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Reliable source

Is the parapsychology association a reliable enough source for this statement to be in the lead?

"Some parapsychologists have reported evidence of psychic ability of extra-sensory perception and psychokinesis."

I say no.

ScienceApologist (talk) 22:49, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

The Parapsychological association is the ultimate reliable source for what parapsychologists think. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:58, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Why? ScienceApologist (talk) 12:50, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

That's 100% obvious. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 20:54, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Recent edits

I have reverted to the longstanding consensus phrasing of the lead/article. There was never any consensus for ScienceApologist's edits. I also removed a source which was used in a way that the source did not intend, after first trying an edit which made the text consistent with what that source was saying. I also re-inserted phrasing which said that the scientific community outside parapsychology does not accept evidence for psychic phenomena. For the status of parapsychology in Wikipedia, please refer to this Three layer cake with frosting. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:56, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

The source indeed appears to be problematic. The source is quoting a third party's comment in a public debate, but without adequate context to tell whether it is an expert opinion, a misinterpreted off-the-cuff remark, or something else.

However, it looks like you two are edit warring. Please don't. --FOo (talk) 05:31, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

No, the next step will be tagging and DR. The source has more than the problems you say, because it is making the point that rhetoric was used by a skeptic to skew the debate, whereas here it was used to source something "reported".

"Just as Victorian anthropologists were apt to think shamans merely crazy, so some psychiatrists and

clergymen have dramatically or unreflectingly asserted that many mediums are mentally disturbed and probably certifiable. Such assertions are as mistaken in the latter case as in the former. (p. 21) John Maddox, the editor of Nature, in a debate that took place at the University of Liverpool, argued that "psychic impressions are more likely to be hallucinations rather than true accounts of the world and that as such, they are probably symptomatic of schizophrenia." Accordingly, he thinks that to the extent that many of these phenomena are conceivably and quite probably the reports of people suffering from real organic physical diseases of that kind, it is really rather cruel that we should humour them by taking their reports seriously when appropriate medication would help them better. (Maddox, 1990, p. 22). Although there may be important insights to be gained from the relationship between some mental health problems and reports of paranormal experiences, a statement of the kind above insinuates that paranormal experiences are only legitimate as a symptom of psychosis. The inclusion of paranormal experiences under the umbrella of a psychopathology metaphor forces the issue of the irrationality of such experiences. Maddox’s speech both intimates sympathy for the sufferer and encourages a view of unusual experiences as indications of pathology. Lakoff and Johnson (1980) note that it is the people in power at any given time who reserve the right to create

the metaphors that people will live by."

Also, the edit used WP:WTA "reported," without even any attribution. It was weaseled, making statements for the "scientific community" and had other problems. The dubious tag even acted like parapsychologists aren't a good source for their own opinion. It was just full of problems. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 06:02, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I hear you. I agree the source doesn't belong. But don't edit-war anyway. --FOo (talk) 06:33, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry, I agree. Like I said, WP:DR (: ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 07:04, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. The source points out that many have accused mediums of having mental illness. This is a fact as illustrated by the quote. This deliberate head-into-sand thrusting by Foo and Martinphi is simply game-playing. It is clear that it is an assertable FACT that those claiming psychic powers have been accused of mental illness. The rest is just gravy.ScienceApologist (talk) 13:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Be civil. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 20:54, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

POV war

The source is hardly the only issue we're dealing with here. Why is parapsychology mentioned at all in the lead of this article? Psychic powers are notable well beyond their treatment with the discredited pseudoscientists of the middle of the last century. What we need to do is describe the fact that psychic powers have certain attributes that believers think they have and that these properties have no scientific evidence in the mean sense. That is what should be in the lead. The sourcing can come later, and in any case, since the lead is supposed to be a summary, sourcing is something that shouldn't be done parochially but instead should be worked out as a secondary matter. ScienceApologist (talk) 13:11, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Weasels

You don't have to be an expert in this area Psychic to see that this paragraph does not comply to WP:NPOV in part because it is loaded with weasel wording. I don't want to get in to the discussion too far here because I'm not an expert, but I think these words/phrases are worth noting.

The existence of psychic abilities is disputed by the scientific community, and have attributed demonstrations of psychic occurrences to be intentional trickery or self delusion.[1] Some parapsychologists[who?] have reported that their experiments to test for extra-sensory perception and psychokinesis have yielded evidence[dubious – discuss] of psychic ability.[2] The scientific community outside parapsychology does not accept these experiments as sufficient evidence for psychic functioning partly due to the intrinsic unlikelihood of psychic phenomena.[3][4]

Note: The whole, entire scientific community? .... that's pretty far fetched unless someone is polling all of the scientists in the world ... this is a huge generalization, which is what weasel wording creates. The syntax of this sentence also implies that this so-called entire scientific community thinks these powers to be "intentional trickery or self delusion", another gross generalization.

The paragraph as a whole contributes to a definite POV sense in that it appears to debunk any psychic abilities. Whether such abilities exist cannot and should not be an issue here at this point in the article, but the neutral reporting of information is. Later in the article information on the "debunking" side of the information is presented. The paragraph is heavily, non-neutral in tone and that is definitely non=compliant.(olive (talk) 15:42, 3 October 2008 (UTC))

The fact is, psychic abilities have no scientific mechanism so their existence is not acknowledged by those who study related phenomena. The generalization makes sense if we are going to be taking seriously the fact that there is no scientific acknowledgment that "psychic powers" exist. Rewording may be possible, but certainly this is no weasel word situation. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:06, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Technically as per Wikipedia this is weasel wording. I still don't think that the existence of psychic abilities is the issue, and whether they have a scientific mechanism seems a bit of a blanket statement since for starters there is a fairly wide filed considered to be psychic, and debate on what the term "psychic" actually includes. For example there may be certain so called abilities that in the past were considered psychic but which now given the technologies in brain/body "scanning" are now commonplace ideas. Unless those parameters, that is, what constitutes psychic are established, and at this point in time they aren't, "no scientific mechanisms" is quite a general statement. For those reasons, complete neutrality here would seem to be key, and that, in this part of the lede there is no sense of POV. That said, I would think there are ways to reword this as you say, so the weasely words/phrases are removed and the paragraph reads as neutral. Just a thought, or two, or three.(olive (talk) 16:29, 3 October 2008 (UTC))

No, I think you're getting confused here. You seem to think that "psychic abilities" are acknowledged to exist simply because people believe in them. Then you say because some people confused cold reading with psychic abilities that this is somehow a tacit acknowledgment that psychic abilities exist. In fact, the scientific community evinces a disinterested skepticism with regards to psychic abilities in much the same way it evinces a disinterested skepticism with regards to the existence of ghosts, angels, or invisible pink unicorns. The difference is that a "psychic ability" is claimed by the people advocating the existence of such, to have direct observational consequences which receive no legitimacy in the mainstream. This point must be made abundantly clear if we are going to do any service to the reader. Do not confuse "neutrality" with "balance". You may feel that your opinion about the existence of psychic abilities is somehow being marginalized by stating the facts that there isn't scientific evidence or, indeed, any acknowledgment within the scientific community of those psychic abilities, but the fact that this happens must be communicated to our readers if we are to maintain proper neutrality. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:03, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Science doesn't just study correlations between purported causes and effects. It also studies the mechanisms by which a specific cause leads to an effect. For instance, in medical science, it isn't enough to just say that the use of a particular drug correlates with relief from a disease; one has to also describe the mechanism by which the drug works. For instance, beta blockers reduce blood pressure; but why? Because they block the action of epinephrine on particular receptors.

Historically, it hasn't always been immediately possible to understand the mechanism by which a particular phenomenon works. For a long time, physicists (such as Isaac Newton) studied the behavior of light without knowing about photons or the quantum physics that explain certain behaviors of light. But they worked with some idea of the mechanism: even luminiferous aether, although it turned out to be wrong, explained certain aspects of light.

Likewise, it's a common misconception about evolutionary biology, prevalent among creationists, to think that biologists are engaged in attempting to prove the existence of evolution. They aren't. That happened long ago. Today's evolutionary biologists study the mechanisms of evolution: the processes by which it takes place. We already know that evolution happens; the interesting part for the past century has been by what means it happens.

Similarly, a scientific study of claims to psychic phenomena would not content itself to merely look for correlations that suggest the existence of psychic abilities. It would have to also look for the mechanisms by which these abilities would work. It wouldn't focus solely on the question, "Do psychic abilities exist?" any more than physicists stop with, "Does light exist?" or biologists stop with, "Does evolution exist?" -- it would go on to ask, "By what mechanism do psychic abilities work?" --FOo (talk) 17:34, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this and also that science is not some frozen environment but is rather, organic.(And I 'm not talking about vegetables here :o) ), Science in its most overarching would seem to be about the processes, the mechanisms, not whether there are black holes but what that black hole is, does, functions, was formed, and its implications . In fact SA, I was actually not judging this paragraph in any way from my own experience or belief in the psychic, which might be described as a healthy, but also thoughtful skepticism . I've seen some pretty interesting, inexplainable things, but I've also seen hysteria, suggestibility, and straight out lies. My concern is that the paragraph creates a sense of the skeptical in the lede of an article so that neutrality in terms of POV is lost.I wasn't confusing balance with neutrality or using neutrality in the sense of the material in the paragraph, but rather that the quality of the wording creates a non-neutral sense, and immediately would serve to prejudice the reader. I think that by simply focusing on rewriting, so that generalizations are removed, and they are weak in any kind of writing, the whole paragraph would swing to a more neutral sensibility. I think its appropriate to have something in the lede about the skeptical view its just about how much, its sources, and the language used to describe it.(olive (talk) 19:36, 3 October 2008 (UTC))

Yes, no one knows any theory which would explain/give a mechanism for psi. Psi (parapsychology). Science is half observation and half theory. But just because there isn't a theory doesn't mean science isn't being done, nor does it mean that nothing has been observed. There is some knowledge of mechanism, in that they are said to come about through mental faculties. Some parapsychologists believe that they have some idea of a theory, but personally I don't' think they are there yet. However, I should say that parapsychologists have within the last few years stopped focusing on "proof" studies and started trying to find out mechanism- it's as major trend. Like the article says, the consensus is that some forms of psi exist. But, as the quackwatch source says, because there is not real theory, it isn't accepted. However we can't say it is rejected, either. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 22:16, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

You say that parapsychologists have "stopped focusing on 'proof' studies and started trying to find out mechanism". Who? Where? What are the major hypotheses? The best way to demonstrate that this is science is to demonstrate that there is a productive research program underway, producing testable hypotheses and reproducible evidence for them.

I assume that we are in the early days of parapsychological research, so there should be some analogy to the early days of scientific physics or biology. In the early days of scientific optics, there was testable speculation as to the mechanisms by which light worked. The original speculative hypothesis (luminiferous aether) was tested and debunked; other ideas followed, leading to the modern understanding of light as elementary quantum particles (photons).

Likewise, in the early days of evolutionary biology, Darwin and other biologists created testable hypotheses about the mechanisms of evolution. Lacking knowledge of genetics, they came up with hypotheses like blending inheritance that (just like luminiferous aether) had to be tested, debunked, and improved upon before evolutionary biology could make much progress. This is part of the scientific process. What are the analogous hypotheses in parapsychology? --FOo (talk) 22:42, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

You know I'm not an expert in parapsychology, and this is beyond my ability to answer well. If you like I can email someone who could answer your question. But just here and now, I'm not trying to prove parapsychology is science- I can't do that to the satisfaction of people here. I could say that the major skeptics, even James Randi, call it a science. Also, it gets into the question of "what is science." So are you really interested, and should I get someone to answer? ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 22:52, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, sure, I think it would make a good contribution to the parapsychology article, and to the "Research" section of this article, to know what the current research program is. Rather than argue over whether it is "a science", or whether some expert or another claims that it is, we could present the evidence and let the reader decide for themselves. --FOo (talk) 02:10, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, there is all sorts of information about the field which is just not being put in because it is under attack, every word. It's just too much hassle to put it in. I could put in loads of good information, but do not do it because it's just to difficult. Case in point in the last few edits by Shoemaker. BTW the removed quote accurately summarized the thesis of the article, giving both sides of the equation [1]. All you have to do is read the summary at the top to see that the logic is "yes, they have evidence which would normally be good enough, but it isn't good enough because the intrinsic unlikelihood of psychic phenomena." The quote says in part "Skeptics mostly still feel that the intrinsic implausibility is so great that nothing short of airtight and well-repeated research would be sufficient to support ESP. Little or none of the existing research rises to that level, so we remain skeptical." ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 03:20, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Like it or lump it, the fact that people think that psychic abilities exist and that there is "evidence" for it is derided by the people who get to decide what is and isn't interesting about the observable universe. To try to "balance" this away from NPOV or ascribe it to a "skeptical POV" is like trying to ascribe someone who is writing about circumnavigation of the world matter-of-factually as having a "skeptical POV" because they don't accommodate the yo-yos who believe in a flat earth. It's the same ball of wax, it's the same bollocks being promoted by the crowd crowing about their personal interactions with "some pretty interesting, inexplainable things". ScienceApologist (talk) 07:19, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, gee SA. Nice, friendly, thoughtful, civil comment to someone who is attempting to indicate there is no POV here for me. I could care less about this article 's topic, although I did care about the non-compliant quality. Dealing with my comments this way does not deflect away from my points, and unfortunately your treatment of someone who would really like to collaborate with you, indicates bias and POV that seems lacking in depth and thought. I am not promoting anything, but obviously you are. You have very little idea what I think, and your ignorance in thinking you do and in wording it as you do above is unfortunate and sad. (olive (talk) 17:48, 4 October 2008 (UTC))

I've posted my response to SA here on his talk page, since it has less relevance to this article and more to the relation between skepticism and parapsychology, and the need for skeptics to address the issues rather than be dismissive and insulting. --FOo (talk) 22:01, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

To clarify. There seems to be some mistaken notion that someone who comes onto a page like this and attempts to deal with POV is a parapsychologist. I'm afraid it would be an insult to the parapsychologists to have me thrown into their ranks. I know almost nothing about it, but I do know POV when I see it. That was my concern.(olive (talk) 22:35, 4 October 2008 (UTC))

I agree, it's an unfortunate if you're not with us you're against us attitude... --Ludwigs2 19:22, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

rephrasing?

this sentance: "Early examples of psychics include the Oracle of Apollo at Delphi who, according to Greek mythology, provided prophecies from Apollo himself, [4] or Nostradamus, a French apothecary who is said to have had the ability to predict the future." while I don't object to it content-wise, I do have to point out that it's a bit misleading. the Oracle of Delphi and Nostradamus are not examples of psychics per se (since the concept wasn't even invented in their day), but rather individuals who are pointed to because they did things that we might in our day consider to be psychic. not making that distinction misconstrues their place in the discussion. how can we fix that? --Ludwigs2 18:53, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

The Oracle of Apollo at Delphi, who according to Greek mythology, was thought to be the mouthpiece of Apollo himself, and Nostradamus a French apothecary who is said to have had the ability to predict the future." are examples of early prophecy.

I'm not convinced there isn't a little OR here...At any rate another way to word it.(olive (talk) 19:49, 5 October 2008 (UTC))

oh I think there's more than a little OR - I just don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. your approach isnt bad, but it needs to be tied in to Psychic, somehow. maybe: "Researchers into psychic phenomena point to historical figures - such as the Oracle of Apollo at Delphi, who according to Greek mythology,was thought to be the mouthpiece of Apollo himself, or Nostradamus, a French apothecary who is said to have had the ability to predict the future." - to suggest that this is not a new idea."? --Ludwigs2 22:21, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Better . I was aware I wasn't connecting to Psychic but wasn't sure how to do it unless there is a source that says this. The problem may be do, "Researchers into psychic phenomena point to historical figures..." Is there a source? At any rate, I like your version(olive (talk) 22:30, 5 October 2008 (UTC))

I'm pretty fine with phrasing,s, so long as the skeptical view isn't lef tout too much. Saying they definitely, unambiguously did predict the future - bad. Saying that people believed they predicted the future - fine. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 22:41, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I cannot live with "skeptics." Therefore, based on Ludwig's known interpretation of WP:CONSENSUS that only one person has to complain, and that defeats the consensus, I'm complaining. Skeptic is a term used by anti-science types to imply that scientists ignore know facts like magical paranormal behavior. Since Psychics deny science, then let's be fair and call this whole article scientific denialism. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 23:46, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Ludwigs, you are a complete and utter disruptive editor. How dare you make another revision without have the maturity to discuss it here. You deserve to be permanently blocked from ever editing this article. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 23:49, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

OrangeMarlin - as I said in the edit summary, 'skeptics believe' is undeniably true, but 'scientists state' requires a stronger level of proof. I'm more than willing to use your phrasing, but I need some kind of source that indicates that all scientists say this, unambiguously. can you provide the source, so we can include it?

Shoemaker - that sounds good to me. I didn't put this reference in, though - I was just trying to preserve what was already in the document - so I'm not quite sure how to work the skeptic POV in more. let me read through the sources carefully and see what I can figure out. --Ludwigs2 23:56, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

OrangeMarlin, stop being uncivil. And no, you can't find a source that says what all scientists believe. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 00:00, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

For best results, let's please keep discussions focused on the article, and not on the editors, thanks. --Elonka 00:10, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Martin, because every scientist knows "psychic" is anti-science and can't be tested, they don't all jump on board. You can't prove a negative, precisely because no one spends time disproving it. Not every scientist studies fossils, yet 99.4% of scientists accept evolution as a fact. Same here. How about you find one source that shows a single reasonable scientist thinks this field actually exists. By your and Ludwig's logic, any unsourced statement can be put into any article as long as there's no negative proof. Doesn't work. Oh, I'm about as civil as a multi-blocked editor deserves. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 00:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

"Freeman Dyson, one of the most respected scientists of our day, recently wrote in the New York Review of Books that he was open to the possibility of psychic powers that might lie beyond the realm of scientific investigation.” [2] (olive (talk) 00:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC))

I have revised the section on The Delphic Oracle to include a little more information as was there originally. Since the Delphic Oracle was not one person but many over time I thought to remove people and to add priestesses by way of explanation. I have also added a source that notes the Oracle and its connection to "psychic". Although, I think citing Broad's book The Oracle (Penguin Press) noted in the article would be stronger, I don't have the book, and haven't read it so include this article. I believe the addition is neutral in terms of tone. That's the extent of my knowledge in this article (Greece), so good luck with the rest.(olive (talk) 01:35, 6 October 2008 (UTC))

... and this revision is based mostly on the suggestions of other editors above.(olive (talk) 01:37, 6 October 2008 (UTC))

looks good to me. --Ludwigs2 01:40, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I edited just now to make sure that it's clear that the term "psychic" refers to either stage magic or ESP, and removed qualifiers which are completely unnecessary if this is the definition. Also removed the incorrect dubious tag, as the statement concerns what parapsychologists say. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:02, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

SH why would you revert something that is historical in Nature and cite WP:Fringe. You reverted a reference as well as the whole thing and didn't even comment.(olive (talk) 02:23, 6 October 2008 (UTC))

I apologise, but that's a pretty minor source at best. Does an obscure weekly internet newspaper actually reach the standards necessary for reliable sources? Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 02:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Partially agree. The source is not impeccable as I noted above. It is, however, Greek and that's what we're taking about here, and it notes a book on this topic by a respected author. I felt that for now given this paragraph shouldn't be contentious, that this source would be adequate. I could cite the book. I felt that noting information about the Greek Oracle could not cause an edit war or I wouldn't have bothered. I was attempting along with Ludwig's input to make that section a little stronger, and to steer clear of the science/[pseudoscience arguments. The best laid plans.....(olive (talk) 03:01, 6 October 2008 (UTC))

ArbCom Pseudoscience case

As a reminder, this article now falls within the scope of the "Pseudoscience" case that was heard by the Wikipedia Arbitration Committee. As such, uninvolved administrators are empowered to place discretionary sanctions as needed, to ensure the smooth running of the project. See Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Discretionary sanctions:

Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict (defined as articles which relate to pseudoscience, broadly interpreted) if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project.

Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision by an uninvolved administrator; and, where appropriate, should be counseled on specific steps that he or she can take to improve his or her editing in accordance with relevant policies and guidelines.

What does this mean for most of the editors here? Hopefully, nothing.  :) For those editors who are participating in a civil way, assuming good faith, trying to build consensus, and doing their best to ensure that additions to the article properly reflect what is in reliable sources and do not give undue weight to minority viewpoints, there's nothing to worry about. Any editors who do not comply with these Wikipedia best practices, may receive warnings on their talkpages, which may escalate to a ban on editing this article (or in the worst cases, bans on editing in the topic area, or possibly having their entire account access blocked). But that's several steps down the line, and there would be clear warnings before something like that would happen. So in the meantime, please carry on with editing as normal. If anyone has any questions though, please feel free to ask! --Elonka 00:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

The POV pushing is getting pretty fierce, Elonka. There was a longstanding consensus that the term psychic is defined as both ESP and stage magic, and can be used without qualifiers. Not to mention that we went through an ArbCom on the same subject which says "A psychic may not have psychic abilities, nor does use of the term imply that such abilities exist" [3]. There is POV pushing to say "scientists say," as opposed to scientists outside the field of parapsychology have not accepted. There is extreme incivility. There is edit warring. There is re-insertion of the dubious tag on a statement which merely repeats what some have said [4]. These are precisely and exactly the same issues which we argued over before that ArbCom. They are not new issues, in any way whatsoever. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:09, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Per WP:NPOV/FAQ#Pseudoscience, "The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science. Pseudoscience is a social phenomenon and therefore may be significant, but it should not obfuscate the description of the main views, and any mention should be proportionate and represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, should explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly." - This is what I'm attempting to uphold. By giving more weight to the fringe field of Parapsychology than to science as a whole, the changes made caused the article to promote a fringe point of view, in violation of Wikipedia policy. We should certainly include the parapsychological view, but we have to do so proportionately, and not treat it as more important than mainstream science. Substantially weakening the mainstream view, while adding strong statements from fringe publications and the like emphasising the fringe views is not compatible with this, nor is treating what is at best a tiny minority in the scientific community, and at worse outside the scientific community (parapsychologists, a term which encompasses both fringe scientists and people outside of science) as having views equal in importance to the mainstream views, and hence insisting that they be given equal weight with the mainstream scientific view. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 02:15, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the information, it helps to get a more well-rounded view of the issues here. Which steps in dispute resolution has this article undergone so far? Any RfCs, noticeboard threads, or attempts at mediation? --Elonka 02:21, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Shoemaker -It may be worth clarifying, but my sense is that the passage you cited refers to references to pseudoscience within the context of mainstream articles, not within articles about pseudoscientific topics. sure, psychic phenomena should not be treated as equivalent to other ideas on a page that talks about communication media, but that doesn't suggest that scientific viewpoints should be the predominant voices on a page about psychic phenomena, since science really doesn't have a whole lot to say about the issue. or am I misunderstanding your point? --Ludwigs2 02:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Per WP:UNDUE: "Minority views can receive attention on pages specifically devoted to them—Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. But on such pages, though a view may be described, the article should make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint wherever relevant, and must not reflect an attempt to rewrite majority-view content strictly from the perspective of the minority view." I don't think there's really any room for argument from a policy level here. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 02:30, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Shoemaker, I have explained before that this deals with the presentation of pseudoscience within articles on mainstream scientific topics. Please don't mis-apply it. I prefer to deal with Psychic more as a social phenomenon, which presents all viewpoints in a cool manner, and does not try to decide the issues. We need to present the viewpoints, not take sides. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:38, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

To make that clearer: who is your majority? The majority believe in psychic paranormal phenomena. We do not present things merely from the perspective of science, nor of mainstream science. We present all POVs ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Martin, but that's ridiculous. You can't claim parapsychology is a minor, disputed field of science with one breath, then say that the rules for a fringe field of science don't apply to you, because it's not science. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 02:52, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

See above: we are an encyclopedia of world knowledge, not of WP:SPOV. Your majority can only mean science. But that isn't where this article is coming from. Also see what Ludwigs said above. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Martin, you have tio obey policy. WP:NPOV/FAQ is a policy. The section you are claiming does not apply to articles on pseudoscientific topics begins "How are we to write articles about pseudoscientific topics, about which majority scientific opinion is that the pseudoscientific opinion is not credible and doesn't even really deserve serious mention?" after which comes the text you claim does not apply to articles on pseudoscientific topics. You are simply wrong here. The policy explicitly applies to articles on topics such as this. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 02:59, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

The section has been questioned in the past, and the bits you quote edit warred in. It was written, I believe, by a group who are advocates of WP:SPOV. It is a statement of SPOV, as it claims that the majority view is always the mainstream scientific view. On the other hand- OK. You're completely right. We're dealing here with a topic which comes under the purview of the science of parapsychology. The consensus of the parapsychological association therefore represents the majority. Note that this is not what I want. I want to deal with this in a fair way, but the only thing that is going to happen if we deal with this as purely a scientific topic, or push the majority scientific view, is that the scientific discipline which is relevant -parapsychology- is the majority view. You will have to make the argument that parapsychology is not a science. In this, you will be up against James Randi, the ArbCom, the AAAS, and others. As I said, the FAQ is dreadfully flawed: it should make plain that it is dealing with pseudoscience in articles on mainstream topics. Otherwise, it either advocates SPOV by making mainstream science ipso facto the majority in all fringe articles, or else at least in this case it makes parapsychology the majority. Such is not a desirable outcome for Wikipedia, and so I advise that the FAQ be changed. I tried to change it, but certain people think that SPOV should be the way of Wikipedia. It is also, you may note, against the recent clarification which the Arbitrators gave us on the Paranormal ArbCom, where they noted that all the said views are to be presented in a cool and impartial way. Policy which is against policy, edit-warred into a seldom-noticed FAQ, does not work. We could take this case to mediation/ArbCom, if you wish, for it is a major issue. But in the end, we will not come out with making mainstream science ipso facto a majority. Is that what you want to push here? ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 04:00, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Elonka, this article has undergone everything in the past, on the same issues, including an ArbCom. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:39, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Is there a list? I am particularly interested in mediation, RfC, and noticeboard threads. --Elonka 02:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

No, no list. I'd hope someone with a decent internet connection would assemble one if that is necessary. I would guess dozens of things could be dug up in the history of this talk page. Also, you can't isolate it. The same issues were dealt with on other related articles, like ESPPP. What should I do? I have a terrible connection speed (two kilobits per second). ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 03:01, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

qualifiers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Psychic/Archive_4#Apparently_or_not_apparently

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Psychic/Archive3#.22Purported.22

RfC:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Psychic/Archive_4#RfC:_Which_defining_sentence_is_better.3F

Other:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Psychic/Archive2#Parapsychology_is_not_a_field_of_science.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Psychic/Archive2#Ridiculous

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Psychic/Archive2#Parapsychology_is_a_science

These may not be all, by a long way, and the focus on this page in particular. But as I said, you can't separate this from the same issues discussed for years on other articles, and taken to ArbCom. See the loci here [5]. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 03:13, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

No hurry, take your time. Remember, There is no deadline. Anything that's done to the article can easily be fixed later. So just take a deep breath, exhale slowly, and concentrate on the longterm version of the article, not the short-term dramahz. :) --Elonka 03:49, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but we may be dealing with a larger issue here see my response above. Shoemaker is right about what he says about the FAQ above. See what you think of it. See what you think of the history of that section. I recall that jossi tried to change it also, and that I tried to change it. So we may need to go over and have a discussion about the FAQ. Now, let me assure you that that FAQ is the only statement of SPOV in WP policy. It will be defended to the death. So I would ask for your guidance on this, as it will without doubt go through mediation to ArbCom. It is a simple issue, but it is like the Holy Grail: armies will die for it. If you remove that from the FAQ, a whole era of WP dies with it, or withers. What do you think? ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 04:08, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Massive deletions

SH. You are making massive deletions to this article without discussion, or any kind of agreement or consensus. Please follow appropriate procedures for contentious articles.(olive (talk) 03:06, 6 October 2008 (UTC))

I'm sorry, Olive, but there are basic policies here, and the removed material was, by and large, either all added in the last week [6], not cited to reliable sources, or covered in the body text and thus unnecessary in that much detail within the lead. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 03:10, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

SH. Whatever the reason. You are deleting without discussion, and that's not appropriate action for any article let alone a contentious one.(olive (talk) 03:26, 6 October 2008 (UTC))

I wish you wouldn't use that abbreviation. I'm horrible with acronyms, and it always confuses me who you're talking to. I will point out that I also added five sources to the article that were malformed, and that one of the links was to a skeptical site that didn't seem to meet basic notability. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 03:34, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I apologize. I won't use the acronym again, and thanks for letting me know.(olive (talk) 03:44, 6 October 2008 (UTC))

Is it this link to Skeptic's Dictionary? It obviously meets notability requirements for having an article here, which, BTW, are not required for sources. They have lower eligibility requirements for inclusion, and notability is not one of them. -- Fyslee / talk 03:46, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's the one. Perhaps I'm ignorant of it, but I always thought it was just a couple people, not really related to any major groups. In any case, I'm not trying to be disruptive, just to keep pushing his article towards where it could be a GA. Sometimes this means a little trimming before expanding back, because we really do need decent sources, and I'm pretty sure there should at least be some decently-notable books on it we could use to present proponents' views. =) Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 03:49, 6 October 2008 (UTC)