Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan

Is this the correct name in English?

I just created an article called Soushoku danshi I don't know if this the correct title of the name in English. Dwanyewest (talk) 06:21, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

In Japanese, it's normally Sōshokukei danshi (草食系男子), but you may want to consider merging your new article with the existing article at Herbivore men before moving everything to Sōshokukei danshi. --DAJF (talk) 06:32, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I have started a merger proposal at Soushoku danshi's talk page if anyone wishes to discuss the future of both articles be my guest. Dwanyewest (talk) 10:36, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

As the existing article at Herbivore men already has a year's worth of edit history that needs to be retained, wouldn't it make more sense to boldly merge any new material from the recently created Soushoku danshi into Herbivore men before starting a move discussion to determine the best final destination for the article (likely to be either the correct Romanized Japanese at Sōshokukei danshi or the English at Herbivore men)? In my experience, merge proposals just hang around for months or even years without anything happening. --DAJF (talk) 05:26, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree. A bold merge to Herbivore men and then a proposed move discussion will likely be a more efficient way of doing this. — Mr. Stradivarius ^♫ 05:35, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Akashi crowd crush

I started the article. Request assistance to add Japanese name and link to wp.ja article. Thank you. Cla68 (talk) 22:33, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Added both. While wp.ja title is ja:明石花火大会歩道橋事故, it seems common to refer to the incident without 花火大会, I removed it from Japanese name. --Kusunose 02:00, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

For some reason, that page is screwing up my browser... Is there some broken coding on it? 70.24.245.198 (talk) 04:48, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

It's working for me. Is that the only Wikipedia article your browser is having trouble with? Cla68 (talk) 05:07, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes. 70.24.251.194 (talk) 09:25, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Toki o Kakeru Shōjo

The naming of Toki o Kakeru Shōjo is under discussion, please see Talk:Toki o Kakeru Shōjo. 76.65.128.132 (talk) 05:06, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Right to left support

Sorry for this somewhat vague question. What kind of support (if any) is there for the traditional style of Japanese writing in wikipedia (columns from right to left)? For instance, are there any templates that allow to:

1. Convert text to this format for display in an article
2. Display very wide images (e.g. of a scroll) in such a way that the slider starts at the very right (i.e. at the beginning of the scroll).
3. Some kind of warning box (similar to the not too popular {{Contains Japanese text}}) telling the reader that all images in the article are to be read or viewed from right to left.
4. any other things you could think of

In case these don't exist, do you think that having them (which?) could be useful? Thank you. bamse (talk) 17:54, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Hmm...this might be something for the developers to answer. If it doesn't exist, it might not be too hard to do since we have support for Arabic and other horizontal right to left languages. It would probably have to have short columns, though, perhaps limited to 30-50 characters before going to the next column. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 06:26, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Do you think it would be useful to have such? bamse (talk) 08:28, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I suspect this would be pretty huge to do properly as per Nihonjoe. The devs have been fighting to resolve RTL?LTR problems for years. But a simple template for a few columns shouldn't be too hard, and I think there are probably CSS tricks that would help. Accessibility issues might loom large. [ed:Actually I think they don't.] Rich Farmbrough, 17:20, 27 January 2012 (UTC).

Here's a quick hack. There's limitations (which may be solvable) and obvious improvements (which certainly are).

原作者の筒井も本作を、「本当の意味での二代目」と語っている。

年 『時をかける少女』 （ アニメ映画 ） 製作：「時をかける少女」製作委員会、配給：角川ヘラルド映画、監督：細田守

原田知世がナレーションを担当している。白黒作品。

人も多い“幻の作品”。

大林版をプロデュースした元角川書店社長の角川春樹が自ら監督となって制作。制作に角川書店は一切関わっておらず、大々的な宣伝を打つことも無く公開されたため、存在自体を知らない

1 9 9 7 年 『時をかける少女』 （ （ 新 ） 角川春樹事務所 ） 主演：中本奈奈、監督：角川春樹

出演：尾美としのり、岸部一徳、根岸季衣、高林陽一、上原謙、入江たか子、高柳良一

原田知世主演による大ヒット映画。大林監督の代表作「尾道三部作」の一つと数えられる。

年 『時をかける少女』 （ （ 旧 ） 角川春樹事務所 ） 主演 ： 原田知世、監督 ： 大林宣彦

Rich Farmbrough, 18:03, 27 January 2012 (UTC).

Thank you. I was wondering why for instance "大林" appears towards the end of the first column correctly and at the beginning of the fifth column incorrectly? PS: Any chance that "2" is achievable in wikipedia? bamse (talk) 20:53, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't really know, some things seem to bind more tightly than others. For example I had top break up the year 1997 (ideally the western characters might be rendere on their sides). Village Pump(T) is probably your friend here.

and yes it looks like left-right scroll is achievable. I would assume the RTL languages must be able to force the slider to the right. And here is a rtl scrollbar. Rich Farmbrough, 22:06, 27 January 2012 (UTC).

Cool! Thanks a lot. Could the problems with {{Vertical text RTL}} be due to different character encodings or wide/narrow characters? It seems the scrollbar also works for images. In fact I'd only need it for images, not text. Could this scrollbar feature be made into a template? bamse (talk) 23:12, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Easy enough. {{RTL scroll}}

I don't know about encodings (Unicode planes, perhaps) I get a feeling that "『時" is somehow involved - I can't read Japanese. I know that the software doesn't like breaking up Western characters, so I tried to surround them all by spaces. You could space every pair of characters, but that goes against the grain of usability. Rich Farmbrough, 11:27, 28 January 2012 (UTC).

But certainly if the widest character is wider than two other adjacent character, that would break things. Rich Farmbrough, 11:30, 28 January 2012 (UTC).

Test with spaces everywhere

原 作 者 の 筒 井 も 本 作 を 、 「 本 当 の 意 味 で の 二 代 目 」 と 語 っ て い る 。

年 『 時 を か け る 少 女 』 （ ア ニ メ 映 画 ） 製 作 ： 「 時 を か け る 少 女 」 製 作 委 員 会 、 配 給 ： 角 川 ヘ ラ ル ド 映 画 、 監 督 ： 細 田 守

原 田 知 世 が ナ レ ー シ ョ ン を 担 当 し て い る 。 白 黒 作 品 。

人 も 多 い “ 幻 の 作 品 ” 。

大 林 版 を プ ロ デ ュ ー ス し た 元 角 川 書 店 社 長 の 角 川 春 樹 が 自 ら 監 督 と な っ て 制 作 。 制 作 に 角 川 書 店 は 一 切 関 わ っ て お ら ず 、 大 々 的 な 宣 伝 を 打 つ こ と も 無 く 公 開 さ れ た た め 、 存 在 自 体 を 知 ら な い

1 9 9 7 年 『 時 を か け る 少 女 』 （ （ 新 ） 角 川 春 樹 事 務 所 ） 主 演 ： 中 本 奈 奈 、 監 督 ： 角 川 春 樹

出 演 ： 尾 美 と し の り 、 岸 部 一 徳 、 根 岸 季 衣 、 高 林 陽 一 、 上 原 謙 、 入 江 た か 子 、 高 柳 良 一

原 田 知 世 主 演 に よ る 大 ヒ ッ ト 映 画 。 大 林 監 督 の 代 表 作 「 尾 道 三 部 作 」 の 一 つ と 数 え ら れ る 。

年 『 時 を か け る 少 女 』 （ （ 旧 ） 角 川 春 樹 事 務 所 ） 主 演 ： 原 田 知 世 、 監 督 ： 大 林 宣 彦

Punctuation marks are not correct. See Japanese punctuation. Does this help? Oda Mari (talk) 15:20, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for {{RTL scroll}}. Could you add an option for a caption and for alt text as in {{Wide image}}? bamse (talk) 15:31, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

The one issue I see with the {{Vertical text RTL}} is that you need to remember to replace ー with ｜. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 23:41, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

原 作 者 の 筒 井 も 本 作 を 、 「 本 当 の 意 味 で の 二 代 目 」 と 語 っ て い る 。

年 『 時 を か け る 少 女 』 （ ア ニ メ 映 画 ） 製 作 ： 「 時 を か け る 少 女 」 製 作 委 員 会 、 配 給 ： 角 川 ヘ ラ ル ド 映 画 、 監 督 ： 細 田 守

原 田 知 世 が ナ レ ｜ シ ョ ン を 担 当 し て い る 。 白 黒 作 品 。

人 も 多 い “ 幻 の 作 品 ” 。

大 林 版 を プ ロ デ ュ ｜ ス し た 元 角 川 書 店 社 長 の 角 川 春 樹 が 自 ら 監 督 と な っ て 制 作 。 制 作 に 角 川 書 店 は 一 切 関 わ っ て お ら ず 、 大 々 的 な 宣 伝 を 打 つ こ と も 無 く 公 開 さ れ た た め 、 存 在 自 体 を 知 ら な い

1 9 9 7 年 『 時 を か け る 少 女 』 （ （ 新 ） 角 川 春 樹 事 務 所 ） 主 演 ： 中 本 奈 奈 、 監 督 ： 角 川 春 樹

出 演 ： 尾 美 と し の り 、 岸 部 一 徳 、 根 岸 季 衣 、 高 林 陽 一 、 上 原 謙 、 入 江 た か 子 、 高 柳 良 一

原 田 知 世 主 演 に よ る 大 ヒ ッ ト 映 画 。 大 林 監 督 の 代 表 作 「 尾 道 三 部 作 」 の 一 つ と 数 え ら れ る 。

年 『 時 を か け る 少 女 』 （ （ 旧 ） 角 川 春 樹 事 務 所 ） 主 演 ： 原 田 知 世 、 監 督 ： 大 林 宣 彦

Just FYI, the vertical text can be achieved by using "writing-mode" property. However unfortunately it is not yet supported by browsers other than Internet Explorer.[1] I think it is difficult to achive the function by limiting the cell width. If you are using Internet Explorer, the following text can be seen as vertical text.

年 『時をかける少女』 （ （ 旧 ） 角川春樹事務所 ） 主演 ： 原田知世、監督 ： 大林宣彦| 原田知世主演による大ヒット映画。大林監督の代表作「尾道三部作」の一つと数えられる。

出演：尾美としのり、岸部一徳、根岸季衣、高林陽一、上原謙、入江たか子、高柳良一

1 9 9 7 年 『時をかける少女』 （ （ 新 ） 角川春樹事務所 ） 主演：中本奈奈、監督：角川春樹| 大林版をプロデュースした元角川書店社長の角川春樹が自ら監督となって制作。制作に角川書店は一切関わっておらず、大々的な宣伝を打つことも無く公開されたため、存在自体を知らない|人も多い“幻の作品”。

原田知世がナレーションを担当している。白黒作品。

年 『時をかける少女』（アニメ映画）製作：「時をかける少女」製作委員会、配給：角川ヘラルド映画、監督：細田守

大林版実写映画の約年後、年を舞台とした新たな物語。主人公の紺野真琴は、芳山和子の姪となっている。

原作者の筒井も本作を、「本当の意味での二代目」と語っている。

―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 00:50, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

原 作 者 の 筒 井 も 本 作 を 、 「 本 当 の 意 味 で の 二 代 目 」 と 語 っ て い る 。

年 『 時 を か け る 少 女 』 （ ア ニ メ 映 画 ） 製 作 ： 「 時 を か け る 少 女 」 製 作 委 員 会 、 配 給 ： 角 川 ヘ ラ ル ド 映 画 、 監 督 ： 細 田 守

原 田 知 世 が ナ レ ｜ シ ョ ン を 担 当 し て い る 。 白 黒 作 品 。

人 も 多 い “ 幻 の 作 品 ” 。

大 林 版 を プ ロ デ ュ ｜ ス し た 元 角 川 書 店 社 長 の 角 川 春 樹 が 自 ら 監 督 と な っ て 制 作 。 制 作 に 角 川 書 店 は 一 切 関 わ っ て お ら ず 、 大 々 的 な 宣 伝 を 打 つ こ と も 無 く 公 開 さ れ た た め 、 存 在 自 体 を 知 ら な い

1 9 9 7 年 『 時 を か け る 少 女 』 （ （ 新 ） 角 川 春 樹 事 務 所 ） 主 演 ： 中 本 奈 奈 、 監 督 ： 角 川 春 樹

出 演 ： 尾 美 と し の り 、 岸 部 一 徳 、 根 岸 季 衣 、 高 林 陽 一 、 上 原 謙 、 入 江 た か 子 、 高 柳 良 一

原 田 知 世 主 演 に よ る 大 ヒ ッ ト 映 画 。 大 林 監 督 の 代 表 作 「 尾 道 三 部 作 」 の 一 つ と 数 え ら れ る 。

年 『 時 を か け る 少 女 』 （ （ 旧 ） 角 川 春 樹 事 務 所 ） 主 演 ： 原 田 知 世 、 監 督 ： 大 林 宣 彦

Think including scrolling into the RTL template wouldn't be good? 70.49.124.157 (talk) 05:29, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Punctuation marks are still incorrect. See the image.

Oda Mari (talk) 07:25, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

How do you type them? I can't figure out how to get the correct ones to show up. I can't find the correct punctuation in my character lists. If we can figure out which Unicode characters they are, perhaps we can figure out how to type them (or maybe get them added to the little edit box drop down list as "Vertical Japanese punctuation" or something like that). ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 08:46, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I found them on my character map under "CJK Compatibility Forms". The characters ﹁﹂﹃﹄ have unicode codes of U+FE41, U+FE42, U+FE43, and U+FE44 respectively. It looks like you can type them in by following the instructions at Unicode input#Hexadecimal code input (it worked for me on X11). I couldn't find the vertical version of the full stop "。" though. — Mr. Stradivarius ^♫ 10:13, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

The Unicode character encoding is the same regardless of whether it is the horizontal or vertical representation. "Unicode conforming software can substitute the proper glyphs for the same character..." Please see Unicode compatibility characters#Glyph substitution and composition. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 10:21, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

If they are indeed the same character (which doesn't make sense to me), then we have to somehow convince the system to display the vertical version of the punctuation instead of the horizontal version. Since that would likely require an OS-level call to each person's computer, I don't know if we'll be able to do that with this current template. If the characters are actually different (meaning they have different encodings), then we should still be able to do it. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 22:44, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

If the software (word processor or rich text editor) knows the text should be written vertically, it changes the font to the one with @ prefix i.e. MS Gothic to @MS Gothic. @MS Gothic font can be seen as vertical text by rotating it 90 degree. I tried to show the font here, however Wikitext didn't accept the font, although it can be displayed in my native browser (IE).

I found another method to display vertical texts, If this html code is accepted in Wikitext, it can be incorporated in template. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 09:02, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, and that's something built into the OS, not the browser, and it's not currently supported in CSS2 as far as I can tell. Once CSS3 gets finalized, and the browsers all update their rendering engines appropriately, it will be as simple as using the correct CSS formatting. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 09:22, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Vertical right-to-left: Template:MongolUnicode mod

Regarding vertical RTL text for Japanese, why not make a modification based on Template:MongolUnicode? Currently its only used to properly display Mongolian script which is only written vertically RTL, and never horizontally (and only works in IE8.0+, with Windows Vista Mongol fonts installed), but it can be optimised for CJK text as well. Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can editウィキペディアはオープンコンテントの百科事典です The above text will appear horizontal in Firefox, Chrome and Opera, but vertical in later versions of IE and Mozilla Nightly. Adding <br> will start a new RTL line. Using this template allows a reader to copypaste text displayed vertically, and still be able to paste it into a word processor and be able to have a perfect copy of the exact same series of text, at least horizontally, unlike using tables and breaks. Admittedly, support by certain browsers is quite incomplete (see File:15jul2010 mongol firefox-ie compare.png), though the Firefox devs seem to be working on the issue apparently (for quite some time, at that). If it isn't viable to be implemented now, I guess a mod of the template could also be used in the future once browser devs get their act together. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 08:42, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 4) It can't really be done like you suggest right now for the very reasons you lay out: only IE8+ supports it. It's not so much the "devs getting their acts together" (which can be taken as rude, implying they are doing nothing at all when the opposite is likely true). From what I understand, it's more of them waiting for CSS3 to be sorted out before they go committing to a specific way of doing something. We just need to be patient. Rich's workaround should work okay for now. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 09:00, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

The Template:MongolUnicode uses "writing-mode" property with "vertical-lr" parameter.[2] So, as I said above and Nihonjoe pointed out, we cannot use the property until CSS3 is standardized and almost all the browsers support the property. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 09:18, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

According to the Mongolian script article, Mongolian is actually vertical LTR, not RTL. 70.24.247.54 (talk) 05:56, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Generalized template

Perhaps this should be generalized for LTR and RTL? {{Vertical script}} and {{Vertical script/core}} with a specific invocation for LTR and RTL {{Vertical script/RTL}} and {{Vertical script/LTR}} . Then {{Vertical script}} could have a switch for direction selecting the specific subtemplate to use. 70.24.247.54 (talk) 05:59, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Defaultsort

There is some discussion over the Defaultsort of Japanese names with the "no" element in them (like Fujiwara no Sadakata). Some use "Fujiwara, Sadakata" while others defaultsorts those as Fujiwara no, Sadakata. Could some of you please give your opinion on this, or point to previous discussions, guidelines, ... related to this specific aspect? Your comments are welcome at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Formal_proposal, or if you prefer to avoid WP:AN, on my talk page or here. Thanks! Fram (talk) 13:40, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Actually of those three venues only here makes sense. Also there is another question just as important (probably more important), I see the DEFAULTSORT as set up by experts generally being of the form "Fujiwara no, Sadakata" in some few cases "Fujiwara, no Sadakata". While it seems to me consistency is all that is important here , and so I have been going with the apparent consensus "Fujiwara no, Sadakata", I would be interested if there are good reasons to do things differently. Rich Farmbrough, 14:18, 27 January 2012 (UTC).

Well, I tried to pose a neutral question about what the defaultsort for these articles should be, without upfront giving supposedly "expert" opinions. Nice way of getting your preferred method immediatley labeled the "expert" version. Perhaps we can now let other people discuss this without trying to promote any version over the other? Fram (talk) 14:25, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and you neutrally suggested they answer at AN or your talk page, so that you could use it as ammunition in your campaign? Unlike you I just want an answer, I am not invested in whether it is the same answer as I had. You also asked an incomplete question, failing to understand that I have no re-asked your question, but a different one, although it may of course be, quite reasonably, that there is no opinion here on that, or only opinion of the form "This is what I would do, but either way as long as it is consistent." - which in fact is my opinion, and why I went with what appeared to be consensus. I would like to say that I never dreamed such a choice would be brought up against me at AN, but of course I know full well that anything I do can be twisted to those ends by you. Rich Farmbrough, 17:10, 27 January 2012 (UTC).

Since I had (and have) no idea what their opinion would be, I can hardly be accused of some devious plan to use it as ammunition in my "campaign". Can we please let those people who would still be inclined to answer do whatever they want with it, and keep the conspiracy theories and half-baked reasonings of this page? Fram (talk) 20:05, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

I wish you would. Rich Farmbrough, 22:11, 27 January 2012 (UTC).

The one which makes most sense if you want to include everything in the title is "Fujiwara no, Sadakata" (to use the example here) as "Fujiwara" is the surname and "Sadakata" is the given name. The "no" is simply an older way of indicating that "Sadakata" belongs to the "Fujiwara" family. This would produce the desired result of sorting by surname first, then by given name, which is the whole point of DEFAULTSORT when used on biography pages. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 01:31, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Agree with Nihonjoe. Just out of curiosity, how are names with van, von, "de" (French) sorted? bamse (talk) 10:23, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Just for a comparison, the Library of Congress ignores the "no" when cataloging names from this era, omitting it both in figuring alphabetization, and in name authority (for example). The "no" is only treated as an alternate name. Michitaro (talk) 13:06, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Dutch names are sorted with "van" sent to the end but with "Van" kept, I believe. In general we send lower case prefixes to the end, but not always, and keep upper case. There are essentially three four meta-rules fighting each other.

1. Sort without lower-case prefixes
2. Sort as the native country would
3. Sort by what the "name" is: under this rule "mac", "ibn", "bint" , "ap" and "nic" etc are part of the name as are prefixes meaning "The" and "of the", but words meaning "of" are disregarded. (English "Foo of Bar" is generally unsorted, but in this case neither Foo nor Bar are generally family names.)
4. Sort by where people "would look"

Obviously all these present difficulties, 1. treats "van Plonk" differently from "Van Plonk" - a naive user is not going to expect this (and even a sophisticated one might not remember the capitalisation). 2. Is basically politically correct, but sorts similar names differently. 3 is logical but sorts "de Foo" differently depending on whether it is French of Dutch (and requires some knowledge of every language used in name-making). 4 is a nice try, but of course different people would look in different places.

Since all these apply to family name prefixes, rather than suffixes, they help us not.

Rich Farmbrough, 15:22, 29 January 2012 (UTC).

great start of an article

There's a great start of an article at User:Yokohama1/sandbox, I'd like to move it into mainspace soon. Could you all please take a look and tweak what you see necessary? 有難うございます!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 02:40, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

The page is now at International Boy Scouts, Troop 1, where you moved it only 8 minutes after posting here. The article really needs some rewriting to be more encyclopedic in tone and definitely needs some references. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 09:24, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

RM

There's a requested move at Talk:Dai Kan-Wa jiten#Requested move that could probably use some input from members of this project. Cheers, Jenks24 (talk) 11:41, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

WikiWomen's History Month

Hi everyone. March is Women's History Month and I'm hoping a few folks here at WP:Japan will have interest in putting on events (on and off wiki) related to women's roles in Japan's history, society and culture. We've created an event page on English Wikipedia (please translate!) and I hope you'll find the inspiration to participate. These events can take place off wiki, like edit-a-thons, or on wiki, such as themes and translations. Please visit the page here: WikiWomen's History Month. Thanks for your consideration and I look forward to seeing events take place! SarahStierch (talk) 21:32, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Translation

Not sure about the following: 若狭国松永庄新八幡宮 (Wakasa Province...) taken from here. Can somebody help? bamse (talk) 23:09, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

It can be divided like this. 若狭国 松永庄 新八幡宮. 松永庄/Matsunagashō is a place name. According to these pages [3] and [4], the location was the eastern part of today's Obama, Fukui. There's a river called Matsunaga. See the map. And Sho means Shōen. 新八幡宮 /Shin Hachimangū is the name of a Shinto shrine there then, meaning "new Hachiman shrine". Oda Mari (talk) 06:22, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. bamse (talk) 08:00, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Regarding 庄, this book says "manor"; the Yano manor in Iga province, Ikeda manor in TōTōmi province, Nitta manor in Kōzuke Province.[5] I prefer "Matsunaga manor" to "Matsunaga-shō". Because no one knows the meaning of "shō" and WP:MOSJA#Place names says a Japanese suffix allowed is only "-ku" and others are English suffixes. As for 新八幡宮, I am not sure which is the better, "Shin Hachiman-gū ", "New Hachiman-gū" or "new Hachiman-gū". Probably it is determined by what extent "新八幡宮" is regarded as a proper name. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 08:34, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Phoenix, "Matsunagashō" and "Shin Hachimangū" are transliteration of the kanji I wrote for Bamse as I thought he didn't know how to read them. I didn't mean them as translation for articles. Oda Mari (talk) 10:02, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. No, I meant as translation for an article. Would "Matsunaga manor" and "Shin Hachiman-gū" (New... looks a bit strange to me) be ok? bamse (talk) 11:15, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

If I might an interject an opinion: I like the "Matsunaga Manor", but with the shrine, I might go a step further and write "Shin-Hachiman shrine". Boneyard90 (talk) 11:35, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

As you pointed out, "Matsunaga manor" should be "Matsunaga Manor". As for "Shin Hachiman-gū", WP:MOSJA#Temples and shrines says "Use the Japanese name and insert a hyphen before bō (坊), dō (堂), in (院), ji (寺), gū (宮), sha (社), taisha (大社) and tera/dera (寺). However, write the English word "Shrine" in place of jinja (神社), jingū (神宮) and myōjin (明神)." There is an article Hachiman shrine, however there is an article Tsurugaoka Hachiman-gū. I personally prefer "Shin-Hachiman shrine" as you suggested. We need more opinion on this issue. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 12:06, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

May I wikilink "Matsunaga Manor"? bamse (talk) 16:05, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Name Articles

For pages on given names and surnames, like Yūko, do we treat them as Lists, Disambiguation, or Articles? Boneyard90 (talk) 12:19, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Here are relevant guidelines:

• Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Disambiguation pages#Given names or surnames
• Wikipedia:WikiProject Anthroponymy/Standards

It depends on how much info is there about the name in question, how many people are listed, and if there is a need for disambiguation.

Cool, thank you. Boneyard90 (talk) 12:26, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

East Asian calligraphy?

East Asian calligraphy has been proposed to be renamed to Chinese calligraphy, see Talk:East Asian calligraphy

70.24.251.71 (talk) 08:19, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Curious question

Why is it that this is the English Wikipedia but if I want to read so many articles covered under the scope of this project, I need to be fluent in Japanese? English isn't found at the Japanese Wikipedia as far as I could determine, although I didn't spend hours and hours looking. Shouldn't English prevail here in the English Wikipedia? Please DO NOT mistake me, I'm all for diversity but how am I gonna check factual accuracy of anything? Looking through the list of references for many articles is impossible to comprehend. IMHO, using Japanese here as much as it is being used is "culturally exclusionary" and certainly goes against the grain of Wiki policy I would tend to think. If Japanese was my prefered primary language, I would not be here in the English Wikipedia. I should not have to use a translation service for the English Wikipedia to be translated into English. I understand there may not be an English translation for some things, and in cases such as that, no problem. Any comments? Ken Tholke (talk) 19:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean by fluent in Japanese? Do you mean using macrons, or Kanji/Kana (Japanese characters), or that not enough terms are linked to wiktionary definitions, or that too many native Japanese terms are used instead of analogous English ones?

If you mean the last or the first, I find that problem much worse in European articles, especially German, Nordic and Slavic (the slavonic languages that use a latin derived alphabet). 70.24.251.71 (talk) 05:50, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree somewhat with User:Kentholke; alot of contributors in this project use Japanese terms without adequately explaining them in text or without using an English translation. Part of this may be egotistical vanity on their part ("look at what I know!") and some of it may be an apathetic attitude toward translating, which comes through as "there's no real way to translate this into English", when there usually is. The only thing to be done is for concerned editors to slowly go through articles copyediting, translating, and generally improving. (I also agree with the AnonIP and the "European articles", but that's another matter).

As far as references, however, that is another matter. There very simply are not English sources on many of the details of Japanese history, whether events or biographies. Some of the old and revered texts in English (i.e. Samson) cover broad areas of Japanese history. Except for World War II, it often seems that there are no sources in English for specific events. Sources in Japanese often provide the best, most accurate, and most up to date information available. In conclusion, I feel that a reader should not have to use a translation service to read an article, but references can be accurate in any language.

Last, are there any specific articles you'd like to bring to the attention of project members? Boneyard90 (talk) 08:52, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

To add to Boneyard's reply, the relevant policy about non-English sources can be found at Wikipedia:Verifiability#Non-English sources. In a nutshell, yes, you are right, we do prefer English sources; however, if no English sources are available then we can use Japanese ones. As Boneyard says, the Japanese sources will be the best for many subjects. — Mr. Stradivarius ^♫ 13:27, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, let me try to clarify a little better.

I absolutely agree that Japanese language resources/references are certainly best for many articles covered under the scope of this project. Despite the references linking to Japanese language pages, I feel the reference titles and publishers should be in English as much as possible. I can easily use a translation service to read the actual page once I'm there...if I choose to go there. Occasionally, as with many article outside the scope of this project, I can read the reference title and publisher and know right off the bat that it is a credible, definitive source on where the information in question came from and has a very high chance of being correct, thereby reasoning that my time is probably better spent moving along to something else.

Currently, I have to mouseover many of the reference titles to read the DNS server text of the link in my status bar to get some sort of clue where it leads. I'm sure you can agree, DNS server text is not the optimal way to determine what many links are about. As far as the amount of Japanese that is being used, I dug deeper yesterday and saw that I perhaps I have kept landing within a minority of articles where Japanese is overly abundant. I found for the most part (after digging further) that this project's editing meets or exceeds Wiki's guidelines in respect to translation. I will begin tagging articles or sections as I happen across them where I feel translation is necessary, or I will bring them up here on this talk page. Overall, this project is a definite asset to Wiki and I for one am glad to have an opportunity to learn more about the Japanese and their culture. With more and more information being produced by this project and the English Wiki becoming more and more proliferated with it, translation to English needs to be paramount to keep English-only people from clicking away and feeling excluded or lost.

For a last note, I'm not singling out this project, I too agree there are other cultural projects which need to keep translation paramount. I'll be addressing them as well where needed. Ken Tholke (talk) 14:46, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Feel free to tag articles and add topics of your interest to Category:Articles needing translation from Japanese Wikipedia. I and other people here can work on translating some, albeit slowly.--Shinkansen Fan (talk) 12:56, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

No, please do not tag articles with "Expand Japanese". See my comment in a new section below. -- Hoary (talk) 13:34, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't referring to the use of expand tags, I was referring to PNT tags so you're safe. :) What's listed in the Articles needing Translation from Japanese Wikipedia are not what I was referring to. I just spot-checked those, I found the 8 to 10 I checked in "perfect" shape as far as translation, as well as the three articles you provided for example below.

What I saw a few days back were entire sections written in primarily in Japanese and pages with the majority of their 10 or more citations entirely in Japanese text. Each I saw the other day had to do with pop idol groups, their members and Wiki pages linked to them. There was no WP:PNT tag on any of these pages and that's what prompted me to show up here and learn how to become proactive about it. I had seen others just as bad not too long ago having to do with different topics.

Examples that approach to a small degree of what I happened across are the References sections of Girl Next Door and NMB48. What I saw the other day was far worse. These sections in particular may not need tagging but do need attention. A number of editors would tag them I strongly sense. I myself don't like to nitpick. I don't feel these need to be AfD'd following PNT tagging for what I consider a minor issue. What I saw was not minor and lent to the impression that whoever included the content had little to no regard of English-only readers here in the English Wikipedia. Again, it seems by chance that I landed only in a minority of articles. Ken Tholke (talk) 18:20, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

What I saw a few days back were entire sections written in primarily in Japanese and pages with the majority of their 10 or more citations entirely in Japanese text. I think I understand what you mean about it being hard for somebody who doesn't understand Japanese to guess at the nature of the "references" that are proffered as sources for what is said in an article. However, I don't remember having ever seen an article that's had a section primarily written in Japanese. Aside perhaps from the occasional nationalist, religious or other rant inserted by some nutball and deleted by some more experienced editor (possibly myself) within seconds of discovery. (The interminable disputes over trivial islands [or mere rocks] between the Japanese government and the governments of its neighbors tend to trigger little outbreaks of hysteria.) -- Hoary (talk) 02:01, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Takenori Kimura of Look Japan - Kanji?

I understand "木村" is the family name Kimura and "武徳" is Takenori, a given name.

The founder of Look Japan is Takenori Kimura. Is this the only possible kanji for his name? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 17:24, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

No. Even Kimura has other kanji like 木邑 and 紀村. Oda Mari (talk) 08:10, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Drama database

I know nothing about Japanese TV, but was invited to add TV adaptations to The Dancing Girl of Izu. I've just done this, each time citing tvdrama-db.com. Of course I should have asked before, but does this count as a RS?

Incidentally, the typical entry in tvdrama-db.com attributes a dorama to two or more TV stations; each time I chose just one, not really knowing why. Expert help here much appreciated!

I omitted a couple of entries that looked irrelevant to the story, instead adding these to the talk page. Somebody knowing more than I do may wish to add them to the article.

Unsurprisingly, the corresponding information/misinformation within the Japanese-language equivalent. (Occasionally I look at ja:WP's featured article of the day, just to reassure myself that yes, a few contributors over there have indeed heard of the concept of sourcing.) -- Hoary (talk) 10:32, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

"Articles needing translation from Japanese Wikipedia"

To Shinkansen Fan (a little way above), or others here:

I don't understand why you would wish to encourage somebody to chuck articles into Category:Articles needing translation from Japanese Wikipedia. I looked at the category a few minutes ago and among all the dams, etc, picked three articles on subjects I'd heard of:

• Mount Bizan asks for translation from ja:眉山 (徳島市), which has one footnote.
• Arata Isozaki asks for translation from ja:磯崎新, which has two footnotes.
• Michio Hoshino asks for translation from ja:星野道夫, which has two footnotes.

I do not claim that my sample of three articles is representative. I'd be happy to learn that it is not (although in my experience of ja:WP, unsourced assertions are not the exception but the rule). But as it is, asking for the addition to these en:WP articles of material translated from ja:WP is asking for the addition of unsourced material. What ever happened to "WP:V"?

Isozaki is particularly well known in the anglosphere. There's at least one book in English on his work. Asking some intelligent contributor here to read and digest a book (in whatever language) on Isozaki and then to summarize the important bits in order to augment the article here about him: now that would make sense. -- Hoary (talk) 13:31, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

When I translate articles, I tend to use any refs in the jawp article, and then find a few others of my own. I don't see a problem with asking for articles to be translated. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:22, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

That's commendable. But here's what the template now says: A corresponding article in the Japanese Wikipedia may contain information and sources useful in building this article. Typically, the article contains lists of assertions (maybe information, maybe misinformation) with virtually no sources. Indeed, if you take up the suggestion of clicking "[show]", you read: Do not translate text that appears unreliable or low-quality. If possible, verify the text with references provided in the foreign-language article. Have I had an extraordinary run of bad luck in ja:WP? Whether because of this bad luck, because of my misunderstanding of the articles I've seen there, or because of the actual crappiness of ja:WP, the text has usually lacked references and thus been unreliable. And so the template is usually pointless (self-defeating) if read carefully and potentially dangerous if read hastily. -- Hoary (talk) 02:11, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Note that it states "may contain", not that it absolutely will contain them. It's up to the editors here to make sure the topic has enough in the way of sources to support the content of the article, and to find additional sources if needed (and it usually is needed). Regardless, it can be a useful template and is used for many languages other than Japanese. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 02:24, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Well yes, true, it does indeed say "may contain". But I wonder how it can be useful. ¶ When I see the template, I take it to mean Somebody has noticed that this article is inadequate and that its equivalent in Japanese-language Wikipedia seems to be longer. So this person (perhaps unable to read any Japanese, and unfamiliar with Japanese-language Wikipedia) hopes that the content of the Japanese article would appear in this one too. If the subject happens to interest me, I often click on the link and look at the Japanese article. Almost always it's virtually unsourced -- Have I been unlucky here? -- and very often it's pretty dreary too (the writers of ja:WP are particularly keen on chronologies). ¶ I don't deny that good articles in ja:WP exist, or that the poor majority aren't indirectly useful: the unsourced list of film adaptations in 伊豆の踊子 prompted me to look in the 聞蔵 database of Asahi Shinbun and there find one article via which I could add a sourced list to the English equivalent. But with or without a template, if I'm disappointed by an article here about something Japanese and am interested in the subject, it's likely that I'll look at the Japanese article to see if anything there is usable. ¶ How do you find the template useful, or how do you suppose that others might find it useful? -- Hoary (talk) 09:53, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, it's apparent that nothing I write will encourage you to see the usefulness of the template. Regardless of your opinion, the template (and the others like it for other languages) are found useful by a significant portion of people here. If you don't find it helpful, don't use it. Others of us will continue to use it as needed. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 07:06, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm not as open-minded as I'd like to think, but I do like to think I'm open-minded. I've been wondering how anyone (whether a highly experienced editor such as yourself, somebody who is new, or people anywhere between) finds this template useful, and still don't know. (NB I'm not asking about "Expand German" and the others.) Occasionally in the past I've seen the "Expand Japanese" template attached to admittedly mediocre (or worse) articles on subjects in which I've had an interest, clicked on the link, and found that, sure enough, the Japanese article was largely unsourced. Knowing that even an accurate translation of the Japanese article would result in the addition of unsourced material, I've then removed the template. I don't (yet) regret having done this, and indeed I'm inclined to remove the template from the three articles I've listed above, as I think its appearance may encourage poor practice. Is there something about the template that I fail to understand? -- Hoary (talk) 23:54, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Discussion at Kawaii

If anybody wants to help out User:Hoary, he initiated a discussion at Talk:Kawaii#So what is this "kawaii" anyway?. I couldn't help. Boneyard90 (talk) 20:00, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

What about the definition of "charisma?" Does that approach kawaii? I get the impression kawaii falls in between cute and charismatic. Ken Tholke (talk) 02:02, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

The kana vandal returneth

Some of you may recall an issue with an IP adding bizarre examples to kana articles some months ago. Just an FYI, he's still at it intermittently from other IPs now (I blocked his base IP for a year in December). If you see an IP adding Super Mario characters or other video game references as examples for kana pronunciations in any of the kana articles (the only ones that haven't been hit are ゐ, ゑ, and ン), revert them on sight (it's a good excuse to break out the mass rollback feature) and report them to AIV, or if you're an admin give an extended block to the IP on sight. Last time this IP added these examples no one noticed until another editor had edited most of the individual kana pages, and it was a nightmare to clean them all up. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:34, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Update; the kana vandal made another raid last night, which I've cleaned up from; all the IPs were on the 198.228.201.0/24 range, which I've blocked for 31 hours. Keep an eye out for that range and other AT&T ranges in the future. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:19, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

SoXa Aoi

Should 蒼井そら remain Sora Aoi, or should she be Sola Aoi? See this. -- Hoary (talk) 01:21, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

IMO, this RM raises questions far beyond the issue of whether a star of Japanese hardcore can pronounce the letter l. Kauffner (talk) 02:51, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

There is no issue of whether she can pronounce the letter "l". Her name includes some kind of /r/. Narrowly, it's likely to be [ɽ], but it could well be something else. She chooses to have it written as "l". It's a matter of orthography, not pronunciation. (Of academic interest only: If speakers of English pronounce it as "l", they'll mispronounce it; if they pronounce it as any of the normal realizations of English /r/, they'll also mispronounce it.) -- Hoary (talk) 02:29, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Objection to the use of a religious symbol as a symbol for Japan

I would like to raise an objection to the use of a "torii" as a symbol for Japan on the "Wikiproject Japan" box which is added to each talk page of a subject concerning Japan:

Regardless of whether it is a good photo, or a recognizable symbol, the "torii" has a religious significance, and it is inappropriate to label the talk page of every article about Japan with a religious symbol. I request that the picture of the "torii" be replaced with a neutral symbol, such as an outline map of Japan or a photograph of a neutral Japanese object such as an uchiwa. Please note that Mount Fuji has a religious significance in Nichiren buddhism and I would object to its use as an alternative for similar reasons. JoshuSasori (talk) 09:15, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: You have not described why you think a religious symbol is "inappropriate". You also have not stated whether the image violates any specific Wikipedia policies or guidelines.Boneyard90 (talk) 11:20, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I have not objected to the image itself, but to its use on the talk page of any and every page related to Japan. For example, on the Buddhism in Japan page. It makes Wikiproject Japan look ignorant and culturally insensitive. JoshuSasori (talk) 11:55, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Ok, you haven't described why you think a religious symbol is "inappropriate" for use on a banner and every Talk page related to Japan. You have not stated whether the image, as it is used in a WikiProject and on a WikiProject banner, violates any specific Wikipedia policies or guidelines. You haven't said how the image makes WP:Japan look "ignorant and culturally insensitive". Boneyard90 (talk) 13:18, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

The torii, the red construction in the image, is a religious symbol related to the Shinto religion. Wikiproject Japan is thus putting a religious symbol on the talk page of every page related to Japan, including on the talk page of articles of other religions, such as the Buddhism page I mentioned above, and the talk page of individuals who may even object to a Shinto symbol, for example articles about Japanese people who are Buddhists or Christians, and who might strongly prefer not to be associated with a Shinto symbol. That makes Wikiproject Japan look ignorant (of the fact that the torii is a religious symbol) and culturally insensitive (that Wikiproject Japan does not respect the religious beliefs of Japanese people). As for Wikipedia policies and guidelines, an obvious one would be that plastering a religious symbol onto every single article about Japan is a violation of Wikipedia's neutrality policy. I therefore register this objection to the image and suggest it be replaced with a neutral symbol with no religious significance. I apologize for any unclearness in what I have said and hope the nature of my objection is now sufficiently clear. JoshuSasori (talk) 13:43, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, your position is much clearer. I am inclined to sympathize somewhat if individuals feel they're being unfairly associated with a religion they do not adhere to. However, I would submit that the torii has moved beyond religious symbolism, and is an internationally recognized unique symbol of Japan. Boneyard90 (talk) 14:06, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Boneyard. Most people look at the Miyajima torii gate and see something cultural rather than religious. John Smith's (talk) 22:07, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Most non-Japanese people might see that, but many Japanese people won't. This is what I mean by "cultural insensitivity". JoshuSasori (talk) 00:18, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree with John Smith and Boneyard90. Probably for many/most possible alternatives you could find wikipedia pages, where a particular image is inappropriate. Also I don't think it is a big deal as the image only appears on the talk page. bamse (talk) 23:08, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

There are many other images which could be equally charged, for example a picture of Mount Fuji or a Japanese national flag both have meanings which might be inappropriate. Choosing an appropriate image is not easy. I would suggest an outline map of Japan, or a traditional Japanese object such as a paper fan. You are right that the torii image only appears on the talk page, and most people who are not editors will not notice it. Someone would have objected very much sooner if it a picture of a torii appeared on the Wikipedia page about Daisaku Ikeda. Even if most readers don't see the picture, is it OK to offend editors, or to use images contrary to their beliefs, any more than readers? JoshuSasori (talk) 00:18, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Using Wikipedia to evangelise for pagan religions is contrary to Neutral Point of View. Viva Frank Zappata (talk) 18:15, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't see how the use of the image could be considered evangelizing for the religion, but I think a religious image is an inappropriate symbol for all articles about Japan. The image itself might be good for a Japan portal or a general article about Japan, but not to put onto each article carelessly. JoshuSasori (talk) 00:18, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

To User:V.F. Zappa: I think you need to look up the definition of "evangelize". Boneyard90 (talk) 00:21, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Are you saying that it's fine to evangelize non-pagan religions??? 70.24.251.71 (talk) 04:39, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

• Disagree. Seriously? This can't possibly be a legitimate argument. There's no advocacy of 'pagan religions', and even if there is religious significance to the torii, there's nothing here to take offense at. This is all a bunch of FUD or something, and part of me thinks we're just being trolled. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 04:37, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

This kind of response is exactly what I mean by "culturally insensitive". If you are a member of Wikiproject Japan, doesn't that imply you have some specialized knowledge about Japan? If so you should already know that the image of a torii as a symbol of Japan is unacceptable to many Japanese people. JoshuSasori (talk) 04:57, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

そうなんだ？ 例えば… — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 05:14, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

• It's an iconic image, and something which people frequently associate with Japan. Should we also remove the crescent and star image that WikiProject Turkey uses, because that's a religious symbol of sorts? I'm a strong agnostic, and I have no problem at all with that image because it's immediately recognizable as distinctly Japanese. Nothing you do will prevent a certain number of people from being offended, and frankly people who would interpret this as proselytizing are the kinds of people Wikipedia doesn't need. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:38, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

My objection to this image is not based on the reaction of non-Japanese people to it. My objection to the image is based on the reaction of Japanese people to it. The construction in the image has a religious meaning which possibly is not clear to non-Japanese, who see it as merely a quaint or exotic oddity, possibly related to a superstition or something. What worries me about Wikiproject Japan is that several people in this discussion keep defending it on the grounds that non-Japanese people will not know about the religious significance. This makes me quail about the good judgement and the knowledge of the members of Wikiproject Japan, people who surely are claiming to have more than average knowledge about Japanese culture. I was very shocked to see this image on a talk page when it was first added to a page I had created. It is extremely surprising to me that nobody here on Wikiproject Japan seems to know better than to use this image. JoshuSasori (talk) 04:57, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

It may surprise you to know that my specialty within Japanese history is studying the Ainu people, which has left me with no love for either Shinto or Japanese Buddhism. But you'll be hard-pressed to find something that isn't somehow tied into either religion that's also recognizable to people with even a passing knowledge of it (i.e. we could use a picture of inau, but that won't register with the vast majority of people). Do you have any idea what Koreans reactions are to a Japanese flag? This is what I mean; we're not going to find anything that doesn't offend someone. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 05:39, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

My suggestion for a neutral image is an outline map of Japan or a picture of a traditional handicraft (excluding weapons such as swords). JoshuSasori (talk) 05:47, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Inau are a traditional handicraft with a far longer history in Japan than anything else, but again they're hardly recognizable to most; I'd bet the vast majority of the people here hadn't heard of them. Almost every other symbol in Japanese culture is either Chinese-derived, Shinto, or Buddhist related, or some combination thereof. A map seems a little... drab, for reasons elucidated by others. My feeling is not broke, don't fix. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:03, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Neither cherry blossoms nor Mount Fuji are Chinese- or religion-derived---they derive from the geography. While different religions may have bestowed their own symbolism on them, neither could be said to "belong" to any religion or any other group of Japanese society. They are also widely recognized, and hardly "drab". CüRlyTüRkey^Talk_Contribs 04:59, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm aware that Mount Fuji is a volcano and cherry blossoms are a feat of plant biology; Mount Sinai is a small hill in Egypt too, but most people would associate it with Abrahamic religions. I don't have any personal issue with it, but if objections to a torii are that it's proselytizing then I'd think you'd want something without any religious connotations. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 14:47, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

The only reason Sinai is notable is because of its religious associations. The fact that certain religious sects show Fuji a certain amount of respect is not even remotely a similar thing. Its primary associations are overwhelmingly non-religious. CüRlyTüRkey^Talk_Contribs 21:31, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

OK, if you insist, Ayers Rock is another such example, although Aboriginal religious practices are less known to us Westerners. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:56, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Insist on what?!? Did you even bother to read what I wrote? Mount Fuji's primary associations are overwhelmingly non-religious. Are you suggesting the Japanese conquered Fuji from the Ainu or something? Please, try keeping on topic. Please try to find some totally non-hairsplitting, non-imaginary way to show that Mount Fuji is not appropriate as a symbol of Japan. CüRlyTüRkey^Talk_Contribs 02:16, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

• More disagreeing. Buddhism has problem had more friendly relations and intermixing with other religions as any on Earth, and Shintoism is no exception. Furthermore this particular torii is a World Heritage Site, one of the most popular Japanese tourist destinations, and one of the Three Views of Japan. Religion is an important part of Japanese culture and any well known cultural landmark or symbol of Japan will carry with it religious significance(as you have stated for example Mount Fugi), but I would argue that it would be culturally insensitive to see it as your job to separate the linkages between Buddhism and Shintoism that have existed for centuries.AerobicFox (talk) 04:52, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I hardly doubt Buddhists in Japan who have intermixed with Shintoism heavily for the past centuries would take offense to this. I quail at your lack of knowledge. There are many Japanese buddhists who would very strongly object to this image as a national symbol for Japan. JoshuSasori (talk)

No, you are imposing a Western perspective on this. Only a few(very conservative) Buddhists would take offense to this, that would be the equivalent of an American taking offense to a Christmas Tree being set up in a downtown city plaza.AerobicFox (talk) 00:15, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

• Looking into WikiProjects for countries in Category:Regional WikiProjects, they generally use national flags of respective countries as an icon for their banners. WikiProject Turkey is one of them; the design of the {{WikiProject Turkey}} icon is based on the flag of Turkey. I suggest WikiProject Japan do the same and use the flag of Japan as an icon. --Kusunose 05:06, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
• Agree. This is something that has always bugged me since I first discovered WikiProject Japan many years back. I would agree with JoshuSasori's comments that it shows cultural and religious insensitivity. I personally would have liked to see an iconic image of Mount Fuji with cherry blossom in the foreground, but if Mt Fuji also has religious overtones, a simple flag icon - possibly combined with an outline map of Japan would seem to be a better solution. --DAJF (talk) 05:28, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Some Nichiren Buddhists turn to Mount Fuji to pray, so they carry little compasses with them on trips so they can work out which direction to point in. JoshuSasori (talk) 05:48, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

The fact that some Nichiren Buddhists turn to Mt Fuji to pray does not make it their own religious property. The Torii is a man-made structure built for religious purposes. Does the fact that Fuji has religious significance to a particular sect mean that Shizuoka Prefecture is extolling the virtues of Nichiren when they incorporate it into their flag? Do you think the average Japanese person would take kindly to the Nichiren sect claiming Fuji for their own? CüRlyTüRkey^Talk_Contribs 10:56, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure you read all of the discussion above. JoshuSasori (talk) 11:26, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I did, actually. I agreed that the torii is possibly inappropriate, but found it ridiculous that Fuji could seriously be found objectionable. CüRlyTüRkey^Talk_Contribs 21:40, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

We could use a silhouette of the Japanese archipelago, like how WP:KOREA uses a picture of the Korean peninsula. 70.24.251.71 (talk) 06:00, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

If the torii image is deemed unsuitable for the talk box, I hope that we can find something more interesting (less neutral) than a map or a flag. After all the image should advertise/raise interest in the wikiproject so something typical Japanese would be good. Any country has a map and a flag... bamse (talk) 06:50, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

• Personally, I have no problems with changing the icon, if that's the way consensus goes, but the posting editor would have gained my support if the reasons were more solid. User:JS has several times made comments that the "torii as a symbol of Japan is unacceptable to many Japanese people", and disparages project members for not perceiving this. On this basis, I also have to wonder if we're being trolled. But on the assumption of good faith, I will say that I've known a few Japanese people, and I can't ever remember a single one saying anything negative about a torii, even among those who, for one reason or another, were somehow dissatisfied with the country &/or its history. I think other editors express a similar perception. So, contrary to the his lament over project members' "insensitivity", to think that any sizable portion of the Japanese population finds the torii as an "unacceptable" negative symbol betrays a very mild familiarity with the actual culture, or perhaps with undue weight placed on the opinions of a very restricted number of cultural informants. Boneyard90 (talk) 07:42, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

The objection I have to the torii symbol is not its use on a content page, but that it is currently being attached to every article about Japan on Wikipedia, including about Japanese people who do not believe in Shinto or are actively against Shinto. It's an astonishing choice of symbol to use to put on every single article about Japan, and an equally astonishing claim that pointing out this is "trolling". JoshuSasori (talk) 11:26, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Oppose change; "troll" is my guess too; culturally distinctive; aesthetic; raises interest per Bamse; and as for the alternatives proposed - flag see Nationalism, archipelago - see Senkaku or Sakhalin, other work of art - see Walter Benjamin "there is no document of civilization which is not at the same time a document of barbarism" (Wikiquote:Walter Benjamin), and presumably we can't be having none of those. Hailing from Blighty myself, I find Wikiproject:England's use of the flag used to drum up xenophobia most distressing... Sources for unacceptability would be good too, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 09:06, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Also, see Polysemy; how about this image Before and after: Japan rebuilds after tsunami, where presumably it is used for distinctiveness, timelessness, resilience, etc; people's reactions to "Japan" (how about changing the name of this wikiproject while we are about it, isn't it some European Age of Discovery/Colonialism thing?) may be complex, so if there are eg State Shinto issues somewhere in the background there is also, per location, Hiroshima; plus a torii stands as a ceremonial entrance [6], presumably good for a Wikiproject? Could switch for something entirely devoid of any complex overtones such as the cherry blossom, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 09:41, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

The problem isn't the torii image, it is that the torii image is being used on every single page about Japan, including on the talk pages of articles about people who very definitely do not believe in the Shinto religion. I am astonished that so many people here do not realise how inappropriate this is. JoshuSasori (talk) 11:26, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

de minimis non curat lex - as above, this is a talk page issue so for a possible handful of unverified instances it may not be such a big deal; and there's always going to be someone who doesn't like something, so no image will be universally agreeable; think the "Japan" with which this wikiproject is concerned is greater than the sectarianism of the few; tantum religio potuit suadere malorum, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 11:43, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

This is cultural insensitivity. Putting a picture of a torii on the talk page of an article about someone like Daisaku Ikeda is like putting a picture of the pope on the talk page of the Wikipedia article about Ian Paisley. JoshuSasori (talk) 11:58, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Rituals and Power argues that your "belief" may be a Judaeo-Christian concept not always as central to ritual practice as social integration/collusion etc; do you think the millions of visitors to Meiji Jingū for hatsumōde are about to become martyrs? Is your point that this guy has little to do with Japan and its Jingū-ji and should be released from the fold? Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 12:09, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

• If cherry blossoms are proposed as the new project emblem, I think I'll object. They were the symbol of the kamikaze units of World War II. They were used in poetry, propaganda, and painted on the side of planes and piloted bombs. Obviously an insensitive symbol of the martial past. Can't use a katana or a Japanese castle for the same reasons. Mount Fuji is out. I think that leaves us with Hello Kitty as the icon of the WP:Japan banner. Boneyard90 (talk) 12:37, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I'll take accusations of trolling from you with a grain of salt from now on. JoshuSasori (talk) 12:45, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Hello Kitty, perfect...Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 12:54, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

And these are the two people who accused me of trolling. JoshuSasori (talk) 12:58, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Not true. I explicitly assumed good faith. I just had to take a step back for some perspective.Boneyard90 (talk) 13:04, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

You were the first to bring up "trolling", but disingenuously worded it in such a way that you could easily disown your own statements. Worse, it has given Maculosae tegmine lyncis the idea that it's fine to troll this discussion.

Your objection to cherry blossoms is ridiculous. "Obviously an insensitive symbol of a martial past"---except it's obviously not. A torii is, was and will always be a symbol of Shintoism. Whether Japanese people find it objectionable as a symbol of Japan is a separate issue. CüRlyTüRkey^Talk_Contribs 21:53, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. I think it was User:HelloAnnyong that first brought up "trolling" (sorry to finger you, H.A.Y.). And I don't think I'm trolling anyway, because (if my understanding of "trolling" is correct), I said nothing insulting, I am not trying to provoke a negative response from J.S., and my position, at each stage of the discussion, has been clear. No hiding. At worst, a little sarcasm. The place needed some levity. But, if you think what I did was trolling, and other editors concur, then I'll try to watch myself in the future.

As for Maculosa: No. You can't blame me for what another editor writes. I take no responsibility for that. If you have a problem with Mac's posts, take it up with Mac.Boneyard90 (talk) 22:34, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

On the cherry blossoms. I think I was trying to satirize Joshu's objection, along with the growing number of restrictions on what is considered acceptable in his book.Boneyard90 (talk) 22:38, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I didn't say you were trolling. I said Maculosa was, and I think he was encouraged when the word "trolling" came up (sorry that I was wrong about you being the one to bring it up). There are editors out there who think it's okay to troll an editor who has been accused of trolling, and I think that's exactly what Maculosa was doing.

I'm also aware that what you were doing with cherry blossoms was a reductio ad absurdum. Sometimes such an argument is useful, but in this case I think it was far too far off the mark. A torii is a religious symbol, period. It was, is and always will be a symbol of Shinto first and foremost. Cherry blossoms obviously are not, though they have ben appopriated as symbols for a wide variety of things, religious and non-religious, partisan and non-partisan, in war and in peace, etc etc etc. What binds all these symbols, associations and meanings together is that they are all, in their diversity, Japanese. Which makes cherry blossoms an excellent symbol of Japan. A better one than the torii, even if the consensus finds the torii non-objectionable. CüRlyTüRkey^Talk_Contribs 01:06, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I think we understand each other. But just to get this out in the open, I probably won't support a cherry blossom; but not because it's a symbol of the kamikaze. Maybe a chrysanthemum. I still don't see the problem with any Shinto symbol, as I have never heard of any Japanese strenuously objecting to Shinto. And I've befriended Buddhist priests. Now let's see which way this discussion goes.Boneyard90 (talk) 01:36, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Why would you object to the cherry blossom, then? And what would make the chrysanthemum a better symbol? There's nothing specifically Japanese about the chrysanthemum. It's used symbolically in China and Korea, and is symbolic of death in parts of Europe.

Personally, I'd root for Fuji, though. I can't imagine a serious objection to that. It's certainly better recognized than any torii or species of flower. Also, I get to see it on my way to work every day. CüRlyTüRkey^Talk_Contribs 03:09, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm no fan of the image, which looks like something printed on the tourist tat sold at Narita airport. I'd happily see it changed (though not, please, to anything more kawaii). However, you're going to have to convince others here, not just me. You say: you should already know that the image of a torii as a symbol of Japan is unacceptable to many Japanese people. Perhaps I should, but I didn't. My resident (non-Shintō) Japanese informant is unfazed by it. My objection to the image is based on the reaction of Japanese people to it. The construction in the image has a religious meaning [...]. Well yes it does, but again, which Japanese people are they, and do they amount to a significant percentage of the population? Got any sources for, or at least suggesting, the impalatability of torii? -- Hoary (talk) 13:53, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

If you know that a torii is a religious symbol, and you know that many people in Japan believe in a different religion, then you should already know that the image of a torii as a symbol of Japan is unacceptable to many Japanese people. JoshuSasori (talk) 14:32, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps I should, but I don't. So indulge me -- particularly if you hope to persuade others. However ignorantly/wrongly, I don't think of a torii as being more obviously religious than, say, London's St. Paul's Cathedral, the outline of which is often used to symbolize London. I hadn't heard that this use of the cathedral offended a significant percentage of Londoners, a very large percentage of whom are of course not Christian, let alone members of that particular variety of Christianity. Are Japanese views of torii so different? If so, let's have evidence. ¶ Alternatively, think of an alternative to torii that would be more attractive, so people would be likely to want to change. (Sushi? Sushi-shaped USB memory doodad?) -- Hoary (talk) 15:28, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Have you read what I've already said though? You seem to be asking me to repeat myself. JoshuSasori (talk) 03:26, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

日

本

Well... we could just put it in as the characters for Japan, instead of a map, or a flag, or an image.

70.24.251.71 (talk) 14:29, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Plip! See Omphaloskepsis. Articles beckon, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 15:32, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

You should try thinking about my statement, since you can't seem to proffer a proper response. 70.24.251.71 (talk) 04:46, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

It should be borne in mind this is English Wikipedia. As such we must address English perceptions and attitudes. This religious symbol does not represent the common English perception of Japan. Also, by evangelising for one religious sect in a rather under-handed manner, it is offensive to the English attitude of Fair Play, or Neutral Point of View as Wikipedia would have it. Viva Frank Zappata (talk) 18:47, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Whack, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 19:26, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I concur with Hoary's position.Boneyard90 (talk) 20:17, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Post-trout

• This is in many ways just a problem inherent in trying to represent that conflicted entity called the "nation". Most nations are not organically unified, so national symbols often less represent a nation than impose a unity, usually from the perspective of only one sector of the nation. Recall that the Japanese flag is still a hotly contested symbol in Japan, and is still subject to court cases. While I don't think JoshuSasori can ever come up with evidence that most Japanese would object to the torii symbol (in my 20 years on and off in Japan, I find most Japanese rather detached about both religion and such national symbols), I can sympathize with the desire to avoid the sometimes nasty politics of national symbols. You can look at any of the Japanese government's official websites for tourism or information and find many religious symbols and events being used to represent Japan (matsuri, Fuji-san, torii, otera, etc.), but while I would hesitate to see that as supporting a religion, it is definitely a cultural politics, one that is enforcing a vision of Japan both for foreign consumption (self-orientalization) and for domestic definition (creating a "unity" that often elides the histories of those who don't fit that vision, from Ainu to Okinawans to resident Koreans). I would like to see a symbol used here that avoids all that, but am at loss to think of one that would work. I am open to suggestions. Michitaro (talk) 22:43, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't think JoshuSasori can ever come up with evidence that most Japanese would object to the torii symbol - I don't remember claiming that a majority of Japanese object to the torii symbol. But finding examples is fairly easy. I don't want to seem like I am picking on one individual but I have mentioned Daisaku Ikeda more than once above, a religious leader of a Nichiren Buddhist group who has a talk page with a symbol of a torii on it. Soka Gakkai claims 8.25 million households are in their organization, and I am sure that they would object to a torii being used on articles about their organization or members. I find most Japanese rather detached about both religion and such national symbols - Japanese people often don't express their emotions even when they are offended or even extremely angry. My guess is that the average Japanese person who sees the torii symbol being used inappropriately merely dismisses Wikiproject Japan as being composed of ignorant foreigners. JoshuSasori (talk) 03:26, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

"Japanese people often don't express their emotions even when they are offended or even extremely angry."---Kee-rist!!! Could you please inform my wife and children? I could use a little peace and quiet! Relatively, Japanese are more emotionally reserved than North Americans. Relatively is the key word. The idea that Japanese don't often express their emotions is 100% pure horse manure.

The idea that Japanese don't often express their emotions is 100% pure horse manure. - an interesting example of how changing the order of two English words, "often don't" into "don't often" makes it have a different meaning. In any country in the world, people sometimes don't express their emotions. This tendency to stoicism seems to me to be stronger in Japan than in European and North American countries. JoshuSasori (talk) 05:13, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Again, relatively being the key word. The Japanese are far from being a nation of "stoic", unemotional robots. If you talk to enough Japanese people directly, you'll find they are generally not being "stoic" by not talking about religion. Far more often than not, they honestly just don't care. When asked about my own religion, a number of Japanese have been relieved when I told them I was agnostic---one response was, "Oh! Just like Japanese people! Ha ha ha!", obviously relieved that I wasn't going to evangelize to them. CüRlyTüRkey^Talk_Contribs 07:56, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I completely agree with Curly Turkey here. The idea that Japanese people don't express themselves or they have some mystical amount of stoic discipline is a pretty worn out stereotype.Boneyard90 (talk) 08:15, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Sōka Gakkai are a fringe element, and not all of the 8 million members are in Japan (I personally know members from British Columbia, California and Taiwan). They are hardly representative of Japan. If we are going to take every fringe group into account, then seriously there will be no end to the hairsplitting. Mount Fuji would be out, because it's not representative of the geography of Kumamoto. A map or silhouette of Japan would be out because of boundary disputes. a graphic of 日本 would be out, becaue it wouldn't represent the Ainu or Rykyuan languages.

I've lived in Japan for 14 years, and I can't imagine very many Japanese actually objecting to the use of the torii as a symbol of Japan on Wikipedia. Personally, I think the cherry blossom or Mount Fuji would be better (being neutral and known worldwide), but not for the imaginary reasons you've come up with. CüRlyTüRkey^Talk_Contribs 04:53, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

There is always a problem in trying to argue what a "people" would think. I only speak from my experience, given my work, with mostly intellectuals in Japan. Most would echo my arguments about the conflicted nature of national symbols -- and would also probably not like to be grouped into stereotypical claims about "Japanese" not wanting to show their emotions. (The long history of violent political protest in Japan shows that stereotype is not quite accurate.) The fact that Japanese government agencies and other official bureaus regularly use religious symbols such as torii, temples, and matsuri to represent Japan also means that the use of it here would probably seem to my Japanese friends less like ignorance by foreigners than simply falling into the same patterns of discourse that both Japan and foreigners have used to typify Japan. In general, I am sympathetic to JoshuSasori's argument about the torii, but I again want to know what could be proposed as an unproblematic alternative. Others have noted problems with other likely alternatives. Michitaro (talk) 05:02, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I am slightly disappointed to find myself repeating what I have said above, but the problem with this image is not that it typifies Japan or that it is a typical Japanese image. The specific problem with the image is that it is being universally applied to each and every page about Japan, including to the talk page of people who would dislike it as a symbol. As for neutral suggestions, I have already made three: an outline map of Japan, a paper fan, or another traditional handicraft item, such as a temari, a kimono, a bamboo tea whisk, etc. JoshuSasori (talk) 05:13, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Point taken, but you have been making the other argument as well, so the discussion is getting convoluted on all sides. But when the issue comes to what image can be used on all pages, you run into the same problem of universal representability. Use a map on the Okinawan or Ainu page and some could take offense given the problematic history there. Kimono on an Ainu or Okinawan page could also be seen as insensitive given their different ethnic clothing. Other figures like a temari or tea whisk may fail the other aspect of representability: the ability to communicate to many viewers (some may find them too obscure). A paper fan might be better, but I would have to see a sample. Michitaro (talk) 05:27, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

The specific problem with the image is that it is being universally applied to each and every page about Japan

Oh boy, I'm anticipating a reemergence of the rotating images idea, or different banners with different images for different pages.AerobicFox (talk) 14:57, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

We shouldn't have to worry about that. I mean, that's why each of the task forces has its own little icon, right? It may belong to the overall entity that is Nihon, but it falls more specifically within the Sport Task Force (kendo), Military History (samurai armor), Religion , etc.... Boneyard90 (talk) 15:56, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

End to the silliness

"They[torii] are found not only at shrines but at Buddhist temples as well, for example in the famous stone torii of the temple Shitennōji (in Osaka); as signified by their use as a map symbol, however, they are generally considered to signify the presence of a Shinto shrine."[7]

I can find more reliable sources if I must, but there are many Buddhist temples which have toriis at their entrances as well as many Buddhist temples which house a shrine to local Shinto spirits. Unless any evidence is provided that supports so-called Japanese Buddhist offense at the use of a torii to represent Japan then we should just end this debate.AerobicFox (talk) 00:13, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree. If someone came up with some kind of published opinion poll about Japanese attitudes toward torii, I'd be a little more inclined to support a change. But, some of the first replies to the original objection asked for a reliable source, and none has been forthcoming.Boneyard90 (talk) 01:43, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I doubt whether you can find an opinion poll which will tell you that Japanese people would find a picture of an atom bomb explosion over Hiroshima or Nagasaki offensive as a symbol of Japan. So why don't we replace the current Wikiproject Japan torii picture with an atom bomb picture? Then, if anyone points out it's offensive, and asks us to replace it, we'll be able to flummox them by simply insisting that the person who makes the claim that Japanese people find it objectionable must provide sources to an opinion poll. JoshuSasori (talk) 05:22, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

On the contrary, I'm sure you can find all manner of polls regarding attitudes toward every aspect of the atomic bombings, though probably mostly published in Japanese. Even without polls, I'm sure there are other reliable sources that reflect the general feeling of people on a significant subject such as the a-bombing. Do you have any source that refers to the general opinion of a significant portion of the population in regard to the torii?Boneyard90 (talk) 08:27, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

It should be noted that the existence of torii at Buddhist temples (and Buddhist shrines in Shinto shrines) is a leftover of pre-Meiji religiosity, which made less clear distinctions between the religions. The separation was a specific Meiji state policy called Shinbutsu bunri, which was a central aspect in the construction of State Shinto, and is one piece of evidence for how contemporary Shinto is a product of such modern state intervention. The existence of torii at Buddhist temples can perhaps serve as evidence against claims that Buddhist believers would object to Shinto symbols, but it also can be proof of how torii have a convoluted history involving quite disturbing modern events. Michitaro (talk) 02:23, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Puffer prod

• 

  

  Meanwhile, here's a blowfish (or similar). Being round and colorful, perhaps it's kawaii, which will appeal to youngsters. It doesn't look like something on tourist tat sold at Narita airport. Admittedly, it's not specifically Japanese, but I think it's intriguing all the same. Perhaps it will prod JoshuSasori to come up with something better -- a jollier idea than an outline map of Japan.
  Come on, there's been no debate, just a discussion (sometimes irritating, yes). Aside from a single brand new (or not) contributor, nobody has been silly. Fish have been slapped around rather too quickly. It's imaginable that Japanese atheists are offended by symbolic use of torii (though I doubt this). It's more easily imaginable that this or that stripe of Japanese Christian is offended (though I'd wonder whether such people amount to a non-negligible percentage of the population). So let's hear what evidence JoshuSasori can bring, or his or others' suggestions for a more appealing alternative. -- Hoary (talk) 01:52, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

• I'm still trying to figure out what all the fish business is about. In the meantime, I move we start adding sub-section headings every so often, for ease of page navigation. I've inserted the first one.Boneyard90 (talk) 02:00, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

The fish is used to slap someone into "getting the point". All it means is that Maculosae is so sure of his/her "argument" that he/she can't imagine why people would bother to debate. Normally, it's used to wake up someone who is being absurd. Maculosae, however, is using it only to be arrogant and disruptive. CüRlyTüRkey^Talk_Contribs 03:13, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

And other ideas

Tengu-chan, loved by all

JoshuSasori suggests "an outline map of Japan, a paper fan, or another traditional handicraft item, such as a temari, a kimono, a bamboo tea whisk, etc". Among these, I like the outline map of Japan, for its educational value. (When young, I always mixed up the outlines of Japan and New Zealand.) But any map of Japan is likely to bring tantrums over Iturup etc. The other suggestions, though surely well intended, have subdued colours, are too complex to lend themselves to miniaturization, or (I fear) aren't of instant appeal. So allow me instead to recommend some representation of tengu. Specifically Japanese, Shintō (I suppose) but (surely) not tainted by nationalism, admired or even loved by so many, and sure to fascinate those who haven't yet made his acquaintance. -- Hoary (talk) 09:39, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Hoary, please explain why Uer:Viva Frank Zappata was blocked for Disruptive editing? I am not sure the reason for your block. The user never did disruptive editing by these four edits. If the user is a sockpuppet of someone, the reason should be described so.―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 12:09, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I've responded on your talk page. -- Hoary (talk) 13:14, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

An indefinite block for a handful of comments (that showed some relevant knowledge and were presumably a spoof of the basic premise) on a talk page seems heavy handed to me. Perhaps a warning or other temporary measures first? Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 16:48, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I was also surprised by how swiftly that decision was made. As VFZappa wasn't being obnoxiously insulting, but mildly disruptive though not much more than the AnonIP who keeps bringing up "evangelization", I thought it was standard practice to issue a warning or two, to give the contributor a chance to repent and play nice. But I guess the hand of justice is swift here in WP:Japan. Now where did I put my Ps and Qs? I need to watch them... Boneyard90 (talk) 18:16, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Please see this if interested. -- Hoary (talk) 00:53, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Ok, so you kind of gave him a way out? Or at least some way to appeal, do I understand that right? That's cool. Now, more importantly, you can give a beer to another editor?? Boneyard90 (talk) 01:10, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes. -- Hoary (talk) 03:10, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Kagohara, Saitama: hoax?

Is this a legitimate article or a hoax? There is no entry on the Japanese Wikipedia for 籠原市 and the coordinates given are for Kumagaya. Perhaps a locality of some sort around Kagohara Station? PC78 (talk) 22:32, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps we can assume good faith in the creation of this article: Kagohara is definitely a neighborhood within Kumagaya (there is a Kagohara Minami just south of Kagohara Station). But there is no Kagohara City 籠原市 as cited in the article. Unless there is significant reason to have an article on what is only a neighborhood, it should be deleted.

Looks just like one of the hundreds, maybe thousands of stubs I've assessed.Boneyard90 (talk) 01:11, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

For what it's worth, there's no Japanese Wiki equivalent. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 02:36, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Redirect to Kumagaya, Saitama then? PC78 (talk) 14:21, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

I couldn't see why anyone would object, except maybe the article's creator. Couldn't hurt to check with him/her and ask if he plans to expand it.

To HelloAnnYong: Maybe not in town articles (which surprises me; how can you find out?), but size? Check out Morodsuka Dam or Iwase Dam. There are many more one-sentence articles. Boneyard90 (talk) 14:52, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

I went over to the Japanese Wiki, searched, and found nothing: 籠原市, 籠原. In the second set of results, there's a listing for 籠原駅, a JR station there, but the text says that it's in Kumagaya. So to that end, I'd support the redirect. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 14:59, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Oh, gotcha, the Ja-language Wikipedia. I misread.Boneyard90 (talk) 16:46, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Redirected to Kumagaya. The article was created over two years ago by a user with no other contributions, so I don't see much point in trying to contact them. PC78 (talk) 17:32, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Task Force Categorization

Is there any way we can create a category listing sub-categories of articles divided by task force, like does for Importance? I understand how to create a category, but how do articles of Japanese Food & Drink Task Force, or Mythology, when tagged, get moved to the appropriate category? Boneyard90 (talk) 18:19, 10 March 2012 (UTC)