Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rivers

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WikiProject Rivers (Rated Project-class)
WikiProject icon This page is within the scope of WikiProject Rivers, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Rivers on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
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CfD on Category:Rivers of the Boundary Ranges etc[edit]

See Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2014_April_17#Category:Rivers_of_the_Boundary_Ranges on the Categories for discussion page.

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal[edit]

Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:48, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Colorado River TFA[edit]

I'm currently running Colorado River for Today's featured article. Anyone recall when the last river-related article was featured? Comments are welcome. Shannon 13:41, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Willamette River, in which you had a hand, ran on September 1, 2013. There might have been others since then. Finetooth (talk) 20:41, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, that's the most recent one I remember. I checked the TFAs for the last 4 months and didn't see any river articles... then again I might have missed one... Shannon 22:43, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Project participants list[edit]

The project participants list appears to contain a significant number of inactive project members, and lacks means to conveniently identify active participants' areas of interest and recent contributions. I have appended a hidden draft alternative listing for discussion. As examples, I have tentatively added potential areas of interest where user pages provided information; but I would encourage individual users to replace my guesses with better focused statements before publication if this format is considered suitable. I request feedback concerning use of the alternative format. Thewellman (talk) 04:12, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Neatly done, looks like an improvement to me - and will help find others with similar interests...Jokulhlaup (talk) 16:58, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Hydrography resources for BC and Canada[edit]

I happened to find a few things linked through the main BC Names/GeoBC page last night, where sizes of water basins, lengths of streams, elevation data for lakes and streams, flow rates etc can all be found/cited; I haven't explored these fully, just dropping the links for others to have as a resource when working on lake/river articles:

Thanks, Skookum1, for the helpful list. Finetooth (talk) 15:33, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
Some of what's above is already part of Geomatics BC, which you will also find linked somewhere on what used to be called the Ministry of Forests Library, now the J.T. Fyles Natural Resources Library. There will be more rivers material within various ministry resources linked here; of what's available to the public, that is.Skookum1 (talk) 11:39, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Need help identifying if a river is real[edit]

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kazipur River is discussing whether this is a real river or if this is a hoax. There is a town with the same name next to the Jamuna River, which has a whole lot of distributaries in this area, so that could be a place to start looking. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 20:47, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Need help with formatting[edit]

A recent edit (not sure what) broke the coords in the geobox formatting on Colorado River... I'm still not good with HTML so can someone help me? Shannon 00:23, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

  • I'm stumped, but I wonder if this edit to Geobox on Oct. 24th could have inadvertently broken something? It's in proximity to some coordinates-handling stuff. Apologies if that's a false lead... Malepheasant (talk) 00:57, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
I fixed the problem by reverting the last edit, the one that linked William Culp Darrah. I don't know how the linking could be related to the geobox formatting. I see no logical connection. However, the geobox mess occurred during the linking edit. Finetooth (talk) 03:16, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Yeah the only diff I could associate with the format weirdness was the one with the wikilink, that's why I was perplexed. I might as well try linking it again, to see what happens. Show preview isn't displaying it, I can only hope the problem is gone permanently... Shannon 03:53, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

"Tributaries of..." categories[edit]

I noticed a big push (on the part of just one editor, I think, at least presently) to fill out/organize a bunch of "Tributaries of..." categories in the U.S., in a way that seems kind of problematic to me. The result has been that categories named "Tributaries of the BBB River" are being treated as though they're named "Rivers in the BBB River watershed" (or "Rivers in the BBB River drainage basin"), and the rivers categorized accordingly, including what I would call "indirect tributaries." So Category:Tributaries of the Mississippi River includes tributaries of the St. Croix River, tributaries of the Iowa River, tributaries of tributaries of those rivers, etc.

For me, when I read that River A is a "tributary of River D," I just naturally assume it to mean that River A flows directly into River D — not that the phrase actually means River A is a tributary of River B, which is a tributary of River C, which is a tributary of River D. I wonder if anybody else finds this latter application of these categories problematic and/or unclear for readers? Thanks-- Malepheasant (talk) 00:00, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

My understanding of "tributary" is exactly like yours, Malepheasant. A basic geology book in my personal library defines tributary as a "small stream flowing into a large stream, adding water to the large stream". An even smaller stream flowing into the small stream would be a tributary of the small stream but not a tributary of the large stream. Finetooth (talk) 03:47, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
  • For the longest of times, WP has had both direct and indirect tributaries in tributary categories--none of which I see specifies 'direct tributaries only'. These is because all the requisite tributary categories for each river have not been created and many will never be created as there are two few articles to justify such categories for the many smaller rivers. That does not change the physical fact that rivers have both direct and indirect tributaries. This is shown also in WP lists, where both direct and indirect tributaries of river x are included, not just the direct ones. The purpose of categories is to help provide reader navigation to articles and having both direct and indirect do so. Of course, a further level of categorization could be added: "Direct tributaries of xx river" and "Indirect tributaries of xx river" if that is needed for clarity--but no one has done so for any river that I know of. Hmains (talk) 04:23, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
    • Another way to go is "Hydrography of the Fraser River basin", for example, with maybe subcats for rivers and lakes and whatever else. NB in some cases the main river changes name when two major tribs meet e.g. the Taku River, and each trib is similar, the name changes at the confluence where they "begin". I think there's a sort-of-basin cat for the Columbia River, but there we do have an article Columbia Basin also.Skookum1 (talk) 05:11, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
      • I favor basin categories over tributary categories despite well-meaning, but inappropriately broad historical use of the tributary categorization scheme. Hydrography categorization by basin should avoid ambiguity about appropriate inclusion of variously named still-water features such as the Great Lakes within the Saint Lawrence River basin hydrography; although I would favor subcategorization by basin rather than naming convention. (subcategories Hydrography of the Lake Superior basin and Hydrography of the Saguenay River basin in preference to subcategories Rivers of the Saint Lawrence River basin and Lakes of the Saint Lawrence River basin) Coordination with WikiProject Lakes is important.
The issue of unnecessary subcategories for insignificantly small basins (or x-order tributaries) is independent of which term is selected, and might be addressed by specifying a minimum surface area and/or flow. Thewellman (talk) 15:39, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
German Wikipedia has a structured way of handling this. The primary river has a category called "Foo basin". All rivers within its catchment are then grouped by Strahler stream order using the format [[Category:Foo basin|2Little Foo]] in the article category. An example category is at de:Kategorie:Flusssystem Humber where, in addition to the streams grouped by number, other waterbodies are grouped by letter e.g. lakes are "S" (for "See"). If the category becomes too large, then all the tributaries get their own basin category with this structure. This makes it very clear where the streams and lakes etc fit into the hydrography. I think they can even automate the categories from the infobox. And they have a ready-made structure we can just copy. I have translated and trialled an English version here: Category:Selke basin --Bermicourt (talk) 18:33, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Whatever else is done, such categories should never named with the word 'hydrology' in them. Hydrology is for science category trees where the science word hydrology would be known and understood. It is not for geography category trees where the normal reader would never have heard of hydrology but would hopefully know tributary, a common word. On the matter of 'basin'. What has been used in the English WP and especially US articles is tributary, not basin, for unknown reasons, though both could presumably exist for a river (why?). Someone would have come up with really good reasons to use basin instead of tributaries this late date, with the mass changes that would entail. As far ordering the subcategories (tributaries) by their hydrology (location on the river), this would break the normal WP category ordering of alphabetical and would again be problematic for the ordinary reader. The tributary list articles are where such location ordering is provided, not subcategories. In other words, don't make things already more complicated for the ordinary readers (and editors) than they already are. WP is not a place for just specialists and experts. Hmains (talk) 04:18, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
    • Part of the problem is that "basin" is more often referred to as "watershed" in American English but that has a different meaning in British English. Rmhermen (talk) 05:44, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
      • In Canada and the US, "basin" can also be a landform that has little to do with the watershed concept, e.g. the Fraser Basin is a landform within the Nechako Plateau which is a lower-level set of terrain flanking the Fraser and its tributaries. focussed on the Nechako-Fraser confuence at the city of Prince George; in the same way "Fraser Valley" is not used for the whole valley/basin of that river, but only for the region flanking its last 80 miles or so before the sea. "Columbia Basin" similarly has a geographic meaning that's somewhat different from the hydrographic sense of that phrase.Skookum1 (talk) 06:00, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
2nd - Whatever term is used, subcategories would still be ordered or listed alphabetically. The choice involves the subcategorization scheme. In the case of the Mississippi River, for example, the Ohio and Missouri Rivers might be subcategories of the Mississippi River, while the Tennessee and Wabash Rivers might be subcategories of the Ohio River, and the White and Tippecanoe Rivers might be subcategories of the Wabash River. This subcategorization by water body listed as the discharge point would be similar to biological categorization of species as a subcategory of genus, genus as a subcategory of family, and family as a subcategory of order. Thewellman (talk) 07:30, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
    • Wikipedia has a robust infrastructure for handling the renaming of categories, so I don't think the 'mass changes' would be problematic if a new naming system were settled upon, and I think it's good to discuss the matter here before trying to come up with a renaming proposal.
I don't think 'hydrography' is such a terribly difficult or obscure term that it couldn't be used, particularly when linked from the category description. And I think that the really good reason for considering a change to the name is that the current naming scheme doesn't align well with general usage of the term 'tributary,' and even has potential for being (unintentionally!) misleading to readers unfamiliar with a particular river: To have the Straight River in the category Category:Tributaries of the Mississippi River is to construct an implied statement that "the Straight River is a tributary of the Mississippi River," which clashes a bit with the first sentence of the article: "The Straight River is a tributary of the Fish Hook River..." A category that contains all the same articles but has a different name could solve this problem.
The U.S./British/Canadian differences in 'watershed'/'basin' usage might be solved by using 'drainage basin,' which conveniently is the name of the article about the topic.
I think the German non-alphabetic presentation is a separate issue from the names of the categories (and I suspect there would be strong pushback if there were an effort to implement it on English Wikipedia.) --Malepheasant (talk) 13:03, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
AFAIK there is no difference in UK/US usage of "basin" in the sense of "river basin", so adding "drainage" is superfluous (it's "watershed" that's used differently). The difference between a "Tributaries of Foo" category and a "Foo basin" category is that the latter can include all waterbodies e.g. lakes, ponds, canals, bogs and marshes, reservoirs and so on, as well as rivers. But there needn't be a preference; both are useful. Bermicourt (talk) 17:38, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
User:Skookum1 offered a few examples of such differences above.--Malepheasant (talk) 22:54, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
here's quite a few more.Skookum1 (talk) 02:47, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
"no difference between the UK/US usage" is patently wrong, and gee, doncha know that not all of the anglosphere is UK/US English??? And re US usage, search GNIS for "basin" and you'll get over 2000..... few which would match your claim.Skookum1 (talk) 02:52, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
I was about to start a topic on this until I stumbled across this discussion... seems like you got it mostly sorted out. I personally find it much easier to stick with the direct tributaries definition. For example Category:Tributaries of the Colorado River is a mess, with tributaries of the Green and San Juan rivers (large rivers which deserve – and have – their own subcategories) duplicated under the larger umbrella category. Granted, this particular category largely predates the tributaries categorization spree we had a while ago, but it stands as a good example of what not to do.
There should really be an overhaul of the whole thing, and while I do understand that many smaller streams would not deserve a category of their own, it really should be the way to go, so as to reduce confusion. Perhaps the rule should be that if the river/stream has at least 2 direct tributaries with their own articles, a category should be created. As the system currently stands one cannot tell whether the North Fork Little Snake River is a tributary of the Little Snake River, the Yampa River, the Green River or the Colorado River. Shannon 14:43, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
A potential disadvantage of limiting tributary subcategories to those with two articles may arise where rivers above and below natural lakes have different names, in contrast to dams where the previous naming generally prevails both upstream and downstream of the reservoir. A subcategorization guideline requiring multiple articles might be discontinuous for natural drainages passing sequentially through a number of lakes arranged similarly to the Great Lakes. A smaller example is the flow through Bear River, Long Lake, Chute River, Brandy Pond, Songo River, Sebago Lake, and Presumpscot River. Thewellman (talk) 17:41, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
In that case I wonder if it would be appropriate to treat the lake itself as a tributary; as a means of categorization it makes sense, e.g. Long Lake would be categorized as a tributary of the Chute River, which would then be classed as a tributary of Brandy Pond, and so on. I can see this setup becoming far too complex so I get what you mean. In that case, for small rivers/creeks, the category would be titled as "Tributaries in the Chute River basin" instead of "Tributaries of the Chute River", the former having the added clarification that it includes both direct and indirect tributaries. On a related note this could be used to create umbrella categories for much larger river systems, e.g. "Tributaries in the Columbia Basin", which would accomplish what User:Hmains also brought up in the 2nd comment. Shannon 07:34, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
This dual category approach would get my support, if the word basin is still a problem, could I suggest "Tributaries in the Foo River system" as an alternative...Jokulhlaup (talk) 17:10, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
As an aside, basin is only problematic if it doesn't have drainage or river as a qualifier, since there are geologic basins as well. As far as I'm concerned any of Foo Drainage Basin, Foo River Basin, or Foo River System would all do just fine. Kmusser (talk) 17:52, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
The dual approach looks logical and efficient to me too. Foo River System might be most clear to readers unfamiliar with the concept of "drainage basin". In cases where the river changes names from Boo to Moo to Foo, the lowermost main stem (the Foo) would be the name of the system, yes? Finetooth (talk) 18:15, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes, though I'd make exceptions if another name is significantly more well known, for example I'd use Ganges for the Ganges, even though the lowermost main stem would actually be Padma.Kmusser (talk) 18:26, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
I don't support "river system" or "river basin" as they don't seem to be the usual geographical terms according to my sources. Neither appear in Whittow's Dictionary of Physical Geography, for instance, whereas "basin" and "drainage basin" do. I'd suggest either of the latter, leaving it open to editors to prefer drainage basin where there is a likilihood of confusion. Also I wonder if the plethora of terms is partly due to regional differences, in which case Wikipedia recognises that we can have regional preferences. For example, do UK editors prefer "catchment area" and do US/Canadian colleagues prefer "watershed", for example? --Bermicourt (talk) 18:29, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
Choosing between drainage basin and watershed I'd go with drainage basin. Watershed is more common in the U.S., but drainage basin is used commonly as well and I don't think would cause confusion. I do think you'd need to use drainage basin vs basin to distinguish against other types of basins (and that's not a US/UK thing, UK has other types of basins too, e.g. London Basin). Kmusser (talk) 18:40, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
Another point against "river basin" that I just noticed - e.g. Powder River Basin. Geologists, why do you do this? Kmusser (talk) 18:47, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
  • I favor drainage basin or watershed over river basin or river system because the river prefix might be perceived as limiting categorical integration of lake (and sea, bay, or ocean) watersheds. Thewellman (talk) 20:12, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
  • I haven't been very active with rivers lately, but my first choice would be for drainage basin. Second choice is watershed. Third choice is river system (I think it can be explained somewhere that such river system categories include any types hydrological features). I don't think river basin works well, due to ambiguity with features such as Powder River Basin. olderwiser 21:57, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
I still don't think we need to always prefer "drainage basin" over "basin" for 2 reasons. First, a topographical basin would be capitalised e.g. "Foo Basin"; second, any confusion is probably minimal in reality, as there are nowhere near as many topographical basins as river basins and topographical basins (e.g. London Basin, Poole Basin, Dresden Basin, Chicago Basin etc) are unlikely to be confused with river basins anyway - they're well known and/or named after towns. So let's consider both as acceptable and let editors use commonsense to decide if adding "drainage" to "basin" is needed in a particular case to avoid confusion. Bermicourt (talk) 22:14, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
I think there are advantages to consistency. And certainly including "drainage" eliminates most ambiguity and avoids any need for case-by-case discussions. olderwiser 22:29, 7 November 2014 (UTC) PS, and for what it's worth, with the exception of London Basin, I think the other "topographical" basins you mention can quite easily confused with drainage basins. The articles even describe them as watersheds. olderwiser 22:32, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────uh, not the case of Columbia Basin the lede paragraphs point out that "In common usage, the term often refers to a smaller area, generally the portion of the drainage basin that lies within eastern Washington. Usage of the term "Columbia Basin" in British Columbia generally refers only to the immediate basins of the Columbia and Kootenay Rivers and excludes that of the Okanagan, Kettle and Similkameen Rivers." The Mackenzie drainage basin, like the Columbia and certain others, is so large and with different names along its main course, and large sub-watersheds each distinct from the rest (e.g. the Omineca and Finlay), that "Mackenzie basin" is too unwieldy (and hm may also refer to an oil and gas basin - another main use of "basin" - so some tiering, as in how mountain ranges are category-tiered as they must be for navigability and also re their actual formal toponymic structure...... and of the search from BC Names in the one link, many of those are alpine basins, i.e. upper bowls of the terrain, and others are marine features of the port/harbour variety. Somewhere on Talk:Columbia River may be a discussion about the use of Category:Columbia River re the river's whole watershed/basin being included (as to why there is no Category:Columbia Basin.Skookum1 (talk) 03:50, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Okay, we're both positing different points of view which is fine, we're entitled to. But Wikipedia policy is to base naming on the sources. Taking the world's longest rivers and some longest regional rivers as examples the statistics from Google books are:

Nile Basin: 79,700; Nile Drainage Basin 910. Factor of 88 to 1
Amazon Basin: 265,000; Amazon Drainage Basin 4,700. Factor of 56 to 1
Yangtze Basin: 12,100; Yangtze Drainage Basin 420. Factor of 29 to 1
Mississippi Basin: 98,000; Mississippi Drainage Basin 34,400. Factor of 3 to 1
Murray-Darling Basin: 42,500; Murray-Darling Drainage Basin 272. Factor of 156 to 1.
Mackenzie Basin: 29,600; Mackenzie Drainage Basin 1,430. Factor of 21 to 1.
The most common name in every case, by a massive majority in most cases, is "Foo Basin" not "Foo Drainage Basin". The exception is US rivers (I have checked others and the results are similar) where there is about a 3 to 1 ratio. This suggests that the use of "drainage basin" is mainly US-centric (even the Canadian river has a 21 to 1 ratio), but even for US rivers, "Foo Basin" is still much more common. Bermicourt (talk) 13:39, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
Myself, I think "Drainage" by itself has problems and definitely "Drainage Basin" is very clunky; and "basin" is the more common term. One rider, as per above, sometimes as with Columbia Basin, it refers to only part of a river's watershed (did you search for "FOO watershed btw?), and in some cases like Fraser Basin it's about something else entirely.... so lower-case 'b' may be the way to go, to differentiate fro formally-named capital-B Basins.Skookum1 (talk) 16:22, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Perhaps clunky is an inevitable consequence of avoiding FOO-centric? Thewellman (talk) 20:45, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
I think it's the other way round. "Drainage basin" is more US-centric (albeit still a minority usage) whereas "basin" seems to be used worldwide. So we can avoid "clunky" and avoid being "Foo-centric". I didn't research "Foo watershed" because as discussed above, it's used in very different ways in different parts of the world. However, to be true to the sources, you're right, we should also look at that. I will when I get time this coming week if that helps...
"Seems to be worldwide" if you're meaning "in wikipedia" could well be because of the imposition of British English on non-anglophone-country titles and categories, no? Even in anglophone countries/titles/categories British English has been imposed as "global standard", as was done with Category:Power stations in Canada. If you're meaning in googlefinds, then where the cites are from is going to make a difference in the same context(s) most usages "FOO valley" is the regular usage, when there are not multiple names for the same river.Skookum1 (talk) 12:05, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
No I mean worldwide on the Internet using Google Books. And AFAIK we don't "impose" regional English on Wikipedia; in fact, where there is common usage across the world with the exception of a region we should prefer the common use. Unless an article is specific to a region; so it's perfectly fine to talk about railroads in the US and railways in India; that's local usage. "Foo valley" is fine; it's but a river valley is not quite the same as a river basin. Bermicourt (talk) 12:21, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

2nd opinion[edit]

I've been trying to create an article on Spring Branch, a tributary of Pine Creek. I have not been able to come up with much and I'm assuming that there is not enough for an article, but I figured there wouldn't be any harm in asking for a second opinion. What I have so far is at User:Jakec/Spring Branch (Pine Creek). --Jakob (talk) 21:56, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

  • The article seems a bit short on establishing notability. I usually look through local history to see if I can find any historical significance to the watercourse, through local geology references to see why it flows where it does, and through USEPA documentation to see if the watercourse is used a water supply, has any unique aquatic ecosystems, or has any significant environmental impairment. Thewellman (talk) 23:48, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
  • The additional information is valuable, but doesn't seem to add much to notability. Cold water fisheries are fairly common unless they are regionally rare or unique. Unimpaired watercourses may be regionally notable. I look for comparisons like "largest tributary", "only undammed tributary", "least impaired tributary", "sole water supply", or "unique regional habitat" to establish notability in the lead section. If none of those are immediately obvious, a redirect and merger is certainly appropriate; and the merged material could later be used to expand the redirect into a separate article if new information from additional sources establishes notability. Thewellman (talk) 17:14, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

River naming, esp. in Spain[edit]

There has been a recent rash of undiscussed moves of rivers, especiallly those in Spain that used to be at Río X, to X River, and then to X (river). See for example the history of Palmones (river). It would be hard to argue that these are best known in English sources as just the name X, since no English sources are cited and they're not well known, and in many cases where they do appear they include River or Río in the text. Can we get some clarification of the naming guidelines, perhaps moving more toward more recognizable titles without parenthetic disambiguators? See about 80 recent moves by User:Hmains. Dicklyon (talk) 17:42, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Agree we shouldn't be mass-moving without an analysis of the sources. A quick survey shows that "Rio Foo", "River Foo" and "Foo River" are all used in English sources, but "Foo" on its own less so. As "Rio" is reasonably recognisable in English and seems to form an integral part of the Spanish name, I'm inclined to prefer that for now. --Bermicourt (talk) 18:53, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Since redirects serve the purpose of making the article accessible to users preferring other naming conventions, I favor leaving articles under whichever name was chosen by the individual compiling the greater portion of article content, under the assumption that editor has based the naming decision on comprehensive evaluation of source material. Defaultsort on the name without river/rio prefix or suffix may be appropriate.Thewellman (talk) 20:57, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes as a general principle we shouldn't move things without good reason; but the original article creators are sometimes clueless about WP policy and guidelines, so let's don't presume they got it right. Many of these articles have no sources at all, which argues against the idea that the creator studied sources. In any case, these have all been moved, most twice or more, and we could use clarification of the naming guidelines before moving them again. Dicklyon (talk) 22:19, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
I think that these moves have been done to revert previous moves that have been carried out over a long period of time, which didn't follow WP:NCRIVER. An explanation can be found at User_talk:DagosNavy#Rivers_renamed...Jokulhlaup (talk) 17:06, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
  • P.S. I was doing my renaming (reverts) as the result of a request for help by User:Markussep who was dealing with a another user who was disregarding the original name pattern found in Rivers of Spain and making all the rivers to be named 'xxx River'. With all the changes this uncontrolled user made, I could not always get back to the original names of just 'xxx' and ended up just going back to the last name of 'xxx (river)'. Unless required for disambiguation, I don't think 'xxx (river)' should be the name, but I didn't know how to get the names back to the original names. It should be the case that the naming rules are decided upon first, but this does not seem to have been done in WP. Looking at rivers of various countries, it seems that there are different (undocumented) rules for various countries and no universal rule. Hmains (talk) 06:20, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
WP:NCRIVER is the convention which does allow for some different regional variations e.g. most rivers in the US are "Foo River" whereas most rivers in the UK are "River Foo". In Europe we went for "Foo" and only "Foo (river)" or "Foo (parent)" if dab was needed. --Bermicourt (talk) 22:37, 24 November 2014 (UTC)