Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scotland

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This Talk page is for discussing the core work of the WikiProject, ie. our drive to improve the quality of our key Scotland-related articles, focussing on Wikipedia 1.0 and beyond.

Image requested for the memorial plaque on Sir Andrew Halliday's tomb at Saint Michael's in Dumfries, Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland[edit]

Aloha! I have been working on the Andrew Halliday (physician) article. I understand from a source at Leeds University (right now it is not connecting) that the memorial plaque on his tomb has some interesting information. Since I live on the opposite side of the globe in Hawaiʻi (incidentally, I am a sixteenth Scottish), I am hoping to find a Doonhamer or the like who might be willing to seek out Sir Andrew Halliday's tomb & take a picture of the memorial plaque. His tomb is located at Saint Michael's in Dumfries, Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland. Mahalo! Peaceray (talk) 21:35, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

I checked back with the Summary for the gravestone of Sir Andrew Halliday , & it is back up & viewable now. Peaceray (talk) 03:41, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Popular pages tool update[edit]

As of January, the popular pages tool has moved from the Toolserver to Wikimedia Tool Labs. The code has changed significantly from the Toolserver version, but users should notice few differences. Please take a moment to look over your project's list for any anomalies, such as pages that you expect to see that are missing or pages that seem to have more views than expected. Note that unlike other tools, this tool aggregates all views from redirects, which means it will typically have higher numbers. (For January 2014 specifically, 35 hours of data is missing from the WMF data, which was approximated from other dates. For most articles, this should yield a more accurate number. However, a few articles, like ones featured on the Main Page, may be off).

Web tools, to replace the ones at tools:~alexz/pop, will become available over the next few weeks at toollabs:popularpages. All of the historical data (back to July 2009 for some projects) has been copied over. The tool to view historical data is currently partially available (assessment data and a few projects may not be available at the moment). The tool to add new projects to the bot's list is also available now (editing the configuration of current projects coming soon). Unlike the previous tool, all changes will be effective immediately. OAuth is used to authenticate users, allowing only regular users to make changes to prevent abuse. A visible history of configuration additions and changes is coming soon. Once tools become fully available, their toolserver versions will redirect to Labs.

If you have any questions, want to report any bugs, or there are any features you would like to see that aren't currently available on the Toolserver tools, see the updated FAQ or contact me on my talk page. Mr.Z-bot (talk) (for Mr.Z-man) 05:24, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Template talk:Europe topic[edit]

Some Scottish input is desperately needed on here just now.--MacRùsgail (talk) 12:05, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Invitation to User Study[edit]

Would you be interested in participating in a user study? We are a team at University of Washington studying methods for finding collaborators within a Wikipedia community. We are looking for volunteers to evaluate a new visualization tool. All you need to do is to prepare for your laptop/desktop, web camera, and speaker for video communication with Google Hangout. We will provide you with a Amazon gift card in appreciation of your time and participation. For more information about this study, please visit our wiki page ( If you would like to participate in our user study, please send me a message at Wkmaster (talk) 18:12, 15 March 2014 (UTC).

Shetland, Orkney and the Isles[edit]

I know we have an article specifically on the Lerwick Declaration, but in the light of recent news reports like this, this, and this, do we need a wider new article on moves for greater autonomy and/or referenda in those isles? Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:02, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Questionable edits on census stats at Roman Catholicism in Scotland[edit]

An editor has been adding their own interpretation of Scottish census stats, or putting a different spin on interpretations given in sources, at Roman Catholicism in Scotland. Some of their personal interpretations may have a level of validity (though often they do not) but seem to be aimed at pushing a POV and when neither stated or implied in the sources are OR or SYNTH. Their understanding of the subject also seems somewhat lacking, for instance confusing actual church membership with simply noting religious affiliation on a census form. Their mode of expression is often in need of copyediting or rephrasing. Some other eyes on the article would be appreciated. Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:30, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Just to note, I've only just noticed that an edit conflict resulted in re-insertion of the dubious text, which I have now amended. Mutt Lunker (talk) 18:37, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

AfC submission - 08/04[edit]

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Ui Church - St Columba's Chapel. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 01:16, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Robert Burns Birthplace Museum[edit]

Dear Scotland experts: The above old Afc submission has some information that could be added to the Burns' Cottage article. Should the resulting larger article be named "Burns' Cottage" or "Robert Burns Birthplace Museum"? The draft can be made into a redirect to retain attribution. —Anne Delong (talk) 01:42, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

AfC submission - 27/04[edit]

Articles for creation/The Island Queen. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 17:04, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

GA article being reassessed: Carnoustie[edit]

Carnoustie was reviewed and listed as a Good Article in Sept 2008. The article has been tagged with sourcing concerns since Dec 2009. I have done a GAR, which indicates that the article doesn't meet GA criteria for the WP:Lead, the size and focus, the prose, and sourcing. The main contributor has been notified, though is not able to do any work at the moment. Following the guidelines at Wikipedia:Good article reassessment, this WikiProject is now being informed as the article may be delisted. See Talk:Carnoustie/GA2 for more details. SilkTork ✔Tea time 22:42, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Anyone recognize this tower?[edit]

ManchesterNH SmythTower.jpg

This tower in Manchester, New Hampshire, USA, is described as being a copy of a "famous Scottish lookout tower". It was built in 1888 by Frederick Smyth, who toured Scotland and England in the 1880s. Does anyone here have suggestions as to what tower it might be a copy of? (I didn't spot any obvious candidates in the relevant Commons image category.) Magic♪piano 13:54, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Looks more like a generic pastiche than a specific copy. To further muddy the waters this 1906 source calls the inspiration England rather than Scotland, although our transatlantic cousins are never great at telling the difference. The pebble construction calls to mind the flint buildings of southern England, but you get small lookout towers all over the place. If anything, round ones are more Irish, the Scots tended to go more for square buildings. Le Deluge (talk) 16:58, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
It is somewhat reminiscent of various follies which occur throughout Britain - it doesn't on the face of it have a particularly 'Scottish' feel about it. cheers Geopersona (talk) 18:46, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
Given that none of the sources I've been able to track down are at all specific, I was dubious about it being an actual copy (rather than a pastiche or Yankee re-imagining of something seen somewhere in Britain), but thought I'd ask. I doubt very much Mr. Smyth took measurements... Thanks for your comments. Magic♪piano 20:02, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Wiki Loves Pride 2014[edit]

You are invited to participate in Wiki Loves Pride 2014, a campaign to create and improve LGBT-related content at Wikipedia and its sister projects. The campaign will take place throughout the month of June, culminating with a multinational edit-a-thon on June 21. Meetups are being held in some cities, or you can participate remotely. All constructive edits are welcome in order to contribute to Wikipedia's mission of providing quality, accurate information. Articles within Category:LGBT in Europe may be of particular interest. You can also upload LGBT-related images by participating in Wikimedia Commons' LGBT-related photo challenge. You are encouraged to share the results of your work here. Happy editing! --Another Believer (Talk) 18:49, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Leaflet For Wikiproject Scotland At Wikimania 2014[edit]

Hi all,

My name is Adi Khajuria and I am helping out with Wikimania 2014 in London.

One of our initiatives is to create leaflets to increase the discoverability of various wikimedia projects, and showcase the breadth of activity within wikimedia. Any kind of project can have a physical paper leaflet designed - for free - as a tool to help recruit new contributors. These leaflets will be printed at Wikimania 2014, and the designs can be re-used in the future at other events and locations.

This is particularly aimed at highlighting less discoverable but successful projects, e.g:

• Active Wikiprojects: Wikiproject Medicine, WikiProject Video Games, Wikiproject Film

• Tech projects/Tools, which may be looking for either users or developers.

• Less known major projects: Wikinews, Wikidata, Wikivoyage, etc.

• Wiki Loves Parliaments, Wiki Loves Monuments, Wiki Loves ____

• Wikimedia thematic organisations, Wikiwomen’s Collaborative, The Signpost

For more information or to sign up for one for your project, go to:
Project leaflets
Adikhajuria (talk) 10:44, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Traditional counties advocacy edits?[edit]

This may be a false alarm but I have spotted what may be signs of a new crop of "traditional counties" advocacy edits by a newish editor, User:Zacwill16. I probably will not have time to check this out, certainly not immediately, so if someone else could and act accordingly or call off the alarm as appropriate (and notify the user that they are being discussed perhaps?) I'd be most grateful. Gotta go... Mutt Lunker (talk) 19:07, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

A look at some of the most recent edits, to Dull, Perth and Kinross, Sutherland and The Burryman would appear to confirm this suspicion but the user's edit history points to the likelihood of much more. This kind of thing was last discussed here I think but is there something the editor could be pointed towards regarding policy or consensus and hopefully nip any POV-pushing campaign in the bud? Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:45, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Thomas Affleck (planter)[edit]

Hello. Some of you may be interested in expanding Thomas Affleck (planter)'s page. A Scottish immigrant to the US from Dumfries, he became a prominent plantation owner in Texas, nurseryman, author, etc. I wonder if any of you could find out more about his Scottish ancestry (did he come from an esteemed family in Scotland?); a portrait would also be great. Anyway, I just thought I would mention this here in case anyone is interested. Please only do add more info with inlined references.Zigzig20s (talk) 18:57, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

British Newspaper Archive[edit]

Hey All, just wanted to let everyone know, that we have about 15 more slots available for access to British Newspaper Archive through WP:The Wikipedia Library. If you would like access, apply at WP:BNA. Sadads (talk) 14:41, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Commons uploads of interest from National Library of Scotland[edit]

Hi all,

Just wanted to flag up the content that has recently been uploaded to commons as part of the National Library of Scotland's collaboration with Wikimedia UK. Three batches totalling about 250 images have been released. The photos include images of the construction of the Forth Bridge, the Tay Bridge disaster, and early 19th century sketches of locations around Scotland from John Claude Nattes and James Fittler's Scotia Depicta.

Hopefully some of this content will be of interest or of use to this project!

Cheers, ACrockford (talk) 12:51, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

To add to this, a further 200 images including posters and photographs from the Weir Collection of material relating to late 19th century theatre in Edinburgh and Glasgow have now been uploaded as well, and more content will follow soon. Will keep this talk page updated if that's alright. ACrockford (talk) 12:06, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Is Corryvreckan in the Minch?[edit]

I've been invited to "fuck off moron" in regard to a frankly bizarre debate on the talk page of the Blue men of the Minch article, hingeing on a simple matter of geography. The article is a featured article candidate and contains a significant contradiction which would prove embarrassing when featured on the main page. The debate regards the assertion in the lede that the men are "localised to the Minch, unknown in other parts of Scotland" yet discusses prominently their presence at Corryvreckan, the best part of 100 miles from the Minch. A major contributor to the article is proving aggressively impervious to debate on this point, apparently sufficiently convinced in their belief about the geography that they have refused the invitation to even simply check it at Wikipedia's article on Corryvreckan and the one on the Minch and the map therein. Does (contrary to any documentation I have seen) a definition of the Minch in fact extend as far south as Jura and Scarba (or is Corryvreckan not in fact between these islands)? In that case the Minch or Corryvreckan articles are in serious need of attention. Mutt Lunker (talk) 08:26, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Well, whatever the dispute, it is unacceptable for an editor to make personal insults like that. The editor concerned could be pointed towards reading WP:NPA.
I've had a quick look over the article and it looks to me like it is conflating two mythologies from different geographical locations, the "blue men of the Minch" and the "storm kelpies of Corrievreckan". Since the article in question is about the blue men, I would suggest that material about the storm kelpies should probably be removed, unless a reliable source demonstrates a link between the two, or if such a link can be demonstrated it should clearly be explained in the article. --Deskford (talk) 13:52, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, agree entirely. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:26, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
That's Malleus... He has a particular style of interaction that can be a bit direct, but is a prolific content editor. If you can, try to not take it personally. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 19:44, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Ah, thanks! I hadn't realised who Eric was. That maybe explains things, but doesn't excuse them. I've left a comment over at Talk:Blue men of the Minch calling for calm. I hope it will be heeded. --Deskford (talk) 00:00, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Well I can not take it personally in the sense that there’s clearly no basis for the insults but it’s impossible to be constructive with an editor who will only engage on personal rather than factual terms. If this is typical of elements of the content they produce, and the manner they deal with queries on it, that they are prolific is more of a concern than any sort of mitigating factor. Mutt Lunker (talk) 15:03, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Well as you are so concerned about the "typical elements of the content they produce", I suggest you go and spend your time checking through the rest of the articles I have expanded/created - try Pitfour estate, Forglen House, James Smith (architect), Inchdrewer Castle etc etc - I'm afraid they bare no resemblance to Hanklyn-Janklin but I hadn't realised that was the high standard being aimed for by this project. SagaciousPhil - Chat 15:19, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Sticking with the ad hominem I see rather than prepared to address the matter at hand. Corryvreckan in relation to the Blue Men? Mutt Lunker (talk) 15:31, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
As I suggested, go and check everything else I've worked on if it is such a concern to you - or perhaps you need to canvass for a bit more support first? Oh and by the way, FAs are not automatically included as TFAs. SagaciousPhil - Chat 15:40, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
No, lets stick with the specific queries I have raised re this one article as you seem intent on diverting attention from them. Mutt Lunker (talk) 18:04, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Incidentally "they" above = "the editor" singular, i.e. Eric. Mutt Lunker (talk) 18:50, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
How extraordinary - if, as you claim, that is the case, how come your comment starting "Sticking with ..." doesn't make that clarification? Or do you just backtrack whenever it suits you? SagaciousPhil - Chat 19:25, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm completely mystified as to what triggered all the mud-slinging – probably a fair bit of misinterpretation and misunderstanding – but the article has now been protected for four days, so I hope this will give people a chance to cool off and think of a constructive way forwards. --Deskford (talk) 19:10, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

This lazy tagging, only two days after the FA star was added. Discuss on the talk page, fine, but don't deface a brand new FA like that. Eric Corbett 19:24, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Matt, Eric is simply a quite dreadful Wiki-dragon (sub-species uncertain) and if I were in more jocular mood I'd say that the opening description to the (now sadly sidelined) Nuckelavee FAC sounds suspiciously like he is editing an article about himself. On no account is he to be fed and the best medicine is to ignore him until, as he usually does, he calms down and re-commences his excellent work. Ben MacDui 19:39, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Aha, from now on that's how I'll picture Eric – presumably this is a cousin of the creature that in Shetland is called a njuggle or njugal? Well, I've seen enough drama for one day. I'm off for an evening swim in the Minch. --Deskford (talk) 20:01, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Let me put this as simply as I can for the hard of understanding. You work your bollocks off for a few weeks, you put yourself through the stress of an FAC for another few weeks, and then two or three days later some twat comes along and defaces your article over some minor issue or other. If you think that's acceptable then you and I have nothing more to say to each other. Eric Corbett 17:14, 15 July 2014 (UTC)


The usage of Scots (edit|talk|history|protect|delete|links|watch|logs|views) is under discussion, see talk:Scots -- (talk) 04:41, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Scottish pioneer in Southern California[edit]

Your attention is called to a new article, Daniel Freeman (Los Angeles County), in which Scotlander Daniel Freeman, ostensibly a "Sir" of some sort, is mentioned and a link is made to Crathes_Castle. If you would like to link to this article or make comments about its relation to Scotland, please do so on the Talk Page over there. Thank you, GeorgeLouis (talk) 21:46, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Scotland portal[edit]

[Copying this here from the portal talk page in hope of reaching a wider audience.] Is this portal still being maintained? Selected article & quotes are both currently redlinked. Additionally the news has not been updated since February. Espresso Addict (talk) 09:15, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Banff and Macduff[edit]

The page Banff and Macduff has been nominated for WP:PROD deletion. In principle I am in agreement that we don't need this article, but there is a problem. At one point this single article covered both towns in detail, and I was responsible for separating it into articles for each town. Unfortunately I did it by copy-and-paste – I was fairly new to Wikipedia at the time and didn't appreciate the importance of preserving editing histories – which means that if this article is deleted we will lose the early history. I think this would cause us licensing problems. Is there a way of clearing up this mess? Many apologies for causing it! --Deskford (talk) 15:09, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Try WP:CPMV. Ben MacDui 18:56, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. PamD (talk · contribs) has come up with what seems like a good solution. --Deskford (talk) 10:08, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

MSPs' Websites[edit]

Most of the MSPs' articles that I've checked so far contain out-dated links to Current links for all MSP's can be found at I'm going through fixing them but if anyone wants to help that would be appreciated.GideonF (talk) 15:12, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Kelpie geography[edit]

Glen Keltney near Schiehallion same spot as Lochan near Aberfeldy?[edit]

Relating to the Kelpie article, the folklorist Katharine Mary Briggs records a story of the kelpie at "Glen Keltney near Schiehallion" in Perthshire in one work, but later records the identical story as a water horse tale that occurs in "a small lochan near Aberfeldy.
I edited on the assumption that she is talking about the same location (call it "Body of Water X"), about 5km from either Schiehallion or Aberfeldy. So feedback on yes or no, if I am resorting to WP:Opinion here, and how to rephrase it to avoid that charge. Talk:Kelpie--Kiyoweap (talk) 04:38, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

I would appreciate comments at Talk:Kelpie on these geography questions:

  • Folklorist Katharine Mary Briggs's tale of the kelpie at "Glen Keltney near Schiehallion" (in her 1967 work) and her each uisge tale at "a small lochan near Aberfeldy are substantively identical, but for some choices in phrasing the story. I am assuming the same body of water is being referred to, so comments.
  • One tale is localized in Loch na cloinne "lake of the children", which the source says is between Farr, Sutherland and Thurso in Caithness. The aricle adopts the Thurso location, but I suspect Farr might be the better choice. --Kiyoweap (talk) 04:47, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
What makes you think that? --Hafspajen (talk) 13:08, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
@Hafspajen: I am deliberately leaving it as an open exercise, a quiz of sorts, without providing my arguments/solutions here, in order to give the geographically minded a chance to make their own inquiries and make assessments from a relatively clean slate.
But if you want to forgo that step, I do go a bit further into argument at either Talk:Kelpie#Glen Keltney and lochan near Aberfeldy identical? or Talk:Kelpie#Loch na Cloinne in Farr or Thurso?, so please go there and respond. (Minor typos fixed on my previous post)--Kiyoweap (talk) 18:56, 24 August 2014 (UTC)