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Requested move 12 September 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved Sceptre (talk) 19:37, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Rebecca Quinn (soccer) → Quinn (soccer) – Quinn recently came out as transgender, and announced on their twitter, @thequinny5, that they no longer use the first name of "Rebecca." This change would reflect that. I have updated the page content as well but am not autoconfirmed to be able to make this change myself. 2600:1700:9930:7CA0:F04F:963E:314C:412C (talk) 16:18, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 17:53, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This page just got protected - might be worth discussing first as might be controversial. -Kj cheetham (talk) 17:02, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
~~Oppose~~ - I've read the Instagram post and it doesn't say the article subject wants to be known by surname only? All the reliable sources covering the 'coming out' use the name Rebecca Quinn. Admittedly I haven't ploughed through the 600 or so comments on the Instagram post. Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 20:27, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, okay, it seems the article subject has subsequently repudiated their first name so per WP:GENDERID we can't use it. Perhaps it would have been better if they had expressed this wish to be known mononymously (or by the first name '*'?) in their initial statement? Quinn (soccer) is obviously not ideal, because there are several other more notable footballers named Quinn. It would be helpful for us if their new name was forthcoming soon, although – understandably – the plight of baffled wikipedia editors is probably not uppermost in their mind right now! Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 11:35, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Quinn has stated on Twitter their opposition to being dead named in many of the "mainstream articles" about their coming out, including replying to an Out Magazine Instagram post correcting Out's use of their dead name, replying "* Quinn". They have not yet publicly stated a new preferred given name, and on all social media are now purposefully going by simply "Quinn". Ehurtley (talk) 21:13, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support - per vote above it seems clear they have a preference to not use their old name and instead want Quinn for now. So a page move is justified by MOS:DEADNAME.Rab V (talk) 22:54, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support – as per the reasons stated by Ehurtley and Rab V. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 12:20, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support given the player's clear indication their deadname is no longer desired. Should they select a new first name at some point, I imagine another move would apply then. But we should respect their wishes until such a time. Radagast (talk) 13:48, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. Giant Snowman 19:35, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support move to Quinn (soccer, born 1995) as Quinn (soccer) is ambiguous (could refer to Aodhan Quinn or Brian Quinn, for example). GiantSnowman 19:38, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- No it wouldn't be ambiguous. Quinn is currently the only mononymous player. If some other players start to use this mononymous name later, then sure, but for now this is over disambiguating. Seany91 (talk) 18:36, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support – player has explicitly stated their preference. Seany91 (talk) 18:36, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support and update all references to the new name (and add to Quinn). Oppose move to Quinn (soccer, born 1995) as there are no other mononymously named players of the sport and the other subjects' full names are sufficient disambigators. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:04, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- For the record, the subject's Soccer Canada page has been updated and the national team entry has as well. Time to make this happen. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:14, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support move to Quinn (soccer, born 1995) as stated above, this is less ambiguous and would suit the athlete's wish. Krazytea(talk) 01:18, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Should Quinn be treated in plural during the article introduction as well? ("Quinn are Canadian professional soccer players..." instead of "Quinn is a Canadian professional soccer player"). What about the position parameter in the infobox football biography? (From "Centre-back, midfielder" to "Centre-backs, midfielders"?).--MonFrontieres (talk) 04:26, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- I think it is a "singular they"... Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 09:13, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - Exactly. "Quinn is..." but "they are..." when pronouns are used. Seany91 (talk) 09:35, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - No it is singular they, not plural they. There is an obvious difference. Krazytea(talk) 20:23, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 2 August 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Naming convention guidelines are clear, so being bold and moving. (non-admin closure) POLITANVM ^talk 14:22, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Quinn (Association football player) → Quinn (soccer) – Seeking consensus to undo a move done without consensus or an edit summary. It is standard practice for North American soccer players to be titled as "John Smith (soccer)" just as much as "John Smith (basketball)" or "John Smith (American football)". The fact that these people are not literal balls does not come into it. Unknown Temptation (talk) 14:07, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Done. It shouldn't have been moved to (Association football player) in the first place, per the sportspeople naming guidelines. POLITANVM ^talk 14:21, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Note on August 2 move

Realizing that I didn't follow the process at non-admin closure for requested moves, I'd like to clarify why I closed the requested move without discussion. It appeared to be an uncontroversial request that shouldn't have been a move request in the first place, since:

Naming conventions (sportspeople) is clear than Canadian people should use "(soccer)".
Quinn (soccer) was the result of a previous requested move, and no new discussion was created for moving to "(Association football player)".
Per WP:NOTRM, this is an uncontroversial move that any autoconfirmed editor could have done without a Request for move.

Nonetheless, I acknowledge that:

There is no deadline for closing discussion, and the article could have been left at "Association football player" for a week.
I didn't follow the right process to vote and close a discussion, and may have caused some technical issues in reporting on RMs, or misused a template. I should have made sure I understood all of the technical and process components of closing RMs.

I do believe I followed the spirit of WP:RM, but I'll re-open the move discussion if anyone feels this was a controversial close. POLITANVM ^talk 17:36, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Seemed like a well done closure to me, @Politanvm. Just remember to follow WP:RMNAC. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲^(talk) 07:02, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 3 August 2021

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Remove - Birth name Rebecca Catherine Quinn[2] from article. Because Quinn is trans they don't deserve everyone knowing their birth name and it’s blatantly offensive to do so. I would request you do the same to every trans persons article. I request this as a non binary person myself. A birth name isn’t important and needs to be removed. 2600:1700:FF80:F580:500C:DE1E:28D6:56EC (talk) 01:24, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@2600:1700:FF80:F580:500C:DE1E:28D6:56EC: According to the project's guidelines, specifically WP:DEADNAME, the former name of a living transgender person is allowed to be added in the lede if they were notable under that name, which appears to be the case here. Isabelle ^🔔 02:14, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Appears to be disagreement on whether or not they were notable under their birth name. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲^(talk) 04:33, 3 August 2

Done

Note: Based on the consensus of the page move, I'm going to reason their dead name should not be included in the article as well. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲^(talk) 06:53, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 3 August 2021 (2)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I think that this bio should not include the name they were assigned at birth. 2600:1700:DDD0:4610:0:0:0:43 (talk) 05:37, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Done

Note: Based on the consensus of the page move, I'm going to reason their dead name should not be included in the article as well. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲^(talk) 06:50, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Undone Consensus for a policy-based title change cannot extend to a separate content change, and especially when that content change would contravene policy (Quinn was a notable soccer player when using their former name). IronGargoyle (talk) 18:05, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support I agree that the birth assigned name should not be included in the lead. Hmlarson (talk) 18:12, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The name should be included in the lead if the subject is notable under the former name. That's what the manual of style states and there is no consensus to remove the name and override the guideline. IronGargoyle (talk) 20:00, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@IronGargoyle: It should be noted you have two contributions to this article: both reverts to this edit request approved by FormalDude and seconded by other editors contributing to the article. Your reverts are not WP:CONSENSUS. See also WP:EW.

The birth name is already in the infobox. Hmlarson (talk) 20:11, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The consensus is the guideline at MOS:NB. The guideline illustrates inclusion in the lead when the subject was notable under the former name. It is completely misleading to state that there was consensus to override an editorial guideline in a move discussion which only addressed the article title. IronGargoyle (talk) 20:16, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's not and your transphobia is really glaring. Should we add a link to your edits as a citation? Hmlarson (talk) 20:19, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's a blatant personal attack and completely unjustified. I would request that that you strike your comment immediately. IronGargoyle (talk) 20:21, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@IronGargoyle: I'm sure you're quite familiar with personal attacks. Back to improving the article... thanks for the inspiration. Hmlarson (talk) 20:23, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Partly done Re-instituting the change and leaving their dead name in the infobox. I also removed the "female at birth" per WP:BINARY. 𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲𝘁𝗮𝗹𝗸 20:25, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 82: / Line 82: @@
 :{{done}}<!-- Template:ESp --> <br>
 ::'''Note:''' Based on the consensus of the page move, I'm going to reason their dead name should not be included in the article as well. ––[[User:FormalDude|<span style="color: #0151D2;font-size:110%">𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲</span>]]<sup>([[User talk:FormalDude|<b style=";color: #0101C0;font-size:110%"><u>talk</u></b>]])</sup> 06:50, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
-:::Consensus for a policy-based title change cannot extend to a separate content change, and especially when that content change would contravene policy (Quinn was a notable soccer player when using their former name). [[User:IronGargoyle|IronGargoyle]] ([[User talk:IronGargoyle|talk]]) 18:05, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
+:::{{Undone}} Consensus for a policy-based title change cannot extend to a separate content change, and especially when that content change would contravene policy (Quinn was a notable soccer player when using their former name). [[User:IronGargoyle|IronGargoyle]] ([[User talk:IronGargoyle|talk]]) 18:05, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 : '''Support''' I agree that the birth assigned name should not be included in the lead. [[User:Hmlarson|Hmlarson]] ([[User talk:Hmlarson|talk]]) 18:12, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 ::The name should be included in the lead if the subject is notable under the former name. That's what the manual of style states and there is no consensus to remove the name and override the guideline. [[User:IronGargoyle|IronGargoyle]] ([[User talk:IronGargoyle|talk]]) 20:00, 4 August 2021 (UTC)