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Greek Letters and Wikipedia.

I believe that policy would be that every occurrence of ΟΔΕ should actually be {{lang|el|ΟΔΕ}}. I'm pretty sure that would be a massive effort (we may need to add it to tasks for a bot.)Naraht (talk) 13:48, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

I've noticed that inconsistency. Would you elaborate on why this change is important? (Not disagreeing, just a question to help new users.) My contributions tend toward body text, graphics and formatting. Are these things: {{lang|el|ΟΔΕ}} called "template tags"? And wouldn't the format be like this: {{lang|grc|ΟΔΕ}}? While I use them often, and consistency is a virtue on Wikipedia, I don't exactly understand the driving rationale behind use of them. Nor have I bothered to use bots very much. Can you discuss this a bit? Jax MN (talk) 15:16, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
I asked on Template_talk:Lang#Fraternities and the one person who responded was in favor. The reasons are at Template:Lang#Rationale, but I'm not sure how many of those apply. As for el vs grc, see List of ISO 639-1 codes. Modern greek (1453 CE and after) uses el, Ancient Greek uses grc. I agree that grc is probably more appropriate than el. As for bots, for edits to a massive number of articles (say more than 250+, which I think we'd probably make), I think it is appropriate. See WP:BOT, there are places where it could be requested if we go that way.Naraht (talk) 19:13, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
This appears to be a massive editing project, and something perfect for a bot, with great care taken to write the algorithm. I fully support it, for the benefit of text readers, and page translation issues. I support use of the classical Greek forms (i.e: "grc" rather than "el"), thus {{lang|grc|ΑΒΓ}}. The list of Fraternities and Sororities at Cornell uses this format.
For the record, to aid whomever does this project, I'd like to note two cases where a fraternity identified by letters and not a name like Acacia, FarmHouse, or Triangle, stepped outside of the 24 common Greek letters for its acronym:
  • Beta Samach would obviously use two adjacent language tags, one for the classical Greek "Beta", and the second for the Hebrew "Samach". Easy enough.
  • Alpha Digamma is a bit more tricky. The Greek letter "Digamma" was far less common, but filled an important role in its use for numbering schemes. It was the sixth letter of certain alphabets used in ancient Greek city states, and was long retained for its numerological value, as representative of "six". It took various forms over the years but its earliest incarnation looked like this: "", with arms splayed slightly downward, similar to Norse runes I've seen. The dormant fraternity I mentioned, Alpha Digamma, used it on its pin, represented with an "F". Here's a photo: [1] While we're at it, here's an 1879 citation from Baird's[2], describing the small group.
I suppose, too, that we should opt for a standardized system of writing dates, whether {{dts|1875|11|01}} for November 1, 1875 or {{dts|1875}} for 1875 or {{dts|1875|11}} for November 1875. So much to do... Jax MN (talk) 02:56, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Image of the pin of Alpha Digamma fraternity, accessed 2 Aug 2021.
  2. ^ Baird's Manual citation on Alpha Digamma fraternity, accessed 2 Aug 2021.
I'm going to take a crack with AutoWikiBrowser when I have the chance. I'll put together a list of pages that have ([Α-Ω]* or letters *= *[Α-Ω]* and substitute these appropriately. Won't take care of everything, but should get us started. I can also attack separately the chapter lists. I have no idea if Digamma is between Alpha and Omega in the ranges. My guess is that it will be a separate case.Naraht (talk) 14:56, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
Not that the Digamma issue will cause any hiccups; that was more for pedantic interest. Jax MN (talk) 15:45, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
OK, changed about a dozen using AWB. Only changed those in GLO and name = GLO inside the template. Got a couple of false positives in the search. Changed articles include Alpha Phi Omega and Sigma Alpha Epsilon. Let me know if those look OK before I kick them all off. Not sure that doing a replace for all greek letter strings in an article makes sense, let's start from here.Naraht (talk) 17:47, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
So far so good. I've seen most of the changes you've made. The bot didn't pick up the (ΦΑ) in parentheses as the motto for ΣΑΕ so I did that one manually, and it looks like five or six of the other test changes made this evening were to Greek language mottos elsewhere (not in parentheses but either bare or in quotes), but at the same time the bot did NOT alter Greek Letters in the |Letters= parameter in the various infoboxes. I didn't know if you were targeting that field for this test - I assumed so.
I see that the bot picked up whether the letters were upper case or lower case. Good. Jax MN (talk) 03:25, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
The changes to the mottos were done by hand. All I was doing for AWB was the GLO and name = GLO. I'll try to pump through the rest over the next few days.Naraht (talk) 12:17, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Beta Samach

The Beta gets lang|grc, the question is whether the Samach gets the heb or hbo. If we assume the greek letters are pre 1453, then the Hebrew should be hbo assuming Mishnaic or earlier?Naraht (talk) 17:05, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Did you see the Samach character in the center of their crest? That should probably be our guide. Members of Beta Samach at its founding (1910) were largely proto-Zionists and Orthodox, and it seems whatever lettering system they preferred would be a correct choice. Jax MN (talk) 18:31, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
Jax MNThe character itself reached that form (circular with a thick top) about 50 BCE according to the article on Samekh. So that means both heb or hbo would be correct for the shape. But as you said, more of a modern view on Hebrew, so I'm going with heb.Naraht (talk) 21:21, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
You may want to check and correct my work. I inserted the HEB language template around the instance of the letter Samach on the page Beta Sigma Rho, first paragraph of the History section (this is the REDIRECT destination for the page Beta Samach). It was still quite small, so I bumped up the size of the letter. Still, it looks much like a Greek Omicron, without the stylistic serif at the top left of the letter that I believe I see in more calligraphic treatments. Is there a better way to do this, or a capitalized version of the letter that I am missing? I think, over a year ago, you added this letter to the page. Jax MN (talk) 03:07, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Request for comment at Talk:Pan Sophic#RFC: Which picture should be used for the infobox image?

There is an RFC listed at the location above which may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ––FormalDude talk 21:32, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Alpha Phi Beta

Watching and helping Draft:Alpha Phi Beta Fraternity - UP College of Law. Definitely currently belongs in draft space, but I *think* the editor has the right idea now.Naraht (talk) 11:26, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

FAR notice

I have nominated Kappa Kappa Psi for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 10:44, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Chi Zeta Chi

I may have gotten a little bit carried away adding Chi Zeta Chi information to the Phi Rho Sigma page (Chi Zeta Chi merged with Phi Rho Sigma). I'll try to untangle to create a separate page when I have a chance, wouldn't mind someone else doing so.  :) Also "The Chi Zeta Chi Medical Fraternity "national" A Retrospect and a Prospect An Official Document", the second ref on the chapter list has the colors, flower etc. Naraht (talk) 15:45, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Fraternity in article name

As far as I can tell, the following articles from the WP:FRAT watch list have Fraternity or Sorority in the name of the article, but *not* as a DAB term. I'd like opinions on whether the page should be moved to another pagename and if so, what...

Naraht (talk) 13:57, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Okay, having checked through the list (and ignoring ΚΔΦ): all but Sigma Rho are natural disambiguators. Triangle and Rainbow both have primary topics in the way, and the rest all have dabs. On that note, Delta and Adelante do not mention either fraternity (should they?). Since Sigma Rho was already a redirect to the longer title I shortened it. Primefac (talk) 06:06, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Honor Society Caucus

Copying from Talk:Infobox Fraternity so we have a wider audience.

Looks like we will need another affiliation group. Four of the premier Honor societies have formed a consortium called Honor Society Caucus. No WP article yet. These are: Phi Beta Kappa, Phi Kappa Phi, Sigma Xi, and Omicron Delta Kappa.[1][2] Jax MN (talk) 21:51, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

And the website for honorsociety.org looks wierd. I wouldn't trust that this is a real thing if it wasn't mentioned on the ODK website. And I *still* haven't found when it came into existance.Naraht (talk) 18:30, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
No article, no way. Primefac (talk) 19:16, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
I agree with you, Primefac. The organization may have come together quite recently, and must have its own WP article first. Even so, with participants like this it is probably reasonable to fast track drafting of an article once the group is proven to be legitimate. Jax MN (talk) 21:51, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
Circling back on this, I created a REDIRECT for Honor Society Caucus, as a subheader among former ACHS members. Without a more substantial website for the group, that should be sufficient. My sense is that this is a low-budget lobbying consortium without the cost burden of the more extensive services offered by the ACHS (or PFA for that matter. Jax MN (talk) 22:39, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Honors Societies - Honors College - Purdue University". honors.purdue.edu. Retrieved 2021-09-06.
  2. ^ "Honor Society Caucus | Honor Society". www.honorsociety.org. Retrieved 2021-09-06.

Honor society fees

I've been involved in a series of recent updates to the article for the National Society of Collegiate Scholars (NSCS), a current ACHS member, and have also worked on a re-sorting of the Honor society page. Project participants, please take a look.

Among the honor societies, we see several models:

  1. The first that come to mind are the old-line, venerable groups like Phi Beta Kappa, ODK, Alpha Chi and Mortar Board, which serve wide sections of the student population. ΦΒΚ of course is limited to the Liberal Arts and Sciences ("sciences" here to be understood to be those within the Liberal Arts), while Sigma Xi, always aligned to the hard sciences (~STEM), is more focused on post-collegiate achievement. Tau Beta Pi of course is for all engineering fields. But none of these are discipline-specific or major-specific.
  2. The largest grouping of honor societies ARE discipline-specific; many of these serve a single field, like Beta Beta Beta for biology, or Alpha Nu Sigma for nuclear engineering. There are probably 100 of these. Some are "labors of love", run by volunteers, with low fees and little overhead. Some are 'captive' as an offshoot of a professional society or even a professional fraternity, such as how Pi Lambda Theta (honor) is now a part of Phi Delta Kappa (professional). They will offer varying amounts of post-graduate communication; often with a magazine, some even have a peer-reviewed journal.
  3. A third grouping seems, to me, to be mimicking the old line, general groups, but these came along later. Delta Epsilon Sigma, for example, came about in 1939 and has a Catholic affinity. Makes sense. The Eagle Scout affinity honor society, Epsilon Tau Pi is another example. Participants must be Eagle Scouts. Sigma Alpha Lambda was formed only 20 years ago, and is attempting to be a catch-all, emphasizing leadership, serving all disciplines, only requiring a 3.0 GPA, and having a significant interest in philanthropy. They're not breaking the bank with a basic lifetime fee of $59, but may have higher tiers: I wanted to research them further, but my antivirus noticed their website had a trojan alert. [1]
  4. There are even pricier outliers, like NSCS, that make up a fourth group. These have higher fees, market themselves heavily, and may or may not have a charitable foundation. They may indeed be owned by a single individual, operating as a "not-for-profit" but nevertheless providing big salaries. This fourth segment are the groups that get questioned the most: "Is this honor society worth it?" Even with accreditation as NSCS claims, one sees these questions arise.

My point: I was thinking, what if we created a standard subheader of Finances and fees for each of the honor societies? It's pretty clear that while most of the honor societies have reasonable budgets, one-time fees, even volunteer labor, others are cloaked in promotion and charge 10x or more of what the traditional societies charge. A summary section for each honor society that describes current salaries and fees (like we just did with NSCS) may help spotlight this issue, and I think would be very interesting for readers. Your thoughts? Jax MN (talk) 00:27, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Sigma Alpha Lambda was questioned in this newspaper editorial, accessed 14 Nov 2021.

Alpha Kappa Alpha FAR

I have nominated Alpha Kappa Alpha for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Bumbubookworm (talk) 19:59, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

NIC drops

From viewing the current state of the North American Interfraternity Conference vs. https://nicfraternity.org/member-fraternities/ , it appears the following six fraternities are no longer members of the NIC (and have left in the last year or so)

  • Alpha Gamma Sigma
  • Lambda Phi Epsilon
  • Phi Lambda Chi
  • Sigma Lambda Beta
  • Sigma Phi
  • Tau Phi Sigma

Any ideas?Naraht (talk) 18:23, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

I haven't heard much on this front. These are small organizations, and may have cost pressure. I've heard some disagreement over lobbying direction, but this might be code for a more fundamental impasse over the response to various attempts to exert heightened administrative control over Greek Life. The larger nationals seemed to want a more aggressive pushback. The NIC (and NPC) have many small fires to put out. Jax MN (talk) 09:11, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Yearbook list - need content, need categories

I created a page yesterday with links that have helped my Fraternity and Sorority research. It may help you. --It's a list of free, online, searchable collegiate yearbooks. Two requests:

  1. If you can offer additional yearbooks, (Hathi Trust, etc.), please add them.
  2. The article needs categories -- not my area of expertise. Might one of you who is a "categorization pro" please assist?

List of US collegiate yearbooks         Jax MN (talk) 18:11, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Lots of small fraternity categories proposed for deletion.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2021_November_19#Small_fraternity_categories . I can see their reasons, I'm not sure what the good reasons are for keeping it (other than organization). Looks like a lot of these categories are just Mu Mu Mu and List of Mu Mu Mu brothers. Ideas? Naraht (talk) 17:32, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

I think the proposed deletion is shortsighted. You do more work with categories than I do, but my sense is that these categories are placeholders now that will eventually be used on pages for the founders of the various fraternities, on the lists of notable members, and on those members' articles, if they are written. So the typical category when fully deployed would be used far more often than just the fraternity page and chapter list pages. I see no sense in deleting these while we are still building out these associated Greek Letter Organization pages.
The rush to delete these is another example of old thinking, as if we were low on storage space.
I was waiting to respond to this until you had weighed in. I would vote to KEEP. Jax MN (talk) 18:23, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
Place Holders can be recreated and the question is whether these groups are such that the founders and notable members are enough for pages. I hope to respond today, but this may be a case where the rules are such that these should.Naraht (talk) 15:50, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
Note, this proposal was defeated. The categories remain. Jax MN (talk) 03:12, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Pi Kappa Alpha

Would someone from this WikiProject mind taking a look at this IP edit at Pi Kappa Alpha. It basically removed all the negative content about the fraternity that had been added to the article. Perhaps the content was a bit undue and needs to be reworked a bit, but it seems that fraternities in general only receive media coverage when someone does something wrong. I figured it would be better for some editors more familiar with this type article to assess things and see if there’s anything to the IP’s edit. — Marchjuly (talk) 13:35, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Marchjuly If it hadn't been reverted, I would have. I don't have a major problem with the article portion as written, it may suffer a *little* from being forced from what feels like a bullet list to prose, but not too much. I don't have a good feeling for which of these are truly national media, but the few I checked weren't school newspapers. Stone Foltz is already listed in the deaths (It was the one at BGSU), should probably be made a subsection of the deaths section, and *maybe* trimmed a little, the list of charges are over in the Death of Stone Foltz article. Naraht (talk) 15:21, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
Hello Marchjuly - This is long, but I think is a perennial issue so I thought I'd frame it this way. I saw that section-blanking last night, and knew that it would soon be reverted. Big picture: We see this kind of thing four or five times per year among the Greek Letter Organizations: For those just catching up, I'd describe it as emotionally-invested editors making every effort to ascribe individual member or local chapter misconduct as being somehow systemic throughout a fraternity, and coloring an article so that all chapters, all history and the substance of a summary article must be viewed through a tainted lens. A tragic incident gets spotlighted, and takes over a large portion of a GLO article, and is rabidly defended from any cuts or neutral framing because of References! Seeing this becomes disheartening to new editors, who hate to see bad press about "their" group, and some rush to delete embarrassing or damning content in articles to which they feel personally connected. The cycle of edit wars begins, and interested newbie editors get pissed off, and walk away. The truth here should be in a Goldilocks zone: properly weighted, without staining the entire fraternity, nor omitting the fact of the tragedy.
I try to focus my editing on process, and on format improvements. Unless egregious, I let others who are closer to the situation delete or edit these comments, the fresh ones at least. First, inclusion may be defensible, because the news is topical. In the Stone Foltz case, this tragedy happened only earlier this year, and the young man died. It's so horrible to see this occur, and certainly, the situation was unequivocally notable.
We Project participants add value when we moderate for WP:NPOV (Again, you certainly know this, but I am writing for a broader audience.). We ought to be consistent, cleaning up articles where NPOV is violated due to undue sensationalism, piling on, and where text doesn't fit within the scope of a summary article. That said, here's what many of us do:
  1. Where these pop up, we remove them from article ledes, and from the top of the fold body text. The place for them is in a section about chapter-specific problems.
  2. Change the subheaders from "Controversies" to "Local chapter or individual member misconduct" --> "Controversies" is just lazy writing. Nothing controversial about a death. But neither are these incidents systemic - I can think of two or three situations where a failing or misconduct may have been -- in part -- systemic.
  3. Remove old incidents that are relatively minor: These are "Dog bites Man" stories, like where a chapter was suspended in 1985 when alcohol was served to underage attendees at a fraternity party. The NOPV view is, without further extraordinary circumstances, this is not newsworthy, nor worthy of inclusion in a summary article.
  4. Where a matter is closed, like a chapter in Tennessee suspended for two years, which has long since been restored or the sentence has concluded, we remove those bullets. --> In a few cases this ought to be a footnote against the chapter's line in a chapter list. But certainly not on a front page article about the national fraternity.
  5. The body text noting any misconduct, usually a bulleted item, should be neutral in phrasing, clearly avoid emotional wording, and not overstate the matter. Valid citations are essential.
  6. Contributors should be mindful that fraternity and sorority chapters constantly refresh with new members. Those who may have been expelled decades ago are many generations of recruitment beyond the current members. Do we blame children for the sins of their parents? Where does corporate (group) punishment end, and the situation evolve into a lesson for us all?
  7. On that last point, remember, the rats often scatter with the first sign of trouble. Thus the young people who remain in a chapter that has suffered a tragedy are often innocent, along with being generations removed.
  8. Why should a fraternity, 30 years later, be labeled a 'hazing' house, or 'sexual assault' zone? In spite of constant refreshing of members, often the chapters where a major tragedy has occurred have the pain of the event seared in their collective memories, and IF those chapters survive my experience shows they often evolve into much safer places than their peers.
I personally favor keeping a record of some of these items as teachable points, so those of us who are advisors can speak about them, and teach, "don't do that." I don't want to shove these events down the memory hole. Stories are memorable, and help young people especially, to learn. Jax MN (talk) 18:07, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
Thank you Naraht and Jax MN for taking a look at this and for the comments. I didn't immediately revert (even though I thought it might be justifiable) because I wanted some other input on the chance that some of the removed content probably shouldn't have been added to begin with. I don't think articles such as this should be unduely focused on negative content, and I'm sure many probably get skewed in that direction over the years for WP:NOTHERE reasons by persons with a particular ax to grind; at the same time, however, significant events (positive or negative) that have received reasonable coverage probably warrant inclusion as long as doing so can be done in accordance with relevant Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and is considered encyclopedically relevant to a general understanding of the article subject. In this particular case, the IP might have a valid point with respect to some of the content, but their edit seemed to go too far in the other direction and thus I felt needed to at least be assessed by editors more familiar with this type of article. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:03, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Infobox Fraternity needed

The following pages have the lang grc template we added to the Greek letters, aren't DAB pages, but don't have infobox fraternity. A few have infobox organization.

Thought it might be useful as a guide.Naraht (talk) 14:34, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you! As we correct each of these, let's indicate that the infobox is added with "- updated" after the name. Jax MN (talk) 15:40, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
Naraht, I've been working through this list. Just noticed that Zeta Delta Xi wasn't on it, so I added it. However, if you used an algorithm to filter these, would you investigate why it didn't pick up Zeta Delta Xi in your first pass? There may be others... Jax MN (talk) 16:54, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
Cap and Skull is another one. Jax MN (talk) 17:10, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
As I indicated at the top, I looked for pages that had the {{lang|grc| that we added for Greek Letters and didn't have infobox fraternity (or one of the equivalents). Zeta Delta Xi doesn't have greek letters, and Alpha Upsilon Alpha didn't have the lang grc until you added it. I'm going to add the Greek letters to Zeta Delta Xi.Naraht (talk) 08:06, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
Project team, I've been pushing through the main list, with a few to go on Naraht's second list. Three items remain for the articles listed above:
  • Association for Women in Communications - no change yet (They're now so divergent from a Greek group, is a different infobox template needed?)
  • Sigma Pi - infobox updated, needs editing for potential peacock language. Volunteer?
  • Phi Tau Theta - infobox updated, still needs crest or badge (I can't find one).
I'll continue to work through Naraht's second list (below), with updates noted. Any others? Jax MN (talk) 06:41, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Slightly different list

I generated the list of all pages whose names are entirely English spelling of Greek letters (no DAB terms!), compared using my computer with the list of those pages that have infobox fraternity and generated the list of those in group 1, but not group 2. I then eliminated those with only one letter, and looked through the rest eliminating dab pages and anything completely non Greek Letter Organization related (like Xi Xi) The remaining are

This second list has been updated. Jax MN (talk) 06:41, 23 December 2021 (UTC) One item remains:

WP:FRAT Disambig-Class

I seems to me that the expected use of {{WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities|class=disambig}} is when all (or most) of the choices are greek letter organizations. For example Delta Phi Epsilon or Phi Tau (disambiguation). It seems a little odd to have it on disambiguation pages like NPC where there are dozens of entries, and only one deals with the project in any way.Naraht (talk) 14:12, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

The standard that I'm trying to stick to as I add them is that more than one of the choices is WPFRAT related. So that's mostly been ones where multiple groups have shared the same set of Greek Letters like Delta Phi Epsilon . By that standard, the entry should be removed from most of the Acronym pages like NPC.Naraht (talk) 20:15, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Lambda Sigma Upsilon

Looking for additional eyes on the Lambda Sigma Upsilon. I just had a *very* unfriendly conversation with a board member over chat (looked me up in real life). I definitely expect additional NNPOV edits on the article. He simply doesn't understand WP:OWN.Naraht (talk) 19:32, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

My favourite reason for watchlisting a page :-) Primefac (talk) 19:36, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Deletion of Graphics

There is a current discussion regarding the deletion of a graphic on an article I monitor. You might wish to review this. Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2022 January 12#File:Bronko Nagurski.jpg

I have uploaded many fair use graphics, both for infobox identification and to help make articles more visually interesting. I prefer use of graphics where available as a tool for readability. I was informed by another editor that, although it seems redundant, EACH instance of a properly cited graphic must have a separate rationale for use. Alrighty, no problem - I quickly adjusted the image to reflect this second rationale. However this editor persisted in removing the graphic, here, in this section: List of fraternities and sororities at the University of Minnesota#Traditions. I reverted that deletion, and improved the language that referenced Narugski in the body text, adding two additional references. The matter is now being discussed, but Project participants may not be aware of that discussion. Please look it up, if so inclined. Similar random deletions may impact pages you curate. Several views are shared. Jax MN (talk) 04:28, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Please don't WP:CANVAS for !votes at an XFD discussion. If you're not sure what that means, please read WP:INAPPNOTE. A simple Template:Please see is more than sufficient in such cases. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:14, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

SUNY ban

The State University of New York article says that the SUNY ban on fraternities in 1953 was only for those that discriminated by race or creed. I was under the impression that they banned *all* fraternities and sororites. Delta Kappa and the Alpha Delta sorority whose article that I'm working on don't appear to have had race/creed limitations. Do we have any examples of national fraternities that weren't hit by this? I know there are members of the NIC that had both white, black and Jewish members by then (and I can't imagine a national fraternity that had representatives of all three would likely have any such requirements (We allow all races except Belgians?) Any ideas?

I'll keep researching, maybe I'll end up with enough for an article. :)Naraht (talk) 14:48, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
I thought I had recalled a recap of the battle over this issue, either in an edition of Baird's or in a Banta excerpt I'd seen. I skimmed my copy of Baird's 20th edition and didn't find anything. But if memory serves, there was a significant pushback over this issue by one of the fraternities. I will let you know if I find an article. The NIC, or the archive at Illinois may have a file on this. Jax MN (talk) 04:38, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
I need to look through the 1957 Baird's, I think that's a likely place?Naraht (talk) 17:23, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
I found it. 19th ed (1977) of Baird's, pp.837-838. Do you have a copy? Might I scan it for you? Jax MN (talk) 17:33, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
Jax MN I do, just not handy ATM. The wife is sleeping in the room where it is. I'll take a look there. We've made articles out of Baird's plus one or two other references, so I think we can do it.Naraht (talk) 01:57, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Naraht, as Baird's sometimes adjusts their content over time, earlier editions may have a fuller treatment of the SUNY issue. The 19th edition may only have their final summary of an issue that was given further detail in the 16th, 17th and 18th editions. Jax MN (talk) 03:19, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Jax MN Given that I have all of them printed after 1954, I'll check each.Naraht (talk) 03:27, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Please look at Sigma Alpha Epsilon

Question talk page as to whether Business Insider and the contents represent a valid reference for the meaning of the Motto Phi Alpha.Naraht (talk) 15:27, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree that esoteric mottos and their meanings ought to be suppressed. This group might help: Wikipedia:Oversight - Primefac participates in this type of administration. Jax MN (talk) 18:49, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
That is not suppressible content. Primefac (talk) 18:56, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
Hello Primefac. How is esoteric content - such as rituals or fraternal secrets handled when it comes to printed or website 'exposures' that occasionally come to light? Fraternal groups typically copyright this material, but not always; I've seen things like Masonic rituals exposed and in print. The media whereby they are published may or may not be a Reliable Source, but that seems to me to be a backstop argument. The "Business Insider" publication also surprised me - why would they bother? I certainly wouldn't suppress mention of legal misdeeds, properly cited, summarized and if notable, but has there ever been a serious discussion of what to do about ritual esoteria, where the fraternity doesn't want something harmless to be published? Jax MN (talk) 03:49, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
If it's a copyright violation, then it's the territory of RD1. Anything else fails to meet the RD criteria or OS criteria. Primefac (talk) 10:25, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Ethyl Hedgeman Lyle spelling

Little bit different than some of our discussions. Please take a look at the discussion at Talk:Ethel_Hedgeman_Lyle#"Hedgemon" in regards to the spelling of the article's name. Apparently, in the last two weeks, AKA has changed the spelling of the name on their national website from Hedgeman to Hedgemon.Naraht (talk) 14:26, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Draft: Epsilon Chi Nu

Would appreciate additional eyes on Draft:Epsilon Chi Nu. Has cycled by original author twice through WP:REFUND, I finally decided to change to the infobox and then research. I've got a few more references that I can find, but the book (Brothers and Sisters: Diversity in College Fraternities and Sororities) seems pretty solid even though most of their footnotes are to primary sources. I'm also not sure what to do with trying to find a common way of indicating that there is conflict as to which is older Epsilon Chi Nu or Phi Sigma Nu. Naraht (talk) 15:39, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

I think the onus is on Epsilon Chi Nu to prove they are older. It seems suspect to me that they claim a date of 1/1/1996, conveniently just a month earlier than Phi Sigma Nu. I do not have access to the book referenced, but would accept it as a source for founding dates, if it cites them. Jax MN (talk) 18:24, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Current list of F/S Drafts.

At varying levels of quality ranging from bleh to possibly ready to mainspace.

Naraht (talk) 18:44, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

German National Honor Society

Could someone take a look at the Official website for German National Honor Society / Delta Phi Alpha. It appears that in *most* cases, like the bylaws, Delta Phi Alpha is used first and in the sort form. Also, finding some secondary references for the page would be nice.Naraht (talk) 01:57, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Images of Pins

Is it a general agreement that pictures of brotherhood/sisterhood pins and pledge pins are appropriate on the pages of organizations covered by this project? (No more than one brotherhood/sisterhood pin and one pledge pin in general)Naraht (talk) 03:58, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Fraternity founder lists

"Resolved: The names of the people that a Fraternity/Sorority (normally Social, Service or Professional) considers its founders are valid to include in the article about them and count as a part of the history that under most circumstances can come from a primary source".Naraht (talk) 17:09, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Where was this discussion? Primefac (talk) 17:32, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
I'm starting it. My apologies if it was confusing, I was putting it in High School Debate form.PrimefacNaraht (talk) 01:56, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
I support - I appreciate the fact that over a decade and a half, a more standardized stylesheet or template has developed through the work of this Project team, consisting of an infobox, w/ crest and pin graphics, and with body text sections for formation (with founders), history (milestones), symbols, sometimes a mission, crest or creed, a chapter list, a list of notable members (potentially), potentially a list of local chapter or member misconduct, and External links. Standardization helps casual readers navigate. While lists of founders are sometimes a vector for vandalism, it is a simple matter to roll them back. It would be rather awkward if not absurd to trim these article3s to start with a paragraph stating that "a new society had formed, by 12 students at a midwestern school" but we're not going to give you any more detail than that. Huh? What a useless article that would be. Jax MN (talk) 03:38, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
I have no issue with a list of blue-linked (i.e. notable) founders being included in a "Founding" section of an article, as seen in Alpha Phi Alpha or Phi Mu Alpha, but I also note that in the second example we only list those blue-linked members. Having a list of essentially (as I have stated in other places) "20 random names" helps no one. As an example, who is "George H. Campbell" you ask? He was one of the founding members in the first chapter of Phi Mu Alpha, but he's not a notable individual and thus he is not listed on ΦΜΑ's page. Additionally, I see no encyclopedic value to this list I removed from Lambda Sigma Upsilon.
Given that there are only three of us that are anywhere towards "reasonably active" in this chapter, I feel like we'll need either an RFC or some form of cross-posting to a different venue to get more uninvolved opinions on this matter, because I don't think we'll be able to reasonably reach a consensus between the three of us (unless I somehow manage to convince you both to see my point of view). Primefac (talk) 10:44, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
PrimefacAlpha Phi Alpha has four which have articles, the other three are links back to Alpha Phi Alpha founding. And I see no list for Phi Mu Alpha.Naraht (talk) 18:51, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
That's exactly my point. Primefac (talk) 18:52, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
I would oppose a list, but am ok with prose. --Enos733 (talk) 04:24, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

User script to detect unreliable sources

Main page: User:Headbomb/unreliable

I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like

  • John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14. (John Smith "[https://www.deprecated.com/article Article of things]" ''Deprecated.com''. Accessed 2020-02-14.)

and turns it into something like

It will work on a variety of links, including those from {{cite web}}, {{cite journal}} and {{doi}}.

The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.

Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.

- Headbomb {t · c · p · b}

This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:01, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Published Esoterica

Have an issue right now over at Groove Phi Groove from someone claiming to be President of GPhiG trying to remove referenced information on esoteric reasons for the parts of their Coat of Arms from article. In this case, the reference is to an issue of the Howard University Hilltop (which, BTW, is online). In this case, I don't think the GPHiG President (claimed) has much of a chance. We've *long* since decided that describing/showing a fraternity's Coat of Arms is appropriate, including the information that (example) the 6 rubies on the Coat of Arms are for the 6 founders seems quite appropriate, if referenced.

It does lead to the following questions

  1. ) are there any RS issues for a school newspaper (I don't think so, though that may ultimately be the *only* avenue this person has)
  2. ) Just how much of a fraternity/sorority ritual is appropriate to include in an article, if referenced. Let's say that the Washington Post publishes the ritual for Zeta Beta Tau, how much should be included.
  3. ) Does it make a difference if the group no longer exists? Merged?

Naraht (talk) 05:09, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

To answer your questions:
  1. No, assuming it meets our normal "this is not a garbage source" criteria.
  2. I do not think it is neither necessary nor appropriate to include ritual details, even if referenced, unless something specific about that ritual has received wide-spread press (e.g. "the ritual, which involves sexual acts and a goat, has been widely condemned by the university..."). At best the ritual is trivial information, providing little if any encyclopedic information.
  3. No.
Going back to GΦG, though, asking the question "why does the shield have these symbols" is a reasonable question to ask, and if there is a reliable source indicating the heraldry then I see no reason why it wouldn't be included (though obviously local consensus from a talk page discussion can always override anything we discuss here). Primefac (talk) 08:35, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
  1. Not The Harvard Crimson, but still with some level of institutional control.
  2. I think the split here is between the ritual(Other than the sex/goat) and the "Payoff". At least for my fraternity, *most* of the things revealed after oath is taken might belong in the article if published in a reliable source, specifically, the reason for those *particular* letters, the reason for most of the pieces of the Coat of Arms (and pin), and *maybe* the handshake (may be a few others for other groups).Naraht (talk) 15:20, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Tau Beta Pi link fix

Can somebody help fix the links real fast on Tau Beta Pi? I used a Cite Web format to add Tom Scholz and Mark Rober to the list of notable members, but for some reason the reference is not formatting right and is looking weird in the footnotes. Xboxtravis7992 (talk) 02:22, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

You missed the second } in the cite web. Fixed, though I didn't mess with the date values so those will need adjusting. Primefac (talk) 09:03, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
Fixed dates, added Columbia since those listed included one who died on that space shuttle.Naraht (talk) 13:59, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Additional Alpha Delta Phi

As an additional question (inviting Geterpoldstein ). Should List of Alpha Delta Phi members be altered to indicate Fraternity prior to split vs. Fraternity vs. Society? (my guess is that most are Fraternity prior to split, so ADPhiS would claim as well) (see https://www.adps.org/home/society/notable-alpha-delts/ for how ADPS does it) Naraht (talk) 14:26, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Fantastic! Are you going to work on this or do you want me to? Or both of us? Rublamb (talk) 15:45, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
RublambMy concern is basically relative to above. Does it make a difference in terms of the chapters or the main article being split in regards to keeping the list of notables together?Naraht (talk) 17:52, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
Naraht At first, my thought was to just link to the main article of notable members of Alpha Delta Phi. However, the list you found on the Society's website made it much easier to separate the notables between the two organizations. Having now really looked at their history, I believe someone needs to have joined after the separation in 1992 or, if we are being generous, after the original five chapters went coed. Having reviewed the notables on the Society's website, there is only one person who joined after 1992 and no one who joined during the coed/still in the fraternity era. That one notable does have a Wikipedia article, but I cannot find a source other than the Society's website that says he is a member. Thus, this seems to be a non-issue at this point. Do you agree? Rublamb (talk) 03:25, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
Rublamb Seems reasonable. Unless there are a large number of notables with pages who are members after 1992 (which is possible, but not likely) I think we can leave things as they are. Someone who is an alumnus of Brown from the 1920s would, IMO, quite rightly be considered a notable alumnus by both groups. At this point, a template might make sense to connect the ADPhi pages.Naraht (talk) 18:45, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for all the work on this. Considering the conjoined histories of the two groups, I think it fair to add a custom column noting original formation as a Fraternity chapter, and a second showing declaration or installation as a Society chapter. I'll work on this. (Crazy busy time with the holidays, end-of-year, and work responsibilities.) Jax MN (talk) 20:09, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
Looks good. Thanks for helping. Any chance you know how to get rid of a redirect so we can make this article live? Apparently I can add the crest back when the article is published. Rublamb (talk) 02:27, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
Getting rid of a redirect, you mean moving the page from Draftspace to mainspace?Naraht (talk) 02:30, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
Yes, but we have to either delete or merge with the existing redirect for the society. Rublamb (talk) 08:27, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
Yep. I just fussed with it a bit, but was unable to copy/paste and replace the redirect with the draft page content. Strange. I must be missing something. Jax MN (talk) 07:08, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
I think I have done this before, but cannot remember how. Editing the redirect sounds right.Rublamb (talk) 08:26, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
@Jax MN I was able to change the redirect page and publish the article. Now I need an admin to delete the draft. When I did this before, the draft was in my sandbox so I could make the deletion. Unless a bot will figure this out... Thanks Rublamb (talk) 15:25, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
Reverted what I did because, the more I thought about it, cutting and pasting is a merger without moving the background data. I tried turning the redirect page into a disambiguation page (which is marginally needed). That works, but I am back to not being able to publish unless I change the name or an admin deletes the old Society redirect page. Bummer. Rublamb (talk) 21:28, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
Request the deletion for move. Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests.Naraht (talk) 22:07, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
I requested.Naraht (talk) 17:20, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

List of Alpha Delta Phi chapters

Could members please take a look at List of Alpha Delta Phi chapters#The Society for opinions on the chapter list relative to the Fraternity/Society separation?Naraht (talk) 04:26, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

To clarity, should we split the fraternity and the society into two articles. Thanks. Rublamb (talk) 13:48, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
The second is a very small table for an article of its own. If it's going to go anywhere that isn't "where it's currently at", it should probably go back to the main page on ΑΔΦ. Primefac (talk) 14:08, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
I'm fine with indicating either here or on the talk page for the chapters. I'd prefer that the current page situation remain, but perhaps with additional information on the top of the chapters page.Naraht (talk) 14:20, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
Not a new list page, but a full article on the co-ed social and literary Society that would include a list of chapters (both active and inactive). Does that make more sense? Rublamb (talk) 01:59, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
Rublamb. The question is whether the Society by itself would have sufficient notability to be its own article. 80%+ of the Society's history is in common with the Fraternity. If there is no separate Society page, then I think the current situation for chapters makes the most sense. And splitting the notable Alumni between F&S into separate pages isn't even something that the Society does. (Its notable Alumni list includes all of both, with a notation of F for those in chapters that have stayed in the Fraternity, F/S for those from chapters which joined the Society but were alumni prior to the split and S for those who became members of the Society). Having said that, I think that there are several places including the header where the Society needs to be mentioned more prominantly. Naraht (talk) 16:25, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
@Naraht and @Jax MN. It Took me a while to get around to it, but cranked out a Draft:Alpha Delta Phi Society today. It is now ready for your consideration. I found that the two do have common history but the emphasis within that history is different. I have not yet pulled current news coverage for charitable work. Also, need to find a source for the most recent agreement (text borrowed from the Alpha Delta Phi article which is unsourced). The society's magazine in online, so that will not be a problem. I think I can also find more news coverage to replace the society as a source, but want to get your thoughts on this before I put more time into it. Also, I need help on how to publish an article that has the same name as a redirect. Thanks. Rublamb (talk) 03:37, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
Rublamb I'd personally have put the date of chartering within the Alpha Delta Phi fraternity into the main table, but unless someone else thinks it should go that way, I'm not wedded to that. I changed a few occurances of Alpha Delta Psi to Alpha Delta Phi, I presume they were mistakes. I agree on making it more secondary sources.Naraht (talk) 18:41, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
I followed the Almanac on the dates. Also, if these are two organizations, we always use the transfer/merger date in the table, with the date of prior organization as a note. This will also match up with the way the fraternity lists these chapters--as ending in 1992. Thanks for the copy edit! Rublamb (talk) 19:00, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
Additionally, having links to individual chapters in External Links is pretty much not done as far as I know.Naraht (talk) 23:03, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Draft:Alpha Pi Sigma

I've upgraded Draft:Alpha Pi Sigma with a few more college newspapers and a couple of other entries. Could someone else take a look at it to see if they think it is ready for mainspace?Naraht (talk) 20:42, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Glad you found this to fix! I copy edited and, using the Almanac and the newspaper sources you found, was able to remove or replace most of the references from the sororities website. I don't think any of the former objections apply now. BTW, the Almanac shows Gamma chapter as dormant; the national website does not mention this. I did not look for a chapter website or social media to determine which is right, but went with the Almanac since it is the secondary source. If you want to see what you can find, the table and the two mentions of the number of chapters would need to be updated. Rublamb (talk) 23:31, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
Moved to mainspace. :) There are three chapters without links from the national website including Gamma, so it makes sense that that one might be dormant/inactive. Others are Lambda at UCSB and Omicron at Cal State -Sacramento. Not sure if they are active though. I'll do more research when I can.Naraht (talk) 00:44, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Sorority Founders - Maiden Name vs Married name how to show.

Among the founders of Mu Mu Mu is a woman who was born Jane Roberts and after college married Adam Taylor. Should she be shown as

  • Jane Roberts
  • Jane Taylor
  • Jane Roberts Taylor
  • Jane (Roberts) Taylor
  • Jane Roberts (Taylor)

or something else. In most cases this would effect the entire list of founders...Naraht (talk) 02:09, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Depends on what the RS say about her, i.e. we'd need to deal with it on a case-by-case basis. Of course, if she does not have an article in the first place, I still maintain that we are unlikely to need her name listed. Primefac (talk) 08:00, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
An elementary difference between us. If Mu Mu Mu specifically says they have 5 founders, four of which went on to be independently wikinotable, listing only those four on the Mu Mu Mu article seems *very* incomplete.Naraht (talk) 14:05, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
Your example is the reason I said "unlikely" and not "never", but the first part of my response still applies - if the sources (of the day, today, etc) all relatively agree, then we should use those. Primefac (talk) 09:27, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Initcap redirects, always make, never make, who cares?

From a deletion discussion on Phi nu pi as a redirect to Kappa Alpha Psi, I noticed that for most of the GLOs that were early additions to wikipedia, that it seems to be consistent that an "first letter of entire name capitalized" redirect was created, i.e. Alpha phi omega, Kappa alpha psi, Delta delta delta, Sigma nu. Should this always be done, never be done (and delete the old) or does it just not matter?Naraht (talk) Naraht (talk) 13:06, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. alpha phi omega and Alpha phi omega point to the same page due to the MediaWiki settings, so I doubt they were looking to specifically say "let's capitalise just the first Greek letter". If you're asking "should we create a lowercase variant of every GLO", then no, I think that's probably unnecessary. Primefac (talk) 13:26, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
No, the very first letter "has" to be capitalized (yes, I know alpha Kappa Delta Phi, that's a different issue). So, and I'm just picking this out at random, we should neither go out of our way to create Alpha kappa rho (not a page), nor get rid of Sigma nu (is a page), correct?Naraht (talk) 12:20, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
You're missing my point about the first letter, but that's fine, because that's not the debate. I completely agree that we should not go out of our way to create pages like Alpha kappa rho. However, unless there is a good reason to have pages like sigma nu, I do not think we should keep those either. That being said, one mass-nomination of the ~90 pages linked at User:Naraht/Greek letter titles would probably suffice to deal with them. Primefac (talk) 12:29, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
I support whatever you come up with. I don't think we need redirects that have lower case common misspellings, but I do not know how WP manages this on a meta level and would leave this to you. In my own use of WP, breezing through, I sometimes miss capitalizing when I type into the search field, but typically find the correct page pops up in first position. Hence these redirects are somewhat invisible to me. Jax MN (talk) 16:34, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
Primefac that is list is from 2015, but shouldn't be too bad to get someone to regenerate. If you'd like to make a mass delete, I'll look to regenerate and then clip it down to any that have a space followed by a lower case letter which should be what we want. Jax MNNote, I see the redirects more since I not only have redirects as a differently colored link, I also have a tool that causes me to stop on redirect pages rather than moving on to what it redirects to.Naraht (talk) 19:30, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
Primefac got it regenerated, limited it to those with a space followed by a lowercase letter and checked they were all redirects (some are redirects to dab pages) and removed the one that was a normal article (Tau tau). I think right now the list has 97 entries.Naraht (talk) 14:33, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
Is there a standard, or common practice here for other categories? My aim would be clarity, and redirects can be valuable where they aren't obvious. But upper case/lower case seems to be handled by Wikipedia's metadata, isn't it? If the correct article shows up in bold text as an option when you begin to fill in the search field, doesn't that serve our purpose? We certainly have the space, so I am not looking to delete redirects for the sake of clearing redundancy, but if it cleans up any confusion I'm all for it. We've cleaned up many articles that veer from a standard naming convention ("Inc." in the title, standardization of parenthetical modifiers like "(professional)", "(local)", "(honor)", etc.) I recall that one local chapter with an identical name to a national GLO used lower case to distinguish itself. If memory serves, we renamed that with "(local)" after the properly capitalized name, for consistency. Jax MN (talk) 15:38, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
Other situations like this are generally grouped into Category:Redirects_from_miscapitalisations by the appropriate template. I'm just not sure these even have as much value as the entries in that. aKDPhi is pretty unique and having the alpha be uncapitalized is wierd enough that I can't imagine anyone making the assumption for other groups.Naraht (talk) 15:55, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
So mass delete of those at User:Naraht/Greek letter titles lower or not?Naraht (talk) 14:44, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Not a high priority, but I think it is reasonable to delete these. Jax MN (talk) 17:10, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
Yup. Primefac (talk) 18:32, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Pushback

From discussion that I had over at WT:RFD, it was noted that in general, these are merely grouped in Category:Redirects_from_miscapitalisations and pointed out that North carolina and Prince edward island were not a problem. Given that, I'm not sure there is a justification for getting rid of Alpha phi omega if Prince edward island is fine. So the question is what standard would make the geographical locations and the greek letter organizations different? There are still a few true oddballs like Beta Phi alpha (only the last lowercased) and Pi kappa alpha delta beta which redirects to Death of Stone Foltz (the chapter was Pi Kappa Alpha fraternity, Delta Beta chapter).Naraht (talk) 17:22, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

That's not necessarily pushback, just realistic opinions from individuals who are more familiar with this type of thing. Thank you for starting that discussion, as it has apparently saved us a lot of time. I maintain that there is no reason to create more of these pages, but I guess we'll just have to live with the ones we have now. Primefac (talk) 05:30, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
Fair. I do intend to mark these as being from incorrect capitalization rather than alternate. And I still think a couple of these are just wierd like the two I listed above.Naraht (talk) 14:36, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

State abbreviations

An editor recently corrected Philadelphia, PA to omit the two-letter abbreviations, rending it Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in the article, Phi Psi (professional). This was followed up by a couple of reverts, back and forth. In order to answer the issue I opened a section on the talk pages of the two non-Project editors who offered these changes.

Essentially, these were good faith, but sporadic, affecting only a single page.

I understand their concerns meet general guidance in the WP:MOS. However, for clarity and consistency, I'd like to allow for these in the table lists. Fraternity and Sorority Project participants have been rather methodical in recent years, moving chapter lists and infoboxes to adopt consistent formats, this being one of them across several thousand pages. It appears we've found that the two-letter abbreviations, with underlying WLs, get the job done, allow for a narrower table, and are thus more readable. In the infoboxes, where used in an address, they follow the standard US Postal abbreviations which casual researchers are looking for when addressing an envelope. However, in body text, or when naming the founding state and city higher up in the infobox we would normally spell out the full name of the state.

All that said, we ourselves (certainly me, myself) have not been consistent in this. Do you have thoughts on this?

It appears we can either have a table with:

ONE field for city and state: Philadelphia, PA
TWO fields for city and state: Philadelphia and separately Pennsylvania or PA (I wouldn't prefer a 2-letter abbreviation when it is in a separate field.)
Of course some chapter lists have a third, country and/or province field, as necessary.

I'll follow the consensus here. I note too that I've been blending usage of major city WLs like this: San Francisco, CA where the next line might have Grand Forks, ND

I'd like to be consistent. Wikipedia allows for deviation from the MOS where it improves clarity. Thoughts? Jax MN (talk) 19:39, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

I have always used the MOS preferred full state name rather than abbreviations because not all Wikipedia readers are from the U.S. and might not be familiar with our abbreviations. That being said, MOS:POSTABBR allows for abbreviations when not in the body of the text and where space is short; meaning someplace like our chapter tables. However, MOS also says that the template is supposed to be used in this instance. That seems unlikely to happen with occasional editors and could be an ongoing headache to fix. From a practical standpoint, it is easier to bulk-edit state abbreviations to full state names than it is to add to an existing list. If you had to guess, how many pages would need fixing to include vs. having full state names? I am willing to help either way; either is correct per MOS. Oh, and splitting city and state into two columns is okay with me, but will actually take more room and is not the way I have typically found existing data. (If this were Excel, that would be a snap to fix). I will hold off on adding locations to new tables until we resolve this.Rublamb (talk) 20:27, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
I support the adjustment of these usages in Project pages, utilizing the template. Good catch. But big project.
Articles about some very large nationals would benefit from the addition of a State column, which is how I've been approaching this for some years. Further, some nationals, often sororities, have rendered carefully formatted chapter list tables with divided sections, even if these are elaborated beyond our standard style, or these groups have adopted a state sort order instead of our standard, by date. My focus has to fix the articles that are missing lists or improving those that are incomplete or ill-formatted. I thought that later we could move toward standardization. Jax MN (talk) 20:56, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

DTS template

Another editor alerted me that the DTS template is designed for use within list tables, and not for prose. If so, A.) it would save me a lot of work, and B.) it would be a big project to revise articles where we all have used DTS in body text. Can anyone more familiar with this shed some light on the subject? Jax MN (talk) 20:45, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

I found Template:Date table sorting which does a good job of explaining why DTS template or instructions for dates are needed with sortable tables. That is the function of DTS or Date Table Sorting Template. So, it looks like you don't need to use it within a body of text--because you aren't trying to sort there. Until recently, I had avoided the issue altogether because the dates in my tables were year only. I don't think you need to remove DTS from articles (a bot will probably do it one day if it really is an issue), but I am going to have to go back and look at all those tables I recently changed to sortable. Rublamb (talk) 00:57, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
As far as I'm concerned there are three situations:
  1. Mu Gamma went international on {{dts|1960|12|05}}
  2. Intable chartering date of ''Beta chapter'' {{dts|1970|11|06}}
  3. Intable active time period of ''Gamma chapter'' {{dts|1980|10|07}}–{{dts|1990|09|08}}, {{dts|2000|08|09}}–{{dts|2010|07|10}}
The first should *not* use dts, though I'm not sure that there is any effort needed/expected to undo existing usages
The second should *always* use dts (chartering dates should always be a sortable field)
The third case, putting the second, third and fourth dates using dts isn't needed, but I find that it is easier that way if copying from a reference to make all of them in dts.Naraht (talk) 16:31, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Thank you, both. This makes sense as part of our standard syntax and format. (Naraht, I adjusted your examples above, I trust that is OK. I note the dash between dates should be an Mdash, and in the third I thought you meant to show two date ranges, one following another. The fourth of those dates was earlier than the third, and I adjusted it.) Jax MN (talk) 17:00, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Sure, though that does lead to the question of what we use to separate time periods of activity, a comma or a semi-colon. Naraht (talk) 15:21, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
I support use of commas in this situation. Jax MN (talk) 16:12, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Kappa Alpha Order question

I have the chapters for Kappa Alpha Order in my sandbox ready to publish for the substandard chapter list project. However, when I went to publish this fairly long list (Alpha through Zeta Omega with some reissues) as a new article, I learned that this had previously been an article that was deleted. Here is the deletion discussion from 2018, but it looks like there were earlier discussion as well Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Kappa Alpha Order chapters. Should I insert this list in the main article or post as a new article? It does appear that I have more content than the deleted article, but Naraht tried suggesting these additions in the deletion discussion. I am wondering if this is why some of these better know groups are missing a chapter list? Has the WP put an end to claims that these pages equal a directory listing? Rublamb (talk) 05:25, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

While editors do come and go, I think the project has had better involvement over the past few years. If the KA Order chapter list had been deleted, it may have been on spurious grounds. Go ahead and post it as a separate, linked article. It is supportable. Thanks! Jax MN (talk) 07:57, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
Done. Of course, the BOT added a link to the deletion discussion. Rublamb (talk) 17:10, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Renames

Does anyone see a reason *not* to rename Gamma Sigma Fraternity International to Gamma Sigma and the related Theta Kappa Sigma Sorority to Theta Kappa Sigma? (Note, this is *not* expressing an opinion on whether the articles should be kept.Naraht (talk) 14:00, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

I support the change, for naming consistency. Jax MN (talk) 18:55, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Draft:Greek Life at Trine University

I *think* that Draft:Greek Life at Trine University may be appropriate to work on to get to mainspace. While not everything is good (having wikilinks in section headers needs to be fixed) and it may need some rearrangement, I think it can be made good. Note, the core of the article appears to come from a Trine U employee, but I think that is OK.Naraht (talk) 20:56, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Nice catch. The mainspace article for the university itself is up to date with an extensive section on Greeks, and I agree that promoting this info over to its own page would be an improvement. That section on the University page could then become a simple summary and a hatnote. I'd want to compare versions. Jax MN (talk) 21:03, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
Did some updating and moved to mainspace. Not happy with the title, but moved to mainspace at Greek Life at Trine University , we'll take care of the technical move later. Would appreciate some eyes and (somehow) splitting notes from refs.Naraht (talk) 19:44, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
Done, back on January 27. Jax MN (talk) 17:58, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Additional Source

Professional Interfraternity Conference Survey of National Policies https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112108090371&view=1up&seq=3

Some compare and contrast, but the prize is at the end. Complete chapter lists with year for all members of the PIC and fairly completely information on why some chapters of some of the fraternities went inactive. Has some chapter lists we don't have on WikipediaNaraht (talk) 23:41, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Studentenverbindung

In general, does the project specifically support, not support or is fuzzy on articles about various Studentenverbindung in Germany and Eastern Europe. They certainly are a different tradition than those groups whose "ancestry" comes from Phi Beta Kappa/Kappa Alpha/Delta Gamma etc.Naraht (talk) 15:35, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Current list of F/S drafts

I did this back in January, but given that articles that spend more than 6 months in Draft without change, I figure, do it again. (And split by country this time) Also, I moved a couple of the European type college fraternities to mainspace.

US/Canada


Philippines

Naraht (talk) 08:58, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Progress

Just spent way too much time on Draft:Epsilon. There is no national website and no list of chapters that I could find. I have pulled together a chapter list as best as I could but there are two cases of two chapters have the same name. In one instance, this was confirmed in their individual constitutions. In other cases, the chapter doesn't use a name at all. And, of course, there appears to be unknown deceased chapters, but none that I could find in Instagram, etc. However, I do believe here are enough newspaper sources that notability is established, even if there are still too many citations from chapter websites. Will someone give it a look and publish, if you agree it is ready. Rublamb (talk) 02:44, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
RublambPublished, nice expansion. Still issues. Probably want to break some of the history section out, it doesn't relate and include a list of founders from the U of Michigan site. Needs categories.Naraht (talk) 15:43, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
Thanks. I heard back from one of the chapters I contacted (that has the duplicate name). They confirmed that there is no national website and that they had always gone by the duplicate name. Unfortunately, they could not fill in the gaps on the chapters and history. I think Alpha suddenly closing caused a loss of organizational history. I can add the Michigan founders. I am also going to reach out to them to see if they know more about the history and various chapters. It is too large of a fraternity to have so many gaps in information but, as the person who responded to me said, it is still new. Rublamb (talk) 15:51, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
I have now smoothed out the history section and moved some text to a new membership section. I spent so much time figuring out the chapters that I had neglected the narrative. It still could be expanded, especially if more secondary sources are discovered. I did reach out to the Michigan chapter to see if they have more institutional knowledge. Rublamb (talk) 17:08, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
@Naraht and @Jax MN Cannon and Castle - It really only had sources for 2 sentences; the other sources were random and not related to the content. I have now fixed that problem and have two articles from the NY Times to support notability. However, I found absolutely nothing on this group past the 1960s. The section on membership and current activities claim it functions now, but says nothing about when it reformed. There is nothing in the campus paper, Newspapers.com, the Yale ROTC webpage, Instagram, or Facebook that I can find. Maybe this was a new revival, matching ROTC's return to campus in 2012? I need help deciding the next step. I can cut the modern, unsourced info and publish the historic content. Or we publish as is, going back to add "citations needed" notes for those specific sections later. Of course, it might get rejected again with that major flaw of unreferenced sections. Thoughts? Rublamb (talk) 08:58, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
Published to mainspace.Naraht (talk) 16:30, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

NPC Flowers

Found while looking for Iota Alpha Pi on google. http://www.pikearchive.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/PKA_SD_1966_SEP.pdf (page 29) has the flowers for each of the members of the NPC as of 1966. I checked and we have them all, but some may not be specifically referenced. If so, we can use that Pi Kappa Alpha magazine.Naraht (talk) 18:51, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Category setup for founders of groups that died without successor

Someone has linked one of the founders of Alpha Mu Sigma. Should it just go into Category:College_fraternity_founders or should it go in other/additional categories?Naraht (talk) 16:04, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

I think for sure that Category:College_fraternity_founders would be the most helpful. I don't think a further division would be useful. Jax MN (talk) 16:15, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
Added. Now all we need is a reference to show they are the same person. I called Cooper Union and left a message.Naraht (talk) 18:50, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Splitting Category:Historically Jewish fraternities and sororities in the United States

Does anyone have an issue with splitting Category:Historically Jewish fraternities and sororities in the United States into male and female so that the sororities can be placed as a subcat of Category:Jewish women's organizations? (adding Qualiesin who put the Pi Alpha Tau sorority into Category:Jewish women's organizations) and if so, should we keep the existing cat as a supercat of those two? (I don't think any of the groups in the cat were open to both men and women, though the professionals should be checked to see if they were co-ed and if they went co-ed before they became open to non-Jews.Naraht (talk) 22:44, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

I'd support it. You work with categories more often than I. I don't know whether category bloat is a worry, so if that isn't the overriding issue, go for it. Jax MN (talk) 01:25, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
Done. Created Category:Historically Jewish fraternities in the United States and Category:Historically Jewish sororities in the United States. I forgot how unequal the split was. 25 Fraternities vs. 7 Sororities. Yes, the 25 include a few (5?) professional groups that are now co-ed, but it does bring up the fact that we have more articles for defunct Jewish social fraternities that merged into either AEPi or ZBT than we have articles for Jewish social sororities. The question is whether this is Wikipedia bias or represented the difference in number of Jewish Students by gender in college during the times that Jews weren't allowed to be members of other groups.Naraht (talk) 17:01, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
My sense is that the primary driver of the fact there were fewer Jewish sororities is that during the era of formation of these groups there were fewer female students. One might assume that a secondary driver may have been the fact that sorority chapters tend to be larger, but in these early days all chapters were smaller; I think the emergence of today's of large sorority chapters on some campuses is a comparatively recent phenomenon. For the record, I do NOT think that the fact that there are fewer sororities listed here has anything to do with Wikipedia bias. (But it's useful, I think, to bring this up for teaching purposes.) Jax MN (talk) 18:09, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
I need to find my copy of " Going Greek: Jewish College Fraternities in the US, 1895- 1945". If Sanua has significantly more sororities that we've missed (relative to fraternities) indicating bias on my/our part, then that will be the next project, otherwise, I think we are OK. I'm not saying that women can't put out gender unequal work, but my guess is that it really was that unequal.
Another possible reason and I'm not sure if Sanua goes into it. Alpha Epsilon Pi was a member of the NIC in 1912 and Sigma Alpha Mu, Zeta Beta Tau and half a dozen others were members of the NIC within a decade (albeit some as Junior members). *NONE* of the Historically Jewish Sororities joined the NPC until the massive 1951 expansion (along with the AES groups). 13:52, 27 December 2022 (UTC)


Sanua's book

Sanua's book in the Preface has Jewish National College Fraternities and Sororities c 1930 (This is at https://digital.library.wayne.edu/item/wayne:WayneStateUniversityPress4424/analysis) and she has 17 vs. 6 for the socials. Naraht (talk) 15:39, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

  • Fraternities
  1. Pi Lambda Phi
  2. Zeta Beta Tau
  3. Phi Epsilon Pi
  4. Sigma Alpha Mu
  5. Phi Sigma Delta
  6. Tau Epsilon Phi
  7. Beta Sigma Rho
  8. Kappa Nu
  9. Phi Beta Delta
  10. Omicron Alpha Tau
  11. Phi Alpha
  12. Alpha Epsilon Pi
  13. Alpha Mu Sigma
  14. Sigma Omega Psi
  15. Sigma Lambda Pi
  16. Sigma Tau Phi
  • Sororities
  1. Iota Alpha Pi
  2. Alpha Epsilon Phi
  3. Phi Sigma Sigma
  4. Sigma Delta Tau
  5. Delta Phi Epsilon
  6. Pi Alpha Tau
If memory serves, I recall going through her book and using it to cross check whether the nationals all had WP articles. I chalked up the relative lack of national Jewish sororities at the time to the factors I previously mentioned (less female collegians). I recall noting at the time that due to the difficulties in researching every thread, many groups that remained local chapters were missed in her book. There were many, many locals. Jax MN (talk) 21:44, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Inactive vs. Dormant.

It seems to me that using Dormant rather than Inactive is a euphemism, similar to saying "passed away" rather than died, which is discouraged. Is there any reason to use Dormant rather than Inactive?Naraht (talk) 17:59, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

The main reason I can think of is if the fraternity or sorority uses that term itself in their official documentation, but from a consistency standpoint I would be more inclined to just use "inactive" across the board on-wiki. Primefac (talk) 18:23, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
I was "taught" to use dormant by Jax. Is it the historical term, going back to Baird? Rublamb (talk) 19:30, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
I've used both, switching in order to maximize clarity. Primefac mentioned a good rationale, where the term should be used if that is what a national fraternity chooses. There are times where I have opted for Dormant because that word pops out, more so than Inactive/Active which are so similar. In the Status column I'd prefer to keep these as single words, with any detail pushed to the Notes field or even better, to an EFN. In case it helps, I wrote this up as a guideline on the Project page itself, some time ago, to clarify what words to use in the Status field:
------------
Options for the Status field should be short. As examples, use one of the following:
  • Active - (indicates there is current or imminent chapter or colony activity on the campus)
  • Colony - (or some derivative. Associate Chapter, or Provisional Chapter may be used instead.)
  • Consolidated - (for when two chapters of the same national merge. This is used when schools merge, or when chapters in two departments of the same university merge.)
  • Dormant - (or Inactive, typically for those chapters that close, clearly prior to a merger or a national closure.)
  • Disbanded - (when a chapter goes dormant at the time of a merger.)
  • Memorial - (to note when a chapter name is reserved to honor deceased members.)
  • Merged (ΑΒΓ) - when two chapters combine under the name of the successor merger partner. In the Notes field, use "Joined the existing XX chapter" or "Became the XX chapter" to differentiate between types of mergers. Also used when two schools merge, merging chapters.)
  • Moved - (used when the charter is moved, the charter following students to an adjacent school; not when reissued to another chapter. There must be a link between the groups.)
  • Reissued - (used when a charter is given to a new group at a new school, but where there is no connection to an earlier student group.) Optionally, "Reassigned" may be used for the former chapter, while "Active" (or another status) denotes the latter, receiving chapter.
  • Unassigned - (used to note a chapter name that has not yet been assigned.)
  • Withdrew - (when a chapter does not participate in a main merger. Use "Withdrew, (local)" or "Withdrew, (ΑΒΓ)" to indicate their successor, if any.)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jax MN (talk • contribs) 20:40, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
What do you recommend for a chapter that doesn't end, but changes its name for mysterious reasons (such as the fraternity chartered duplicate names). Or a chapter that goes dormant, but is recharted with a new name in the same year. I have followed your example of see see xxx in the name column, but am still not sure about status. Rublamb (talk) 03:09, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
If they change their name, just put (formerly ΣΣΣ). If a chapter gets shuttered and then re-formed, it is essentially two different chapters and should be listed as such. Primefac (talk) 09:35, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
Are we agreed to these updates? I think it is time to move the new additions, such as memorial, to the WP main article. Rublamb (talk) 16:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
Hello Primefac. Hope you are well; it's been sometime since we've had a dialog. May I ask why you inserted <code> around the Greek letters in the example above? Was that just shorthand where you meant the alternative language template, like {{lang|grc|ΣΣΣ}}?
To the substance of Rublamb's question, I've tried out several variations on a theme. Lately I've just been adding something like "''(See '''{{lang|grc|ΣΣΣ}})'''" where a chapter merged into another, successor fraternity and where it is presently active. I italicize the Greek letters if the chapter has gone dormant. I had previously inserted three non-breaking spaces (   ) to inset the successor name, attempting clarity, but several instances of this had been deleted by other editors, and it became a battle I wasn't convinced enough to fight. As this can become complex, I've differentiated by alerting readers to the proximate new name with "Became {{lang|grc|ΣΣΣ}}", and then "See {{lang|grc|ΜΜΜ}}" when Tri Sigma eventually merged into or became Tri-Mu. Jax MN (talk) 23:35, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
I put <code>...</code> tags around text where I want to highlight it; in this case to emphasise that the parentheses were also part of my example. Primefac (talk) 19:51, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
------------
(Thanks for adding my signature, Primefac) I wanted to mention that I offered this guidance on the Status column as a starting point, and am certainly open to our process of dialog and consensus. Jax MN (talk) 16:36, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
I reviewed these options, and realized one logical situation wasn't addressed, which happened from time to time after the Civil War. I added a line for this, "Reissued". I also updated the language on the Project page. Jax MN (talk) 16:45, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
Perfect--because I have previously used reissued! Rublamb (talk) 20:37, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Both

On aKDPhi's website page about chapters, they actually have two different categories of chapters, so for them Inactive and Dormant are different... https://www.akdphi.org/chapters

Delta Sigma Theta

I'd appreciate additional eyes on the end of the year changes to Delta Sigma Theta. I thought I'd ask here and then on the talk page.Naraht (talk) 15:30, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Which one? Delta Sigma Theta or Delta Sigma Theta (professional)? Jax MN (talk) 15:35, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
The first.Naraht (talk) 11:00, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Large "see also" by type of group.

Recently, I believe that a large number of see alsos were added in order to have all pharmacy groups have see alsos to other. I think that in this case and similar, that having templates by type of group would be better.Naraht (talk) 11:02, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

I noticed this too. I did nothing yet, but thought about changing to the specific Pharmaceutical and pharmacological sub-section of the Professional fraternities and sororities article. Is that okay, or is it only correct to refer to the main article? Rublamb (talk) 14:44, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
In some cases, I see them as crossing over between Professionals and Honorary.Naraht (talk) 15:18, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
I created those subsections, following the model used for medical and legal fraternities. These show both professional and honor societies, allowing comparison by casual readers. By "template by type", do you mean that these subheaders and their content would be removed, and access to these links would be demoted to a group link at the very bottom of the page? Jax MN (talk) 16:28, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
A Template, yes. These are a consistent group of links (minus the one for the article). That is a perfect example of what a template *should* be.Naraht (talk) 20:50, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
Similar idea, but easier for the current problem. List both Honor society and Professional fraternities and sororities under See Also, removing list of individual chapters (unless it is a sister or brother chapter). This should cover all related groups that @Jax MN wanted to include and will allow us to update the lists within the Honor society and Professional fraternities and sororities articles without worrying about changes impacting a large number of pages.
If we want to be more inclusive, we could create a template as @Naraht suggests that is a "master list" of all of the articles that list the various types of fraternities/sororities/societies. This master list would include in all specific fraternity/sorority/society articles, regardless of type. That way, Jewish fraternities, service, LBGTQ, social, professional, honor society, etc.—which might relate to a given article currently or sometime in the future—would be present. As an added benefit, this would give greater visibility to the WP efforts. The downside of such a comprehensive master list is that some lists might not relate to a given article in any way and would, therefore, be a bit confusing. Regardless, I like the template idea. Wishing it could be implemented via automation, but there are probably too many existing variations to consider. Thoughts? Rublamb (talk) 20:04, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
I'd prefer simply creating by type. For example, for those with all of the other Optometry groups (honorary or professional) in a see also, there should be an optometry GLO template.Naraht (talk) 14:44, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
Is it really worth it to have a template that only reflates to five or six articles? Templates are new to me so I am trying to see the advantage of one for this situation. Rublamb (talk) 05:24, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
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