Talk:Ulster Defence Regiment

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Changes

I've now made a start on thinning the cruft out of the article and have removed repetitious information, some allegations and counter allegations, even my own. In particlar I've removed a large section from "The Role of Ex B-Specials" which was a debate in the House of Commons in 1969 and was not contributing anything except large sections of text. The salient points from the debate have been kept. On all subjects I have left the facts in, properly explained, as original. None of this is an attempt at establishing a point of view, it's to make a leaner, stronger article. The Thunderer (talk) 10:24, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The missing inline refs in the "Criticism" section will be sourced tomorrow. The Thunderer (talk) 14:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Following your lead and reasoning I have made some changes too. BigDunc^Talk 18:17, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Changes which I largely agree with although I've restored several for the reasons given in the history. I'd be totally prepared to discuss the reasons for those restorations and provide a reference for the one on rural attacks. Perhaps you can see where I'm coming from now? There's been so much hassle over this article that we finished up with a lot of repetitions and cruft. It should be removed of course and we should work on making the article as solid as possible without having to revert to a load of accusations and counter accusations. Some accusations are very valid obviously, particularly the concerns about the B Specials in the early days and the loss of Catholic recruits. Perhaps if we can work together we can prune this article and refine the wording to make it a good encyclopedic piece? I'd like us to look at the section on "Criticism" if we can and get the cruft out of it. If you could leave the bare bones of it at the moment so we can decide what goes and what is relevant enough to stay in?The Thunderer (talk) 19:16, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Domer, you've made other additions to the article which are again simple accusations from Nationalists against the regiment. It's already established in the article that there is an issue in that area, it doesn't need constant repetition throughout. If you continue down this road it will appear as if you are trying to slant the article towards a Nationalist perspective. Can you try and introduce edits which are more neutral in perspective please and don't lean towards the Protestant/Catholic divide in Northern Ireland. That isn't what this article is about.The Thunderer (talk) 10:39, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Dunc, can we discuss the "Criticism" section please. What I'd like to do is to remove a lot of the cruft where allegations are made against Sinn Fein and the SDLP and replace them with a more concise form of wording. Perhaps the current references we have could still be useful and I have the refences in the regimental history about the SDLP campaign. What I'd like to see though is the information presented in a less wordy and more encyclopedic fashion. If you can't come up with anything I'll give it a go. The objective is to provide a more neutral style. The Thunderer (talk) 10:43, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Please stop removing sourced, referenced and relevant text based on a Wikipedia essay WP:CRUFT. I consider your comments IMO above and detailed by me as personal attacks. Please stop, and again as repeatedly asked by me assume good faith. --Domer48_'fenian' 11:13, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I am assuming good faith Domer but it increasingly obvious that you need to take guidance on how you edit. Perhaps you could get someone to mentor you? Your keen interest in Irish history is invaluable but in my opinion you must stop trying to make these points on this article. It isn't about getting the image of a poor downtrodden Nationalist community across. This is an article on a British Army regiment. Yes we must present the controversy but that presentation doesn't get any better by the constant repetition of opinions from authors or newspaper reporters about the Ulster Defence Regiment being anti-Catholic. BigDunc and I are trying our best to strip out the cruft and POV on the article but you're adding more - why is this? Are you on a mission? The Thunderer (talk) 11:22, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

It seems though the only cruft you are removing is the ones you don't like and you have reverted my edits and the edits of Domer in breach of the 1RR sanction that is on this article. BigDunc^Talk 12:38, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Not at all. I've been going through it gradually and removing anything which is a repetition or cruft, inlcuding much of the stuff I put in to counter allegations. The two items I restored which you had removed were:

1. The information on ambush tactics. I feel this is very relevant to the operational function of the regiment. How they were attacked and how they would deal with it. If this were a regular (line) unit we would have battle honours to fall back on but we don't. The UDR were seen very much as the experts on anti terrorist soldiering in Northern Ireland after Ulsterisation and taught the regular army so I believe that passage to be of critical importance.

2. I restored information on the unusual aspect of having husbands and wifes serving together because this is very notable. It didn't happen (except on the rarest of circumstances) anywhere else in the British Armed Forces at the time and is something I think should be expanded on.

I'm certainly very happy to discuss any of this with you if you have doubts about what I'm rewording or removing. I have made some changes to the "Criticism" section (including a good portion of my own editing) and would welcome your views on how it stands at the moment with a view to further reducing the allegation and counter allegation situation. For the moment I am reading through the article slowly to find spelling, grammatical and repetition errors and have removed quite a bit of my own cruft.

Your own edits were useful last night as I wasn't being as observant as I could have been so, again, I welcome those. I've got some time today so I'm getting my head down and pressing on with a complete review of the article and I would be very pleased if you could assist. The Thunderer (talk) 13:13, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Almost forgot. One of the things I removed which Domer put in was an opinion that recruitment was handled by Stormont. I'm sure that was a good faith edit but it's totally blown out of the water by the picture included of an application form which carries a regular army crest. Other information in the article also makes it clear that recruitment and vetting was 100% handled by the regular army (to the chagrin of the Stormont administration). So I can't see how his quote could be true unless he's referring to the bogus application forms circulated by the USC commandant which were rejected by MOD. He hasn't ventured to discuss that particular issue. The Thunderer (talk) 13:18, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Why was sourced, referenced and relevant text removed? Removel based on a Wikipedia essay WP:CRUFT, is not a valid reason. Removing sourced, referenced and relevant text based on a edit summary "Removed as being POV opinion" is not a valid reason. Please give a policy based reason for its removal, and not a wikipedia essay or personal opinion. --Domer48_'fenian' 21:00, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to sort out this mess

I'm about to go on a business trip and then it will be half term and I'm also bidding for my next job. I don't have time to babysit the article and I'm extremely concerned that the tension on this article remains. I have some suggestions to sort it all out that do not require the application of administrative fiat. I would also suggest an aggressive archiving of the talk page to leave only current ongoing discussions.

1. I have previously seen an imposted set of rules of engagement work exceedingly well on an article - the one I'm referring to is Liancourt Rocks. You can see the terms on the article talk page. Would something here work similarly well?
2. Editing might benefit from being slowed down with more discussion of individual points before changes and additions take place.
3. Clear consensus on the scope and extent of the article would make it easier for everyone to work together.
4. Consensus probably needs external input. I would suggest a proper RFC that gives everyone a chance to talk through the problems and flashpoints on the article agreeing the way forward. The first step is for everyone to list exactly what they think is currently wrong with the article and how they would like to see it resolved. A list of historical issues will not help so keep it current.

Article stability and consequent removal of tension will not happen until these issues are resolved. How about you guys stop editing for a bit and work on the talk page to try and thrash out these issues and at the very least agree a consensus on what you do agree with and what the areas of contention are? Spartaz ^Humbug! 15:37, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

As the article now sits I would agree with the above suggestions.Thunderer (talk) 15:47, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

As per reasoning above from Spartaz I have been bold and reverted back to before the latest round of additions and removals started so lets please discuss future additions and removals from this point on. BigDunc^Talk 10:25, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Advice Received

Attribution

Where he [Potter] gives historical fact it must be considered definitive as far as the regiment is concerned as it is an official history.Thunderer. Yes, I would tend to agree (though perhaps not "definitive", but certainly reliable). But when he analyzes or synthesizes information and draws conclusions, then it must be attributed, since his perspective is clearly sympathetic to the regiment. Moreover, in the same way Republican sources can be used to criticise the regiment only when attributed, so can his comments involving Republicans be used, but only when attributed. See the section below for an example of this. On the Belfast Telegraph example, I don't really see why it needs to be attributed. Surely we have no reason to believe he is mis-quoting the newspaper? Therefore we can use his reproduction of their editorial without attributing it to him in the text. Rockpocket 17:43, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Citations

Just a quick note that given the tensions around this article I think it would be an exceedingly good idea for any editor working on this article did not to add any further material that is not properly sourced. Policy supports the removal of unsourced material as violations of WP:V and WP:OR plus see the essay at WP:ONUS. That said I do think it would help to keep the temperature down if more time were given to find the sources. That shouldn't be a blank cheque to ignore the sourcing issue as any third opinion or article RFC would support the removal of unsourced material as a no-brainer exercise of policy. Please discuss but I think it would be helpful for the The Thunderer to be given a little more time to produce the sources but also for them to concentrate on doing this for the moment as that seems to be the main flashpoint in the article. If anyone is feeling revert happy please drop me an e-mail and I'll lock the article to give you all a chance to discuss matters without getting into further trouble. Spartaz Humbug! 05:35, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Proposal, History section

I would like to make the following insertion:

The regiment was formed in 1970 after recommendations from the Hunt Report (1969),which suggested disbanding the part time "B Specials" an all Protestant police force, membership of which heavily overlapped with the Orange Order, and seen by Catholics as the strong arm of the "Protestant ascendancy". Nationalists had been faced by official state forces that regarded them as hostile, and being attacked by irregular Protestant mobs, while the RUC and B Specials turned a blind eye, or were active participants. They were to be replaced according to Hunt, with a force that would be "impartial in every sense and remove the responsibility of military style operations from the police force."

My Rational would be that Nationalist concerns are not mentioned, only that that they had some. These concerns were very real, and will give context and background to their issues with the UDR on recruitment.--Domer48_'fenian' 10:53, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I would agree that we need to know why the Nationalist community had reservations about this force. BigDunc^Talk 11:13, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. I believe this sort of information belongs with the B Specials article. This article is about the Ulster Defence Regiment and as far as I can see the fears of the Catholic community are well addressed. Let's forget about Nationalists because they don't figure at that point in history so much as Civil Rights protesters. The Hunt Report is the basis on which the regiment was formed and that, along with the Ulster Special Constabulary article forms extra reading for anyone who wishes to delve more into the history.

On another matter, while you two are trying to figure out ways of getting more Nationalist material into the article, I've been writing a section on the Irish Citizens Militias which contains some good historical material and has been taked onto the very end. I am about to put the refs in now but had to delay whilst I wrote this. Your comments would be appreciated. Thunderer (talk) 11:26, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Could you please cite some examples from the article were the fears of the Catholic community are addressed. What were the fears of the Nationalist community, and cite examples from the article? I'll look over the Irish Citizens Militias, thanks. Please do not breech the 1RR, lets move forward through disscussion and agreement. --Domer48_'fenian' 11:42, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

The fears of Nationalists are of no consequence. Nationalism is a political entity. What you must concentrate on is the reasons why Catholics would join the UDR or why they wouldn't. Inasmuch as that is already addressed there is no reason to introduce any fresh material to the article along those lines. The historical line is from the B Specials to the UDR. The UDR was a fresh start for the people of Northern Ireland and you must treat the article that way. Thunderer (talk) 11:50, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

That is the issue I'm trying to address, what reasons did Catholics have for not joining the UDR? There is no reasons mentioned other than their fears of it simply being the B Specials under a different name. What were their fears, there is no mention at all in the article? I simply and briefly outline what some of those fears were, and agree that we can add more detail on the B Specials Article. I disagree however that the UDR were seen by Catholics as a fresh start, you suggest as much in some of your edits. --Domer48_'fenian' 12:09, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I have introduced the above information into the History section. IMO it addresses the question posed above "what reasons did Catholics have for not joining the UDR?" It also sets out breifly, "What were their fears...?" Since no examples were cited, having asked for such, were this is addressed in the article, I have moved forward with my proposel. --Domer48_'fenian' 07:42, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Also,I have reverted your edit which is introducing more on the B Specials. Overlapping membership of the B Specials with the Orange Order and confrontation of the B Specials with "Nationalist" mobs belongs on the B Specials article. This article is about the Ulster Defence Regiment. Please stick to the subject matter as shown at A2 above. There is also enough material on this article now about Protestants and Catholics to inform the reader about the issue. From now on I'd like to see us stick to the subject to get this article raised to A Class at Milhist. Thunderer (talk) 10:36, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

To be honest I don't quite see the objection to the text that Domer is trying to introduce. There needs to be sufficient background in this article to understand all the reasons behind the creation of the the new regiment, without having to go off and read too many other articles. David Underdown (talk) 11:10, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

The objection is this: Domer is introducing text about flaws in the B Specials which are all about "Nationalist" perception (note "Nationalist - not "Catholic"). There's no balancing material to show how they were regarded by the Protestant community in Northern Ireland plus if there was you'd have to go into a long preamble about the Protestant/Catholic divide in Northern Ireland. That would consume the article. Various admins over the last few months have suggested that this be concised to the noteworthy comment that the B Specials were "overwhelmingly Protestant". Comments about the B Specials being Orangemen or about their disclipline and deployment firmly belong on the article at Ulster Special Constabulary so that this article remains factually accurate, neutral and focused on the main topic. Thunderer (talk) 11:40, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

The perception of the B Specials by Protestants doesn't seem to be particualrly relevant to why they were being disbanded, or the reasoning behind why fresh start seemed necessary. It doesn't seem to undly stray from teh main topic of the article, but rather sets it in better context. Now the article has been shortened by hiving some content off to sub-articles, length is not such an issue. If the word "Nationalist" is the bugbear, then we can examine the proposed sources to see if Catholic is an adequate substitution. David Underdown (talk) 12:02, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Thunderer based on the above discussion, could you please consider reverting yourself. As I mentioned above please don't breech the WP:1RR. This is your second revert of this information since AE. Thanks --Domer48_'fenian' 12:33, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't see this information as being relevant to the UDR. It's bringing too much emphasis to the article on the B Specials. There's enough as it is. If you want to expand on the riots of 1968 and 1969 or the perceptions of Catholics towards the almost 100% (not totally) Protestant B Men then it should be done on the Ulster Special Constabulary page. There are also other articles on the troubles where this sort of agenda can be explored in greater depth. There are more than several sections in this article which touch on Catholic fears about B Specials in the UDR, B Special commanders, B Special drill halls being used for the UDR and making Catholic recruits uncomfortable. The way the Catholics integrated with former B Specials in 3 UDR. It's B Special all the way - so nobody is making any attempt to hide the fact that the B Specials had an influence in the formation of the UDR and that Catholics were wary of their input, especially CAtholic and Nationalist politicians. All of this information is covered in a good neutral style (in the main). Start introducing allegations about "overlaping Orange Order membership" and involvment in riots as paticipants and it becomes exclusively B Special territory and belongs on the article about them. It's the same as information about the UDR bringing an influence into the Royal Irish Regiment - that doesn't belong here. If you don't agree, put in an RfC. Thunderer (talk) 13:01, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't work like that Thunderer it appears that consensus has been reached for the inclusion of this content. BigDunc^Talk 13:19, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

No, concensus hasn't been reached. Furthermore I have requested that an admin look at this so please don't force the issue. Thunderer (talk) 13:30, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh but it has 3 editors agree that it should be added so that is consensus IMO. BigDunc^Talk 13:33, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can see there has been a discussion and no concensus has been reached. Of the three editors you mention, you and Domer are two of them and it is starting to look as if you are forcing the issue. David Underwood has expressed a view that the information doesn't appear to be harmful. That doesn't indicate any concensus and as I have already reminded you, I asked an admin much earlier in the day to look at this. If you aren't prepared to wait for that admin's opinion you are welcome to put in your own request for an RfC but I would caution against any moves in advance of administrative decisions because that will be a clear breach of sanctions. Thunderer (talk) 13:40, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

On the one hand, remember that admins generally have no special powers relating to article content, though I believe that there are specific Arbitration decisions that give some additional powers over certain articles, of which this is one. On the other, consensus isn't as simple as majority voting.

Simply saying that the B Specials were overwhelmingly Protestant and that a report had recommended that they be disbanded and replaced with an impartial force, immediately begs the question, why precisely were the B Specials not seen as ebing impartial, and who by? We've got to aim at the gneral English-speaking reader, who on balance of probabilities is not from these islands. A few brief examples of the types of allegations made against the B Specials puts this all into context (it should perhaps be noted that Scarman found that the worst allegations agaisnt the USC were not justified), and illustrates the pitfalls that the new unit was intended to avoid. David Underdown (talk) 14:06, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)I see where you're coming from but I feel that to include that and the Hunt arguments you're starting to digress from the subject matter. My point on this is that there is no short argument when you start to bring in the politics of Northern Ireland and it will, as it has done in the past, consume the article. To keep the heat of these arguments away from this (essentially military) article, I am mooting that we keep the emotive terms of author and politicans opinions out of it. Thunderer (talk) 14:12, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

But the decision to disband the USC and create the UDR was largley a political one. A few well focussed examples shouldn't lead to too much trouble. The political and the miltary are (or, optimistically, were) so entwined that it's impossible to entirely divorce them. Mentioning the Hunt report at all brings in politics, there then has to be sufficient context established that the article makes sense as a reasonably stand alone entity. David Underdown (talk) 15:24, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

And that is covered in the article. The Hunt Report basically said that Catholics should be encouraged to take part in the security of the state and that military affairs should be handled by a military unit which didn't get involved in crowd control and should not be under command of the police or the Stormont Administration. That's all in the article as it stands. Examples will do nothing to enhance the article all they'll do it bring the focus onto an earlier period of time and the B Specials which should be addressed on the B Specials page. Thunderer (talk) 15:29, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

But why did Catholics feel that way? It's a question that any reader taht comes fresh to this article, without any background will ant to see answered. They shouldn't have to go to the USC or Hunt report article to find the answer as it's an integral part of the reason the UDR was set up in the way that it was. Unless you can take a more collegial attitude to those working on the article, and try to emotionally distance yourself from it, you are not going to be abel to develop it in the way that you wish. You need to think about what's useful to the reader. I came here with some trepidation due to your request on the MILHIST page, adn nothing I've seen so far makes me be inclined to want to give much time to helping to improve this article. That's a shame because it's undoubtedly important to modern British (and Irish) history, and you obviously have a lot of knowledge. I'm not an admin (though as I said above, they have no particular powers over content issues), but I am a fresh pair of eyes on the article, moderately well-infomred on NI (or at least I'd like to think so), with no particular biases on the subject, save what's inevitable to some extent from my British upbringing, and go back a few generations and you'll find Ulster Scots amongst my realtions. David Underdown (talk) 15:50, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Why did Catholics feel that way about the entire infrastructure of the state, as well as the police and police reserve? The explanation for that is an article on its own and that's another good reason why we should keep the explanations to a factual minimum on the article rather than trying to write a thesis on the socio-political problems of Ireland and Northern Ireland, because that's what's required to fully understand the issue. Thunderer (talk) 16:28, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

There's obviously some truth in that - but I don't think we do have the bare minimum here yet. The current text raises as many questions as it answers. Looking it over again, I'm not sure the currently proposed wording is perfect, but something in that direction is still requred in my view. David Underdown (talk) 16:48, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I would certainly look at suggestions. What's been proposed up until now is far too POV and emotive for such a controversial subject IMO. Thunderer (talk) 16:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Could you please explain your comments on POV? The information is verifiable and reliably sourced to third party sources. The information is factually correct. Now if you want we can also include the Unionist response to the news of disbandment which was two days of rioting and the death of a policeman at the hands of loyalists. I will again ask you to self revert, this background information adds context and without it how are readers to understand the reservations of Nationalists? --Domer48_'fenian' 17:18, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

The article is much better off without any POV thank you. Your quotes can be as reliable as you want but they're no more factual than my arse is a coconut. They're author opinions and as such are sensational, because boring doesn't sell books. Keep the POV off the page please. Thunderer (talk) 20:21, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

vandalism

Again Thunderer you are NOT assuming good faith on my behalf or Domers this has got to stop now. BigDunc^Talk 11:37, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Domer please note that I have now objected twice to your block revert and I consider the use of such a tactic to be vandalism and under the terms of the Arbcom sanctions I have the right to revert it. If you try to pull such a stroke again I will request the article be protected to prevent edit-warring. I certainly do not want to invite sanctions upon myself.Thunderer (talk) 11:40, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

There was no vandalism on this article and you have clearly breached the 1RR sanctions on this article. BigDunc^Talk 11:47, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Once I lodged an objection to the block revert any future reversions of that must be treated as either vandalism or edit-warring in my opinion. You have lodged a complaint so let the admins review it and make a decision.Thunderer (talk) 11:52, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Fresh start

Now that I'm unblocked I'm going to proceed with adding in new information on various aspects of the regiment which are non-controversial, i.e. communications etc. As far as the fears and concerns of the Catholic people of Northern Ireland I see that they are well addressed in the article as far as the Ulster Defence Regiment is concerned. There is a preamble about the B Specials being the precursor and about their effect on Catholic recruitment. There is no need to put in anything more. We don't need evidence of how well or how poorly the B Specials performed or were disciplined. what we need is information about how well the UDR performed - or how badly, and comments about their discipline.

I'm going to state now that anyone editing in information which appears to influence the reader towards any side of the political divide will be challenged and will be the subject of an RfC. If any editor wishes to ask for an RfC in view of my comments I will welcome a discussion with an interested third party.

My objective is to produce an article which deals with the subject matter and is devoid of POV, particularly political POV. Thunderer (talk) 12:02, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, that is a very good goal. :) You do need to split the article though; it's 117 kb long! You could try splitting off the "Formation" and "Recruitment" sections off...maybe. "Battalions and locations" can definitely be cut out and pasted into something along the lines of Battalions and locations of the Ulster Defence Regiment or something of the like. Cheers! —Ed 17 for President _{Vote for Ed} 17:58, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

That's two excellent suggestions. I'll deal with that right away.Thunderer (talk) 21:57, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Good to see discussion is happening. Of course, the 1 RR sanction is in these two new articles as well, but right now, I'm not seeing anything to concern myself. Keep it up :) (edit:forgot to sign, and I shoulda known it was too good to be true) SirFozzie (talk) 18:19, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

New pages

As per the suggestions from User:the_ed17 I have created three new pages to reduce the size of the article. This is following a warning on the article edit page that it was getting too large and the comments made above are in response to a message left by me at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history where I sought advice on splitting the article. The new pages are: Recruitment to the Ulster Defence Regiment‎ Battalions and locations of the Ulster Defence Regiment Criticisms of the Ulster Defence Regiment‎ I am working towards preparing this article to be moved up to "A" Class. The qualification for that is:

The article meets the following five criteria:
A1. The article is consistently referenced with an appropriate citation style, and all claims are verifiable against reputable sources, accurately represent the relevant body of published knowledge, and are supported with specific evidence and external citations as appropriate.
A2. The article is comprehensive, factually accurate, neutral and focused on the main topic; it neglects no major facts or details, presents views fairly and without bias, and does not go into unnecessary detail.
A3. The article has an appropriate structure of hierarchical headings, including a concise lead section that summarizes the topic and prepares the reader for the detail in the subsequent sections, and a substantial but not overwhelming table of contents.
A4. The article is written in concise and articulate English; its prose is clear, is in line with style guidelines, and does not require substantial copy-editing to be fully MoS-compliant.
A5. The article contains supporting visual materials, such as images or diagrams with succinct captions, and other media, where appropriate. See also the A-Class review & criteria FAQ.
I trust reviewing admins will agree with the changes and the objectives outlined by me. Thunderer (talk) 22:34, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Options for Change and amalgamation

In the above section title it mentions the hope that the process of amalgamation with the Rangers, coupled with the change of name, would be a fresh start. The question I have is, did this prove to be the case? Based on the BBC Northern Irelands Spotlight series titled Echoes of Home it would suggest otherwise. I would therfore suggest the text below, which was removed, as an attempt to address the question posed above. The formula of words can be changed according to editors suggestions.

"According to Larkin, it is clear that the Ulster Defence Regiment brought “all its old customs” into the newly amalgamated regiment. While directing a programme in Bosnia for BBC Northern Irelands Spotlight series titled Echoes of Home, they observed that the interiors of the tents in the bivouac area where the RIR were deployed were festooned with King Billy flags and other loyalist regalia. The British Army’s PR department, who had done an excellent job setting things up for them while in Bosnia, were horrified while watching a preview of the film when they returned home, to see the loyalist regalia in the background while interviewing the soldiers. They approached the Spotlight team, asking if they could do something about the flags, but they were unable to do so. The Army’s concern stemmed from the fact, Larkin says, because this came at a time when stories began to surface about recruits from the South of Ireland were being intimidated by UDR personal." --Domer48_'fenian' 07:53, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

This information is not relevant to the UDR. It's about the Royal Irish Regiment. See A2 above. Can you put it in the Royal Irish Regiment article under "Home Service battalions". Thunderer (talk) 10:04, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Just one question. Was the amalgamation with the Rangers all that it was hoped to be? Thanks, --Domer48_'fenian' 12:27, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't answer that accurately as far as Home Service is concerned. For the General Service battalion I can. In my experience in the last 4 years they've had an RSM from Dublin, and a Captain as Welfare Officer (later MTO) who was an ex RSM - also from the south. They have at least several commissioned officers from the Free State and the usual smattering of southern Irish in the ranks. Insomuch as who's Catholic and who's Protestant it's hard to know because they don't make an issue out of religion. You will find Ulster regalia in rooms but you'll also find the tricolour. They all mix together in the bars. In that respect they're very like the Irish Hussars which I served with. From a working point of view you'll probably find that more of the senior NCO and officer appointments within Home Service were filled by Rangers instead of guys from English, Scottish or Welsh units and that's where you're going to find the unusual situation that predominantly Protestant battalions would have had Catholic RSM's or Commanding Officers who could have come from the Falls Road or the South. How they dealt with that I don't know. Not that there weren't Irish Catholic NCO's or officer before amalgamation - there were. Some regular posts in the UDR were filled by Inniskilling Dragoons, Irish Hussars, Irish Guards as well as Irish Rangers. I know for a fact that 11 UDR had an Irish Hussar PSI as well as an Irish Ranger commanding officer. Were they Protestant or Catholic? Who knows, who cares. The army is the army and the religion of the man next to you is of no consequence, you depend on him when the chips are down just the same as he depends on you.Thunderer (talk) 12:45, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

There were also more than a few Irish in the 4/7th Dragoon Guards (originally 4th Royal Irish DG) and 16/5th Lancers (5th Royal Irish Lancers). They would have had people on attachment too. Thunderer (talk) 12:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

We mention in the article the hopes for the amalgamation, so I ask once again, was the amalgamation with the Rangers all that it was hoped to be? We know that the answer is no, so why can we not say it? While your experience is intresting, it dose not answer the question I raise. Now could you please give a policy based reason why the information can not be included. As an aside, I can provide a sourced reference which states that the display of the Tri-colour would not be tolerated. --Domer48_'fenian' 17:32, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

My experience of these things doesn't mirror your source. I have seen with my own eyes many displays of tricolours in the barracks of Irish units of the British Army. I lived with it. I served with Catholics and Protestants, many of whom had been and were subsequently in the UDR, the British Police Forces, the Garda Siochana or Oglaigh na hEireann. I drink in Dublin with British and Irish soldiers and members of the Gardai, all of whom know who the other is. You don't understand the mentality of soldiers that's the problem here. Religion is of little or no importance to them, no matter how hard you try to prove otherwise. Furthermore if anyone suggests that the Home Service battalions had bad habits brought in by the UDR then that information belongs on the Royal Irish page but one thing's for sure - your source is quoting the General Service battalion, because Home Service guys didn't serve in Bosnia and if you're trying to make religion an aspect of the 1st Battalion you're on a hiding to nothing because I have had much and recent close contact with them and I know your source to be totally wrong.Thunderer (talk) 20:18, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Removal of Ronnie Gamble information

Can you please self revert on the Ronnie Gamble information please. You have deleted a link to an online version of his book, including the ISBN number. It is not a blog. Thunderer (talk) 13:55, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I dont need to seen as you have reverted my edits again. This adds nothing to the article as he is non notable and should be removed. Or will we add more names of ex members? BigDunc^Talk 15:32, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I added new information, I didn't revert you. He is notable however. He wrote a book, a book which was funded by the National Lottery. That's very notable. It's his book which is online too - not a blog as you tried to assert. It's word-for-word ISBN 9780955806902. I will be adding the names of other ex-members too, because they were in the UDR and the article demands facts about the UDR. Thunderer (talk) 15:46, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

No you reverted again seems your block didn't change your editing patterns. BigDunc^Talk 15:50, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

With the revised text relating to him, it seems worth leaving some mention of him in, particularly since his book is being used a reference elsewhere in the article, and it helps people to understand the reliability of that as a source. He's probably not notable enough for his own wikipedia article. The text might be improved if we could actually find something like a book review or similar describing him as a typical recruit - that does read a little like original research as it stands. David Underdown (talk) 15:54, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

His book is online and any relevant information from it can be used. It isn't all about him though and it does contain some opinion which I am opposed to using because opinions aren't what we need here. You're quite right as well David. It is totally different text to that which was reverted by BigDunc. I don't believe he's notable enough for writing one small book about the UDR to have his own article. Dunc, you need to exercise a little good faith.Thunderer (talk) 15:58, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Good faith about what? BigDunc^Talk 16:02, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Well you removed an item which you called a blog, totally ignoring the inline text which said it was an online reproduction of a book.Thunderer (talk) 16:24, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

A book that Google book search and worldcat and LibraryThing have no returns on a search. BigDunc^Talk 16:37, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I have provided the ISBN, it isn't my fault if you can't find it. I have the book in front of me and I will put the front and back covers into the article as proof of you wish because I have written permission from the author to do so. Thunderer (talk) 16:42, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

In fact I have just done so. The back cover of the book is now in the article with the ISBN No clearly visible along with the author's name and the Lottery logo. I'll do the flyleaf as well if you'd like me to?Thunderer (talk) 16:54, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

London Gazette

David, that's an excellent addition to the article. I never thought of looking to see when officers were Gazetted. Thunderer (talk) 16:31, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

The search facility isn't 100% reliable because the way the scanned image has been converted to machine readable text, but most things can be tracked down in the end. It helps if you know the persons full name (or at least their full initials). David Underdown (talk) 16:35, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

This is excellent material though. You're contributing something very relevant, factual and verifiable to the article. It's not political, it'not POV, it's not opinion. Just good solid information which enhances the article and puts it further down the road to A Class. Thunderer (talk) 16:40, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

The Subversion in the UDR report

This is an extremely relevant document in relation to the UDR. It is subject specific and should not have been removed without prior discussion. I would now invite editor’s opinions on this section, and the other sections which have been removed. --Domer48_'fenian' 17:50, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

The report is one of the most import documents to come to light in relation to the UDR. The issue of collusion goes to the very hart of all that was wrong in relation to policing a divided society. The report was not a criticism of the UDR, but a condemnation as any book of Google search will attest. To disassociate this report from the main article would not lend itself to the reader’s knowledge of the regiment. To remove such vast sections in the absence of any prior discussion dose not lend its self to a productive editing environment. --Domer48_'fenian' 19:49, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

With regards to discussion you should have discussed any proposal along these lines before trying any such moves. You were also informed by me that admin advice had been requested and you knew that I had drawn attention to all of this on the AE board. You two seem to be out of control at the moment and I'm leaving admins to deal with you. In the meantime the information has been restored to where it was left after discussion with people at the Milhist board. Thunderer (talk) 20:10, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Latest dispute

Ok, I'm here at work, so I can't dig fully, but let's TALK. Since usually when the usual folks talk to each other in the usual way, the dispute doesn't get resolved, completely ignore what the "other" side says. Talk to me, and only me.

Domer, from a quick look, it looks like the Subversion in the UDR report looks to be handled in the Criticism of the UDR article, is that not correct? SirFozzie (talk) 19:34, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I have outlined my rational above, and if you wish me to expand upon it I'll be more than happy in the section I opened on it. For now though, I would apply your rational of bold, revert, discuss. --Domer48_'fenian' 19:42, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Where was the consensus for creating a criticism article? BigDunc^Talk 19:47, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I find this section very perplexing when one reviews the recent edits on the article. Every edit I’ve made has been reverted. Every one. I have not reverted, but instead have gone to the talk page. In the section above titled “Proposal, History section” only one editor has disagreed with the views on the discussion, and reverted despite the opportunity provided on the talk page. To suddenly describe my edit, as “Latest Dispute” despite no comments on the talk page I find strange. Could Fozz possibly point me to this dispute? --Domer48_'fenian' 19:59, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I was pointed at this by a request by Thunderer for more eyes on the article on AE. As for the consensus for creating a criticism article, Thunderer asked for more eyes on the article at the Military project sub-article, who indicated that the article was getting too big, and suggested creating sub pages for some of the larger sections. I happen to agree with it (speaking ONLY as an editor, not an administrator), the page was over 100K, which is not recommended for articles, and the main article links to the sub-pages in the articles). More later once I have a free moment. SirFozzie (talk) 20:07, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

And were did this discussion take place where consensus was reached to move pertinent sections of the article? BigDunc^Talk 20:21, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

"Thunderer asked for more eyes on the article at the Military project sub-article." So was the discission made their on what sections to be removed were? That new "Criticism" article is nothing but a POV fork, it should be in the main article. It should have been discussed before it was removed, it was not. And Fozz you agree with this? --Domer48_'fenian' 20:33, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

As I said previously, with my editor hat on, yes. It was a large section that deserved its own article in full, rather than filling an already bloated article. SirFozzie (talk) 20:37, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Were was the prior discussion? Even the editor from the Milhist who I don't know from Adam is getting tired of this editors attitude. You still have not addressed my view that the new "Criticism" article is nothing but a POV fork, which IMO it is. So you agree with this removal despite no discussion? --Domer48_'fenian' 20:43, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Have you ever considered contributing something to this article other than criticism Domer? Surely with all the knowledge you've gleaned by now, especially what I've taught you, you must appreciate what a superb unit the UDR was and what a great job they did in such trying circumstances?Thunderer (talk) 20:47, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I dont think trying to goad another editor by patronising them is any way helpful so please stop it now. BigDunc^Talk 21:03, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Seeing as 1RR hasn't made the desired effect? Perhaps 0-RR should be considered, as the revert button, can be too much of a temptation. GoodDay (talk) 21:08, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

But who is doing the reverting and no sanctions are being imposed I would agree to a 0RR on the article if admins are going to impose the sanctions that were set out. BigDunc^Talk 21:14, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

PP

Could you expalin Fozz what edit war? BigDunc^Talk 20:20, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Not quite edit warring, but I'm not going to let one develop, especially. It was the best drop down from the menu. As I said, I'm working and can't watch it every free moment. I'm not going to let one start here. SirFozzie (talk) 20:22, 14 October 2008 (UTC)