User talk:Ottava Rima

As per this I shall be on a pseudo Wikibreak until August or so. That will give me more time to concentrate on my non-Wikipedia article writing. If you need any help, please feel free to leave a comment. I shall respond here and do as much as I can help from here.

Sincerely, Ottava Rima The Italian Rhyme.

Sermons of Dean Swift

Just a quick note to say that I just spotted Sermons of Dean Swift, which seems to be all your work, and thought I'd just drop a quick note to say that it's a great article. Elegantly written and comprehensively referenced, I immediately assessed it as B-class, but I'm sure that it would fly through a good article assessment if you chose to submit it, and it is probably v close to featured article standard. Good work! --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:40, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

It is misnamed, and it's odd that you keep this congratulations without keeping in mind the cautions about the quality of writing in the article from user:Geogre or the fact that you've lodged the article inappropriately from me. Still, it's your user talk page. If you won't consider the relevant issues, you might want to remove the congratulations. Utgard Loki (talk) 19:35, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks!

Thank you for letting me know about the updates on the Drapier's letters. I have entered a very busy period at work and will be doing a lot of overtime in the next week and don't know that I will have time to carefully review the additions and changes. You seem to be very knowledgable about the subject and I wish you the best of luck in the nomination! TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 19:50, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Ottava Rima/Printers

I've userfied this for now. Friday (talk) 16:43, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

RE:Drapier's Letters

Unfortunately, real life is rearing its ugly head these days and I'm pretty busy; I'm not too interested in the topic either ;). Good luck with your editing though! BuddingJournalist 18:56, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Elegant citation system

Hello Ottava Rima. I just took a look at Drapier's Letters, and noticed that system of the <cite> tags. It seems very neat, though I'm curious how much manual labor is needed. (I'm used to the WP:CITET business). Can you point me to where the new system is explained or documented? I imagine there are some other articles that might be able to use it. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 02:13, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

De nada

'S my pleasure. --User:AlbertHerring ^{Io son l'orecchio e tu la bocca: parla!} 16:28, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Jack Kemp

I have gotten Kemp to 60.2 KB. He will be under 60 KB within 24 hours. If Kemp were a 21st century pofigure with his same credentials, he would probably have five or ten WP:SPLIT articles just like current Presidential hopefuls. Anyone who is interested could probably make a complete article for any of the five sections in the politics section. In addition a new section could be started to detail his nine congressional races from the Buffalo News. I also think a football article could be created. That would give us seven split articles. Based on the sources I have access to I have exhuasted coverage of Kemp. I admit there is a great source at the Buffalo & Erie County Public Library with week by week history of the Buffalo Bills. I think it is the source I used to describe his late career knee injury. That would cover 7.5 years of Kemps 13 year pro career. I do not know if the Los Angeles/San Diego Chargers have the same sort of thing, but imagine you might be able to go to the San Diego Union archives if they don't . Probably there is a way to research Kemp's college career, but I do not have access to the Occidental College library. His name may have been mentioned in some Southern California newspapers for high school athletics. I do not have access to a database for this research. What type of article splitting do you mean?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 17:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

RE: Question

Sorry that was a mistake dude. King Rock ^{Go 'Skins!} 01:03, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Drapier's Letters should have been a GA years ago)just figure of speech). Hope we can keep in touch :) Cheers(What ever cheers means?) King Rock ^{Go 'Skins!} 01:10, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Picard

This is fun. How long can we keep it going? &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 02:09, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Nicely done both of you... But what is this supposed to mean? Are you a mere mortal; not the mouthpiece of the WikiGods? Disappointed, Merzul (talk) 10:26, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah

I think you must have had a mental stutter when you made that one! Gatoclass (talk) 12:40, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

An FAC discussion that you commented on was restarted

The FAC discussion Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Getting It: The psychology of est, which you had previously commented on, has since been restarted. Would you care to carry your !vote/comment forward from the FAC before it was restarted? Cirt (talk) 21:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, please. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

No problem

No problem. I moved it back. Danny (talk) 18:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Your Expansion of Jubilate Agno

Many thanks for your erudite expansion of the article I began on Smart's poem. Your efforts much improve upon what was, I own, formerly a skeletal discussion of the subject. Seduisant (talk) 17:23, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Hymns and Spiritual Songs

Hi. I was wondering if the book shouldn't go in the namespace for the full name of the book: Hymns and Spiritual Songs for the Fasts and Festivals of the Church of England,? ♫ Cricket02 (talk) 13:46, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest keeping the disambig page, moving the book to the full name space, and create a redirect from (book) to the full namespace. Having the book in the full namespace would better advance search results I think. ♫ Cricket02 (talk) 14:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Very interesting, thanks for the explanation. And I completely leave it all up to you as far as namespace, I don't deal much in book titles and you are an expert on that. I completely agree with the disambiguation page and have already fixed the album links to reflect that. There are still a few more links on the Hymns and Spiritual Songs but I'm not sure how to disambig those. Thanks again for your help. ♫ Cricket02 (talk) 18:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

edit conflicts

I'll continue my go-through tomorrow--we obviously cant do this simultaneously!. DGG (talk) 04:55, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Samuel Johnson/Cites/Thanks

Thank you for your offer to add cites to Samuel Johnson. It's much appreciated. -- Writtenonsand (talk) 17:56, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Pictures

If you'd like to fix the formatting and make it look clean, I fully support that. Good luck :). (|-- UlTiMuS 20:04, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

A Song to David

1. What Rose states (404): "There is no public record explicitly connecting Christopher Smart with Freemasonry. There does exist a poem attributed to "Brother C. Smart, A.M," published in a volume called A Defence of Freemasonry, in the mid-1760s, but it is of course possible that another C. Smart was the author of that work. The most suggestive evidence is therefore a line from the definitively attributed Jubilate Agno, which was written contemporaneously with the Song: "For I am the Lord's builder and free and accepted MASON in CHRIST JESUS" (B109). At a minimum, this line establishes that Smart had Freemasonry on his mind. A close analysis of the Song to David reveals that he was familiar with symbols from all three of the craft degrees, and undoubtedly the best source for such detailed knowledge would have been personal experience. But there were certainly other potential sources, for example the extremely popular expose Masonry Dissected by Samuel Prichard, published in 1730. This pamphlet ran through three editions in eleven days and remained readily available in London for over a century. It was also reputed to be one of the means by which the still young practice of speculative Freemasonry became standardized in Britain and abroad. In other words, Smart would have read it whether he were a Freemason or not. The most important thing to be said is this: much of the symbolism of Freemasonry derives from the story of the building of Solomon's temple, of which David was the divinely inspired architect. Upon this basis alone one is justified in pursuing the question of Masonic symbolism in the Song to David."

2. What Dearnley states (p. 184-185): "Father Devlin has also attempted a detailed, but in many ways simpler, analysis of the seven pillars in the Song to David. He takes quite a different course, because being a Roman Catholic, he is of course very anxious to prove that none of the sources of the Song to David are to be found in Masonic symbolism. 'The suggestion that the letters are Masonic symbols should be set aside. There is no evidence for it; rather the reverse. A writer in Miscellanea Latomorum (October 1924) states: "I am unable to offer any suggestion as to the reason for selection these particular letters of the Greek alphabet." The Curator of the Grand Lodge Library, London, through whose courtesy I was shown this article, adds: "I, too, am defeated in spite of my familiarity with the ritual of numerous masonic degrees."' Smart was a Freemason, but we are inclined to agree with Devlin that any interpretation of the Song to David that relies solely on Masonic symbolism is in danger of being far-fetched."

3. What Sherbo states (p. 221): "Smart's name is linked with a curious work of this same year entitled A Defence of Freemasonry, a refutation of another Free-masonic work, Ahiman Rezon, published earlier in 1765. The actual 'defence' covers about forty pages and has appended to it "A Collection of Masons Odes and Songs. Most of them entirely new;" the pamphlet was printed for the author and sold by W. Flexney and by E. Hood. While the 'defence' has been claimed for Smart, there is no solid evidence for the attribution. (ref 36 to Transactions, the American Lodge of Research, Free and Accepted Masons, V, No. 3 (April, 1951-January, 1952), p. 366-367) Last int he collection osongs is a "A Song by Brother C. Smart, A. M., Tune, "Ye frolicksome Sparks of the Game'," which confirms Smart's participation in Masonic affairs, but does nothing for his reputation as a poet. (ref 37 to the original song)"

4. What Williamson states (p. 478): "Song ('A MASON is great and respected')

Headed 'Song by Brother C. Smart, A. M. in A Defence of Free-Masonry (1765). Smart declares himself a Freemason in JA, B109. Although an unidentified 'Mason's Song' was in the programme of Mrs Midnight's Concert and Oratory on 14 Apr. 1853 (possibly a type for 1753) (London Stage, Pt. 4, p. 365), affinities between the present poem and Smart's later religious poetry suggest that it was written in 1764-1765. His concern seems to be to vindicate freemasonry against contemporary charges that it was irreconcilable with Christianity (see JA, B 109 n).

B 109 note: "Free and Accepted Masons was the title adopted by the constituted society of freemasons in 1717. Smart's claim to be a 'Mason in Christ' is asserted in defiance of the non-doctrinal creed of the 18th-c. freemasonry, and of papal condemnation: freemasonry was proscribed by the Roman church in 1751. William Hutchinson, in The Spirit of Masonry (1775) was at pains to defend the Christian faith of freemasons."

5. What Anderson states (p. 80-81):

"A last source is the Masonic observance. Smart was a Mason, as he demonstrated in Jubilate Agno and the Song, which contain Masonic symbols obscure to the uninitiated. Thus Smart was able to evoke more than one meaning from a particular image or section, lending special richness to the Song. An example can be seen in the passage of the Song concerning the pillars of knowledge. The immediate source of the reference to the pillars is a text of Proverbs IX supposed to have been written by David. Other references occur in Near Eastern mystery religions, in cabalistic and neo-Platonic works which interested Smart, and in legends of freemasonry. A Masonic lodge is reputed to stand on the three pillars of wisdom, strength, and beauty. (ref 8 to Broadbent, J.B. "Commentary" in Smart, Christopher. A Song to David, ed. J.B. Broadbent Cambridge, 1960. p. 36)"

Now, something important - Devlin, the original denier that all of the symbols could be matched up to freemasonry, was proven wrong by John Rose's analysis of each of the symbols and how they match up to freemasonry. And this is not including Christopher Smart: Poet and Mason or British Poets and Secret Societies which devotes an entire chapter to Smart as a Freemason. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:34, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

6. Added: What Ainsworth states (p. 121-122):

"Move obvious, however, is that the whole passage is a piece of Masonic symbolism (ref 25 to "For evidence that Smart was a Mason, see Mr. Stead's Rejoice in the Lamb p. 25 and the Jubilate Agno itself.) - its exact meaning necessarily unintelligible to the uninitiated.

Grave legend in Smart's day put the origin of Freemasonry coeval with the creation of the world, which was itself created according to Masonic principles. Not inconsistent then is Masonic symbolism in a poem addressed to David, himself a Mason and planner of the Temple at Jerusalem. A recent critic comments, 'The seven pillars are themselves a Masonic emblem, Alpha and Gamme, taken together, suggest the Compasses and Square; Eta may stand for Jacob's ladder, Theta for the Eye, and Iota for the Plumbline. Obviously, the creator is imagined as the architect or mason of the universe.' (ref 26 to Odell Shepard and Paul Spencer Wood, English Prose and Poetry, 1660-1800. Boston: Houghton Mifflin Co., 1934. p. 1020. The notes for A Song to David in this volume are perhaps the best yet printed.) Other symbols must be meaningful to the enlightened - the trowel, spade, and loom of Stanza XXXIII; the 'foot, and chapitre, and niche' of Stanza XXXV; and, of course, the 'infernal draught' (with the sense of 'plan') of Stanza XXXVII. The next stanza, concluding the passage, carries out the same idea of David, the Mason."

7. What Curry states (p. 57):

"Mention of the Temple introduces another thread: that of Smart's Freemasonry. In Jubilate Agno he had asserted

For I am the Lord's builder and free and accepted MASON in CHRIST JESUS. (B109)

In his Lexicon of Freemasonry A.G. Mackey devotes several pages to a consideration of Solomon's Temple, explaining that, although Solomon built it, it was David who planned it, and David was not only therefore to be regarded as a Mason, but as possibly having been the first Grand Master.

We also read in Mackey that 'There are in Freemasonry twelve original points which form the basis of the system, and comprehend the whole ceremony of initiation. These twelve points refer the twelve parts of the ceremony of initiation to the twelve tribes of Israel.' (ref 16 to Mackey) The appearances of both these concepts within the opening lines of Smart's A Song to David cannot be without significance, and it is a thread that will be taken up later."

An old source and a recent source. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:03, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I removed a lot of text, but left this in case anyone wanted to refer to these quotes in a rewrite of the pertinent sections. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:24, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

The Hop-Garden

Moved DYK template for The Hop-Garden. (- Ottava Rima)

-BorgQueen (talk) 18:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Cool article. Thank you!! jengod (talk) 20:25, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry - somehow, my new section didn't open as one ... sorry if I set of any DefCon 2 watchlists ... Audemus Defendere (talk) 11:52, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

No good deed goes unpunished - or at least without further imposition ...

Your comments at Incidents#Dem1970:_Legal_Threat Incidents#Dem1970:_Legal_Threat indicate at least a little insight. And for a brief moment of flattery, the depth of your English Lit evidenced on your user page makes me envious and insecure in equal parts. And that, from a former next door neighbor of Walter Jackson Bate.

The situation has gotten out of hand. If you have a minute, check out the latest Talk entries and the current edit at Steve Windom. This all got started because I asked for help with a legal threat by Dem1970 (and cf., 71.198.183.184, and his history). I was, perhaps naively, waiting on talk to work, and cooler heads to help collaberatively craft compromise language. Now someone has picked the ball up from WP:BLP and (from my perspective) engaged in some shrill, unmerited attacks on me and unilaterally bypassed talk, consensus, &c. and edited the main article even more in the subject's favor than Dem1970 did. And Luna seems to be on a 72 hour pass.

I just feel like the mugging victim in the Keystone Kops who calls the cops, only to have the cop start beating me when he gets to the crime scene. Am I close to being as far out of line on the original article as - well, a person who is not Dem, says? I'm not recruiting folks to jump in the mayhem. (Neither would I discourage it, if anyone were so inclined.) Far from it, I am on the verge of leaving the Bedlam of Wikipedia to its residents. I suppose I am just looking for some calm feedback on the original article, and on the Wiki machinations here, and maybe a valid reason for staying in the mess. Any thoughts? And thanks in advance, and again. Audemus Defendere (talk) 12:42, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Your Email

Hi Ottava, Thanks for your email. I think I did what you asked yesterday...clarifying that I was not making a legal threat and stopping my participation in an "edit war."

Other editors have now jumped in to this and side with me. Cleo123 is right on, in my opinion! If you're interested in determining how biased Audemus is against the subject, read his/her historical edits and comments on the talk page. I think it's funny that Audemus feels like a mugging victim when he is publically beating on the victim.

Best,

Dem1970 (talk) 15:38, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I've responded. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:25, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

"If a statement is sourced, then it should be entered." That is not correct. Appropriate weight should be given to events. Also, fringe theories should certainly not be given equal play...or mentioned at all, depending on the circumstance. Just because you can source something doesn't mean it belongs in an article. Dem1970 (talk) 17:13, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Smart followup

That's good to know, actually, because I didn't know that the records were separated from the outset. I can get the poem out of the pamphlet if you want/need it for anything, and I just need to go get that AQC copy for the early article. MSJapan (talk) 02:22, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:BLP

Hi there. Could you please read this. If you help provide information, I will broker a version of the page that significantly expands on the topic and ensures that everyone will be comfortable. However, I ask that you refrain from talking about previous edits to the page during this process, so that we can all work together as a team. Thanks. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 18:48, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I appreciate the good spirit in which your remarks have been left. I also appreciate your willingness to assist in resolving the current dispute. I see from your editorial history that you have only really been actively editing Wikipedia for a few months, do not appear to be a member of the biography project and have unfortunately been blocked multiple times during that short time frame. I'm sure that you are a fine editor, but you are still a relative novice to this forum, comparatively speaking. I have read your remarks on various talk pages related to this subject matter and am somewhat concerned by statements you've made that seem to fly in the face of policies relating to WP:BLP, WP:LIBEL, WP:STALK, WP:NOT and WP:HARASS. I'm sure you mean well, but I'm not sure that you are an appropriate person to be taking charge of this discussion. This is the biography of a living person, and because there is a history of litigation related to defamation, it needs to be handled with the utmost sensitivity and respect. Clearly, one user is harassing the other. You should not be feeding trolls and encouraging the creation of stand alone articles on non-notable events that serve no useful purpose other than harassment. Nor should you be chastising people for objecting to the further dissemination of court proven libel! There is no compromise, nor is there any amicable negotiation or compromise on Wikipedia when it comes to libel or defamation printed about living people - NONE WHAT-SO-EVER. I know you are new to the discussion, and perhaps you haven't had the time to thoroughly review the contribution histories, I suggest you do. You may find me harsh - and that's fine. I AM harsh when it comes to libel, defamation of character and harassment issues - because somebody has to be! Our policies are clear cut and we need to enforce them in order to protect Wikipedia. Cleo123 (talk) 07:56, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure you've researched a lot, but obviously not enough; I have quite a lot of admin support behind this mediation. Also, if you note, we suggested creating a page for that "court proven libel". Ottava Rima (talk) 12:01, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

What mediation? What are you talking about? Are you saying that some admin asked you to mediate something here? Please, provide me with some links to substantiate your claim. And if you do start any article of that sort, I am confident that it will be deleted in very short order. Please, do not attempt to disrupt Wikipedia simply to prove a WP:POINT, as you could possibly find yourself facing disciplinary action. Oh, and BTW - "mediators" are suppose to be neutral. Cleo123 (talk) 05:43, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Ottava, you're dealing with a user whose history indicates he/she is more interested in having his/her way than any sort of mediation. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:List_of_notable_converts_to_Christianity/Archive_6 for an example of a mediator's conclusions regarding Cleo and another (since-indefinitely banned) user that Cleo was tag-team editing with: "Cleo and Bus stop, you two are indeed very loud, but talking a lot does not mean that there are any more of you... Everyone has been rude, but [Cleo123 and BusStop] have shirked all attempts at coming to a compromise, twisted other users' words in very obvious ways, and been outwardly rude to everyone else involved." That almost sums up my experience dealing with Cleo, minus the intermittent false accusations of sockpuppetry and very troublesome (and very frequent) mis-application of WP:BLP. I was in the middle of submitting an RFC against this user before he/she abruptly took a wiki break, guess it's time to re-dig up my draft. Wikipedia is better without folks who intentionally wield WP:BLP as a sophistic excuse to be rude to others and cause conflict. Tendancer (talk) 04:19, 3 July 2008 (UTC)