I guess that I can call them as well...Naraht (talk) 16:45, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
Created and working on expanding at List of Phi Beta Kappa chapters. Any help on finding dates for any of the chapters without chartering dates is helpful!Naraht (talk) 20:48, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

WikiProject X is live![edit]

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Hello everyone!

You may have received a message from me earlier asking you to comment on my WikiProject X proposal. The good news is that WikiProject X is now live! In our first phase, we are focusing on research. At this time, we are looking for people to share their experiences with WikiProjects: good, bad, or neutral. We are also looking for WikiProjects that may be interested in trying out new tools and layouts that will make participating easier and projects easier to maintain. If you or your WikiProject are interested, check us out! Note that this is an opt-in program; no WikiProject will be required to change anything against its wishes. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you!

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Harej (talk) 16:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)


Alpha Phi Alpha FAR[edit]

I have nominated Alpha Phi Alpha for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:57, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

List of LGBT and LGBT-friendly fraternities and sororities[edit]

Recently, someone deleted a sorority from the list of List of LGBT and LGBT-friendly fraternities and sororities with the rationale that it is not notable enough to have a wikipedia article. When I questioned it, they pointed me to the talk page saying that the criteria is listed there. All I can find there is a post saying to abide by the criteria set forth in the lead...which does not contain any criteria. If there is criteria set up for the article, it should be more obvious. Maybe it's just me and I'm too much of a dumb dumb to find it, but I think it should be laid out a little more clearly. Also, I disagree with the criteria that the article should only contain organizations that have wikipedia articles. Typically, that critieria is only used when there are hundreds of possible entries and you have a need to limit it. At most, there may be a handful of LGBT organizations so there is no reason to limit it like that. The list of social fraternities and sororities doesn't even limit it like that. Anyway, no one is apparently manning the article, so I'd love some feedback to gain consensus on this. Bali88 (talk) 13:38, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Bali88, while I agree that there is no explicit "rule" set out anywhere in the article (except one deleted last year) there does seem to be precedent to only keep groups that have a Wikipedia page. You've done the right thing by posting on the talk page, and until it gets resolved (formally) then I would advise not re-adding Gamma Zeta Rho (or any other REDLINK, even though per Wikipedia's rules they're acceptable). Primefac (talk) 13:53, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
Right, that's what I'm trying to do here--get it resolved. So if you could give your feedback on the talk page I would appreciate it. :-) Bali88 (talk) 15:40, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Fraternity Pins[edit]

Template:Infobox fraternity has entries for Pledge Pin and Colony Pin, but not for brother pin. I've found a Fraternity Pin collector on Wikipedia who is willing to share images of the Fraternity pins that he owns. I've seen at least one fraternity that has an image of the pin in the *crest* entry in the infobox, that that shouldn't be. So should we add it? I guarantee we'll get more entries than the Colony Pin. And in loading the image, under what Licensing should it be loaded?Naraht (talk) 12:29, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

This is worth exploring, and the photos of the pins would be a fine addition. What we will find is that adoption of pins varies widely. While some groups use "colony pins" others simply have a standard pin and a pledge pin. (These of course may also have levels of grand officer pins and donor pins.) For a time, chapter designation pins were also common. Naraht, you mentioned my use of a pin photo instead of a crest in the infobox for Psi Omega. True; this was done because after a search I was unable to find a JPG of their crest or a scanable image. Further, it appeared that the pin itself was a stylized version of a 2-d crest. Some other researcher may be able to find one, and I'd welcome that change. Nevertheless, I think the infobox template can and should be updated, as you have suggested. Jax MN (talk) 12:52, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Do we have any examples of articles with colony pins? Alpha Phi Omega does have one (we call our colonies petitioning groups), but I'm curious as to whether that entry is currently used in the infobox. Well, we should be able to scan pretty much anything out of the pre 1923 Baird's...Naraht (talk) 15:43, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Draft:University of Virginia Greek life[edit]

Hi, I'm working to get an article on UVa's Greek life added to Wikipedia and I'm looking for some help with adding third-party sources/reviewing the article. Unfortunately, my initial submission was rejected because several of the published histories of UVa that I used have conflicts of interest (i.e. the author is an alum, a former faculty member, the book was published by UVa Press, etc.). Likewise, most histories of Kappa Sigma and Pi Kappa Alpha (which were founded at UVa) present conflicts of interest as well, since most of those histories were written by people associated with the fraternities. I've already used Baird's Manual and I have several sources that briefly mention UVa's Greek life, but I'm looking for other third-party sources (likely histories of UVa or histories of fraternity/sorority life) that discuss UVa's Greek life in greater detail. Any help or advice would be appreciated. Thanks! Puppysnot (talk) 17:19, 21 May 2015 (UTC)Puppysnot (talk) 17:16, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Looks like this page has now been accepted. Congratulations. Jax MN (talk) 03:50, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
Yep! Thanks for your advice on my talk page. I'll continue to improve the article and link to it on other pages so it gets more exposure. Puppysnot (talk) 04:13, 22 May 2015 (UTC)