Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Muhammad images/Workshop: Difference between revisions
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It was said during the debate at [[Talk:Muhammad/images]] that the images are being included in the article either for the sake of including images or as a knee-jerk response to ostensible censorship. In your view, are the images presently in the article useful to the reader and do they add to the quality of the article? If we removed the images or used very few (as reportedly is the case in the sources, most of which use few images of Muhammad), would the article be better or worse off? Please explain briefly why in both cases. [[User:AGK|<font color="black">'''AGK'''</font>]] [[User talk:AGK#top|<nowiki>[</nowikI>•<nowiki>]</nowiki>]] 04:04, 23 December 2011 (UTC) |
It was said during the debate at [[Talk:Muhammad/images]] that the images are being included in the article either for the sake of including images or as a knee-jerk response to ostensible censorship. In your view, are the images presently in the article useful to the reader and do they add to the quality of the article? If we removed the images or used very few (as reportedly is the case in the sources, most of which use few images of Muhammad), would the article be better or worse off? Please explain briefly why in both cases. [[User:AGK|<font color="black">'''AGK'''</font>]] [[User talk:AGK#top|<nowiki>[</nowikI>•<nowiki>]</nowiki>]] 04:04, 23 December 2011 (UTC) |
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*No one asserts that our images, created 600 or more years after Muhammad's death, by artists from different cultures than Muhammad's own, bear any naturalistic resemblance to what Muhammad looked like. Where a face is shown, the features are those of a generic male, indistinguishable from those of other male figures in the relevant work. So while they're of central importance in an art history article like [[Depictions of Muhammad]], they have very limited encyclopedic relevance in [[Muhammad]]. For those interested in what Muhammad looked like, there are extant and much beloved descriptions of his appearance by his contemporaries; I added a couple of them to the article a few weeks ago. |
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*Images of course make an article less dry to read, and are useful in illustrating a figure's artistic reception. In Muhammad's case, figurative images have played a very limited (and non-public) role in that reception, whose main focus has been on calligraphy of his name(s) and words, present in almost any mosque in the world. In Turkey and parts of the Ottoman Empire, calligraphic renderings of the eyewitness accounts of his appearance have also been popular, and an [[hilya|art form in their own right]]. If we are using Islamic art to decorate the article, then we should use mainstream Islamic imagery that is culturally relevant. That's also the approach taken by many reliable sources. |
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*This is where the preponderance of figurative images actually becomes a net negative. By including so many of them, we are implying they ''are'' the mainstream. If casual readers come away from the article with the impression that Muslims paint and worship images of Muhammad just as happily and enthusiastically as Christians or Buddhists worship images and statues of Jesus or Buddha, we have failed them. So I believe what we had [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad&oldid=463547924 here], per Resolute's proposal, was about right; and we should add a photograph of the Kaaba and Quranic inscriptions from a couple of mosques. That would make the article better, and more in line with reliable sources. --'''<font color="#0000FF">[[User:Jayen466|J]]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">[[User_Talk:Jayen466|N]]</font><font color="#0000FF">[[Special:Contributions/Jayen466|466]]</font>''' 07:07, 23 December 2011 (UTC) |
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=Proposed final decision= |
=Proposed final decision= |
Revision as of 07:19, 23 December 2011
Case clerk: TBD Drafting arbitrator: TBD
Wikipedia Arbitration |
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Track related changes |
This is a page for working on Arbitration decisions. The Arbitrators, parties to the case, and other editors may draft proposals and post them to this page for review and comments. Proposals may include proposed general principles, findings of fact, remedies, and enforcement provisions—the same format as is used in Arbitration Committee decisions. The bottom of the page may be used for overall analysis of the /Evidence and for general discussion of the case.
Any user may edit this workshop page. Please sign all suggestions and comments. Arbitrators will place proposed items they believe should be part of the final decision on the /Proposed decision page, which only Arbitrators and clerks may edit, for voting, clarification as well as implementation purposes.
Motions and requests by the parties
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Proposed temporary injunctions
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Questions to the parties
(1) Current article and image use
It was said during the debate at Talk:Muhammad/images that the images are being included in the article either for the sake of including images or as a knee-jerk response to ostensible censorship. In your view, are the images presently in the article useful to the reader and do they add to the quality of the article? If we removed the images or used very few (as reportedly is the case in the sources, most of which use few images of Muhammad), would the article be better or worse off? Please explain briefly why in both cases. AGK [•] 04:04, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- No one asserts that our images, created 600 or more years after Muhammad's death, by artists from different cultures than Muhammad's own, bear any naturalistic resemblance to what Muhammad looked like. Where a face is shown, the features are those of a generic male, indistinguishable from those of other male figures in the relevant work. So while they're of central importance in an art history article like Depictions of Muhammad, they have very limited encyclopedic relevance in Muhammad. For those interested in what Muhammad looked like, there are extant and much beloved descriptions of his appearance by his contemporaries; I added a couple of them to the article a few weeks ago.
- Images of course make an article less dry to read, and are useful in illustrating a figure's artistic reception. In Muhammad's case, figurative images have played a very limited (and non-public) role in that reception, whose main focus has been on calligraphy of his name(s) and words, present in almost any mosque in the world. In Turkey and parts of the Ottoman Empire, calligraphic renderings of the eyewitness accounts of his appearance have also been popular, and an art form in their own right. If we are using Islamic art to decorate the article, then we should use mainstream Islamic imagery that is culturally relevant. That's also the approach taken by many reliable sources.
- This is where the preponderance of figurative images actually becomes a net negative. By including so many of them, we are implying they are the mainstream. If casual readers come away from the article with the impression that Muslims paint and worship images of Muhammad just as happily and enthusiastically as Christians or Buddhists worship images and statues of Jesus or Buddha, we have failed them. So I believe what we had here, per Resolute's proposal, was about right; and we should add a photograph of the Kaaba and Quranic inscriptions from a couple of mosques. That would make the article better, and more in line with reliable sources. --JN466 07:07, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Proposed final decision
Proposals by User:Jayen466
Proposed principles
Images are subject to WP:NPOV
1) Images, like other article content, are subject to the WP:NPOV policy, specifically WP:DUE. In contentious cases, editors should make a good-faith attempt to base their selection and inclusion of images available for article illustration on the prevalence of the same or equivalent types of imagery in reliable sources on the article topic.
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- Proposed. Editors are generally given wide leeway in selecting article illustrations. But while the use of images for article illustration is often uncontroversial, and constrained by the pool of image files available, in contentious cases reliable sources should be used as a reference point to decide what types of images to include, and how prominently to include them. --JN466 15:48, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- This proposal is wrongheaded. Whilst reference to sources may be of use in choosing imagery for an article, it is not keeping with either NPOV or general WP practice to suggest that choice of imagery should duplicate what is found in a (hypothetical and elusive) average or typical source. NPOV is not a quest for an average. Our article on Justin Bieber, for example, does not have an abnormally high picture-to-text ratio and does not have washed-out love hearts in the background, even though these are things that may well characterise an "average" source on the subject. NPOV only applies to images insofar as they represent a "view" (ideological, rather than pictorial). What we are dealing with here, though, are views about religious preferences and about editorial decision-making, rather than views about the subject of the article. I would say this makes NPOV moot.
- However, even in the case that the images are held to represent a "view" for the purposes of NPOV, applying it would not give the result intended, because an honest examination of sources would not justify the removal of any images of Mohammed from the article (of course, "honest" here is in the eye of the beholder and it is likely that anyone examining sources will end up concluding whatever it was they set out to). --FormerIP (talk) 17:08, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- I see no evidence that images of Bieber in reliable sources customarily feature hearts (notwithstanding the presence of a few such images on fan sites). But if, for argument's sake, 20% of images in reliable sources were of that type, it would be entirely appropriate for us to feature one too, to reflect a significant aspect of his popular reception. --JN466 17:25, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
What this seems like is that Jayen has already decided that there should be less images of Muhammad in the article, then goes out to try and shape existing policy to support that conclusion. To me, that is a backwards approach to editing. Tarc (talk) 20:38, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- Given NPOV is non-negotiable I would have thought this was obvious... -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:02, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- NPOV is indeed non-negotiable, but the heart of this dispute is conflicting interpretations of what it means to meet NPOV in this subject area. Tarc (talk) 21:06, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
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- This seems clearly to be an attempt to craft Wikipedia policy around this one specific case. Actually, we've got well established, time-tested doctrine which is clear even here; what we have are a small handful of POV warriors trying to rewrite the rules or filibuster their opposition into submission, whichever comes first. It's ludicrous saying that "reliable sources" should determine image selection; our pool of possible images ultimately determines which images are used in a given article, and editorial consensus determines that. There is a majority view and a minority view on this matter in this specific case. The minority refuses to go away on the matter and has engaged in disruptive behavior in an effort to win the day. Seven-eighths of this problem can be resolved with three well placed topic bans, and the other one-eighth can be resolved by agreement among the remaining editors. That's the truth. Carrite (talk) 19:32, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
2) WP:NOTCENSORED does not override WP:NPOV, including WP:DUE.
Closed discussion. AGK [•] 04:06, 23 December 2011 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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- The discussion associated with this workshop proposal has surpassed its usefulness. AGK [•] 04:06, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Proposed findings of fact
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Proposed remedies
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Proposals by User:Eraserhead1
Proposed remedies
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Mentoring for Ludwigs2
1) As per ASCIIn2Bme's evidence Ludwigs2 takes it too far on many occasions, mentoring to give him a better idea of acceptable behaviour would in my view be useful.
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- This is in addition to any other remedies that are considered appropriate by the committee. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:34, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- Mentoring is for relatively new but over-aggressive/eager editors that others feel can be a valued contributor if given a bit of guidance. Ludwigs has been around the block much to long for that; this length of time spent in the Wikipedia community has given him more than enough familiarity with norms and practices here. If Ludwigs runs afoul of those, that is his choice; he knows better. Tarc (talk) 22:53, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
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- I don't think mentoring can work for someone who is being disruptive with a self-declared expectation of being "martyred". See Resolute's evidence. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 05:37, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with above. Ludwigs2 has passed the point where mentoring would make a difference --Guerillero | My Talk 21:42, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
- Personally I disagree and mentoring has been considered a reasonable option for editors with much longer block logs than Ludwigs in the past. That said of course the arbitration committee should be the ones to decide whether to take this point forward. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:39, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
- I agree in principle, but Ludwigs' own comments make it clear that he doesn't care about consensus or Wikipedia's policies. He's only interested in getting his way, or getting banned in the process. A mentor cannot help someone who refuses to accept that consensus can, and does, go against his viewpoint. Resolute 23:15, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
- Er, of course the arbs will be the ones to decide, eraser; why did you even feel the need to tell us that? Workshop entries have commentary sections for parties to the case, arbs, and others. We're just here weighing in in our respective sections, not passing judgement. Tarc (talk) 00:34, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- Personally I disagree and mentoring has been considered a reasonable option for editors with much longer block logs than Ludwigs in the past. That said of course the arbitration committee should be the ones to decide whether to take this point forward. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:39, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with above. Ludwigs2 has passed the point where mentoring would make a difference --Guerillero | My Talk 21:42, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think mentoring can work for someone who is being disruptive with a self-declared expectation of being "martyred". See Resolute's evidence. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 05:37, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Proposals by User:Tarc
Proposed principles
NPOV and external advocacy
1) Adherence to a neutral point of view when crafting an article in the Wikipedia is of the utmost importance, it is what sets an encyclopedia apart from a newspaper, a blog, a think tank's publications, or any similar source where "X is right, !X is wrong" is the aim/goal of the report, rather than the reporting itself. As such, the project cannot allow its coverage of a topic to be affected by external advocacy groups. These groups may believe information should be presented in a certain manner, that some things must be withheld or treated with discretion. To allow their influence into the project and to affect editorial decision-making would compromise our drive to present the neutral point of view.
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Islamic prohibitions against images
2) Specific to this topic area, the religious precepts of the Islamic faith that call for depictions of the prophet Muhammad to be veiled or removed altogether cannot be allowed to affect, influence, or color the article Muhammad (or any sub-articles or others within this topic area).
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Proposed findings of fact
TL;DR
1) Several editors have generated an enormous and dense amount of argumentation in their drive to acquiesce to outside religious beliefs, in opposition to Principles #1 and #2. Some have been simply misguided, albeit civil. Others have been belligerent and vitriolic towards those who disagree with them. Some fall in between.
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Offense isn't enough
2) Wikipedia editors can never be allowed to purposefully add text or images or other media to an article with an express purpose to offend a race, religion, creed or sexual orientation. However, such material should not be removed from an article for the sole reason that it offends someone. When in doubt, assume that an editor who supports an inclusion or opposes a removal is doing so with the goal of bettering the project.
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Proposed remedies
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Proposals by Resolute
Proposed principles
Wikipedia contains material that some may consider offensive
1) Wikipedia covers a wide array of topics, some of which will be sensitive topics to readers on the basis of religion, cultural belief, age-appropriateness or nationalism (among others). Such material is provided for informative purposes and is necessary to maintain a neutral point of view.
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Proposed findings of fact
Consensus exists that Muhammad should include depictions
1) An overwhelming majority of editors involved in the debates have agreed that images belong on the article, even if they disagree on the number, placement and specific image use.
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The number and placement of depictions at Muhammad already reflects a compromise position
2) The article has, over time and organically, achieved a state that sets it apart from the typical historical biography by: (1) Limiting depictions to a small minority percentage of the overall total images. (2) Using artistic calligraphy as the infobox lead image rather than a depiction (3) placing the majority of such depictions in the bottom half of the article, "below the fold". (4) Allowing for logged in editors to remove the images for their own account (Answer 3 of FAQ)
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Editors have engaged in battleground behaviour
3) Editors have attempted to polarize the debate into an ideological and religious battle, resorted to incivility and personal attacks and have shown a disinclination to acting in a collaborative nature, frustrating the community's ability to resolve this debate.
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Ludwigs2 has resorted to tendentious editing
4) Ludwigs2 has violated WP:NPA, WP:IDHT, WP:BATTLE, even in this very ArbCom case request.
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Proposed remedies
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Ludwigs2 is topic banned
1) Ludwigs2 is topic banned from the area of Muhammad images, broadly construed, for a period of one year.
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Ludwigs2 is placed on probation
2) Once his topic ban expires, he is placed on indefinite probation, during which he may be blocked without warning by an uninvolved administrator if he resumes a battleground mentality on the topic of Muhammad images, broadly construed.
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- I include this because Ludwigs has a history of "testing the waters" periodically and has shown he will not drop the stick: [1]. In my view, a one-year topic ban will only mean he comes back in 366 days to resume his crusade. That would not be problematic in and of itself, but there is no reason why anyone should have to deal with the monstrous waste of time his battleground mentality has resulted in yet another time. Resolute 00:33, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
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Proposals by User:Example 3
Proposed principles
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General discussion
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