Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement

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Nomination of Letter to a CES Director for deletion[edit]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Letter to a CES Director is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Letter to a CES Director until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Eustress (talkcontribs)

Official Auxiliary Titles[edit]

Up until recently the titles for the LDS General Relief society and Young Women and other Axillary were standardized across the leaders. Such as "XXth General President of the Relief Society" and "Second Counselor in the general presidency of the Relief Society". However recently User:ChristensenMJ has been changing them to titles such as 15th Relief Society General President.

I understand his desire. The LDS church often refers to them in both formats, however, I am under the impression that "General President of the Relief Society" and "Counselor in the general presidency of the Relief Society" are the official and correct way of doing this. So my question is, shouldn't "XXth General President of the Relief Society" and "First/Second Counselor in the general presidency of the Relief Society" be the standardized across the board title, so that all pages use the same official LDS title in the infobox.--- ARTEST4ECHO (talk) 17:50, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, not only for initiating the discussion but for all your efforts across WP. I agree completely with efforts to standardize, or provide consistency, across the info or succession boxes. This is what I have been trying to do as I saw a number of edits being made or boxes added. You are right that there are several different usages employed when identifying the assignments/titles. I disagree that the manner of identification provided above is the official way. When providing a source, if one were to view the church's website for a leader's profile (Linda K. Burton) or a talk associated with General Conference/General Women's Meeting (Bonnie L. Oscarson), those sources each use "Young Women General President" and so forth. The auxiliary counselors are not as standardized (in print) and in that instance I think it becomes as much about being succinct or providing ease of reading. To show "Counselor in the general presidency of the Relief Society" can be more direct by showing something such as "XX Counselor, Relief Society General Presidency" or "XX Counselor in the Relief Society General Presidency" (with the latter being consistent with the leader profiles or conference-related addresses noted previously). So, those are my thoughts and rationale toward the recent edits. ChristensenMJ (talk) 22:23, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Coming a little late to this discussion, but wanted to put my two cents in. I am basing my comments and thus my opinion on what we should do upon what I observed in the most recent General Conference Ensign and on what I've observed on the Church website. From the Ensign, on page 15, a talk by Linda S. Reeves introduces her as "Second Counselor in the Relief Society General Presidency". On page 56, a talk by Randall L. Ridd introduces him as "Second Counselor in the Young Men General Presidency." On page 81, a talk by Jean A. Stevens introduces her as "First Counselor in the Primary General Presidency." Talks in the General Women's Meeting introduce each speaker as "[Auxiliary] General President." Tad R. Callister's biography on page 143 introduces him as "Sunday School General President" and the subsequent page introduces his counselors as "First/Second Counselor in the Sunday School General Presidency." The biographies for these leaders are much the same. The presidents are referred to as "[Auxiliary] General President" while the counselors are referred to as "First/Second Counselor in the [Auxiliary] Presidency." Since that is the preferred method the Church uses, that should be our method as well. At least, that's my opinion. Other thoughts? --Jgstokes (talk) 07:16, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I was asked on my talk page to add my two cents here. The ordinal numbers in something like "15th Relief Society General President" are descriptive text, and not part of any official title. The LDS Church doesn't use regnal numbers, or anything like that, within official titles to indicate order of historical succession within any particular position. There are however ordinals used in titles that do not indicate historical succession, but instead a form of rank/position/differentiation in the church hierarchy at any one point in time; e.g.: "First Elder" for the President of the Church & "Second Elder" for the Assistant President of the Church (though that usage was discontinued after the death of Joseph and Hyrum); 1st and 2nd Counselors (etc...) in various presidencies; 1st and 2nd Quorums (etc...) of the Seventies. Even at a local level, if there are enough young men to require more one Deacons quorum in a ward, there is a 1st Deacons quorum, 2nd Deacons quorum (etc...). This is the only way I'm aware of that the LDS Church actually uses ordinal numbers in official titles; unfortunately I do not currently have a ref that independently proves this observation. Asterisk*Splat 16:11, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
I don't think that is really what we are talking about here. It's not the numbering that is at issue. As far as I've seen, when referring to the 1st and 2nd Councilor of an Auxiliary, it's official title is (Using the Relief Society as an example), First Counselor in the Relief Society General Presidency, not Relief Society First Counselor. The issues is which form is correct.--- ARTEST4ECHO (talk) 19:16, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Correct, numbering is not at issue in this discussion. The issue raised also needs to be kept consistent. In the opening comments for this section, an example such as "First/Second Counselor in the general presidency of the Relief Society" was given as the official way, but the comment above then shows the example as "First Counselor in the Relief Society General Presidency." Use of "Relief Society First Counselor" noted in the same comment has not been suggested or used. ChristensenMJ (talk) 19:41, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Sorry for misunderstanding what was being asked. The LDS Church's official webpages about General Auxiliaries leadership positions currently list the titles as follows:
  • Relief Society General President[1]
  • First Counselor in the Relief Society General Presidency[2]
  • Second Counselor in the Relief Society General Presidency[3]
  • Young Women General President[4]
  • First Counselor in the Young Women General Presidency[5]
  • Second Counselor in the Young Women General Presidency[6]
  • Primary General President[7]
  • First Counselor in the Primary General Presidency[8]
  • Second Counselor in the Primary General Presidency[9]
  • Sunday School General President[10]
  • First Counselor in the Sunday School General Presidency[11]
  • Second Counselor in the Sunday School General Presidency[12]
  • Young Men General President[13]
  • First Counselor in the Young Men General Presidency[14]
  • Second Counselor in the Young Men General Presidency[15]
I'll have to look at other resources to see if there is consistency to this naming convention in secondary sources. Asterisk*Splat 22:21, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment. I agree with those who have suggested that probably the closest thing to formal titles are "General President of the Relief Society" and "1st/2nd Counselor in the general presidency of the Relief Society". I agree would should have consistency across infoboxes etc. for presidency members across all the auxiliaries. As far as I can see, there have been some slight deviations from these standard usages (such as the "First Counselor in the Relief Society General Presidency"), but these seem minor and relatively unimportant to me. I doubt that there is an actual "official" title for the counselors that the church has adopted, but I think it's fine if we want to adopt a convention for them for Wikipedia naming purposes. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:49, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
  • As I stated before, the Church has a particular naming convention (as capably outlined above by AsteriskStarSplat, and that should be the guideline we should follow. ie: [Auxiliary] General President and First/Second Counselor in the [Auxiliary] General Presidency. Any other conventions should be ignored, because that's not the way the Church does it. The sources available bear this out. --Jgstokes (talk) 01:32, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
    • We don't absolutely have to follow conventions that the LDS Church establishes or prefers. For instance, if secondary sources consistently used a different format, it would make more sense from a Wikipedia standpoint to use what the secondary sources always use. In these cases of the varying titles, the differences are slight—it's really just a difference of word placement—and I can't imagine that it will make a big difference which approach was adopted. (The difference in "General President of the RS" and "RS General President" is essentially equivalent to the difference between "President of the Church" and "Church President". I see nothing wrong with any of these four.) I'd prefer to use whatever is commonest in the secondary sources. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:12, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

And that is...what, exactly? I'm not sure what you're proposing. Thanks for clarifying. --Jgstokes (talk) 05:30, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I didn't really explicitly propose anything. My overall point is that the differences are so slight that I don't think it matters much which format is selected. But I was kind of awaiting AsteriskStarSplat's survey of secondary sources, since it sounded like he was going to do that eventually. Good Ol’factory (talk) 07:42, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Makes sense. I guess we await for his survey of secondary sources, then? --Jgstokes (talk) 12:39, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

That's going to take me a a few days; definitely will not be today. Asterisk*Splat 00:55, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Take your time. No need to feel rushed or anything. At the end of the day, it's not a pressing issue that needs immediate attention. --Jgstokes (talk) 05:36, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Jmheer's edits on Mormon cosmology.[edit]

In looking over the Mormon cosmology Wikipedia page, I noticed that several edits had been done by a new user named Jmheer. These edits appear to have been well thought out and all explained, but I always worry when a newbie editor makes a series of changes to a single page. It's as if a warning light goes off in my head and my automatic inclination is to revert the page back to where it was before such edits were made. I don't want to do so, however, if all the edits are considered necessary and helpful. So I thought I'd raise the issue for discussion here, then act or not based upon whatever the consensus decides. Mentioning this user by name in this topic will give him/her a chance to come here and defend his/her edits. What worries me is that many of them were tagged with the getting started template thingy that most new users are introduced to. And I don't know if his/her explanations are sufficient. So I wanted to post here and discuss it. Am I being overly protective of the page and unjustly suspicious of this new editor? Or am I justified in feeling this way? Please be honest. I prefer a well-intentioned truth to a kind lie any day of the week. What do you say, fellow Wikipedians? Thanks in advance for discussing this. --Jgstokes (talk) 03:54, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

  • Comment. They look generally OK to me, though the references provided are not ideal, since they are scriptures (primary sources) rather than secondary sources. But I suppose having those references is better than having no reference at all. Apart from the references, the only content added was the statement, "The earth that God the Father dwelt on as a mortal was not, however, created by Jehovah or subject to his atonement, but existed previously." It's uncited, but I have no objection to it being added as I think such a statement would be uncontroversial to most Mormons doctrinally, however esoteric and removed from everyday religious consideration the topic might be. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:45, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
I trust your judgment. As long as they look all right to you, as far as I'm concerned, they can remain. I just was a little troubled that a new editor was adding new material without explaining it as thoroughly as he should, and I wondered if the sources cited were all right. Unless anyone has any strenuous objections to this edit, I will consider this matter honorably closed. (Btw, sorry about forgetting to sign my comment above. Added a proper signature to it just barely, but it makes the comments appear out of sync.) --Jgstokes (talk) 03:54, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Here is a little essay I have found helpful in dealing with newcomers. ~Adjwilley (talk) 05:55, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Thank you, Adjwilley. That was most helpful and informative. I had to cringe at some of the things the article warns against, though, as I have been guilty of some of them in my interactions with newcomers. I will try to remember what I've learned from that article. Thanks again for pointing me to it!--Jgstokes (talk) 06:28, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I tend to reject such statements as you cited above as opinion and having nothing to do with official doctrine of the Church. The entire concept of God having a mortal existence is not well understood and not part of official doctrine for that reason. Gordon B. Hinckley even said he did not think it was taught in the Church. This is not to say that individuals do not offer opinions on the subject or attempt to do so. It is something that I would delete until such time as an editor gave an official reference identifying it as doctrine, which does not exist to my knowledge. --StormRider 08:36, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

If they're sourced, though, and attributed to a reputable, authoritative source, that means they would be eligible, right? Not trying to be contentious here, just trying to make sure that we don't unduly or unjustly upset this new editor by undoing some or all of his edits simply because we may personally take issue with what he's cited. Lorenzo Snow has been quoted as saying, "As man now is, God once was; as God is now man may be." So the concept of God being mortal once is not entirely foreign to adherents of the Latter Day Saint movement. I wanted to be very cautious before reverting some or all of this user's edits. That's why I started this topic. I could go either way at this point. That's why I wanted to discuss this issue and let the consensus decide. That's why I'm glad Adjwilley pointed me towards that article about interacting with new editors. If it were not for my initial reservations on the issue and for him directing me to that article, I might have reverted all the edits already, driving away this editor and doing irreparable damage. --Jgstokes (talk) 09:29, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Also note that we're not just talking about what the LDS Church teaches or considers official doctrine. Mormon cosmology is also made up of folk beliefs and also the teachings of Mormon fundamentalists, so the range of potential sources is not as limited as Storm Rider suggests. Good Ol’factory (talk) 10:11, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
I don't have any problem as long as there is a distinction made between what is actual doctrine and what is not. There are folk beliefs, there are opinions, and there are past teachings. This can be quite complicated for an individual who is not well studied in LDS Church teachings.
Nothing I said above should have been interpreted as limiting references; the distinction is Church doctrine versus everything else. Do you see a problem with distinguishing between Church Doctrine and opinions, statements, folk beliefs, etc? If so, what is the objective of the article? I find it difficult to not separate actual Church doctrines from everything else. --StormRider 13:53, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

And I believe the user in question was citing official church doctrine and using scripture to back up his stated opinion. The only one he didn't have a reference for was the statement already noted: that God was once as we are now. But even that can be referenced by the Lorenzo Snow statement I cited in my last post. While it would have been far better for him to use secondary references not so closely connected to the LDS Church, I see no reason why we cannot keep his edits. Unless there is a specific objection you're making, that is. --Jgstokes (talk) 01:21, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

The issue I was getting at is that because "Mormon" ≠ LDS Church, so "Mormon cosmology" ≠ "LDS Church official doctrine of cosmology". You refer to "Church Doctrine" as if it is a monolithic body that everyone agrees upon, but that is not the case, simply because there are multiple "church"es in the idea of "church doctrine". So the article can't exactly divide stuff into two categories, church doctrine and not church doctrine.
And even just within the LDS Church, as you probably know, there's plenty of teachings that used to be regarded as doctrine that are now widely questioned or outright rejected today by the leadership or general membership, so it's not even a clear cut way to divide things within the teachings of the single church body. Good Ol’factory (talk) 05:23, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Excellent point. "Mormon" is a term that can be applied to many sects. The sources cited seem to be mostly related to the LDS Church, but I agree they are open to interpretation depending on contextual statements and evidence presented. --Jgstokes (talk) 05:49, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity/Core topics work group/Topic list#"LDS Church (Mormon)" instead of "LDS movement" about Template:Christianity & Template:Christianity footer that could use a more diverse set thoughts, and where members of this project and other interested parties might want to chime in. Asterisk*Splat 17:11, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal[edit]

Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Mormon's aren't Christians talk, again[edit]

There are recent, ongoing discussions at Talk:Jesus & Talk:Christianity about how Mormons (and other non-trinitarians) are not really Christians. Asterisk*Splat 01:27, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Political designations in blp infoboxes; or, "Is Orson Scott Card a genuine Democrat?"[edit]

The question turns on the use of the political party field in the infobox at blp's for individuals notable as political commentators. If that person is independent, would it be misleading to give his political affiliation, eg, a libertarian-leading conservative who voted for Obama as nonetheless affiliated as a Republican or a Lieberman-supporting commentator who ended up supporting Bush, McCain and Romney but who nevertheless prides himself as a member of the Democratic party? See the RfC @ Talk:Orson_Scott_Card#RFC:_Should_we_include_his_political_party_in_the_infobox.3F.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 18:35, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Template talk: LDS70pres[edit]

A conversation is currently taking place in Template talk:LDS70pres that affects how the template will work in the future. At the moment, only a handful or less of editors are involved in the discussion. We invite all interested parties to visit this topic and weigh in on this important discussion. Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 00:03, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

General Conference (LDS Church)[edit]

In one topic on Talk:General Conference (LDS Church), a discussion has started about potential sources that may be used to improve the article. But discussion has seemed to peter out, with original participants losing interest. As I don't feel comfortable with the idea of being bold and making the proposed changes myself, I thought I would post here and ask all interested parties to weigh in with comments on that talk page. Thanks for your efforts to help improve Latter Day Saint movement related articles! --Jgstokes (talk) 00:06, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Andrew E. Unsworth AfD[edit]

Members of this WikiProject, and other interested editors may be interested to know that there is an AfD open for Andrew E. Unsworth at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Andrew E. Unsworth. Asterisk*Splat 23:21, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Book of Mormon weights and measures AfD[edit]

Members of this WikiProject, and other interested editors may be interested to know that there is an AfD open for Book of Mormon weights and measures at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Book of Mormon weights and measures. Asterisk*Splat 01:24, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

WP:LDS Women[edit]

A few people are interested in donating time to flesh out the info about Mormon women. I'm starting this discussion section for coordination and Q and A. Off the top of my head, the first issue that needs to be addressed if any new articles are started is WP:Notability. I may not stick around, but I wanted to make a welcoming place for any WP:Newcomers to land. Tom Haws (talk) 20:41, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Orson Scott Card racist?[edit]

Commentators continue to reference/allege Card's piece involving a fictional, future Obama's coup d'état by way of urban guirillas as racist (eg see here in Slate, 2013; here, HuffPo, 2013; here, Wired, 2014). Should our article mention this aspect of controversy with regard to the piece here: "Orson Scott Card#Politics"?

(Also see a 2013 blogpost by M Aspan citing this from Card in 2000 rgding allegedly non-racist use of nigga'.)

See discussion here: Talk:Orson Scott Card#RfC: Subject of blp racist?

--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 21:25, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Afd on Newport Beach California Temple[edit]

As this AfD is related to this WikiProject, you may want to comment at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Newport Beach California Temple. Thanks, Bahooka (talk) 23:37, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

WikiProject X is live![edit]

WikiProject X icon.svg

Hello everyone!

You may have received a message from me earlier asking you to comment on my WikiProject X proposal. The good news is that WikiProject X is now live! In our first phase, we are focusing on research. At this time, we are looking for people to share their experiences with WikiProjects: good, bad, or neutral. We are also looking for WikiProjects that may be interested in trying out new tools and layouts that will make participating easier and projects easier to maintain. If you or your WikiProject are interested, check us out! Note that this is an opt-in program; no WikiProject will be required to change anything against its wishes. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you!

Note: To receive additional notifications about WikiProject X on this talk page, please add this page to Wikipedia:WikiProject X/Newsletter. Otherwise, this will be the last notification sent about WikiProject X.

Harej (talk) 16:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)


There is currently a discussion about whether/how to include Latter Day Saint movement and Jehovah's Witnesses on Template:Christianity here. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:49, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Template talk:LDS sects/Mormon fundamentalist[edit]

I've been thinking of doing a modification of Template talk:LDS sects/Mormon fundamentalist. However it being such a big change, I though I would seek some input before making the change. If anyone is interested in commenting, I would love to here from anyone at Template_talk:LDS_sects/Mormon_fundamentalist#Unweildy.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 22:28, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Book:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints[edit]

Members of this WikiProject and other interested parties may be may be interested to know about the discussion taking place at Talk:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints#Related Wikipedia Books and Book talk:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Asterisk*Splat 19:57, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Template:JSJ navfooter[edit]

Would anyone have an issue with Template:JSJ navfooter being deleted? It doesn't appear to be in use, and is redundant to Template:Joseph Smith anyway. Asterisk*Splat 02:02, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Possible wikisource activity[edit]

If anyone were interested in doing the final proofreading/verifying of the books at s:Index:A dictionary of the Book of Mormon.pdf and s:Index:Pearl Of Great Price (1851).pdf, in accord with the guidelines over there for "verifying" texts, I could have both of them finished. Unfortunately, I am myself unable to do anything more with finishing them as the person who brought them through the "proofread" stage over there, except perhaps for breaking the various subsections into separate pages, which I would be more than willing to do at the end of the verification. Particularly for the first one, it might be useful to have separate pages somewhere in the WMF for all the major characters and topics of the Book of Mormon, particularly material in the public domain which can be used here verbatim if necessary with the proper attribution. "Verifying" actually isn't all that hard, but it would be of course good to familiarize oneself with the s:Help:Beginner's guide to Wikisource and particularly s:Help:Beginner's guide to validation first. And I would particularly ask that the redlinks in the pages be kept, as those are what I will link to the various separate pages for each article which I will create when the final verification is done. John Carter (talk) 19:32, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Dubious image of Miriam Works Young[edit]

Miriam Works Young was Brigham Young's first wife. I have posted several problems with her image over at File talk:Miriam A. Works.jpg#Dubious. This is admittedly original research on my part, and not even very good research, but I would appreciate any direction on this. I think there are pretty clear reasons why this is not an image of Miriam Works Young, and I don't know what should be done about that. Thanks! ——Rich jj (talk) 19:11, 2 March 2015 (UTC)