Talk:Jewish extremist terrorism

Under development

This article is under development.

Siddiqui 20:39, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I am reverting Siddiqui's edit because

• it does not distinguish between Judaism and Zionism.
• ummah.com does not qualify as a reputable source.
• it is wrong to have such discrepancy in titles as Jewish terrorism but Palestinian political violence. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 21:04, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

You cannot make this unilateral change without fully disucssing this issue. We have articles like Islamic Terrorism and that would also have to be changed (or redirected) at the sametime. May be you first should change/redirect 'Islamic Terrorism' to 'Islamic political violence'. This kind of unilateral and one sided censorship should be avaoided.

Siddiqui 21:11, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

If there is something wrong with another article, please discuss and edit that other article, don't channelize your anger at Jews. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 21:20, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

BTW, Islamic Terrorism redirects to Islamic extremist terrorism. Siddiqui, you make it hard to assume good faith. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 21:28, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

You have committed double reversion within 24 hours and I will report you to Wikipedia person

Siddiqui 21:17, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Go ahead. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 21:20, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

There's no rule against double reversion.--Urthogie 08:48, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

November 2007 Edit

I reverted the edit that changed the article from a redirect to a stub. The information is already covered in Zionist political violence. Moreover, it appears that this edit was the result of a dispute at Islamic Terrorism. Dchall1 (talk) 03:13, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

1. Neither Jewish Defense League nor Kach or Kahane Chai are covered in Zionist political violence.
2. Why do you redirect to Religious terrorism if you think, that Zionist political violence covers the topic?
3. Don't you think there's some bias, if we have Christian terrorism and Islamic terrorism but no Jewish terrorism?

--Raphael1 21:46, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

1. Feel free to add the JDL & Kach info to the Zionist political violence article.
2. I reverted the page to where it was before it was edited. You're right that it should more accurately redirect to Zionist political violence.
3. Names of other pages don't matter. You can take up the discussion at the Zionist political violence talk page, but any discussion probably won't get noticed here. Besides, names of other articles have no bearing here. See WP:OTHERSTUFF. Dchall1 (talk) 22:42, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Zionism was a secular nationalist philosophy, not a religious one (indeed, prior to 1948 most Jewish religious denominations, from Reform to Orthodox, opposed Zionism) so the parallel with Christian and Islamist terrorism fails. On the other hand, both the Jewish Defense League and Kach/Kahane Chai are actually mentioned in Religious terrorism#Jewish, and both of these groups were religious; per Raphael1's examples, Religious terrorism#Jewish. Based on the above, I'm re-directing to the more appropriate spot. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:24, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Jayjg, there is no mention of those organisations on the article you refer to. Dchal, Jayjg is right, the parallel with Christian and Muslim terrorism fails. As they seem to be more Jewish than Zionist, the Zionist political violence article isn't a suitable place for them. Based on this, I've decided that a redirect is not appropriate.

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 12:57, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Your argument contradicts itself. First, you say that the organization are "more Jewish than Zionist" (presumably you meant "religious Jewish"), and then you say that a redirect to Religious terrorism#Jewish "is not appropriate". Thus, I am restoring the redirect, please do not do such sweeping edits without first getting consensus for them. Beit Or 14:18, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense. Religious terrorism#Jewish does not exist, as the religious terrorism article does not even mention Jewish terrorism. If that's the kind of argument you're making, I'm compelled to restore the text.

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 14:41, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

This stub has no value, and is in any case misleadingly labeled. It should be merged elsewhere. IronDuke 18:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Leaving aside your opinion on its value for the moment, why do you say it's misleadingly labelled?

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 18:53, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring

As a reminder, this article is under the scope of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles. As an uninvolved administrator, I have wide latitude in restrictions that I can place on the article, as well as discretionary sanctions on the involved editors. So please, stop with the edit-warring, and discuss differences at the talkpage. Thanks, --Elonka 16:36, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Proposed move

As Jewish can refer to either the religion or the ethnic group, I propose moving this article to Jewish religious terrorism. Thoughts?

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 11:35, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Is this still a stub?

I've readded the {{judaism-stub}} template since it was removed without explaination (and the article still looks like a stub by any criteria) in this change: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jewish_religious_terrorism&diff=220569148&oldid=220569013

I'm no expert on the subject, so I'm redirecting any discussion here (to avoid any edit warring).

--Blaisorblade (talk) 20:17, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Early 20th century

What about Jewish bombs and such targeting British early in the 20th century, during the campaign to create the state of Isreal? Irgun, Lehi and so on? Sources: "Increased Jewish immigration, which had begun in the late 19th century, provoked both Arab unrest and Jewish terrorism aimed at ending the British administration" [1]; "The British feared that their failure to control Jewish terrorism would turn Palestinian Arabs against them" [2]; "Actions were stepped up through 1945 and 1946, by which time Jewish terrorism had cost the lives of 373 people in Palestine" [3]... It should be mentioned, and if it falls outside religious, Jewish terrorism should be changed from redirect into an article. Alternatively, this article may need to be moved back to its previous title (Jewish terrorism). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:30, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

adding to the article.93.96.148.42 (talk) 08:37, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Search results

Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Use the most easily recognized name:

1. "Jewish terrorism" Results about 20,800
2. "Jewish religious terrorism" - (minus) Wikipedia Results 3

--Poeticbent talk 01:18, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. I have to say that I don't fully grasp the logic of the old move (as explained at #Proposed move) that added the "religious". I'd think that ethnic is more important here anyway, but there is no need for clarification in name... PS. See also my comments at Talk:Zionist_political_violence#Jewish_terrorism_2. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:25, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

There may be Jewish religious terrorism, and I see, rather to my surprise, that one of PB's three hits is on Kahane; but I don't think it's the natural description of this page. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:22, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

"New Jewish underground"

Which reliable source has stated that the pipe bomb planted by an alleged new "Jewish undergound" is an example of "Jewish terrorism"? Jayjg ^(talk) 01:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I hate it when people blame the Jews for these things, but YnetNews headlines "Attack on professor Jewish terror". I don't think that's favorite reading material for those who take their views from Holocaust Deniers. Also at Sky News "Israeli authorities are hunting a Jewish terrorist cell thought to be behind an attack on a supporter of the country's peace movement". PR^talk 09:51, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Merge Zionist Terrorism Here ?

I think this is appropriate, but perhaps a summary should be made here- other thoughts?93.96.148.42 (talk) 02:01, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Jewish Religious Terrorism?

Why is secular Jewish terrorism not covered here, and where should it be covered if not here?93.96.148.42 (talk) 05:44, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Jewish Terrorism

Why is it not neutral to list Irgun here? Are you disputing that they were Jewish terrorists? Do you know what neutrality means? The article is biased, I was trying to add to it.93.96.148.42 (talk) 07:42, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

You are obviously pushing a POV. Every single word you type is dripping with bias. I know quite well what neutrality means, tell me, do you? Most of your edits tonight barely skirt the edge of blatant POV, that one in particular went way over it. Trusilver 07:44, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

which one?93.96.148.42 (talk) 07:46, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

This[4] was a edit that was designed to push an agenda. All of your talk page comments make it clear where your bias is. Because of this, you need to be twice as careful not to give the impression you are trying to push articles in direction of your own point of view. Trusilver 07:48, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Please assume good faith, don't make personal attacks, and explain why Irgun should not be included in "Jewish Terrorism" - do you disagree that they were jews who described themselves as terrorists?93.96.148.42 (talk) 07:50, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't recall disagreeing with inclusion. It is your slant and bias to the inclusion that I disagree with. Look at the reversion before your edit - It was well written and NPOV. Look at yours - It...wasn't. Trusilver 07:52, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

you object to "jewish terror groups were involved in the creation of israel. " - not the inclusion of irgun as a jewish terrorist organisation? How would you phrase it?93.96.148.42 (talk) 07:59, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

No, I definitely would include Irgun as a Jewish terrorist organization. If they aren't, then who is? But "Jewish terror groups were involved in the creation of Israel" give the definite implication that the involvement was direct and not just paralleling its creation. That's far more conjecture than it is documented fact. It's the subtleties of the phrasing that suggest the deeper meaning. Trusilver 08:08, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Your most recent edit sounds slightly awkward, but is much more neutral in my opinion. Trusilver 08:09, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Very glad - am not wishing to be biased, but to correct and build a great encyclopaedia! - Bit worried someone else will remove it though93.96.148.42 (talk) 08:12, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Maybe this should move to the talk page there?93.96.148.42 (talk) 08:13, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

If you want to include ANYTHING as WHATEVER, please, provide wp:rs secondary sources that state that ANYTHING is WHATEVER. For Lehi (resp. Irgun), it means to provide a wp:rs secondary sources that proves that the goals of these organisations what religious (and no political).

Given it is not the case, good luck. Ceedjee (talk) 17:58, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

The IP editor was told, by Trusilver above (with whom he is otherwise in disagreement), that "include Irgun as a Jewish terrorist organization". There appears to be good RS (either their own words, or that of the subset Lehi) that the cause was religious. There needs to be a clear explanation of what is religious and what is political terrorism (and whether we're allowed to treat it as ethnic?) in the article, and there also needs to be some indication of where to find the other kind/s, otherwise the project will remain mired in this kind of time-wasting and article damaging to-and-fro. But I must congratulate you on the good-faith you showed moving the referenced information that you thought was out of place to the TalkPage below. PR^talk 12:28, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

"Jewish terrorism" is terrorism done in the name of Judaism. Don't confuse ethnic and political movements with religious ones. Fatah was/is a Palestinian organization, not a Muslim one. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:45, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

While I whole-heartedly agree we should avoid linking religions to criminal behavior as far as possible, this article can hardly avoid mentioning that some of the terrorists indeed claimed their actions were terrorism and were motivated by religion. The Lehi newspaper in 1943 (Heller, p115) said "Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can negate the use of terror as a means of battle. ... We are quite far from moral hesitations on the national battlefield. We see before us the command of the Torah, the most moral teaching in the world: "Obliterate — until destruction".

And I note that the immensely tendacious use of "Judeah and Samaria" continues at this article, despite the exhaustive evidence that's it's entirely partisan and has virtually no modern useage other than by POV objectors to the univerally accepted legal position. PR^talk 12:28, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

PR, please stop soapboxing, and instead use this Talk: page to discuss proposed content changes to this article. I'll be removing any further off-topic comments. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:06, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Moved material

Zionist groups in the British Mandate of Palestine fighting for a Jewish Homeland used terrorism. Between 1945 and the Independence of Israel, 784 British and Danish soldiers were buried in Palestine by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, out of a total of 1200 foreign nationals and Palestine Police known to be buried there. By 1946 Jewish terrorism had cost the lives of 373 people in Palestine.[5]

- by me. Ceedjee (talk) 17:59, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

"Jewish terrorism" is terrorism committed by Jews, as Jews

Where does the idea come from that "Jewish terrorism" means religious terrorism - the name of the article is "Jewish terrorism".

• Please provide a reasoned response, preferably with references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.148.42 (talk) 00:31, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Failing a response I have reinstated Zionist terrorist groups.93.96.148.42 (talk) 02:34, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

As discussed above, "religous terrorism" is terrorism done in the name of religion. I'm thus about to revert your edit, as was done by others before. Regards, ליאור (talk) 15:26, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

IP 93, you have already been explained this at other places and you didn't even answer. See WP:Battlefield Ceedjee (talk) 20:45, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I've read this talk page and haven't found a proper answer to the question several editors have asked: Exactly who says "Jewish terrorism" = "religious Jewish terrorism"? Its difficult to escape the impression that this arbitrary restriction, apparently unique to Wikipedia, has been put in simply in order to avoid inclusion of groups like Lehi and Irgun in the category. MeteorMaker (talk) 08:07, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

There is an article titled zionist political violence where the actions of IZL and LHI are reported.~Copy/pasting the point of view that their actions would be a form of terrorism is wp:soap and wp:battleground.

It was useful to have this discussion.

Indeed, it shows that the racist idea (and even illegal in Europe) that a form a violence could be linked to an ethnicicity (and so with some genetic grounds), such as the fact being a Jew or a white or an Arab, and not linked to cultural or social reason, such as the fact defending a muslim or jewish nationalist concept, defending western values, ...) can still be suggested today.

If somebody finds wp:rs studies where it is reported the "extraordinary claim" that terrorism would have been practiced by jews to defend their ethnicity (as in Rwanda in the 90ties) and not what they consider(ed) to defend the zionism rights or the judaism rights), we can discuss about this.

The idea that "zionism is racism" because it defends the existence of an "ethnical entity" in the Jewish State/Israel is controversed and, per wp:soap should not be put forward in the meaning we give to titles in wikipedia.

This controversy is also explained and detailled in other places.

Ceedjee (talk) 10:08, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with most of that, but I feel the question wasn't addressed why "Jewish terrorism" should be restricted to mean "religious Jewish terrorism". If there should be a category named "Jewish terrorism" at all, either the current title is misleading, or the current content is incomplete. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:21, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

If it is just an issue of title, "jewish terrorism" or "religious jewish terrorism" could be replaced by Neo-Zionist political violence (see Neo-Zionism), which is more factual, clearer and more npov. Ceedjee (talk) 10:31, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Jewish terrorism -> Neo-Zionist political violence ?

There has been long discussion and disputes around the article Jewish terrorism. According to the different points of views in different talk pages :

• "Jewish" dimension should only be religious and not ethnical, and therefore Jewish is not clear
• the "zionist" dimension in the causes of Jewish terrorism should be emphasized
• "terrorism" still remains a wp:words to avoid and political violence is more neutral.

The article Neo-Zionism explains the origin of these wording used by different scholars working in the field of sociology and study of nationalism...
What would you think about the move from Jewish terrorism to Neo-Zionist political violence ? Ceedjee (talk) 10:50, 7 February 2009 (UTC)