Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/January 2012

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1503 reproduction of Murasaki Shikibu Diary Emaki

Murasaki shikibu diary.JPG

Does anybody know of a reproduction of the 13th century Murasaki Shikibu Diary Emaki from the year 1503? I am asking since the original depicted in the image is from 1503 according to the source. Unlike other images of the same scene, this image has a fold running through Fujiwara no Michinaga. Could this fold be from a folding screen or is it a book fold (likely not from a book from 1503 but from a recent publication). Basically what I am asking is, what is this 1503 reproduction of the original emaki? bamse (talk) 14:29, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

I emailed the source (Yale University) and they told me that the image is a scan from a this recent book which explains the fold. They'd need to re-check whether the date (1503) is correct or not. bamse (talk) 20:46, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Japan at the 2012 Winter Youth Olympics

Hi I am trying to expand this article but do not understand a word of Japanese. Can someone that understands the language list all the athletes competing on the article please and thank you. The list I believe could be found here: [1] Intoronto1125TalkContributions 02:37, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Indeed that is the page. Do you also need the coaches/team leader/supervisors? Do you also need the age of the people and their origin (sports club)? Shall I drop the translation here or somewhere else? bamse (talk) 07:23, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
Just the list of athletes something like what is listed here would be great. No coach names are needed but preferably the number of coaches and officials on the team would be great. Also if possible can you list the athletes here as the subject already has an article already. Thank you!! Intoronto1125TalkContributions 13:27, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
I started. Is it OK like that? I added the names in Japanese since the names in transcriptions could have various spellings in Japanese. Also, I did not create red links, since I am not sure if they will ever get wikipedia articles. bamse (talk) 17:03, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
I think they should be left with the red links, as likely they will compete at future Olympic games which warrant an article. I don't think the Japanese writing is necessary though. Thank you!! Intoronto1125TalkContributions 00:30, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
I think the Japanese writing is essential to avoid misunderstandings (see for instance the discussion "Names of first ascenders of Manaslu?" above) at least until they get their own wikipedia article (where the Japanese spelling should appear in those article). I'll redlink all names. bamse (talk) 09:20, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
If you think so I really can't say anything :) I was just going on past experiences when nation articles were created for Japan (see for ex. Japan at the 2010 Winter Olympics) Intoronto1125TalkContributions 14:28, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Glad you like it. :) I'll remove Japanese script for blue linked names. At least the Japanese text fills up the empty space a bit ;-) bamse (talk) 14:55, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Very wobbly

This morning's odd discovery: "Konnyaku Bridge". This is, shall we say, problematic. However, I am not a civil engineer or similar. -- Hoary (talk) 00:46, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I tried to make it a little sturdier (the article, that is). Michitaro (talk) 02:14, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
Thank you, and Nihonjoe too. -- Hoary (talk) 07:01, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Chosokabe Clan Status?

Are any descendants of the Chosokabe Clan alive today or were they all killed by the Tokugawa Shogunate or some other event? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 07:06, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

As this question isn't about an article, it's better asked elsewhere. -- Hoary (talk) 03:44, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
I found the official website of the clan, written by Tomochika in Japanese, whose ancestor is Chōsokabe Kunichika's son, Chikafusa. He also published a book on the clan. --Shinkansen Fan (talk) 03:30, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Wall Scroll Question.

Does anyone know the name and/or have a picture of the old Japanese Wall Scroll that showed a Samurai holding a smoking cannon? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 03:46, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

As this question isn't about an article, it's better asked elsewhere. (See the response to your earlier question, close above.) As is any other question that you or anybody else may have about Japan. -- Hoary (talk) 05:58, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
As long as they don't get out of hand, I think it's fine to ask the occasional question here. If we get too many, perhaps we'll have to make a reference desk page for it. I don't see that happening any time soon, though. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 08:10, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
I don't know any such thing, but am curious. What is a Japanese Wall Scroll? bamse (talk) 09:35, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Kakemono, I presume. -- Hoary (talk) 11:10, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that, thank you. I'm looking for the one that has a Samurai in front of it holding a smoking cannon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 11:22, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Maybe look through the ones here. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 06:21, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


I am translating the names of participants of Japan at the 2012 Winter Youth Olympics on request (see above). The official site uses both, 監督 and コーチ, see here. How shall I translate those titles, both as "coach" or is 監督 something else? bamse (talk) 09:58, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Manager? [2] and [3] Oda Mari (talk) 10:27, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Sounds good, thanks. bamse (talk) 11:51, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Now, in ice hockey they have "総務". Any idea on how to distinguish the three (総務, 監督 and コーチ) in English? bamse (talk) 15:19, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I would use "manager" for that as well. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 06:18, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
I did translation professionally back in the old days and in a case like this I would find rosters of other nations and see what terms they would use. But 総務 here is probably unusual because, if the roster page is right, Japan is only sending two hockey players, not a team. "Manager" might work, but in the sense of a tarento manager. Michitaro (talk) 13:25, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
True, but in hindsight it would be better to use different terms. Intoronto1125TalkContributions 13:39, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
Why would it be better to use a different term? It pretty much means "manager" in this context. The only other reasonable translation would be something like "director", but that doesn't really make sense for a team. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 06:17, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Not sure whether it gives any insight, 総務 is used for snowboard and ice hockey here and 監督 for speed skating. bamse (talk) 15:26, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I called JOC. They say there is little difference among the three words. I mean what they actually do is the same and they are just using different nouns. Ha ha ha. JOC's suggestion in en was コーチ would be coach, 監督 head coach, and 総務 manager. But IMHO, just coach is enough. Oda Mari (talk) 07:14, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Utane bread


There is a bread called "Utane" at T&T Supermarkets in Vancouver BC. It claims that "'Utane' is a superb Japanese baking technique, with dough mixing into warm water before cooling it within chill environment. Utane bread is extra soft and spongy with fresh taste." (Picture here.) I haven't been able to find any information about it online except on blogs talking about the T&T one. Is this a real Japanese type of bread? It is very good. InverseHypercube 02:56, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

It looks typical of the bread that is commonly sold in supermarket chains and in mom & pop bakeries in Japan. I didn't know there was a specific name for the recipe/technique, though it doesn't surprise me that (1) there is a name for it, or (2) I never heard of it. Now that I read back, I guess my reply isn't very helpful. Hopefully other editors will have more insight. Boneyard90 (talk) 03:35, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
I suspect strongly that it's not a baking technique, just poor English use of the word "is" (probably translating the particle 「は」 as "is"). I'm guessing "Utane" is a brand name (it's what the kanji in the logo says, after all: "hot water" and "seed" (which would just mean the wheat "seed" the flour is made from)), and that it uses (rather than "is") the technique described in the text (which may or may not have a name to it). CüRlyTüRkeyTalkContribs 03:43, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Here is a link to the relevant Japanese article ja:湯種. The English word would be rendered "Yutane", and it uses the same kanji shown on the wrapper in the photo you provided. Another editor might provide a more accurate translation, but it looks like it says stuff similar to what you quoted above, and that starch is added to the flour. The term was coined by the Koubeya Company (of Osaka), and was picked up by a couple of other companies (Okumoto Co. and the Shikishima Baking Co.). Hope this helps. Boneyard90 (talk) 03:51, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Actually, it says that Koubeya sells a bread with the "Yudane" name on it, but the patent for the process is owned Okumoto Co., the Shikishima Baking Co. and a number of other companies. Either way, it's a patented process, which suggests strongly it's not traditional, or used at all outside of industry. CüRlyTüRkeyTalkContribs 04:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Thank you! That is probably what it is. InverseHypercube 04:13, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
種 in 湯種 is not "seed". It's "dough" and the word literally means "hot water dough". Yudane is a dough made with boiling water. Boiling water changes the β-starch in flour into α-starch and it makes the starch sweeter. See starch gelatinization. You have to make it hours before you bake bread. Wrap the dough and put it it the refrigerator. About 1 to 8 hours. In other words, wait till the dough is cold enough. All you have to do is add/mix the dough to the ordinary dough when you bake bread. Yudane bread tastes good and the taste lasts longer than the standard bread. See a recipe site page translated by Yahoo (G translation) and [4]. There is a ready made flour mix for Yudane bread sold in Japan. [5] And this is the Kobeya page. Oda Mari (talk) 09:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
My dictionaries say that 「種」 refers to the leavening agent, rather than the dough (it translates "dough" as 「練り粉」). Could we get an elaboration? Also, given that there are recipes for the bread online, does this mean it's commonly known? I wouldn't have thought a patented recipe would be available online. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 13:13, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Please see the second definition of this entry of パン種 and Pandane to tamago hime. The Ghibli page is here and see the phrase "こねていたパン種が..." As for 練り物, the word is used for fish paste products, our article title is surimi though. See [6]. And it is also used for bean paste sweets. See [7]. Another word for dough in ja is 生地 and it's more commonly used like パン生地/bread dough and パイ生地/pie dough. See [8]. I don't use 練り物 to describe dough. I didn't know about the bread, but it seems not rare. See the results of G search. I don't think the recipe is patented. I guess Kobeya holds a patent of the yudane making method they developed. Oda Mari (talk) 15:45, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Great detective work! This WikiProject seems very active.
I took an image (File:Yudane bread.JPG) and put it on the Japanese article. InverseHypercube 17:06, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Dispute at Ryukyu Islands

I would like to bring up an issue occuring at Ryukyu Islands (edit|talk|history|protect|delete|links|watch|logs|views). In the beginning of the year, I discovered that someone had created a content fork at Ryūkyū Shotō (edit|talk|history|protect|delete|links|watch|logs|views) which seemed to be only based on the arguments between two editors (Nanshu (talk · contribs) and 虞海 (talk · contribs) [Yu Hai]). They seem to be set on making a separate article that only covers what they deem the Japanese geographic definition of 琉球諸島, rather than the English definition of "Ryukyu Islands" which includes Kagoshima Prefecture's Amami Islands (at least according to Britannica).

I would like more eyes on this page, because they are assuming that this 5 year old AFD should determine whether or not a separate article just on the Japanese definition of the word which is just a copy of content from Ryukyu Islands (edit|talk|history|protect|delete|links|watch|logs|views) and Okinawa Prefecture (edit|talk|history|protect|delete|links|watch|logs|views).—Ryulong (竜龙) 20:08, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

William S. Clark

Hello, I wanted to drop a note here to let people involved in this project know about an open FA nomination for William S. Clark. The article is a part of WikiProject Japan. Clark was an American educator who helped establish Sapporo Agricultural College which became Hokkaido University. He had a major impact on the history of that region. So far, the nomination has not attracted much attention and I hope that some folks from this project might be inclined to comment. The nomination can be found here. Thanks. Historical Perspective (talk) 14:15, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Is this the correct name in English?

I just created an article called Soushoku danshi I don't know if this the correct title of the name in English. Dwanyewest (talk) 06:21, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

In Japanese, it's normally Sōshokukei danshi (草食系男子?), but you may want to consider merging your new article with the existing article at Herbivore men before moving everything to Sōshokukei danshi. --DAJF (talk) 06:32, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
I have started a merger proposal at Soushoku danshi's talk page if anyone wishes to discuss the future of both articles be my guest. Dwanyewest (talk) 10:36, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
As the existing article at Herbivore men already has a year's worth of edit history that needs to be retained, wouldn't it make more sense to boldly merge any new material from the recently created Soushoku danshi into Herbivore men before starting a move discussion to determine the best final destination for the article (likely to be either the correct Romanized Japanese at Sōshokukei danshi or the English at Herbivore men)? In my experience, merge proposals just hang around for months or even years without anything happening. --DAJF (talk) 05:26, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
I agree. A bold merge to Herbivore men and then a proposed move discussion will likely be a more efficient way of doing this. — Mr. Stradivarius 05:35, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Akashi crowd crush

I started the article. Request assistance to add Japanese name and link to wp.ja article. Thank you. Cla68 (talk) 22:33, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Added both. While wp.ja title is ja:明石花火大会歩道橋事故, it seems common to refer to the incident without 花火大会, I removed it from Japanese name. --Kusunose 02:00, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
For some reason, that page is screwing up my browser... Is there some broken coding on it? (talk) 04:48, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
It's working for me. Is that the only Wikipedia article your browser is having trouble with? Cla68 (talk) 05:07, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Yes. (talk) 09:25, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Toki o Kakeru Shōjo

The naming of Toki o Kakeru Shōjo is under discussion, please see Talk:Toki o Kakeru Shōjo. (talk) 05:06, 20 January 2012 (UTC)


There is some discussion over the Defaultsort of Japanese names with the "no" element in them (like Fujiwara no Sadakata). Some use "Fujiwara, Sadakata" while others defaultsorts those as Fujiwara no, Sadakata. Could some of you please give your opinion on this, or point to previous discussions, guidelines, ... related to this specific aspect? Your comments are welcome at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Formal_proposal, or if you prefer to avoid WP:AN, on my talk page or here. Thanks! Fram (talk) 13:40, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Actually of those three venues only here makes sense. Also there is another question just as important (probably more important), I see the DEFAULTSORT as set up by experts generally being of the form "Fujiwara no, Sadakata" in some few cases "Fujiwara, no Sadakata". While it seems to me consistency is all that is important here , and so I have been going with the apparent consensus "Fujiwara no, Sadakata", I would be interested if there are good reasons to do things differently. Rich Farmbrough, 14:18, 27 January 2012 (UTC).
Well, I tried to pose a neutral question about what the defaultsort for these articles should be, without upfront giving supposedly "expert" opinions. Nice way of getting your preferred method immediatley labeled the "expert" version. Perhaps we can now let other people discuss this without trying to promote any version over the other? Fram (talk) 14:25, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Oh, and you neutrally suggested they answer at AN or your talk page, so that you could use it as ammunition in your campaign? Unlike you I just want an answer, I am not invested in whether it is the same answer as I had. You also asked an incomplete question, failing to understand that I have no re-asked your question, but a different one, although it may of course be, quite reasonably, that there is no opinion here on that, or only opinion of the form "This is what I would do, but either way as long as it is consistent." - which in fact is my opinion, and why I went with what appeared to be consensus. I would like to say that I never dreamed such a choice would be brought up against me at AN, but of course I know full well that anything I do can be twisted to those ends by you. Rich Farmbrough, 17:10, 27 January 2012 (UTC).
Since I had (and have) no idea what their opinion would be, I can hardly be accused of some devious plan to use it as ammunition in my "campaign". Can we please let those people who would still be inclined to answer do whatever they want with it, and keep the conspiracy theories and half-baked reasonings of this page? Fram (talk) 20:05, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
I wish you would. Rich Farmbrough, 22:11, 27 January 2012 (UTC).
The one which makes most sense if you want to include everything in the title is "Fujiwara no, Sadakata" (to use the example here) as "Fujiwara" is the surname and "Sadakata" is the given name. The "no" is simply an older way of indicating that "Sadakata" belongs to the "Fujiwara" family. This would produce the desired result of sorting by surname first, then by given name, which is the whole point of DEFAULTSORT when used on biography pages. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 01:31, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Agree with Nihonjoe. Just out of curiosity, how are names with van, von, "de" (French) sorted? bamse (talk) 10:23, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Just for a comparison, the Library of Congress ignores the "no" when cataloging names from this era, omitting it both in figuring alphabetization, and in name authority (for example). The "no" is only treated as an alternate name. Michitaro (talk) 13:06, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Dutch names are sorted with "van" sent to the end but with "Van" kept, I believe. In general we send lower case prefixes to the end, but not always, and keep upper case. There are essentially three four meta-rules fighting each other.
  1. Sort without lower-case prefixes
  2. Sort as the native country would
  3. Sort by what the "name" is: under this rule "mac", "ibn", "bint" , "ap" and "nic" etc are part of the name as are prefixes meaning "The" and "of the", but words meaning "of" are disregarded. (English "Foo of Bar" is generally unsorted, but in this case neither Foo nor Bar are generally family names.)
  4. Sort by where people "would look"
Obviously all these present difficulties, 1. treats "van Plonk" differently from "Van Plonk" - a naive user is not going to expect this (and even a sophisticated one might not remember the capitalisation). 2. Is basically politically correct, but sorts similar names differently. 3 is logical but sorts "de Foo" differently depending on whether it is French of Dutch (and requires some knowledge of every language used in name-making). 4 is a nice try, but of course different people would look in different places.
Since all these apply to family name prefixes, rather than suffixes, they help us not.
Rich Farmbrough, 15:22, 29 January 2012 (UTC).

great start of an article

There's a great start of an article at User:Yokohama1/sandbox, I'd like to move it into mainspace soon. Could you all please take a look and tweak what you see necessary? 有難うございます!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 02:40, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

The page is now at International Boy Scouts, Troop 1, where you moved it only 8 minutes after posting here. The article really needs some rewriting to be more encyclopedic in tone and definitely needs some references. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 09:24, 30 January 2012 (UTC)


There's a requested move at Talk:Dai Kan-Wa jiten#Requested move that could probably use some input from members of this project. Cheers, Jenks24 (talk) 11:41, 31 January 2012 (UTC)