Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/December 2009

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Category question

The text at the top of Category:National Treasures of Japan ("Articles in this category are about individual objects that are national treasures, or about institutions that hold these treasures, or the people who created them.") does not seem to include Living National Treasures of Japan. Should the Category:Living National Treasures of Japan not be a member of Category:National Treasures of Japan or should the text be expanded? bamse (talk) 12:24, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

I think the text should be expanded to include them. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:13, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
I expanded the text to include Living National Treasures.bamse (talk) 09:48, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Translation request

There has been a lot of misinformation going around about exactly what kind of ARM CPUs are in the Nintendo DSi, the actual clock speed of it, etc. The chip marker, ARM Holdings, confirmed some information, but there still are some unknowns. The following link would help out. [1] « ₣M₣ » 14:59, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

There is an article on the "坪" (tsubo) at pyeong. Going by the decision at talk:Shaku, these multinational traditional units should sit at the most common one found in English literature, regardless of which language/country that pronounciation is based on. This article is currently mostly about Korean usage, usage in Japan would be nice to add.

76.66.194.23 (talk) 09:55, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but which one is most commonly used. I doubt any of the three ways of saying the character could be considered the most common in English. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 15:50, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Well, there is already an article, so I would suggest building on that, and then requesting a rename to whatever proves the most prominent usage. Should it prove to be pyeong, no rename would be necessary, should it prove to be tsubo, the edit history would still be there from the beginning, without the need for a history merge. 76.66.202.219 (talk) 07:06, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
I think the article should be moved to "Tsubo". The origin of tsubo was Japan, not Korea. See this. It says '"Pyeong" was introduced by the Japanese during the 1910-1945 colonial period and was widely used as the measurement unit of choice for home and land transactions...' in the 7th paragraph. Oda Mari (talk) 08:37, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
The origin doesn't matter (see Talk:Shaku, where someone tried to move it to the origin (ie. Chinese title)), just the most common form in English (also see Talk:Shaku, where "Shaku" is preferred over an English word for the same unit, since the English word is uncommon). If "tsubo" is more common in English than "pyeong", then a move is in order, if they are more or less equal usage, then it might fail a WP:RM, if "pyeong" is predominant, it should stay where it is. 76.66.202.219 (talk) 11:39, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
FYI, the article Chi (unit) was split off [2] from Shaku (unit of measurement) after the fierce dispute over the title name. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 12:34, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Akasaka Palace

Recently the Akasaka Palace was designated a national treasure. I'd like to add it to the respective list but don't know in which category it has been added: "residences", "miscellaneous structures" or something else. Does anybody know? bamse (talk) 12:00, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

I would say "residences" as it's used to house visiting dignitaries. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 15:34, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
(ec) According to this Bunkacho announcement, it is categorized as 住居/residence. Oda Mari (talk) 15:39, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Woohoo! I win. (^_-) ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 15:45, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Ha! Man! Oda Mari (talk) 15:51, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. I should have studied more carefully this document (added the same announcement to the Akasaaka Palace article a short while ago). This makes it the first national treasure structure in the 住居 category. Is it worth creating a new list article for it or could I put it into List of National Treasures of Japan (residences)? The other structures in the residences list are from around 1500-1600, so adding the 1900 Akasaka Palace is not ideal. Do you have a suggestion on how to translate 住居 (Akasaka Palace category) to distinguish it from 住宅 (List of National Treasures of Japan (residences)) which is presently translated as "residences"?bamse (talk) 16:05, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Glancing over the Important Cultural Properties that are in the 住居 category, it seems that they are all from around 1900 (plus minus 20 years or so. How about translating 住居 with "modern residences"?bamse (talk) 16:14, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
I think "modern residences" would be fine. They use 住居 for structures from Meiji onward and 住宅 for pre-Meiji structures. Oda Mari (talk) 09:13, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. I am still undecided whether to include it as a spearate section in the pre-Meiji List of National Treasures of Japan (residences) or to create List of National Treasures of Japan (modern residences) with just one entry. What do you think is better? bamse (talk) 09:49, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
I don't really see the need to create an all new list for this one entry. --TorsodogTalk 13:10, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Added it to the old list.bamse (talk) 21:59, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Help: Emi Suzuki

Hello, everyone,

I stumbled over Emi Suzuki's article, which features a lot of edits from an anon and lots of references from Japanese pages (and a lot of fangush). What struck me most was the claim that Suzuki made 30 million dollars (??) in ten months by modeling. Maybe someone able to read Japanese could tell me if the referenced websites are believable and not gossip magazines, or blogs? It's one of these links: [3], [4] or [5] Thanks! Best regards, --Plumcouch Talk2Me 21:28, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, fangush is the word.
At least one of the sources OK'd by another editor on the talk page looks like junk to me (I didn't bother to look at any of the others). -- Hoary (talk) 08:09, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

The article is not obviously improving.

My Inner Old Git pipes up: "Wouldn't it be easier if we left coverage of young models to the denizens of message forums, etc, and waited till the young lovelies were 30 before paying them any attention?" But I suppress my Inner Old Git before Dekkappai comes along to poke me in the eye with a burnt stick. -- Hoary (talk) 05:18, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Book-class

Since several Wikipedia-Books are Japan-related, could this project adopt the book-class? This would really help WikiProject Wikipedia-Books, as the WP Japan people can oversee books like Japan: Examples of Its History and Culture much better than we could as far as merging, deletion, content, and such are concerned. Eventually there probably will be a "Books for discussion" process, so that would be incorporated in the Article Alerts. I'm placing this here rather than on the template page since several taskforces would be concerned.

There's an article in this week Signpost if you aren't familiar with Wikipedia-Books and classes in general. Thanks. Headbomb {ταλκκοντριβς – WP Physics} 21:15, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Done! ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 02:23, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Cool beans. If you have any questions, just ask me. Headbomb {ταλκκοντριβς – WP Physics} 06:34, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Meiji's family

Nakayama Yoshiko states that the Meiji Emperor was the eldest of Kōmei's children, but Emperor Kōmei says that Meiji was Kōmei's second son. Anyone know which is correct? Emperor Meiji is silent on the subject but notes that all of Kōmei's other children died in infancy. Dekimasuよ! 04:31, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Meiji Emperor was the third child. The first son died on his birth with his mother. As the article Emperor Komei says, the Meiji Emperor was the only one to survive past the age of two. See [6], [7], and [8]. Oda Mari (talk) 06:01, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Teruaki Georges Sumioka

I've a hunch that Teruaki Georges Sumioka, ja:純丘曜彰 and de:Teruaki Georges Sumioka are ripe for a trilingual AfD. (Ah, the Japanese article has already had an AfD.) Also see the history of the en:WP article and the article's talk page. Perhaps I'm missing something; anyway, I suspect that, one way or another, the fate of the article would be improved by the attention of somebody other than wikignomes, SPAs, and myself. -- Hoary (talk) 00:33, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I prodded it as I can't see how this person meets WP:BIO. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 02:56, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
The article seems to be self-written by ja:純丘曜彰. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 04:21, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
I don't notice anything that would be incompatible with your inference, Phoenix7777, but I'm very wary of making such accusations until I have more facts. And even without a "COI" warning flag, the three articles (en, ja, de) look suspect to me. We'll see if the PROD template lasts. -- Hoary (talk) 05:49, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Sure. I removed above accusations. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 06:10, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
I inferred disagreement with the prod, and therefore deprodded it and sent it to AfD. -- Hoary (talk) 13:36, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Hattori Seiko PX Wako store chain

ja:和光 (商業施設) starts:

和光(わこう、英称: Wako Department Store)

Is this true?

That article's English-language equivalent [or not], Wako Department Store, starts:

Wako (株式会社和光, Kabushiki-gaisha Wakō) (officially Wako Co., Ltd., also known as Ginza Wako)

Should the article be about the rather famous building/operation in Ginza, or about the small retail chain of which that one building is, I think, by far the best known example?

If the former, I think the article should be retitled "Wako (department store)"; if the latter, "Wako (retailer)". But I'm not sure. -- Hoary (talk) 13:50, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi, Hoary! As you can guess, I called them. They say they sometimes use "department store" for the convenience of English speaking people, but Wako is not a department store/百貨店 but 専門店 in Japanese. In fact, they don't join in 日本百貨店協会. So I think "Wako (retailer)" would be more correct. Oda Mari (talk) 05:42, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Certainly I don't remember having ever heard it called 和光デパート in Japanese conversation or "Wako department store" in English conversation.
Incidentally, the naming and content of articles here on what are department stores are a mess, where these articles exist at all. (Though I'm a miser who tends to wait till clothes wear out and then buy the cheapest replacements that fit, I think the articles are needed even if the stores are shadows of their former selves: back in the days of retail price maintenance and before Uniqlo etc were ever heard of, the department stores had considerable cultural clout even for those people who never bought anything there. And they still host exhibitions, some of which are very good.) -- Hoary (talk) 06:50, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

It's now Wako (retailer). -- Hoary (talk) 00:45, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Please also see this CfD at Commons, and consider commenting there. -- Hoary (talk) 01:16, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

And don't hold your breath for anything to happen soon. Here's my previous contribution to "Commons": pointing out a pretty cut 'n' dried copyvio. Two months on, no change. Not that this seems to be in any way unusual there. Commons might benefit from three hundred or more additional administrators (or whatever they call them there). Sane readers welcome to apply. -- Hoary (talk) 01:29, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
If you email the Wikimedia Foundation, especially their attorney, Mike Godwin, I think the image would be deleted fairly quickly. I believe the law is fairly clear that a website has to remove copyright violations within a short amount of time of being notified. Cla68 (talk) 07:21, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Hmm . . . I posted this instead. -- Hoary (talk) 09:22, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
That [Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Refer2drawer.jpg did it]. -- Hoary (talk) 01:38, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Looking for a reference

I am currently expanding and cleaning the National Treasures of Japan article which I would like to bring up to WP:GA one day. The second paragraph in National_Treasures_of_Japan#Former_and_present_national_treasures was added a long time ago by Mochi but lacks a source. The same text is present in the corresponding Japanese, French and Spanish articles (all unsourced). The critical sentence is: "At that time [before 1950], 5,824 art works and 1,059 buildings were so designated [as National Treasures]." Another source (page 12 right column of this book) states that there were about 8000 properties designated which is off by 1000 to the sum of 5,824 and 1,059. Despite of looking very hard I did not find any source for these (5,824 and 1,059) numbers, so I am looking for help from the project. Does anybody have a reliable source for the number of National Treasures before the Law for the Protection of Cultural Properties (文化財保護法, bunkazai hogohō)? bamse (talk) 16:37, 8 December 2009 (UTC) PS: This article claims 8,282 national treasures by 1939.bamse (talk) 10:08, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I moved the unsourced statement to the article's talk page. bamse (talk) 11:19, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Kirinomitake

Hello, I'm preparing the article Chorioactis for FAC. It is a rare fungus that is found only in Texas and Japan. Its Japanese name is kirinomitake (キリノミタケ); I was wondering if someone could tell me what the English equivalent of that name is. Also, perhaps this article would be suitable for a WP:Japan tag? Sasata (talk) 04:26, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

It might mean something like "split mountain" (切りの御岳), but that's all I can think of. It's hard to tell with scientific names as they are always written in katakana. Maybe Oda Mari knows. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 04:38, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm gonna venture a guess that the take at the end is something like 茸 or 菌 since this thing is a fungus. But I really have no idea. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 04:54, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
I think it is 桐の実茸 seed of paulownia. The shape certainly looks like the split open seed of paulownia.[9] ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 05:41, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Yes, it's 桐の実茸. I talked with this man. He said it's 桐の実/paulownia fruit because of the shape of the unopened fungus fruit looks like the paulownia fruit/pod. Closed fungus fruit, half opened fungus fruit and slightly opened paulownia fruit. Oda Mari (talk) 10:02, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank-you all very kindly for the information, I have included it in the article. I will probably have some more questions in a couple days, as I anticipate the Japanese language websites I've sourced will be questioned at FAC for their reliability, and I like to be prepared beforehand. Sasata (talk) 16:24, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Piracy

While sorting out the "Wako Department Store" mess (see above), I found that Wakō redirected not to the disambiguation page Wako but instead to Wokou. I reredirected it to Wako and changed a lot of instances of "[[wakō]]" to "[[Wokou|wakō]]". Anyone wanting to write about 倭寇 should avoid the simple link "[[wakō]]". -- Hoary (talk) 01:43, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Japanese Hockey team articles

I've been working on increasing the quality of the articles related to the Asia League Ice Hockey. I've gotten one of the Korean teams to GA status, and just finished rewriting (more or less) the other Korean team. Next stop is the Chinese team. I know a smattering of Korean and the western media has written a bit about the Korean teams and a bit more about the Chinese team because of NHL involvement. I'm lost when it comes to Japanese. The league translates some stuff into English, but none of the Japanese teams translate their website like one of the Korean teams does. I can write a very dry statistical article based off the AL website, but I'm not sure how much extra good stuff I can add to it on my own. So if anyone is interested in helping me who can read Japanese well, please let me know. You can see the existing articles like High1 and Anyang Halla for examples. Most of the info is notable and interesting statistics from the seasons, but there are other things as well, like retired numbers, or operating costs, or other behind the scenes interesting info. Like exhibition games (high1 played one against north korea), participation in domestic championships (that might not be in English), interesting notes on future plans, training regiments, or other stuff, try to add it to the articles or let me know (with citations as the goal is to push these all to GA status). Thanks!--Crossmr (talk) 15:40, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Junko Sakurada

Ambox warning pn.svg

An article that you might be interested in, Junko Sakurada, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Junko Sakurada. Thank you. Northwestgnome (talk) 10:04, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Did the Agency for Cultural Affairs make a mistake?

I am a bit confused by the list of national treasures found on the website of the Agency for Cultural Affairs (see list (pdf) or list (xls)). Somehow the numbers seem wrong. For instance they list two sculptural national treasures in Tokyo but as far as I know, there is only this sculptural treasure in Tokyo. Also a couple of other numbers seem wrong. Did they just make a mistake, or do these lists show something else than the location of the national treasure (for instance location of the owner)???bamse (talk) 18:32, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

As you guessed correctly, the pdf list is based on location of the owner. The lists here and here are based on location of the treasure. As for the sculptures, the pdf list includes this one in the Tokyo column, instead of Nara where the sculpture actually is. Because the owner is the country which means Tokyo. Oda Mari (talk) 05:35, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Thank you. I knew they were right. Could have mentioned somewhere that it's the owner's location (or did I miss the note?). bamse (talk) 08:54, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
I think that is not mentioned. I called them and they gave me the answer above. Oda Mari (talk) 10:19, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

A name

How do I transcribe 瀬津勲, owner of 絹本著色桃鳩図 (File:Momohatozu Huizong.JPG). Is it "Setsu Isao"? bamse (talk) 16:07, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

I think so. But it should be "Isao Setsu" per MoS ja. Oda Mari (talk) 09:52, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks.bamse (talk) 12:01, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Help, Japanapedia

I was just looking for a bit of help, I am currently trying to search chart archives in Japan to find chart statistics for singles and albums by American band Interpol for their discography. The article is a potential DYK so I am doing my best to improve it.

Does anyone know where to look for this? I know it might have something to do with http://ranking.oricon.co.jp/ , but i have no idea how to work that website. Thanks in advance! --SteelersFanUK06 ReplyOnMine! 01:10, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

This link may help you. It looks like they haven't ever been ranked in the Oricon charts. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:03, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Two songs among four are ranked.88th, 242nd ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 05:49, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
That's what I get for being tired when I read those pages. I was looking only at the bottom and didn't see that. It looks like they were only ranked once each. Not very high, either. Time for sleep... ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 06:22, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Have a good night's sleep. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 08:55, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Wow, 242, how far does this chart go? --SteelersFanUK06 ReplyOnMine! 06:05, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Rfc on division of Category:National Treasures of Japan

See Category talk:National Treasures of Japan. bamse (talk) 12:55, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Rape during the occupation of Japan

Interested editors may wish to comment on this article's content and sourcing. Nick-D (talk) 18:38, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Shinbun or shimbun

I just moved Mainichi Shimbun to Mainichi Shinbun. However, and while I was consolidating the article, I noticed the interwikis also use Shimbun (as well as a few articles that use it around the English Wikipedia). 新聞 is pretty clear personally, and don't know why it would be romanized as shimbun (other than a Spanish grammar rule where -nb- does not exist, as it must always be -mb-). For the time being (and because I am really inactive here, was just adding a reference to an article and noticed Mainichi redirected to Mainichi Shimbun) I will leave the article as is, leaving people more knowledgeable (and active!) to either roll back my move, or fix the articles. Cheers! -- ReyBrujo (talk) 04:57, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Please revert your move. Because Mainichi uses "Shimbun" as their English name. See the right bottom of the page . And see this too. Thank you. Oda Mari (talk) 05:14, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
I reverted the move as the official English name is Shimbun. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:25, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks people, I was going to rollback it before asking, but since I had deleted the history, anyone could have rolled back and thus decided to keep it that way. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 02:22, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Since you seem interested: don't know why it would be romanized as shimbun (other than a Spanish grammar rule where -nb- does not exist, as it must always be -mb-). Same in Japanese. Many L1 Japanese speakers are unaware of this, and many L1 English learners of Japanese are incredulous at this unawareness of it. But then try asking L1 English speakers about the English prefix "in-". If they're moderately bright, they'll soon agree (or even realize for themselves) that, depending on what follows it, it can become "im-" ("imprecise") or "ir-" ("irreplaceable"). But they won't see any difference between the prefixes of "inescapable" and "inconceivable" until you laboriously point out that the latter is the sound in "singing" and not that in "sinnin'" (and they may even resist this suggestion). -- Hoary (talk) 01:35, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

In the original Hepburn romanization n turns into m when it comes before b, m, or p. It is still used in many names such as this. --Apoc2400 (talk) 20:40, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Battle Royale dissertation

For those of you located in Japan and/or who have a good command of the Japanese language, the article Battle Royale would benefit from content from the following:

  • Battle Royale: Kyokugenshinri Kaisekisho (バトル・ロワイヤル 極限心理解析書)

It is a dissertation about the themes of the book. It could go in a reception section. At some point I will try to add more information from English language books about the series WhisperToMe (talk) 22:20, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

If I may judge by its dreadful cover design -- always unfair, of course, but anyway the cover is conveniently accessible thanks to the (inappropriate) link to the book at a specific retailer -- "dissertation" aggrandizes it. It's a would-be popular book, complete with double exclamation mark on its cover. (I do realize that crass publishers can and sometimes do inflict dreadful cover designs on good books.) -- Hoary (talk) 03:43, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Unincorporated district articles

I've noticed quite a few articles for very small, not obviously notable "districts" or neighborhoods: Nishishinbashi, Minato, Tokyo, Higashikonyachō, Tokyo, and Nishifukudachō, Tokyo, for example. Although they are specific and well-defined subdivisions of wards, none of them really lend themselves to their own articles. Instead, they would be better served as sections on articles for their respective wards, nearby railway stations, or more notable neighborhoods with more nebulous boundaries (e.g. Jinbōchō, Tokyo). Most of them seem to have been created by User:Occhanikov; I'm sure he means well, but it would be nice if he could explain his rationale before anyone begins merging all of these articles. That the Japanese Wikipedia has separate articles for each is not sufficient, IMO. armagebedar (talk) 07:43, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Translation help

I see "未知数な部分も多い" everywhere, but I can't decipher what it means. The specific line I am trying to translate is "その強さは未知数な部分も多い", and the best I can figure out is "That strength is unlimited and great", but the "部分" makes no sense.71.54.121.220 (talk) 22:37, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Really? I've got problems deciphering "未知数"... The rest seems pretty straight-forward to me: "There are a lot of parts of this strength that are 未知数" Of course, I could just be missing something blindingly obvious. What's the source of the quote? TomorrowTime (talk) 00:34, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
I think that's something like "unknown number" or "not known amount". — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 00:56, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
http://digimon.net/cat-digimon-dictionary/02-ka/gaioumon/index.html 71.54.121.220 (talk) 01:25, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Could it possibly imply "unmeasured"?71.54.121.220 (talk) 01:49, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
HelloAnnyong is correct in the meaning of 未知数. Perhaps something like, "The strength is that there are many unknowns" would work. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 04:42, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
"There are many things unknown about his/her/its strength". 未知数 is a very common word. In mathematics it means "unknown quantity" and it typically represented by a variable; it contrasts with a known quantity (既知数). More generally, as in this case, it refers to something that is not known or can not be presumed; hence "unknown". 124.214.131.55 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 04:32, 23 December 2009 (UTC).
"Still unknown" might be a general translation for 未知数. See en-ja dictionary pages here. [10] and [11]. Oda Mari (talk) 04:53, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks!71.54.120.189 (talk) 03:12, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Arts for Deletion (or not)

Would Eric Van Hove be significantly more "notable" (either in the real-world or in the bizarre Wikipedia sense of the word) than the Daiko Group, I wonder. -- Hoary (talk) 03:36, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Translation request for potential featured picture

Surimono print by Gakutei, circa 1818-1830. Digitally restored from File:Year of the ram.jpg.

Hi, I've completed restoration on another print. Some of the featured picture reviewers demand translations, so if any of the project participants can read the calligraphy on this one it would be wonderful to have a translation. Any help appreciated. Best regards, Durova386 01:56, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Hrmpf. I can only offer what is written in "regular" characters on the leftmost side: 文一陽連江戸名所見立十二支 and what's written in the title in the middle: 未  蔵前八幡, but frankly, I can't make sense of any of the first one. The lower part of the second one says Kuramae Hachiman, i.e. a Hachiman shrine in a place called Kuramae. Hope anyone can do something with the first part. Also, we could really use someone who can read calligraphy here... TomorrowTime (talk) 15:24, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
The shrine could be in Tokyo: 35°42′17.52″N 139°47′30.65″E / 35.7048667°N 139.7918472°E / 35.7048667; 139.7918472. The address matches that mentioned here. 未 most likely refers to the Goat (depicted in the print), the eigth sign of the Chinese zodiac. As for: 文一陽連江戸名所見立十二支, I don't know about 文一陽連. The rest is as follows. 江戸名所: famous places in Edo, a reference to other works of this topic like One Hundred Famous Views of Edo or Edo Meisho Zue. 見立: short for 見立絵 (mitate-e) parody pictures, see here for an explanation. 十二支: the twelve signs of the Chinese zodiac (one is depicted here). Sorry am not good at calligraphy. bamse (talk) 17:26, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
Bamse is correct. It's kyoka surimono/狂歌摺物. As for 文一陽連, it's "written by ichiyo group". It's written on the page of the source. As for the three kyoka, I'm sorry that I cannot read Cursive script (East Asia). Oda Mari (talk) 18:28, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
Thank you all very much. Do any of you have referrals to someone who could read this particular script? Calligraphy from this period takes specialized knowledge to read? Durova386 19:00, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
I'll try to find someone. Please wait for a few days. Thank you. Oda Mari (talk) 19:11, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
I'll also try to find someone who can read it. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:12, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

It's so maddening to scroll through the calligraphy and being able to only make out the occasional の or け or the odd kanji, like 田舎, with the rest seemingly really only a little out of reach, isn't it? Anyway, I noticed there's some more non-calligraphy script in the lower part I didn't even notice earlier. There's two kanji on the blue background next to the feet of the onlookers that I can't quite make out (author's name, possibly?), and then there's the following three lines on the white background:大年(probably)市丸、  貢雪道、  門松並吉. As before, I can't quite make out what that's supposed to mean - I can make out all of the kanji, but they just don't make much sense grouped up like that... TomorrowTime (talk) 19:33, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the two kanji on the blue background are 岳亭 = Gakutei is the author's Art-name.bamse (talk) 19:43, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
The other non-cursive script kanji might be the names of the kyoukas' authors. bamse (talk) 20:16, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
Maybe (veryvery unsure about it) 門松並吉 = Kudamatsu Heikichi, 貢雪道 = ???, 大年市丸 = Ōtoshi Ichimaru bamse (talk) 20:31, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
門松 must be Kadomatsu and 並吉 can also be Namikichi. No Google hits for either of these authors. By the way I noticed that first and third kyoka both mention about "唐の獣 (or けもの)," which probably refers to the sheep. --Sushiya (talk) 22:50, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
I asked an expert on the image. This is the reply. "This is one from a very famous series of twelve surimono. 'Ichiyo-ren Edo Meisho Mitate Junishi', created in probably about 1825. This is of course the one for 'Ram'.One the left are the three poems, each one followed by the 'art name' of the group member who created it. These are not 'real' names. In the middle is 'Koan Michi', but I'm not sure about the pronunciation of the other two. As for the description of the image, this is _not_ ukiyo-e, it is a genre known as 摺物." As for the kyoka poems, even though we can read them, the expert says "there is a huge amount of word play, and hidden meanings, most of which were only known to the people in the immediate poetry group who made the surimono. I'm not really sure if it _can_ be 'translated', at least in any level beyond the bare words." Oda Mari (talk) 09:27, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
I found someone!
*さえづるや唐の獣もゆふゆふと御国のはるの花鳥の茶屋 大年市丸
*異(こと)くにのけもの見にたつ田舎人(ゐなかびと)それさへ髭(ひげ)のしろくありけり 貢雪道
*ことさえて唐のけものを見はててもまだ未(ひつじ)にはならぬ春の日 門松並吉
I can help, but don't ask me to translate. Oda Mari (talk) 15:36, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Thank you very much; could you translate the name of the actual genre please? And thanks all for the team effort with this one. It's a beautiful image. Durova390 18:01, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
That genre name translates to surimono, which looks to be a special kind of ukiyo-e woodblock print. --TorsodogTalk 18:35, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Then this would probably be our first surimono featured picture candidate. Even if it isn't possible to capture all the wordplay of the poem, the FPC reviewers would appreciate a translation (some of them insist upon it). Again, thanks for all the help. It's wonderful to post a request and receive this many responses. Cheers, Durova390 18:44, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
I will not even pretend I can tell what the wordplays and puns in the poems are or how exactly they are humorous, but the general gist of all three of them seems to be: "There's this picture of a beast (獣 kemono) from T'ang China (唐, Kara) and people come and wonder at it.". The middle one seems to be particularly high-and-mighty - A picture of a wondrous beast from foreign lands (異(こと)くに, kotokuni) is displayed and the ignorant Japanese peasant folk wonder at its white fur. Bear in mind, sheep were not traditionally present in Japan. TomorrowTime (talk) 10:11, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
I edited the description of the image. Though the Library of Congress page says the author's name is "Yajima Gogaku", it should be "Yashima Gakutei" or the most widely used name "Gakutei". I could find no "Yajima Gogaku" page in ja. Hope there's no objection. Oda Mari (talk) 05:29, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a reference for the correction? The Library of Congress staff are pretty good about correcting errors when there's a source to verify it. If they confirm your change I'll drop a good word for you with the Signpost. Durova390 17:33, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry Durova, I couldn't find the name Gogaku in kanji yesterday. It turned out to be 五岳. It is not wrong to describe the author's name Gogaku, but Yajima is wrong. It's Yashima. Anyway, I think using "Yajima/Yashima Gogaku" is confusing. Gakutei used many names. Most of them were Gakutei + XXX. Please see the search results below. I think you'd understand why I thought "Gakutei" was the best choice. These are the results of G search of his names.
*Just "Gakutei" hits 3820.[12]
*"Yashima Gakutei" hits 9960.[13]
*"やしまがくてい"/Yashima Gakutei hits 7.[14]
*"やじまがくてい"/Yajima Gakutei hits 0.[15]
*"Gakutei Sadaoka" hits 1670.[16]
"Gakutei Kyuzan" hits 969.[17]
*"八島五岳"/Yashima Gogaku hits 207.[18]
*""やじまごがく"/Yajima Gogaku hits 0.[19]
*"やしまごがく"/Yashima Gogaku hits 0.[20]
Searching for books by author's name at the National Diet Library [21], Gakutei hits 15, Yashima Gakutei 0, Yashima Gogaku 13, Gakutei Sadaoka 5, Gakutei Harunobu 11, and Gakutei Kyuzan 11.
Searching at the Waseda University data base, Gakutei hits 18, Gkutei Kyuzan 16, Yashima Gakutei 4, and Yashima Gogaku 0. Oda Mari (talk) 06:40, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Featured list candidate request for reviewers

Hello! I re-nominated List of National Treasures of Japan (paintings) at FLC. A previous nomination failed (with one "support" and no "oppose") because of a lack of reviews. All comments of that nomination have been addressed and the list has virtually not changed since then. I am looking for reviewers to comment on the list with regard to the featured list criteria. Please leave your comments/votes here. Thanks. bamse (talk) 09:53, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

It just got featured. No reviews necessary anymore.bamse (talk) 09:58, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Top Importance Articles

I think there are some important ommissions from the "Top Importance" articles. I have already added Wildlife of Japan, Shinto, Ryukyu Kingdom, and Himeji Castle.

I was wondering about adding these. Some may be debateable, but I think many are definitely of "Top Importance", according to the description of what constitutes an article of that importance level:

I know there are quite a few there, but "Japan" is a broad topic. Puchiwonga (talk) 03:09, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

An interesting list. I'd agree with a lot of it, while being personally uninterested in the majority. As for what I disagree with:
  • Christians set up universities in Japan, and did other good things. Still, and though I mean no offence to any Japanese (or other) Christians here, I can't see how Christianity is important in Japan. Indeed, it seems less important in Japan than in almost any other country of which I have knowledge.
  • How were "ninja" and "ninjutsu" important?
  • How was seppuku important?
-- Hoary (talk) 03:25, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
I also don't understand how any of these lists could be of top importance, or Pokemon (much though kids may adore them) or katana. -- Hoary (talk) 12:13, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Well, the description for what a "top importance" article is reads: "Core topics (e.g., Japan, Shinto, History of Japan). Subject is a must-have for a print encyclopedia. High probability that non-Japanophiles would look this up. Must have had a large impact outside of Japan and be known in the majority of the world. For example, Sudoku is very popular worldwide and known in most of the world."
Christianity did have an effect on the "closing" of Japan, but perhaps because I was thinking that the "print encyclopedia" in reference was meant for an English-speaking audience, most of which have a Christian background or live in a society where Christianity is important, it may be important to the audience. But it's definitely debateable, so if you or others disagree, it can remain at high importance.
The others mentioned, "seppuku", "ninja", "ninjutsu", "katana", and "Pokemon" are on my list because of the second part (the probability that non-Japanophiles would look this up/Has a large impact outside of Japan and be known by the majority of the world). I think all of these fit that description. I think they are all more well-known than sudoku, the example. Maybe some people wouldn't want the "Top importance" articles to be a mere list of stereotypical "Japanese" things, but I think from the description, it seems as though they should be there.
As for the two lists, I didn't really want to add lists, but there doesn't seem to be a better category to add. I was trying to find an all-encompassing category to cut down the list to something manageable. Japanese culture is quite rich in its number of "legendary creatures" (as they are called here) like Kappa (folklore), Tengu, and many others. Individually, they probably don't qualify for top importance, but I thought as a whole, it is important and not covered under any of the current categories. The inventions also seemed quite important for a "Japan" project, since they are something that people are interested in when looking at countries/cultures and their accomplishments.
Those were my thoughts behind including the above articles. I'm sure I left out important articles, too, so feel free to add others and continue critiquing the list. If any of the above do not seem rightfully justified, we can nix them, or if there is something more appropriate than those lists. Puchiwonga (talk) 22:02, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Killer Whale - featured article review

I have nominated Killer Whale for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Tom B (talk) 19:49, 30 December 2009 (UTC)