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I left this message on the New South Wales project talk page, but that project appears to be lifeless. Anyone here want to have a crack at cleaning up this article?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_New_South_Wales#Lydham_Hall 76.14.122.5 (talk) 01:28, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- See Talk:Lydham Hall#Referencing, and discuss there if necessary. Mitch Ames (talk) 07:02, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
Requested move at Talk:Sydney R-Class Tram#Requested move 4 May 2024[edit]
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Sydney R-Class Tram#Requested move 4 May 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 13:11, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
Gentle reminder - the AFD list[edit]
For those editors not fully familiar with all aspects of the Australian project, an interesting point of understanding the processes involved the checking articles for a range of issues is -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Deletion_sorting/Australia
The Australian deletion sorting page is well worth visiting, to understand the discussions and ways that deletion can be argued. At times, there are the usual suspects, and in many cases editors who seem totally oblivious to Trove for instance. It is worth visiting. JarrahTree 06:33, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
NSW State Heritage Register[edit]
Since sometime around 2018, a number of users have comprehensively added to, or created new articles for places listed on the NSW Heritage Register. Much of this content consists of direct extracts from the registry entries, under CC-BY Attribution licence. This seems to have led to widespread (although, not universal) inclusion of the Local Government Area in the lead paragraph of articles for heritage listed locations - eg here. This is most likely an artifact of the heritage listings, which specify LGAs as they are used for administrative purposes within the NSW government. However including this in the article leads seems redundant and in some cases irrelevant. The information is unnecessarily specific and it is uncommon in Australia to refer to an LGA to disambiguate a town or city - usually where any doubt exists, a state is sufficient (Eg. Campbelltown, NSW or Campbelltown SA).
It also introduces inconsistencies between articles where other wikiprojects have worked to standardise formats, such as Boggabri railway station (non-heritage listed) and Tarana railway station (heritage listed). NSW railway station articles otherwise follow a very similar format and would not include the LGA in the lead paragraph. It appears that a number of experienced editors of good standing have changed the articles to include this information. Because of this, I'd like to seek opinions or consensus about the inclusion of LGAs in articles about buildings and structures before i start deleting these links from the leads. Dfadden (talk) 13:05, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
- In my opinion, LGAs should generally not be used as an address, as LGAs are not used in addresses in Australia. Addresses use street, suburb and state, and those are the units that should be used in Wikipedia articles as well. If the LGA is especially relevant for some other reason, then it can be mentioned, but in general, don't mention the LGA. Steelkamp (talk) 13:25, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that in general the LGA ought not be in the lead sentence, especially as part of the address. The LGA might rate a mention in the lead section if the article subject is directly related to an LGA, eg hypothetically:
Council Hall is a heritage-listed building on Foo Street, Bartown, New South Wales. It has been the seat of local government for the Shire of Barshire since that shire was created.
- but then it gets mentioned as part of normal next flow, not part of the "address". Mitch Ames (talk) 13:56, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
- The Queensland Heritage Register project was done prior to the NSW HR project and the NSW project followed a similar format. In Queensland, we do have duplicated town and locality names (and place names that are very similar and easily confused, differing by a single character or the inclusion of a second word often omitted in every day speech), so disambiguation by local government areas is required or at least helpful. And in any case LGA names etc are often used in conjunction with a town/locality name where the place would not be well known, e.g. Finch Hatton is a town about about 500 people but I am sure most Australians would not know of it, but if I said Finch Hatton in the Mackay Region, then I think many people would have some rough idea of where I was talking about.
- However, my expertise is Queensland place naming, but not NSW place naming, so I checked the guidelines on NSW place naming and on page 2, it states that "New place names may be duplicated, provided there is no duplication of the name within the local government area or adjoining local government areas. However, duplication should be avoided wherever possible." which suggests to me that duplication might be present in NSW place names but not within LGAs. Given that place names starting with "Spring" are very commonly found duplicated (or very similar) in Queensland, I did a check in NSW and, yes, Spring Hill is a village (and a railway station) in Orange (LGA), a suburb of Wollongong, and a suburb in Cabonne (as well as a lot of hills etc). And there's similiar names for towns/suburbs etc such as Spring Creek/Farm/Flat/Grove/Mountain/Plains/Ridge/Terrace and two of them are in Orange and Cabonne too. So, my quick look suggests placenames in NSW are duplicated.
- I don't know to what extent NSW place name dupication affects heritage listings, but the NSW State Heritage register does include the LGA so evidently they thought it had some value. It is not uncommon for a Wikipedia article to be notable (or at least of interest) for two or more reasons and one often sees multiple infoboxes in such articles (or combined ones where embedding makes it possible) and combination of sections and section content accordingly. I think this is the case here. I would not argue for the section on Services to be deleted from the Tarana railway station article just because "that doesn't fit the heritage format". We all bring our own interests to Wikipedia and I think articles are better for the reader from that diversity of interests. Nor do I ever agree with removing cited content because "I don't like it" (apart from where it is actually contrary to policy), so I don't see the harm in retaining the LGA since it is already in the article and is routinely used by the NSW State Heritage Register in its description of places, and does not do any apparent harm to the reader who isn't interested in heritage or local government. Indeed, the example mentioned Tarana railway station is a topic that would struggle for Wikpedia notability as a railway station without its heritage listing (take a look at its citations, the ones not mentioning its heritage are all run-of-the-mill timetables and other rail *service* content, not discussing the *station* itself in a way that would meet the "significant coverage" required for WP:GNG. Kerry (talk) 00:58, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- Aside, I note that anyone wanting to improve the Tarana railway station article might like to add some content on the Oberton Tarana Heritage Railway and the reopening of the railway station building following heritage repair and restoration works, which were thrown up in my research just now. Kerry (talk) 01:10, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- Actually this search throws up a number of heritage-restoration projects being undertaken on heritage-listed NSW railway stations]. Kerry (talk) 01:15, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks Kerry. I agree that the heritage listings provide valuable information to articles that may otherwise struggle against the GNG. My concern was specifically about the opening paragraphs. MOS:OPEN says that these should avoid being too specific, and my position is rooted in how we interpret this policy, rather than a case of WP:IDL. I think we should aim for consistency in the lead paragraph of building and structure articles, no more, no less. I am also not suggesting that we should remove content to favour route and service information over heritage details for train stations!
- The value of heritage register entries including LGAs is primarily related to administrative and planning functions. There are planning considerations that would require consultation with local councils should any proposed developments impact these protected sites. For the same reason, the listings also include Local Aboriginal Land Councils, so do we also include this information in the lead paragraphs? Likewise, Geographical Names Board listings for towns and suburbs also include cadastral parishes and counties for reasons of lands administration. We generally dont include this information in the lead paragraph of an article on a town or suburb either! Dfadden (talk) 08:33, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- As a side note, it is completely appropriare to include the LGA in articles about populated places! That said, there have been many council amalgamations and deamalgamations in NSW since the 1990s. This has resulted in relistings and gazettals of localities and some weird quirks in the GNB. Eg, for the example you gave of Spring Hill being a suburb of Orange and a village in the Cabonne Council, it is actually both - the Cabonne Shire surrounds the City of Orange and incorporates the outlying villages. The Geographical Names Board features two listings as if they were distinct localities, but that's actually a little misleading as they both refer to the same general area. If you look closely, this listing [1] states the locality spans two LGAs and the associated coordinates between the two listings only differ by a few seconds of both latitude and longitude. But now we risk digressing! Dfadden (talk) 08:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- Interesting chat. As a project team member who worked with Kerry, The Drover's Wife and others on the 2018 rollout of articles for each property listed on the NSW Heritage Register, I have a good understanding of the issues. In hindsight, I completely agree with Dfadden in that, within New South Wales, use of the LGA should be relatively rare. We would likely write:
Council Hall is a heritage-listed building on Foo Street, Bartown, in the Baz region of New South Wales.
- Hence, there would be no mention of the ZZZ local government area. The proposal of It has been in the seat of the local government…. is confusing in several ways:
- What is It…, as in 'It is in the….'?
- Use of the seat of... within the context of LGAs is rare.
- I acknowledge Kerry's genuine and innocent blindness to facts such as Cabonne Shire and Orange City being adjoining LGAs with Spring Hill / Spring Creek being on the boundary line. To me, the NSW Heritage properties require a retrofit of those articles where the LGA has been mentioned, to remove mentions of the LGA. The only exception to this may be where a disambiguation arises - which I would think would be exceptionally rare. In short, I'm support of any proposal to remove the reference to the LGA.
- With total respect to Kerry, who did an inordinate amount of work to bring the NSW State Heritage project to life, just because it may be required in QLD, to mean that it must be adopted in NSW (or any other state) is an insufficient justification for wholesale implementation in NSW (and other states). I'm very happy to help with any project to correct; as proposed by Dfadden. For example, looking at Tarana railway station, this edit by me added the LGA of the City of Lithgow. Most folks would not know where Tarana is. So, perhaps a more apt description is Tarana, in the Central West region of New South Wales. I'd value thoughts on the addition of the broad geographic region, as opposed the LGA. Or do we simply record as Tarana, New South Wales; and consequently require the reader to try and find out where Tarana, Boggabri, Wingello, and/or Ariah Park, etc., or any other hamlet is located? Rangasyd (talk) 12:44, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you Rangasyd! I have enormous respect for the work yourself, @Kerry and @The Drover's Wife and all involved put in to the SHR project. It was a large and overwhelmingly positive contribution. I do not seek to detract from that in any way by proposing minor tweaks such as this one.
- Personally, I feel your suggestion to include regions in leads is preferable as this is already a much more common practice in NSW based articles. But especially given I'm proposing a change on the basis of consistency, I have to be pragmatic and comment that broad regions are not always well defined. There is often some overlap, such as with the Orana and Central Tablelands both also falling within the Central West. Or the South Western Slopes and Riverina. However, if the purpose is just to help the reader locate where a heritage-listed building or structure is, I would not object. Dfadden (talk) 21:19, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- As a side note, it is completely appropriare to include the LGA in articles about populated places! That said, there have been many council amalgamations and deamalgamations in NSW since the 1990s. This has resulted in relistings and gazettals of localities and some weird quirks in the GNB. Eg, for the example you gave of Spring Hill being a suburb of Orange and a village in the Cabonne Council, it is actually both - the Cabonne Shire surrounds the City of Orange and incorporates the outlying villages. The Geographical Names Board features two listings as if they were distinct localities, but that's actually a little misleading as they both refer to the same general area. If you look closely, this listing [1] states the locality spans two LGAs and the associated coordinates between the two listings only differ by a few seconds of both latitude and longitude. But now we risk digressing! Dfadden (talk) 08:40, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- Actually this search throws up a number of heritage-restoration projects being undertaken on heritage-listed NSW railway stations]. Kerry (talk) 01:15, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
- Aside, I note that anyone wanting to improve the Tarana railway station article might like to add some content on the Oberton Tarana Heritage Railway and the reopening of the railway station building following heritage repair and restoration works, which were thrown up in my research just now. Kerry (talk) 01:10, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
Requested move at Talk:Michael Messineo#Requested move 7 May 2024[edit]
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Michael Messineo#Requested move 7 May 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ASUKITE 18:42, 15 May 2024 (UTC)