Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Insects

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WikiProject Insects (Rated NA-class)
WikiProject icon This page is within the scope of WikiProject Insects, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of insects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
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Ant task force tagging[edit]

Hello everyone! The number of ant articles is growing every day; time has come to add an ant task force parameter to Template:WikiProject Insects. I've requested project tagging help from User:Yobot here. The change should be fairly straightforward, but if you have any objections, please voice your concerns.

A sandbox version of the improved template is available at Template:WikiProject Insects/sandbox (thanks to Redrose64).

Ping: satusuro, Burklemore1, Kevmin

Thanks, jonkerztalk 16:03, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

As there seems to be no opposition I've updated the banner. jonkerztalk 13:51, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Missing insects: the 20 most written about[edit]

These insect species are the most commonly found scientific names in Google books which we don't already have articles or redirects for. I welcome you to create articles for these (or redirects if necessary).

Each of these 20 scientific names is found in at least 516 books or volumes. They are all within the top 6000 most common scientific names of any kingdom (out of 2,485,495 binomial species and synonyms searched).

  1. Glossina morsitans, Glossina (Glossinidae, Diptera)
  2. Calliphora erythrocephala, Calliphora (Calliphoridae, Diptera)
  3. Chironomus tentans, Chironomus (Chironomidae, Diptera)
  4. Glossina palpalis, Glossina (Glossinidae, Diptera)
  5. Rhopalosiphum padi, Rhopalosiphum - bird cherry-oat aphid (Aphididae, Hemiptera)
  6. Drosophila subobscura, Drosophila (Drosophilidae, Diptera)
  7. Simulium damnosum, Simulium (Simuliidae, Diptera)
  8. Schizaphis graminum, Schizaphis - greenbug (Aphididae, Hemiptera)
  9. Thrips tabaci, Thrips (Thripidae, Thysanoptera)
  10. Empoasca fabae, Empoasca - potato leafhopper (Cicadellidae, Hemiptera)
  11. Melanoplus sanguinipes, Melanoplus - migratory grasshopper (Acrididae, Orthoptera)
  12. Sitobion avenae, Sitobion - english grain aphid (Aphididae, Hemiptera)
  13. Hypera postica (provisionally_accepted_name).
  14. Anopheles maculipennis, Anopheles (Culicidae, Diptera)
  15. Acanthoscelides obtectus, Acanthoscelides - bean weevil (Chrysomelidae, Coleoptera)
  16. Aedes taeniorhynchus, Aedes (Culicidae, Diptera)
  17. Eriosoma lanigerum, Eriosoma - woolly apple aphid (Aphididae, Hemiptera)
  18. Teleogryllus commodus, Teleogryllus - black field cricket (Gryllidae, Orthoptera)
  19. Megoura viciae, Megoura (Aphididae, Hemiptera)
  20. Chironomus riparius, Chironomus (Chironomidae, Diptera)

I've also uploaded the top 1000 missing insects so that you can search through for your favourite order. —Pengo 08:29, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Excellent target identification. Some years back I was quite shocked to notice the lack of Helicoverpa armigera, which although not a red link is still in need of work. Shyamal (talk) 10:14, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
Scratch Megoura viciae off the list. Its not huge but its a start. Man Over-bored (talk) 11:40, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
You can scrub Chironomus riparius as well :D Man Over-bored (talk) 12:16, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
I've nominated both for DYK. cheers, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:35, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
So I saw, nice one, thanks Man Over-bored (talk) 13:41, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
And Acanthoscelides obtectus is down too Man Over-bored (talk) 14:34, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Help Identifying this beetle[edit]

Longhorn beetle, France, Loire Valley

I saw this beauty in France, Loire Valley region whilst on holiday last year, about 4 to 5cm long in the body. I've looked at various on-line gallery resources but can't find an exact match. Any ideas? Pahazzard (talk) 11:39, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

please try to check at insecte.org[edit]

Hello, you might try to check at www.insecte.org (specialized forum on insects from France) or check directly on their picture gallery at www.galerie-insecte.org/

best regards User:Tonton Bernardo I'm so tired (talk) 15:24, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Seems to be correctly identified as Aegosoma scabricorne (User:Vitalfranz is a cerambycid specialist who runs http://www.cerambycoidea.com/ and sometimes checks ids on commons) Shyamal (talk) 15:37, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
Many thanks to you both! Pahazzard (talk) 19:05, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Photinus pyralis[edit]

Hi! I tagged a page, Photinus pyralis, as B-class. I am still not sure whether it qualifies as B or C. Please tell me so that I could change the rank if necessary. Also please use the ping feature (ex. @Example:) when replying. Gug01 (talk) 23:37, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

@Gug01: I'm pretty reluctant to tag articles as B-class, so I usually look for reasons why an article might fail to be B-class. The assessment guidelines for B-class at Wikipedia:WikiProject Arthropods/Article Classification (which are linked by the Insect and Beetle project banners) are quite a bit more liberal than the general ones at Template:Grading scheme. Arthropod B-class says article can be missing an important section, while the Grading scheme says B-class shouldn't have any "obvious omissions". I'd call P. pyralis C-class as it lacks a couple important sections. There really should be some discussion of its geographic distribution and habitat. A physical description of the species would also be helpful (although it can be very difficult to write a description at a level appropriate to a general audience; technical jargon should be avoided). And what about their larval stage? Adults don't feed, so what do the larvae eat and where do they live? Plantdrew (talk) 00:14, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for your advice, Plantdrew. I will tag it back as C-class. Do you think that after a section on their larval stage and geographic distrubition and habitat are created, it could be a B-class article? Gug01 (talk) 21:00, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
B-class might indeed be appropriate at that point. I've got a couple more thoughts. Maybe larva could be covered in a Life Cycle section? That would also give a place to talk about what time of year the adults are active. The Light Production section is really more appropriate to Photinus; nothing wrong with discussing it at the species level as well, but the genus article should certainly have something on physiology of light production. The second paragraph in the Defense describes the results of a single study in greater detail than is necessary. Predation of Photinus by Photuris is certainly an important topic to cover (which again, should also be mentioned on the Photinus genus page). However, Photuris using lucibufagin to protect against jumping spiders is marginally relevant to the P. pyralis article, and would be more appropriate in Photuris. My impression is that Photuris females attack Photinus males primarily for food/nutrition, but as the article is written, it convenys the impression that obtaining lucibufagin for defense is the primary driver of predation by Photuris. Plantdrew (talk) 16:27, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Pageview stats[edit]

After a recent request, I added WikiProject Insects to the list of projects to compile monthly pageview stats for. The data is the same used by http://stats.grok.se/en/ but the program is different, and includes the aggregate views from all redirects to each page. The stats are at Wikipedia:WikiProject Insects/Popular pages.

The page will be updated monthly with new data. The edits aren't marked as bot edits, so they will show up in watchlists. You can view more results, request a new project be added to the list, or request a configuration change for this project using the Tool Labs tool. If you have any comments or suggestions, please let me know. Thanks! Mr.Z-man 04:38, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Primary host for cimex antennatus[edit]

If someone has a chance to take a look at the question on Talk:Cimex antennatus, it would be much appreciated!--CaroleHenson (talk) 15:36, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Tagging projects[edit]

I've been seeing some people removing the WikiProject Insect tag from article talk pages and replacing with the specific order (e.g., [1]). I would think that this project should be included on all insect pages to link to a central project, but am I missing some conversation related to this? I'm a bit concerned we're getting too specific in Wikiprojects we list on the talk page otherwise, so I'm just curious what others think. Kingofaces43 (talk) 15:59, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

I think it would be better to include both project tags (Insects and Beetles). Part of the point of having the projects is to enable collaboration, and it doesn't help when the pool of potential collaborators is narrowed. Collaboration is probably more effective when more narrowly focused, so subprojects like Beetles, Vespidae and the Ants task-force are a good thing, but people who are interested in working on insects in general are presumably still interested in beetles, vespids and ants.
In practice though, there are quite a few narrowly focused organismal biology projects on Wikipedia that have kept "their" talk pages free of the parent project's banner. Most Lepidoptera articles don't have a WikiProject Insects banner. Turtles aren't tagged for the Amphibian and Reptile project. Sharks aren't tagged for the Fish project.
Mammals were recently segregated among six subprojects: Cats, Dogs, Cetaceans, Equines, Primates and Rodents. A few months ago I went through cats, dogs, cetaceans and equines and added the mammal banner to all the species articles. I did catch some flak from somebody who apparently thought I intended to tag all articles under the scope of WikiProject:Equine with the mammal banner (I had no intention of tagging stuff like "saddle" or "reins" as relevant to mammals).
On the other hand, I don't think all insects should tagged for WikiProject Arthropods (which is effectively pretty much WikiProject Crustaceans) or WIkiProject Animals, but I don't really have any logical justification for that stance. Plantdrew (talk) 21:04, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
I definitely see the a various ways of approaching this. For us, insects in general are really the unifying factor, so I think we are diluting ourselves too much as well if we starting removing the Insects banner. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:43, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
@Kingofaces43: and @Plantdrew: I don't see anyone being diluted here, and nobody will. Look at various moths and butterflies from WikiProject Lepidoptera. All of the species are marked with WikiProject Lepidoptera only, not both. So, in short I will suggest to remove WikiProject Insects from those that are either Butterly/Moths or Beetles. There is no reason for keeping it, since users will sign up for whatever project there is (or sub project for that matter). Look at it this way, we have roughly 85,000 articles on butterflies and moths. We also have 40,000 Insect related articles. Why we need to keep them as insects if we don't do it for Lepidoptera? Infact, the smaller the category the easier it will to find anything. Honestly, even alphabetically its sometimes hard to find what you need. Plus, we don't add WikiProject Sports to every athlete even though that they are related. Now, I don't completely removing it, I live it for ants, leafhoppers, bugs, and other insects that are not butterflies/moths or beetles. Is that fair?--Mishae (talk) 01:47, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
I'd actually look to add the Insect tag to the Lep articles as well for the reasons listed above. We generally don't make decisions in articles because others do the same (there's a guideline on that somewhere), so we can't really argue that because Lep articles don't have the tag that that should be the standard. I'm also concerned about the Statistics section here as we can use that to track the status of insect related articles. When it comes to these articles, people are generally going to be interested in insects in general, so we should try to maintain that overarching connection. I don't see any reason to exclude the insect banner from any insect page since that's where the community really lies. Any less than that and we're specializing a bit too much in an already specialized topic. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:14, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Also, WP:PROJGUIDE#OWN is helpful here. Essentially, we don't remove banners when a Wikiproject claims it's within its scope. I don't see any danger of overtagging here either, so it seems best to mesh with our Wikiproject guidelines by just including both. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:21, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
@Kingofaces43: O' yeah, how about you will read this, where it clearly says that over tagging is disruptive, which means screw WP:PROJGUIDE#OWN!--Mishae (talk) 02:28, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Like WikiProject Insects, just like Lepidoptera is huge. So my suggestion would be to change WikiProject Insect to WikiProject Beetles for beetles, and then we can create beetle task forces, like it is with ants. I think this sounds like a good plan. Maybe users @Ruigeroeland:, @Oculi:, @Ser Amantio di Nicolao:, @Dawynn:, and @Notafly: have something to add?--Mishae (talk) 02:24, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
I don't see any reason to exclude the insect banner from any insect page since that's where the community really lies. Any less than that and we're specializing a bit too much in an already specialized topic. - You don't see a reason but I do. WikiProject Insects is too broad already and therefore for the ease of navigating I will remove that project banner from butterflies/moths and beetles. Really, how would you find a beetle in a WikiProject Insects? I would suggest a vote. Some users already started adding WikiProject Greece to the animals that are endemic to it, I don't think there was consensus on that.--Mishae (talk) 02:33, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I'm pretty sure I referenced that overtagging wouldn't be a problem (it'd likely only be two tags at most for most). If the beetle people want to tag the article and do things within their own project that's perfectly fine, but we should be following the guidelines for Wikiprojects and not removing other's banners. That's all. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:38, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

@Kingofaces43: Some editors are not even a part of those project, so why should you care? The other reason I do it (and will continue), is because majority of them were written before WikiProject Beetles became active again. As for it'd likely only be two tags at most for most, that's right, most not all. As I stated above some editors already started to tag insect articles for endemism, so in this case it will be 3 tags, and it will be too much.--Mishae (talk) 02:48, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
WP:PROJSCOPE is very clear on this, "if a WikiProject says that an article is within their scope, then do not edit-war to remove the banner." Saying you will continue to remove the banner is not the way to approach this at this time. The rest of that page indicates how to handle multiple projects with interest in an article, so I highly suggest reading that. Kingofaces43 (talk) 03:02, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
@Kingofaces43: Am I edit warring? If so where? Either way, I will wait till other folks will come here. I already read that pile of foo, and I am well aware of it. However, while it applies well to biographies because a lot of people do have multiple professions and origins, insects are different. Insects have only order/family and distribution. Because really if lets say an athlete is a football player should we add both Football and Sports template, just because some folks might want to join Sports project rather then its subprojects? I think I stated a reason for it removal very clear on top We have zillions of articles on insects and its hard to find in this template what you are looking for even alphabetically Is that CLEAR?--Mishae (talk) 03:19, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
The point is not to remove banners when you've been made aware there is opposition to it. The issues you are bringing up now are fixed by simply adding the Beetle template rather than replacing the Insect one. Kingofaces43 (talk) 03:44, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
@Kingofaces43: The opposition is one (you). Either way, I already stated my point. Lets wait till other folks will join this discussion. Sounds fair?--Mishae (talk) 05:11, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Stepping back from what has been said so far, there are several purposes or functions to a WikiProject. Wikipedia:WikiProject lists a few:
  • "as resources to help coordinate and organize the group's efforts at creating and improving articles"
  • "[to give] advice for editors, use bots to track what is happening at articles of interest to the group, and create lists of tools and templates their members commonly use"
  • "[to provide] a convenient forum for those involved in that project to talk about what they are doing, to ask questions, and to receive advice from other people interested in the group's work"
The question, really, is how are these aims best served. In the case of WP:Beetles, I can't see much on the project page that wouldn't apply to all insects, and certainly not so much that it couldn't be accommodated in a larger project. Similarly, I doubt that WT:Insects would be swamped by all the discussions that currently occur at WT:Beetles. I'm sure the split was well-intentioned, but I think it was probably unnecessary. I think my personal view is that for the discussions that matter, it's best to have as many voices as possible from a wide range of relevant backgrounds, and for that, a more inclusive project is a better project.
One final point: I would argue that article count is a very poor guide to the amount of quality that a project covers. WP:LEP may have 88,839 articles, but only 1.2% of them are rated above stub-class. This is very, very low for a WikiProject, even a large one. WikiProject History is large, and more than a third of its articles are above stub-class. WikiProject Biography is enormous, and just under a third (c. 32%) of its articles are above stub-class. Even the neonate WikiProject Beetles manages 2.6%. WikiProject Lepidoptera does not seem to have had great success in improving the quality of articles, and I am unconvinced that WikiProject Beetles will be any different in the longer term. Just because WikiProject Lepidoptera exists, that does not make it a model to be aspired to. Editors are free to create any WikiProject they like, of course, but that doesn't mean it's always a good idea, and they are not free to disrupt other WikiProjects. If the people at WikiProject Insects want to keep track of the beetle articles (or the lep. articles, for that matter), then they should be allowed to. The people to ask, then, are those who are members or active participants at WikiProject Insects and not members or active participants of the subproject(s). --Stemonitis (talk) 07:05, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
@Stemonitis: For the first time ever, I need to agree with you. However, the split was necessary. Both Lepidoptera and Beetles have over 10,000 articles. Yes, most of them are stubs, but so it goes with the Insect project as well. Lets focus on Insects, Beetles, and Lepidoptera, not biography and Sports, which, and you are right, have over 32% of articles that are above stub class. As for Editors are free to create any WikiProject they like, of course, but that doesn't mean it's always a good idea, and they are not free to disrupt other WikiProjects., this disruption is only concerns Kingofaces43, because prior to his issue of a concern everything was going well. I hope you are not trying to side with him and accuse me of disruption? I doubt that WT:Insects would be swamped by all the discussions that currently occur at WT:Beetles. - O' there shouldn't be any doubt about that. Every concern about a butterfly or moth is being taken care of at WikiProject Lepidoptera, not Insects. My suggestion, we should continue on removing this project from beetle related articles because beetle project is a s huge as Lepidoptera. Just because it only have 4 participants, doesn't mean that it should be scoffed and ignored. Lets see what user @Shyamal:, @The Earwig:, @AshLin:, @Burklemore1:, and @Gug01:, have to say about the whole thing.--Mishae (talk) 08:57, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
To clarify, I didn't accuse anyone of disruption, and only meant that it might occur inadvertently. Apologies if that wasn't apparent. --Stemonitis (talk)
@Stemonitis: So in this case, the sooner we will rename beetle articles from WikiProject Insects to WikiProject Beetles the sooner the apparent disruption will end. If not for this debate, I would have finished it and began editing the articles so that wouldn't be a one-sentence stubs.--Mishae (talk) 09:19, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Mishae, you don't appear to be hearing what we're saying, but you need to stop removing the banners at this time. You seem to be plowing ahead with this regardless. It is up to this Wikiproject where their banner goes. The existence of Wikiproject Beetles does change that. Seriously, just add the Beetles tag without deleting the old one. It's as simple as that. Kingofaces43 (talk) 09:54, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
@Kingofaces43: I wont listen to an ultimatum. I said why the tag should be changed, and you are the only one who object this. I see that people issued an opinion not an ultimatum like you did. WikiProject Lepidoptera doesn't use it, why should this? And why should I listen to you if other editors might have different opinion. Either way, yes, I will stop, because its past my bed time, but tomorrow I will read what consensus came too. Sounds fair? Also, please sign your name. Thank you.--Mishae (talk) 09:53, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
  • @Mishae: Imho, in what way is an article in particular and the encyclopedia in general served best by adding both tags of the mother & daughter projects? I do feel that the WikiProject Insects tag by itself may not add value to the article in all cases of articles of WikiProject Lepidoptera. However, WikiProject Insects would be definitely concerned with systematics, so at least down to family level could bear the tag of WikiProject Insects where an entomologist doing a taxonomic sweep could find these conveniently & add value to these articles. Similarly articles on physiology, ecology, ethology and general topics would benefit from having both tags. The species pages, tens of thousands of them may not get any tangible benefit from being counted as an article under WikiProject. AshLin (talk) 13:09, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
  • @AshLin: To answer your first question, I believe that using both sister and moth projects is redundant and I believe that we should follow WikiProject Lepidoptera example: just use WikiProject Lepidoptera and that's it. It was like that for centuries so why change it? Because of it, I decided to change WikiProject Insects to WikiProject Beetles for beetle related articles. I don't do anything against the rules when I do so, yet user Kingofaces43 finds my edits undesirable and find me undesirable as an editor as well.--Mishae (talk) 13:21, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
The way you are pursuing this is what I've been calling out on your talk page. Please refrain from taking this way too seriously as the "undesirable as an editor" comment is not appropriate here nor anything I said. It looks like you're reading way too much into this. We need focus on the issue at hand here following WP:TPG to tackle this calmly. When someone reverts an edit or calls it out, that's the time to stop making the edits and discuss to reach consensus. That's Wikipedia 101. Right now, a fair number of folks here are concerned about removing the Insects banner, while some are ok with it. We don't have a clear consensus to be removing the Insect banner right now, so if we are going to be removing the Insects banner, this project simply needs to reach consensus on that. Kingofaces43 (talk) 15:04, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
@Kingofaces43: I responded on my talkpage why I sometimes behave like this, but if you don't get it, bare in mind that my native language is Russian I sometimes think one thing and write something completely else. To be honest this is my first discussion where consensus plays a key role, so bare with me, I am new to this. Just because I was here for a while doesn't mean that I was engaged in every activity. a fair number of folks here are concerned about removing the Insects banner - there is one person who is concerned and that's you and @Plantdrew: (who didn't bothered to show up after I pinged him). Users Stemonitis and AshLin are neutral from my stance (although they are closer to agree with removing it). I might be wrong though. As for consensus, I maybe don't understand its function. What I know is that we have an editor here who thinks that WP:ILIKEIT is appropriate here and ignores the proposed suggestions until I need to write it all caps, and then it turns out that I am a bad guy? Wow. Look, here is another reason why we should remove this template: Both {{WikiProject Beetles}} and {{WikiProject Insects}} use Insects portal therefore a daughter project should be enough.--Mishae (talk) 18:28, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Not helpful to refer to others when they give actual reasons as WP:ILIKEIT. This is looking like a very adversarial approach you're taking, so I'm going to let the ANI on your behavior wrap up first. Kingofaces43 (talk) 13:01, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
@Kingofaces43: Saying that When it comes to these articles, people are generally going to be interested in insects in general, so we should try to maintain that overarching connection and I don't see any reason to exclude the insect banner from any insect page since that's where the community really lies. is to me looks a lot like WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Furthermore, an entomologist like yourself should know that entomology is divided in numerous fields (that's why some entomologists do beetles only, while some do only Lepidoptera). Yes, early entomologists like Linnaeus and Illiger did both and more but that's because they were very first entomologists. The scientific department is better organized nova days. :) To be honest with you, community lies everywhere, some folks edit aricles of beetles, other do butterflies, etc. Why we should offer them an option to join this or that project if they both have insect portal? I think you are so determined to keep it is because your project have almost 30 active members (I checked the participants section in the project). WikiProejct Lepidoptera have 17 to 19 active members, while beetles as you know have 4. Now, since no one arrived for a discussion I am wondering if you just told them not to come? No, I am not saying that you bribed them, although I fear that you might have, since as I said above no one came (and its already 2nd day of the debate). Lets call the above users again: @Phil Northing:, @Shyamal:, @The Earwig:, @Burklemore1:, @Ruigeroeland:, @Oculi:, @Ser Amantio di Nicolao:, @Dawynn:, and @Notafly:, and @Gug01:. Because really, what kind of discussion is this when only you, me, Stemonitis, AshLin, and Plantdrew are here, and only me and you are discussing it while the rest just said their opinion on the matter and left. I imagined discussion differently. :(--Mishae (talk) 01:05, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Your above comments are not helpful (again) when you are taking this adversarial approach, especially when you ignore legitimate points brought up just as "I don't like it". That's why your behavior is at ANI right now. The points I've brought up are based on Wikipedia guidelines, so we can't just blow them off when it comes to removing tags. Also, there's no need to re-ping people. Either they decided not to reply, or haven't been online yet.
The core reason I keep bringing up for maintaining the Insects tag is because this is the core Wikiproject where we are about as specialized as we can get while still having a decent number of people where we know the project will be active or attract more insect interested people in the future. The more order specialized projects like leps and beetles are more likely to come and go like many descendent projects do, but we know that the Insects project will be a fallback. Generally, taxonomists are the ones who remain focused on certain groups of insects, but many entomologists actually do work with different orders of insects rather than just one. When it comes to Wikiprojects, there's not an inherent need to split every order into its own project, so our default here should be to include the articles we want, and Beetles can include what they want per our Wikiproject guidelines. There's no need to delegate that only one project gets the article (the portal doesn't really do anything for these purposes). If we start decentralizing projects, we lose the ability to track the stats of the articles that would interest this project, especially if the watchlist tool returns. A lot of people just want to work on insects in general, and this is the place for that. I for one don't care what order an insect is in terms of keeping track of articles as an editor. If taxonomy is our concern, that's already in the species box of each article. Any issues you've brought up are easily addressed by having both tags with no clear benefit of removing the Insects tag, but there some potential disadvantages to removing it that I've mentioned. Kingofaces43 (talk) 04:37, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
I reckon Wikiproject Insects should be the central project, resulting it to be tagged in all insect related articles. I weirdly picture it as "the mothership" since these orders are below and united under the Insecta class, if that makes sense. Because of that, I think it would work out fine if a beetle or moth article would incorporate the Wikiproject Insects tag. Burklemore1 (talk) 10:23, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
@Burklemore1: No it doesn't make sense, because WikiProject Insects have over 40,000 articles already and its difficult to find an article even in the alphabetical order. Plus, if WikiProject Beetles and WikiProject Lepidoptera will use this template why would WikiProject Football be off its WikiProject Sports, or that project is a exception? I believe that WikiProject Insects should disappear from WikiProject Beetles because:
  1. It still can be accessed via Portal talk:Insects since both templates have connection toward that portal
  2. WikiProject Insects is overused on every Insect related article (that's why WikiProject Lepidoptera decided not to use it, since it already have 88,839 articles).
  3. If we will use 2-3 tags (plus 1 for articles where species are endemic to a specific nation or territory), we will violate WP:OVERTAGGING especially Redundant tags section.
Unfortunately, user Kingofaces43 listens to only one side (his own), and convinces other editors to follow his suit blindly which in my opinion is misleading.--Mishae (talk) 20:06, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
I don't understand why you're looking through 40,000 pages to find a specific article. What is the situation where this needs to be done? If you want to find an article, put the title in the search box. If you want to find a set of articles meeting particular criteria (i.e., those that are about beetles) this is best accomplished through CatScan (the tool I've linked below) rather than browsing through a list of articles by WikiProject (especially since articles are more likely to be categorized than tagged for a Wikiproject; 289 beetles and coleopterists are tagged for neither project). Plantdrew (talk) 20:26, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I'd like to point out there while are now 9,943 pages tagged for WikiProject Beetles, there are 17,675 pages (warning, link is slow to load) in Category:Beetles and its subcategories that are tagged for WikiProject Insects and not for WikiProject Beetles. And there are 289 pages (slow) that don't have either project's tag. We are still a long way from having all beetle articles tagged for the beetle project, and this task might be better accomplished by employing a bot. Plantdrew (talk) 19:42, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I agree. It would be very helpful if there could be a bot to help for this, but I've asked several owners of bots and they either outright refuse or just don't reply. Gug01 (talk) 19:53, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
I've been meaning to check into how Wikipedia bots work, so I'm happy to look into this at some point. I've done quite a bit of script coding in the past, so I'll see what (if anything) I could do. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:18, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
  • @Plantdrew:, @Mishae:, @Stemonitis:, @Kingofaces43:, @Ashlin:, @Burklemore1: I believe that WikiProject Beetles articles and WikiProject Lepidoptera articles should be tagged as only that project, not as WikiProject Insects too. Although WikiProject Beetles and WikiProject Lepidoptera may not be good at improving articles, really, really, WikiProject Insects is not that good either. I do not deny the hard work of WikiProject Insects editors to promote several GAs and even an FA. However, WikiProject Insects only makes a few GAs and does not seem to bring stubs to C-class, for instance. In the long run, I think there is no real reason to tag beetle or moth-related articles with the WikiProject Insects banner. Besides, WikiProject Insects covers a huge scope, and if it were up to me, I would split WikiProject Beetles and WikiProject Lepidoptera even further. Gug01 (talk) 20:01, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
    • @Gug01: Was about to go to your talkpage for it. Either way, thank you for your input. You see, what you said above its exactly what I am trying to achieve but no one listens. My proposition of splitting both WikiProject Beetles and WikiProject Lepidoptera even further is in the subsection.--Mishae (talk) 20:13, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
The main reason you bring up for the beetle and leps projects is improving stub articles. That's definitely justification for adding the Beetles tag in this case (or designating it as a task force), but I don't see a reason for removing the Insects tag. The latter is ultimately the question here (not removing the Beetles tag). I haven't seen anything beyond not wanting to have multiple tags brought up to address that, but that's not a problem looking at the Wikiproject guidelines I mentioned earlier. Are you just addressing keeping the beetles tag more or actually removing the insects tag? Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:18, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
@Kingofaces43: I'm addressing the former. Personally, I think that for now the Wikiproject Insects tag should be added, but if WikiProject Beetles substantially grows, then it should be removed. Only if. I am also saying that there should be no WikiProject Insects tag in the WikiProject Lepidoptera articles since WikiProject Lepidoptera is pretty big. Is that clear? Gug01 (talk) 22:53, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
@Gug01: I think that WikiProject Beetles is big enough, ranging at over 10,000 articles now, with possibility of it becoming more if not for this debate.--Mishae (talk) 00:10, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
@Mishae: I didn't mean size of articles. I meant the number of contributing editors. Gug01 (talk) 12:44, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Cleared up indeed. Those are my thoughts too for this moment at least. I have no problem with Leps remaining as is for now as they've got enough of a community going and are pretty well established. Beetles would need to establish itself as a community and have more people first before reaching the same point. At that point in time I still wouldn't be 100% on replacing the tag, but I for one would definitely be more open to it then. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:49, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
@Kingofaces43: How many editors do we need in order to form a project? As for my ignorance on consensus those edits help me to keep cool with you guys, otherwise reading your comments and calling most stuff that I say is irrelevant makes me quite angry. Its my first long debate, and since I don't know how and when the agreement will be reached. Plus, I will be blocked sooner or later because of your meat puppetry.--Mishae (talk) 03:41, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals suggests 6-12 editors as a minimum for forming a new project. Plantdrew (talk) 16:04, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Summarizing the general consensus just for beetle articles so far, it seems folks would prefer to leave the Insects tag. Wikiproject Beetles can add their own tag if they want, but that's up to their own project and not us here. If Wikiproject Beetles obtains a fair number of editors to establish a good sized community to sustain itself, we could revisit the situation someday where Beetles would be considered a similar situation to what we have with Wikiproject Lepidoptera right now. There might be other options to consider than splitting off new Wikiprojects, but that's a topic for another day. Does that sound like a fair summary and course of action? Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:24, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
I'm not sure if I've articulated my views yet but I agree with this course of action Kingofaces43 summarized above, for the time being: add Beetle banners if one wishes, but leave Insect banners in place: I don't see substantial harm in having both tags, and I don't see any net benefits to removing Insect tags. My take-away is that Mishae's main motivation is that having beetle articles associated with insect articles make it "hard to find" articles (although not specifying exactly where he was looking, or what), and that may be an issue, but I'd like to see WP Beetles become more established and self-sustaining before replacing Insect banners. In any case, if WP Beetles is to prosper, it will have to foster close interaction with other insect projects and editors. --Animalparty-- (talk) 20:20, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
@Kingofaces43: I agree exactly with what you are saying. If WikiProject Beetles prospers, then we can revisit. For now, I agree with the course of action. Gug01 (talk) 13:44, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Task forces[edit]

As an additional note, I think it would be better to have task forces for the specific orders within Wikiproject Insects as taskforces. This all isn't something I'm going to pursue right now, and I'm not interested in deconstructing their Wikiprojects, but it's an idea that's been getting more traction for me as I've read our guidelines for Wikiprojects. This project already is very species focused in how we describe how articles should be written within the project, so we already say our scope is to the species level. The descendent projects are largely editor interest based rather than unique article structure or topics. WP:TASKFORCE describes this situation as the orders being good candidates to turn into task forces given the number of articles and the relatively limited number of editors we have. We might even be able to get a statistics page for each taskforce, but I'd have to look into how that table sets itself up. Articles would be listed with the Insects banner, but we'd include the task force within that template. Maybe something to consider in the future. Kingofaces43 (talk) 04:40, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I think this is an interesting idea, and could well be a good way to organise things in the future. Obviously, entomology is a potentially vast topic ("an inordinate fondness for beetles" and so on), but the project is intended to organise editors, not articles, and there aren't so many of those. --Stemonitis (talk) 07:47, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
@Stemonitis: and @Kingofaces43: The idea is good, but I had a different one. Lets create task forces for WikiProject Beetles and WiikiProject Lepidoptera individually. What I am saying is that for example an article on ground beetle will be marked with WikiProject Beetles template |ground beetle=yes. An example will be WikiProject Medicine.--Mishae (talk) 19:31, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Well for one that's not really relevant here since Wikiprojects are independent of each other. We're discussing primarily what Wikiproject Insects should do, while discussion about what other projects should do generally belongs at those respective projects. Given what's been discussed above though, we wouldn't want to set up too specialized of task forces here. Generally, they could be by order or groups of smaller orders with some like Hymenoptera that have distinct groups as common names as their own task force (e.g., ants, bees & wasps [or maybe separate those last two]. Regardless of the project, we don't need to drill down to further taxonomic levels for additional subgroups within the project just because they exist. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:08, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
@Kingofaces43: I agree with you. However, some large or notable task forces should be made. For instance, maybe an Ichneumonidae task force (come on, it is the largest animal family, how can it not have a taskforce), bees taskforce and maybe Mantodea taskforce. Gug01 (talk) 22:57, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
I agree entirely on that front too. I just wouldn't want to see indiscriminate task forces. But to keep them focused exactly as you laid out. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:36, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
@Gug01: You should come and read this so that you will know that user Kingofaces43 wants to be his way only. Furthermore, I am now being accused of not being competent which is ridiculous because I wrote so many articles and did so many constructive edits, and now the whole community accuse me of vandalism and disruptive edits??!!--Mishae (talk) 20:21, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
I highly suggest rereading what I said and not misrepresent what I said in such an adversarial manner. Again, please follow the talk page guidelines. This drama is not going to help the community at all. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:36, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
@Kingofaces43: You know, I am not the one who is being adversarial, but you are. It is you who don't want the Insect tag to be removed. If you so like it, then why can't you hang it on your own talkpage and be proud of it? Furthermore, I am not creating drama, I just want user @Gug01: to know that you have adversarial behavior toward me, and that's the truth.--Mishae (talk) 20:44, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I think there is some merit in creating some broad level task-forces within WP Insects that lack the broad editor base of Lepidoptera, although not every order needs a task-force (Stepsiptera?). The Ant task force seems to be a convenient way to organize articles, although it also has limited participation. Certainly in most cases a task-force should be proposed before a new dedicated sub-project. However, I feel the creation of any new projects or task forces within existing projects should be largely determined by the actual or potential size of the relevant editing community, not merely the number of articles (existing or expected) to be dealt with. Like articles, a project is only as good as the editors who participate and stick around. There are currently only 4 active editors on WikiProject Beetles, and the proposed sub-projects at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Beetles#Possible_descendant_projects seems like a tremendous amount of needless hair-splitting. What benefit is served by dividing that project into sub-projects or work-groups? The 4 editors would presumably still be talking to each other! It would also increasingly narrow and compartmentalize resources. Check out Wikipedia:WikiProject Vespidae for a project that failed to generate much buzz after the classes ended, but that project at least has the benefit of occasional faculty (and/or grad student) oversight. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Oligochaetes for an example of not-so well thought out WikiProject: one editor being interested in an obscure group of animals (at least among the general pool of Wikipedia editors likely to contribute) is not enough to get a project going. Drawbacks of too small or narrowly focused projects include too much self-assessment, loss of editor interest, increased administrative load, and less efficient communication between users. Honestly, if stub creation of every beetle species (and genus, subgenus, tribe, subtribe...) is a goal, then maybe just get a bot to do it once and for all (how many stubs are essentially fleshed out data points from say Carabidae.org?), so that editors can focus on expanding and improving articles. I feel that splitting or dividing projects, makes it more difficult to coordinate efforts between editors. It would be great if we had a team of professional Ichneumonidae specialists dedicated to improving Icheunomidae articles, but realistically we likely never will, and until that happens, keeping all wasps articles visible to a general insect project and perhaps a Hymenoptera task force would be most prudent. --Animalparty-- (talk) 00:28, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Lastly, to Mishae's claims that having large amounts of articles impedes maintenance or location of articles, let's work on those issues first, lest in our haste we create more serious ones. What exactly are you seeking, and where are you looking? --Animalparty-- (talk) 00:28, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

@Animalparty: Well for one, you are right about Wikipedia:WikiProject Oligochaetes to be a bad example of a project. But, the beetles is a huge order. It have millions of species equaling to Lepidoptera. What am I seeking is to change WikiProject Insects to WikiProject Beetles because a smaller subproject still have alphabetical order, but is not so impeding. For example WikiProject Beetles as of now have 10,266 articles while Lepidoptera have 86,000 and Insects have 40,000+. But, its pointless for me to say anything since no one here will listen, and I already violated WP:CONSENSUS since I don't know when the debate will end. :(--Mishae (talk) 03:08, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
@Mishae: are you saying one of the reasons you want to divide articles into new projects is so that categories like Category:WikiProject Beetles articles or Category:WikiProject Insects articles have fewer entries? They are already navigable by alphabetical order due to {{Category TOC}} or {{large category TOC}}, and sub-sorted by, for instance, Category:Ant task force articles. A handy trick for narrowing even further is to modify the url to include the word you're seeking, e.g. to go straight to Carabus simply modify the url to https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:WikiProject_Beetles_articles&from=Carabus. --Animalparty-- (talk) 21:59, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
@Animalparty: Have you read what I said above? Even alphabetically it is hard to navigate through a vast list of insects. I also said that WP:OVERTAGGING will be a problem because users who want to look and update beetle articles will have 2 banners to choose from (one short and one long), which will be redundant. I don't see a reason for both tags present to ensure confusion. As for url, that should be the last resort. Beetles is a huge order that's why templating it as a separate project is a must. After this we can create task forces, such as Ground beetle task force for example. I think I gave plenty reasonable explanations even repeated them serveral times, yet no one here listens to it either way. :(--Mishae (talk) 22:34, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
@Mishae: Difficulty in navigation, if indeed a widely held view, might be solved by sorting project articles into more stub categories and/or (a reasonable number of) task-force categories, or perhaps there are more advanced templates, tools, and navigational aids we can employ to aid in finding articles (e.g. Wikipedia:CatScan). I personally don't think that large categories are inherently bad, and we certainly shouldn't make large, far-reaching, or controversial changes simply to appease, or make life more convenient for, any single user. WP:OVERTAGGING, and the entire WP:TAGGING essay, concerns maintenance templates like {{refimprove}} or {{POV}}, and so not really pertinent to Wiki Projects, although note that it also alludes to Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point, which can apply to either removal or addition of any template. You may be referring to "Overtagging is disruptive" section of WP:PROJSCOPE, but in the case of tagging WP Beetles And vs Or WP Insects, where consensus is currently undecided (hopefully this discussion will help that), I don't think a small amount of redundancy on Talk pages is inherently bad or disruptive; that project overtagging guideline concerns tangentially related projects. I disagree with your view that "Beetles is a huge order that's why templating it as a separate project is a must", but please don't confuse disagreement with refusal to listen; your views may or not be shared by others, but consensus means we may not always get what we want. --Animalparty-- (talk) 00:07, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
I am in agreement with Animalparty on the one key issue that keeps getting missed here (especially, but not exclusively, by Mishae). I will stress the important concepts to avoid any misunderstanding. A WikiProject is a means of organising editors. If, for instance, exactly the same group of editors were to work on two related sets of articles, then there would be no point in setting up a second project for the second group, because those editors already have a site where they can talk to each other freely. The number of articles involved (either existing or potential) is entirely irrelevant. Is WikiProject Beetles so busy with all manner of varied discussions that it's impossible for a set of Carabidae specialists to discuss their particular issues? No? Then you don't need to split the project in order to facilitate their work. I don't think there's even a very strong argument for splitting WP:Beetles from WP:Insects – WT:Insects is not so chaotic that coleopterists can't have a beetle-specific discussion there. (Of the 6 topics higher up this page at the time of writing, one is exclusively about beetles and one is a list of missing articles that includes beetles alongside the other orders.) Splitting WP:Beetles further would be extremely unwise. --Stemonitis (talk) 07:48, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
@Stemonitis: I personally don't know from where you got those A WikiProject is a means of organising editors and The number of articles involved (either existing or potential) is entirely irrelevant but then explain to me why WikiProject Sports for example have subprojects like Football, Baseball, Basketball, etc, and non of them are task forces, but rather independent projects? Either way, this discussion will be closed without my input, since I will be blocked for a month. I'm proposing to live it as it is now (half like this, half like that), until I will be back.--Mishae (talk) 22:34, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
There are lots of editors who edit within the field of football, but are not so interested in other sports. The same for baseball, basketball and the others. If all discussions of sport-related articles occurred in a single place, it would be chaotic indeed. --Stemonitis (talk) 06:56, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
There's a bit that went off topic specifically to task forces in Wikiproject Insects. Just commenting on the topic of this section, I agree with Animalparty and Stemonitis with considering a specific task force when appropriate. I'm only looking at this as a method to organize people where we feel we need it rather than starting one for every order, etc. If someone wants to start a new task force, probably best to ask here first if the group thinks it would be worthwhile to avoid unneeded projects. Doing so would also show if there is a decent sized community involved in that area of work first to justify splitting off into their own Wikiproject if they are so inclined as well. Kingofaces43 (talk) 19:45, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
I totally agree with that. I really think its a pity there are so few editors for such a vast topic (I know there are about 50, but for a topic that covers 1,000,000 articles, that's underserved). I propose that recruiting should be a priority. Gug01 (talk) 22:00, 4 April 2015 (UTC)