Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mongolia during Tang rule

Mongolia during Tang rule

Mongolia during Tang rule (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Content fork.

No real sources unless you count primary ones, or "Smith, p. 4711" or "Cambridge History of China, vol. 11" without page number. Some rather strange claims (like Chinese conquered the Russian steppe), a somewhat unclear reference to the Khitan people who were far from dominating in the area at the time - and whose exact ethnic affiliations are not really as clear as that strange reference seems to imply - and a lot of stuff that has no obvious relation to Mongolia at all. Most of the content for this article has been removed from Han Chinese a while ago (like here by myself or here by someone else). Valid content - for several decades in the 7th century, the Göktürks were subjects of the Tang dynasty - is treated much better in Tang Dynasty#Turkish and Western regions, Protectorate General to Pacify the North, History of Mongolia#Turkic_Period and Göktürks. Yaan (talk) 17:57, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

• Turn into redirect to History of Mongolia#Turkic_Period. This seems more appropriate than the others, even if just because of the word "Mongolia" being contained in the article title. Yaan (talk) 17:57, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Mongolia-related deletion discussions. -- — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  01:14, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:00, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

please note that all "delete" votes on this page are the result of canvssing by User:G Purevdorj, evidence is at the bottom of the page —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.84.164.128 (talk) 23:40, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

This non-signed user vandalized my talk page with the non-sense content with the offensive remarks, i.e. "GenuineMongol, you got owned", before G.Purevdorj notified me of the existence of such article. Are there any alive administrators out there to stop this vandal spitting all over the Mongolian related pages? See Talk:Mongolia. I removed the same remark from my talk page. See the history of my talk page. I am all for the deletion of the article. --GenuineMongol (talk) 04:16, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Delete _{Gantuya eng had earlier (while the text is now below) already given the same vote, so this one isn't valid. G Purevdorj (talk) 09:14, 26 February 2009 (UTC)}: That non-signed user has been vandalising Wikipedia since mid-December. Some editors call his behaviour "Chinese Chauvinism", but to me his behaviour seems to be even worse and very unhealthy. Sorry if it sounds like personal attack, but his behaviour reminds me a pathological condition rather than any form of an extreme political stream. Gantuya eng (talk) 08:47, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

• Keep This is an important subject, and the article should be improved apon. -download | sign! 00:01, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

• Keep and improve. Important topic in the history of a country. Capitalistroadster (talk) 05:42, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

• Delete The content reflects traditional Chinese history conceptions, not a picture of history as could be reached by using sources not intended for tradition. I don't see any way to mend it as the topic is inherently biased and, as Yaan pointed out, you cannot really speak of an effective Chinese rule. Why not write an article about pre-Heian Japan under Chinese rule? Nominally, they were in some sense, but no one would think of writing such nonsense. This article is pure Chinese chauvinism and deserves to be deleted. G Purevdorj (talk) 09:48, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

note that G Purevdorj has canvassed at least six pro mongolian editors starting from this edit. taking a look at all his next edits, he is trying to hide the blatant POV canvassing by switching into mongol language. all the other people who voted "delete" have a message left by him on their talk pages to hurry here and vote delete. as they all work primarily on mongol related topics and have pro mongol POV, these votes have to be struck out.

You don't make sense on this point. Users working primary on Mongolian-related topics can also considererd to be more knowledgable than editors that don't know what the article is about. And while you point out that Gantuya eng clearly opposed this article from the start and so notifying her (albeit not in this fashion) was very obviously justified, you ALSO argue that her argument should be stuck out because she was rallied! You may notice that it is the Mongolia-related editors that actually address content, while the other editors are just impressed by some references that they cannot assess. G Purevdorj (talk) 09:07, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

WRONG-accordinig to WHITE MAN Kenneth Scott Latouretter Han chinese emperor Tang taizong owned the gokturks and khitans, and was crowned khagan of the gokturks and since gokturk territory controlled mongolia, he owned mongolia. last time i checked, he wasnt chinese. Kenneth Scott Latourette has a PHD in oriental studies at yale university, unlike you.

The Chinese and their History and Culture" by Kenneth Scott Latouretter FOURTH REVISED EDITION 56892 Library of Congress card number- 64-17372 Printed by Macmillan ISBN 0-8160-2693-9

Gantuya eng correctly pointed out below that this article is trying to ignite hatred between Chinese and Mongolians, and you're obviously quite aware that you're continuing in this vein. You don't need to be Chinese to do so. Eg it would be possible to detail the systematic bias persisting in a sinology originally devoid of ancillary sciences. G Purevdorj (talk) 08:27, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Lautorette had a PHD inj oriental studies and is not sinocentrist. otherwise he wouldnt have tried to convert them to christianity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.84.138.30 (talk) 21:06, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

• Delete 1. Mongolia did not exist when the Tang dynasty shortly invaded the Turkic khanates, so Mongolia could not be subject to the Tang rule. 2. Article Göktürks has mentioned the short invasion. So, there is no need and basis for creating this article. It must be deleted. GenuineMongol (talk) 12:52, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

physical area of mongolia was ruled by tang dynasty. and latouretter said the khitans were mongols, and he had a PHD in oriental studies at yale university, unlike you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.155.157.126 (talk) 04:10, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

• Strong Delete "Mongolia under Tang?" To me it doesn't sound scientific. There was a short period of Tang occupation during the Turkic Kaganate, and that period has already been described in other articles in a more scientific way. In addition, the author of this "article" is the same person who, under varying IP numbers, persisted inserting veiled vandalism in China and Mongolia related articles intentionally trying to humiliate the histories of these two modern nations and trying to ignite hatred between these two friendly peoples beginning from mid-December. In this light, the "Mongolia under Tang rule" article is also seen as a veiled vandalism. This is also proved by the non-civic and rather unhealthy behaviour of the author in the talk lists of certain members. Gantuya eng (talk) 20:36, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Canvassing Please note that this editor was contacted here Ikip (talk) 07:38, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Please note message on article talk page:

Unhealthy behaviour of the "author" of this "article" in the talk page of User:GenuineMongol and other factors justify the AfD nomination of this and as well "article" "Tibet during the Tang Dynasty". These are actually a well-veiled form of vandalism. Gantuya eng (talk) 04:11, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

You can't justify an article being deleted, because you don't like the editor. Dream Focus 07:58, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

At least for User:Gantuya eng, this AfD appears to be a personal vendetta against another user for "unhealthy behavior". Ikip (talk) 08:04, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

• Delete It seems indeed more consistent to refer to the History of Mongolia#Turkic_Period. Inmongolia (talk • contribs) 06:15, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Canvassing Please note that this editor was contacted here Ikip (talk) 07:38, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

which incidently has a single source written by a MONGOL? obvious unreliable source exposed right away —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.84.164.128 (talk) 23:42, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

• Again, i would like everyone to know that all the users who voted "delete" have a message from USer:G Purevdorj, telling them to come here and hurry to vote delete. he then switched into mongol language to the ones who spoke it. not to mention the fact that all users who have voted delete, have edits primarily concerning mongols AND have pro mongol POV —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.84.164.128 (talk) 23:34, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
• Keep Retain Tang rule over Mongolia (618-755) is valid, should nto be counted as simply "Turkic Period". The Gokturks had very little control over this area after 645.Teeninvestor (talk) 00:30, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Who were defeated by Tang? Mongols? Or Turks? Did Mongols exist in that time? Did Khitans, who are claimed by the author of this article to be related to Mongols, dominate the area when Tang invaded? It is risky to vote on a subject you are not familiar with.GenuineMongol (talk) 02:11, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Latouretter has PHD in oriental studies at yale univesity, and he says the Khitans are mongol. It is also said by liguists that khitan language is a proto mongolic language. Linguist list groups khitan language subgroup as mongolian OWNED

Khitan language and Mongolian language are equal siblings of the same language family and none of them is ancestral to the other. The modern ethnic group of the Daurians are thought to be the genetic descendants of the Khitans. In one of the articles related to the Chinese history I was disappointed to read that the Khitan state is described as one of the Chinese dynasties rather than one of the nomadic empires. Even I expressed my opinion in the talk page of that article. Gantuya eng (talk) 03:03, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

G_Purevdorj isn't the first initiator of the deletion of this article. I had already expressed my deletion suggestion in the talk page of the article before he wrote me in my personal talk page. He has the right to exchange opinions with other editors and he is always welcome to write in my personal talk page. Gantuya eng (talk) 03:08, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

• Hold on My first suggestion is to merge into appropriate sections of the History of China/Mongolia/Gokturks series. There really was no such thing as "Mongolia" during the Tang dynasty. It is on that basis that I feel there isn't much to say about "Mongolia during the Tang dynasty". Right now, the article looks like a brag-piece along the lines of "the Chinese conquered Mongolia before there was Mongolia. How amazingly accomplished of them!" If an argument can be made that that article can be populated with more substantial contents, e.g. detailed information of Tang administration of Mongolia, or the relations between the Tang emperor and his (her) various vassals, then the article should be kept. As yet, no such argument has been made out. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:47, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion was posted on Wikipedia:WikiProject_China, WP:Article Rescue Squadron, and Wikipedia:WikiProject_Central_Asia/Mongolia_work_group. Ikip (talk) 07:37, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
• Strong keep Incredibly well researched article, which meets and exceeds all policies and guidelines. Please consider closing for canvassing reasons. I am notifying WP:Canvass of this issue. Ikip (talk) 07:34, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Please let us know what are the research findings of the article. Mongolia can't be ruled by Tang, when they did NOT exist AT ALL! Mongolia was founded by Genghis Khan only in 1206. Khitans are not ancestors of Mongolians, but relatives of Mongolians. Please don't let your emotion take over your decision. Please be reasonable and consider the acts of the vandal on my talk page and other Mongolia related articles. --GenuineMongol (talk) 13:15, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

• Keep plenty of references, and article looks fine. Reading the comments on the talk page, I'm wondering if it was nominated based on the content of the article, or because of a dislike of the article's creator. Dream Focus 08:01, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

*Strong delete: Have you checked those "plenty of references"? Gantuya eng (talk) 08:56, 26 February 2009 (UTC) _{Why not 3, while you're at it? yandman 09:07, 26 February 2009 (UTC)}

Classifying editors of Wikipedia as "pro mongolian" again indicates the vandalic attempt to ignite hatred between the Mongolian and Chinese people. Then, do you mean that those who are to keep the article are "pro chinese" or "anti mongolian"? Gantuya eng (talk) 09:01, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

• Keep I've read the article and arguments and I don't find anything wrong with the article. But perhaps someone more familiar with Chinese and Mongolian history knows better.--Sloane (talk) 14:38, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

• DELETE In my view, the only arguable value in this article is in its title -- see detailed analysis at:

1. Talk:Mongolia during Tang rule#Non-standard citation format

2. Talk:Mongolia during Tang rule#Difficult-to-parse text

3. Talk:Mongolia during Tang rule#References

While I can appreciate the plausible worth of an article about this subject, the blunt fact remains that the draft proposed for deletion is quite unworkable. I attempted to improve it by removing the weak parts -- and in the end, there was no substance remaining. I also attempted to enhance it's coverage by importing verifiable material from Horses in East Asian warfare ... but I don't quite see how that gesture can be construed as a sufficient reason for keeping this article without the investment of more work. --Tenmei (talk) 19:45, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Canvassing

G purevdorj has canvassed a number of pro mongol editors to vote delete, for some of them he started off in english, then switched to other languages like mongolian, and german, secretly telling them to delete.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Gantuya_eng&diff=prev&oldid=272931606

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Latebird&diff=prev&oldid=272932305

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Enerelt&diff=prev&oldid=272932664

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:GenuineMongol&diff=prev&oldid=272933434

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Angarag&diff=prev&oldid=272933975

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sergelen&diff=prev&oldid=272934159

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Inmongolia&diff=prev&oldid=272949399 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.84.164.128 (talk) 23:37, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

You're a nuisance. As you rightly say, I didn't rally any disinterested editor, and therefore my behaviour is accurate. In the cases where I wasn't sure about the actual opinion of the editor (eg Angarag), I put it completely neutral and didn't make any suggestions. G Purevdorj (talk) 01:41, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

apparently your not reading policy. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.84.164.128 (talk • contribs)

Here is the message, copied 6 times, can someone translate what it means?:

Message:

Hurry to Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Mongolia_during_Tang_rule#Mongolia_during_Tang_rule and write down your opinion. Iim muuhai novshiin oguuleliig ali hurdanaar ustgah heregtei shuu. Eniig uldeemeer hun hojij bolohgui!!!

Ikip (talk) 07:43, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Your statement is not correct. I did use this post to address the Mongolian editors whom I knew to share my position, that is, three times. As I didn't use Mongolian for secrecy, but did address every editor in his native language, I shall translate it myself:

• "It's certainly necessary to erase such a worthless article as fast as possible. Those who want to keep it may not succeed!"

This contrasts to the text I posted to those two editors whom I didn't know to be partisan:

• Sain baina uu? Chi tuuhend sonirhoh mongol hun baigaa tul Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Mongolia_during_Tang_rule#Mongolia_during_Tang_rule gedgiin talaar ooriin sanaagaa ilerhiilmeer baij magadgui.
• Hello! As you're someone interested in [Mongolian] history, you might want to express your opinion on XY. G Purevdorj (talk) 08:00, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

User:G Purevdorj, you seem to be fairly new at editing wikipedia, but you can't do what you did. You can post a "neutral" message on the talk pages of articles, and on wikiprojects (which are groups of like minded editors), but you can't post such slanted messages on users talk pages. Yes, the rule doesn't make complete sense, in that you can post on one type of page the same message as you cannot on another page, and it tends to favor veteran editors who are well organized and have taken over a wikiproject, but such illogical, though necessary, rules, which are:

1. selectively applied and enforced
2. condone one type of behavior while condemning another, and
3. which favor veteran editors over new editors

...are the norm on wikipedia.

Note, there are penalties to post a message like this:

"It's certainly necessary to erase such a worthless article as fast as possible. Those who want to keep it may not succeed!"

...anywhere on wiki. Ikip (talk) 08:19, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I've been editing wikipedia for some time, but I usually kept away from arguments based on ideology and never before had to address an article whose mere existence constitutes what should be considered vandalism. I agree that the choice of language wasn't ideal, and I shall try to choose something more politically correct next time. Eg "As this article might indeed merit deletion and I consider this question of high importance, I would greatly value if you could contribute your opinion in order to clarify this issue". But as far as I understand the policy linked above, I am well entitled to address individual editors (even a number of individual editors) whom I know to be knowlegdable on a topic. You may notice that I didn't rally anyone not affiliated to some degree with Mongolian HISTORY (eg I didn't rally anyone whom I just knew to be Mongolian), and as I contacted 4 editors whom I considered partisan and 3 editors whose opinion I did not know (you can clearly see that from my post to InMongolia), my intent not only to influence but also to improve the discussion should be discernable. G Purevdorj (talk) 08:37, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Collecting people sharing his opinion is the right of G_Purevdorj. Go and tell a parliamentarian "Stop building a faction on a certain bill". His approach is fully valid and democratic. He didn't force anyone. If some of those who received a message from G_Purevdorj don't agree with him or lazy to participate in this discussion, they a free not to participate or even to vote to "keep" (because they get aware of the discussion). Gantuya eng (talk) 09:29, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Hardly. Wikipedia isn't a democracy, and we try to avoid politics here. We don't tolerate overt faction building either. Moreover, there are no votes on an AfD: participants give arguments, debate them etc.. and the closing editor judges which arguments are better. yandman 10:38, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

1) So you "try to avoid politics here". What the author of this article has been doing in Wikipedia since mid-December is clearly politics. Classifying editors into "pro mongolian" is also politics. Forbidding anyone to be "pro mongolian" is what?

2) Anyone has the right to invite potentially interested editors to participate in a discussion. Gantuya eng (talk) 11:13, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

While there might be cause to delete or merge this article, this doesn't appear to be a good faith effort to get a broad consensus; rather faction building like 162 said. Now if some of those references indeed demonstrate the topic's notability, then it needs to stay whether or not the article is in good shape. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 10:42, 26 February 2009 (UTC)