Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history

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CfD Category:Former_military_equipment_of_the_Philippines[edit]


All the best: Rich Farmbrough01:28, 10 September 2014 (UTC).

Infobox flag icons[edit]

Is it OK for country flag icons to be used in the infoboxes of military units? Both WP:INFOBOXFLAG and WP:MILMOS#FLAGS say that such usage is generally not recommended. Although some articles do not use icons, I've noticed that many others, particularly American military units, do use icons. I'm not proposing either a mass removal or a mass addition of icons per se; I am just wondering is somebody is able to clarify the meaning of "generally" as it applies to these particular articles. Thanks in advance. -Marchjuly (talk) 00:53, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
Ps: Just to add on to the above, I've noticed some articles using {{flag|United States}} and others using {{flag|United States of America}}. Is it OK to have two different styles? The later links to United States of America which is a redirect to United States. - Marchjuly (talk) 01:01, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

overuse is a serious issue. Some editors want to use flagicons in the allegiance, unit AND commander fields, among others. This would clearly be overkill. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 10:25, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
I quite like the idea of extinguishing them from infoboxes. Keith-264 (talk) 11:17, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
Thanks Peacemaker67 and Keith-264 for the replies. Not looking to "exterminate", "exterminate", "exterminate" anything. Just was curious. They seem to be being slowly phased out in other articles, but I wonder if they are being added/kept in military-related articles for patriotic reasons. Anyway, opinions on the "United States" vs. "United States of America" for the country name of US military units. - Marchjuly (talk) 12:14, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
Personally, I would think that "United States" would be enough. Who is going to think it is intended to be the "United States of Tara"? Eh? Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 12:18, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps in a multi-national unit, there might be use as a short hand for identifying a commander's origin. GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:18, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I started dropping flag icons from my Australian military bios and unit histories a year or two ago and the world didn't end... I think you'll find that simply "United States" and "US" is the preferred/common term on WP, rather than "United States of America" or "USA". Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:21, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes. Where it is, in fact, a multi-national unit or formation, not a national formation contained a few non-national units. The current "British Empire" "dealio" used widely in WWI articles is a farce, and doesn't reflect the legislative or real basis of the command and control of dominion and colonial formations of the so-called "British Empire". All I can see with this stuff is a predominance of British Empire POV, contemporary or current. Fortunately, I don't really give a rat's proverbial, but those who care will carry on with their arrant nonsense nonetheless. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 12:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I'm wondering if WP:COMMONNAME should take precedence over WP:NOTBROKEN with respect to "United States of America". On the other hand, there may be some who argue "COMMONNANE" only applies to article titles. Maybe WP:NOTUSA could be extended to not "United States of America" since using "U.S. of A." is not recommended. - Marchjuly (talk) 12:55, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

What's a dealio?Keith-264 (talk) 19:12, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment I'm inclined to believe that they are not needed in the infobox and that they serve no useful encyclopedic purpose. I would be in favor of exterminating them in the infoboxes and then updating MOS:FLAG to reflect this change.--JOJ Hutton 20:48, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
  • That page largely says to that in the "Avoid flag icons in infoboxes" section (WP:INFOBOXFLAG) now. -Fnlayson (talk) 22:05, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
    • Yes, yes it does. But enforcement of this guideline has been very difficult over the years. Especially in certain sports info boxes. I've never been in favor of them in the info box at any level. I don't really see the encyclopedic value in them. JOJ Hutton 22:47, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
Using {{flag|United States of America}} is more than a matter of taste. It also creates an unnecessary redirect, so unless there is a reason the use "United States of America", it shouldn't be used. As for exterminating the flags, I'd guess that "generally" in the directions may reflect the lack of consensus. Seems to me that those editing US articles favor them, while those in the UK. et al. disfavor them. --Lineagegeek (talk) 23:25, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
What's a dealio?Keith-264 (talk) 08:41, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
schema. Just me engaging in an offtopic rant... Forget it. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 08:57, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
Rant away, I was enjoying it. ;O)Keith-264 (talk) 10:00, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── WP:INFOBOXFLAG clearly state that flag icons aren't to be used in Template:Infobox Weapon, but I've been finding them in dozens of articles. (Most of the discussion above is about their use in bio article, which is more ambiguous.) Can someone set up a bot or something to go through the articles using Infobox Weapon and remove the flags? I've been doing it manually for several weeks as I find them, but it seems to never end. Thanks. - BilCat (talk) 15:12, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

2014 "Attacks"[edit]

There is currently discussion at Talk:2014 Jerusalem synagogue massacre about what noun to use in the title to describe the attack or massacre or whatever. The word "attack" is used in the title of some other recent events, but I think it would be useful if anyone here who knows how more broadly historical sources describe similar, older events were to comment about what names "history books" give such events. John Carter (talk) 01:04, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Along the lines of superfluous statistics...[edit]

The Siege of Godesberg had nearly 34000 hits on 11-18-2014, when it was a Featured Article. And in the last 30 days, about 44,0000.  :) auntieruth (talk) 16:58, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Nice work! Nick-D (talk) 23:46, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
Great job, Ruth! Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 10:37, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Please help an article achieve GA status[edit]

The article Russo-Georgian War is currently undergoing a GA review. Any editors that can help address the concerns of the reviewer should go to that article and help out. Thanks! RGloucester 17:24, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Expert attention[edit]

This is a notice about The West Tennessee Raids, which might be of interest to your WikiProject. Can someone take a look to see if it can be knocked into shape? Bikeroo (talk) 14:56, 23 November 2014 (UTC)


One of my personal projects is extracting public-domain images from the Library of Congress's massive archive of pre-1923 newspapers, and last night I found a 1904 newspaper which printed pictures of various ships of the Imperial Russian and Imperial Japanese Navies, along with their specifications ("in view of the almost certain outbreak of hostilities between Russia and Japan in the Orient, some information concerning the naval strength of the two powers will be of interest at this time"). I've uploaded the highest-resolution versions of the images that I was able to extract, and transcribed the specifications, but there's one problem.

This isn't a photograph of a Japanese battleship, but I'm pretty sure it's derived from a photograph; does anyone know what this type of image is called?

Since the source of the images was an American newspaper in 1904, some of the names were translated into English. I figured out that "Thunderer" was Russian cruiser Gromoboi and "Three Saints" was Russian battleship Tri Sviatitelia, but what was the "Japanese Battleship Chin Yen"? (see image) My best guess is the Chinese turret ship Zhenyuan, but the specifications provided don't really match the ones in our article about it... but it's definitely possible that the Tacoma Times was less-than-accurate... but I'm reluctant to be the one who makes that assessment. Anyone? DS (talk) 16:18, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

I am no expert on ships but Commons has what appears to be he original photograph your drawing was taken from identified as "Zhenyuan (aka Chin-yen) ironclad" and it is used on the Japanese and Russian articles for the Zhenyuan. I have reproduced it here - Dumelow (talk) 16:40, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes, that's correct - Zhenyuan was taken into Japanese service following the First Sino-Japanese War as Chin Yen. I'm actually in the process of writing the Dingyuan-class ironclad article (and will be rewriting the individual ship articles as well) and of course would like to have more images with clear copyright statuses. Parsecboy (talk) 14:04, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Finland's Status during world war two[edit]

Your opinions would be most welcome regarding a dispute on whether or not Finland should lumped together and listed as a member of the Axis rather than listed as a separate co-belligerent on the World War Two page. See the discussion here Talk:World_War_II#Anti-Finnish_biasXavierGreen (talk) 23:02, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

The Axis was not an informal arrangement--it was a formal treaty relationship that Finland never joined or signed. It had zero ties to Japan & Italy. I have not seen any RS that consider it to be part of the Axis. Rjensen (talk) 01:06, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
Rjensen do you think the explanation at Axis powers#Minor co-belligerent state combatants is a good way to present the facts?/ -- Moxy (talk) 01:35, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
yes i think so. It should make clear that Finland never signed any Axis treaty. Rjensen (talk) 01:58, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
Finland's status is unique, but no more unique than any other power on the German side. She wasn't a signatory of the Tripartite Pact, but the Tripartite Pact powers were only simultaneously at war with Britian and the United States from December 1941 until September 1944, and were never all at war with the Soviet Union at once. (The Tripartite Pact had nothing to do with how any of its signatories entered the war, so far as I can tell.) Finland was at war with both Britain and the Soviet Union before Bulgaria was at war with anybody. Finland did sign the Anti-Comintern Pact of 1941, the only other non-Axis or non-Axis-occupied countries to sign being Turkey and (non-neutral) Spain. Also, a small Italian naval unit served under Finnish command on Lake Ladoga. Finland allowed the SS to recruit Finns for its Wiking unit, and Hungarian officers were trained at her winter warfare school along with German ones. In 1944 the United States threatened to declare war on her, and Finland "exited the war" the same way and at the same time as Romania and Bulgaria. Thailand was also unequivocally at war with Britain and not a signatory of the Tripartite Pact. Srnec (talk) 03:24, 28 November 2014 (UTC)


That is all. I have two volumes of the Illustrated War News that arrived today. They're amazing - packed with images, at least a third of which will blow any alternative out of the water. -Adam Cuerden (talk) 13:42, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

You're an odd duck, Adam - I can only hope some of my German warships are included ;) Parsecboy (talk) 14:07, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Action of 15 October 1917[edit]

Could I get some opinions on whether this is actually worthy of an article? If this sort of encounter is all the requirement needed for an article, then surely any event when a vessel is lost in action must also warrant an article given the greater significance of the event (especially as no vessels were lost in this article). Wouldn't it be more typical to see this information in the vessel's articles? Given the state of the article I'm tempted to AFD it. And how on earth does it result in an American victory? Ranger Steve Talk 15:41, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Hmm. I'm no expert on WWI naval history, but I'm not finding many secondary sources mentioning it when I'm carrying out the usual pulls. I'm not convinced its notable myself. Hchc2009 (talk) 15:46, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
AFD as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise every single U-boat/target surface engagement is notable.
Neither combatant sunk nor captured, a single fatality. Were it not for the Medal of Honor given to that sailor (Osmond Ingram), this incident would be very unremarkable. Suggest using any content to build up the vessel articles and the Ingram article if necessary, and AfD the article itself. GraemeLeggett (talk) 19:46, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
Definitely not an article in and of itself. Add to article on Ingram, yes, and to the article on the Cassin (if there is one). auntieruth (talk) 20:30, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
And to SM U-61 - it certainly doesn't need an article to itself though. Parsecboy (talk) 20:59, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
Probably worth pointing out Action of 17 November 1917 - created by the same editor (a banned sock, incidentally). Parsecboy (talk) 21:10, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
And Action of 4 May 1917 and Action of 8 May 1918. There are probably others out there created by other socks. Parsecboy (talk) 21:12, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Action of 17 November 1917 claims "The Fanning and Nicholson '​s sinking of U-58 was one of only a few engagements of World War I in which U.S. Navy warships sank an enemy submarine." - if that's true, that one might be worth keeping. It seems a bit better developed than the others as well. But I'm not really an expert on WWI, really. Honestly, I'm kind of learning as I go. Adam Cuerden (talk) 21:59, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm lucky enough to be working on a big First World War at sea project at the moment, and this 'action' falls near to the project area, hence my interest. From the numerous records I've consulted at The National Archives, there were far more significant actions happening all around the globe. Lots of these have more than sufficient published sources to construct articles, but this one appears to have nothing specific on it. Nor for that matter do the rest (that I can find). A much better example of a significant encounter between a U-boat and a ship would be the case of HMS Dunraven which saw 2 VCs and a Blue Max awarded.
I'll put these 4 articles up for AFD then, with a note on the possible significance of 17 November 1917. Ranger Steve Talk 11:46, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Pity: image for that one is great. But then, could always merge some of these in with their ships/subs/Zeppelins. 17 November, especially, would bulk up a stuon SM U-58 - and, as a bonusx, merging can be done without an AFD. Adam Cuerden (talk) 10:26, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

IP assessments (again)[edit]

Hello MILHIST, an IP just assessed Otto I, an article I have recently edited and (hopefully) improved. Checking the IPs history, this review was done in < 1 minute, together with several other MILHIST-related articles. Apparently a user from the same IP-address already had problems with disruptive editing in the past. Could a MILHIST-member please double-check this assessment on the article's talkpage? I am not sure, if such "drive-by" assessments should be accepted - they are probably well-intended, but not really accurate or helpful for article contributors. But of course that's for the project to decide. Thank you for your help. GermanJoe (talk) 20:25, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

    • I agree these partial assessments look like cookie cutter jobs aimed at little more than reducing backlogs. I've assessed it. That some references are missing is apparent. There seem to be unresolved issues on the talk page (like the conversion of Harald Bluetooth) so B-2=no as well. Lineagegeek (talk) 22:48, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
      • Thank you for looking into that. The Danish conversion question is a minor aspect considering the scope of this article. I'll need to work on that section anyway for more references, and will try to find a better solution to present the available information (the current version is by far the more reliable, but needs sourcing and background). A peer review is currently underway, and may provide even more good ideas. GermanJoe (talk) 23:21, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Image notification[edit]

Just wanted to let y'all know, in case you're interested, that commons:Category:Photographs by the Korean Ministry of Defense is now available. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  05:51, 27 November 2014 (UTC)


FYI, I've proposed a rename and reorganization of articles at Talk:Battle of Sinop -- (talk) 08:08, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

looks like a lack of understanding of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC to me. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 10:35, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Quick opinion requested[edit]

Hi folks! I'd like someone more knowledgeable than myself to have a quick look at three new creations by UC1 Freya, Rocket Madsen Space Lab & UC2 Kraka. I don't know if they need deletion, merge/redirect or if they should be kept and improved; if the articles stay, they need some minor cleanup, categories, talk page banners and the like. Have fun, and thanks! :) ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  10:28, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

You can build your own sea-going submarine in Denmark?! Not as good as the New Zealander who built his own cruise missile (apparently entirely legally), but close. I agree that these articles need much stronger sourcing to be retained. Nick-D (talk) 10:37, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
The articles have also been created, it seems, by Peter Madsen (inventor) himself, according to the unblock-un request of ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  20:22, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
Do they need advice about conflict of interest and secondary sourcing. I tagged UC1 Freya as needing independent sourcing. GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:25, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

OR and RS issues on Vietnam War articles[edit]

Gday. An unregistered user using a range of IPs (including and, possibly others) has made a number of edits to various Vietnam War articles comparing reported NVA/VC losses to weapons captured and using that to infer the inaccuracy of US claims (which of course have been widely questioned). The issue though is that whilst references are provided which support the reported losses and the number of weapons captured, the linking of the two in the manner that is occurring is problematic and is unsupported by the reference provided. This appears to me to be WP:OR or possibly WP:SYNTH. Equally, in some edits seemingly unreliable sources are being added such as this [1]. I have posted on the IPs various talk pages here [2] and here [3] and will discuss with them if they are prepared too but I'm logging off now for the next 24 hours so would be grateful for more eyes to look over these articles and help guide them if required. Some of the articles in question are as fols: Battle of Prek Klok II, Operation Union, Operation Medina, Battle of Hill 881, Operation Prairie, Operation Hastings, Operation Buffalo (1967), Operation Swift, Operation Kingfisher, Operation Junction City, First Battle of Quảng Trị and Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21. Thanks. Anotherclown (talk) 12:37, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Stray articles[edit]

While I was having a rest from longish articles, I filled in a lot of red links for the Battle of the Somme and a few stray articles, some of which I stumbled on, which were expanded, merged (or deleted) and then linked in campaignboxes etc. I had a look too at lists - articles missing B-class criteria for e.g., which turned up a few like this Winter operations 1914–1915 and saved accidental duplication. If anyone has seen other western front articles 1914-1917 which have been becalmed for ages, I'd be grateful for a link here User talk:Keith-264 to check if I've got them on my list or suggestions of lists and other places to look. ThanksKeith-264 (talk) 11:00, 28 November 2014 (UTC)