Talk:Religious pluralism/Archive 1

Uh, I have issues with a couple of sentences:

the Jews teach that their faith is only the most complete and accurate revelation of God to humanity that we have ........... Judaism held that although only Judaism was true

First, this characterization may lead some to believe that "pluralism" means that everyone ahs an equal right to be ethnocentric (or whatever). It isn't that I disagree with this, but this is a view an outsider (someone in an objective or non-partisan) position can believe about "religions" – this is very different from a religion itself taking a pluralist position vis a vis itself and other religions.

Second, and more important, I question the accuracy of this claim about Judaism. Does the Jewish tradition (either the sages in the Talmud, or the major midrashic works) claim that the Hebrew/Jewish religion is "the most complete an accurate?" I don't think so, although I would defer to RK or others. But I really don't believe that Judaism ever held that "only Judaism" was true.

I do believe that it held, categorically, that God exists and is one, and that all polytheistic faiths are categorically wrong. This is significant and must be recognized.

Nevertheless, this is a Jewish claim about the world, not a Jewish claim about Judaism. I mean, Genesis tells of God's relationship with Adam and Noah, the fathers of ALL of us (i.e. humanity) but although this is a "Jewish"belief in that Jews believe it, it is not a belief about Jews because Adam and Noah were not Jewish, were not Children of Israel, were not Hebrews.

Judaism (Hebrew/Israelite religion) claims that other Gods are false Gods and that other peoples will come to no good worshiping them. It also hates it when Jews worship false Gods. But I do not recall ANYTHING that suggests that Judaism as such is "true" for non-Jews. God is true for all, but Judaism as such is for Jews! Given this I do not understand the claim that "Judaism held that only Judaism was true." I just don't think Judaism ever claimed this.

Also the revelation at Sinai was a profound event for Jews. But wasn't it just for Jews? Does anything in the account claim that it was the most complete an accurate revelation of God? I am not sure that the Torah or the Talmud ever even claim that it is possible for God to reveal Himself "completely."

Perhaps I am ignorant of some important proof-texts – which I hope someone would then provide.

I have just enough doubt to not want to revise the article unilaterally -- SR

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I have an issue with the definition of religious pluralism. Isn't it not just theological attempts at reconciliation of some sort, but also political? And pluralism in a political sense is a different issue entirely from the theological sense. Perhaps this is really an article on ecumenism rather than pluralism. --Eric

Good points. First, I do think that pluralism is a political issue, among other things, but certainly a larger issue -- eventually I hope this article would be linked to a more general one on pluralism. Second, this article is motivated by some lengthy discussions on other pages, espeically "Christian anti-semitism" and "Anti-semitic verses in the New Testament;" certainly there are conceptual issues in taking elements of that discussion out of context to develop a new article -- perhaps here is where you can make more specific contributions. Finally, the issue of ecumenicism is important but I think different (although there would be value to a linked page). Ecumenicism has a narrow and a broad meaning. The narrow one is really inappropriate here -- an attempt to bring together various Christian churches/movements/sects. The broader meaning suggests some kind of universally or generally accepted claim. In the case of Christianity and Judaism, belief in God/theism is a basis for ecumenicism. But I do not think that that really gets to the issue that people here want to address. Pluralism is different from ecumencisism in that if refers to how groups with conflicting or exclusive beliefs can relate to one another. But I do not think that it is purely political in that it is a matter solely of practical institutional arrangements or simply a guarantee of freedom of religion. The fundamental issue (in my opinion) is, in what ways and to what extent does one's desire to relate to others require one to change one's conception of one's self? How is a particular religion to understand and express its own truth-claims, given that it knows, and wants to respect, religions that make opposing truth-claims? Well, this is my take on it, perhaps what I wrote will give others (hint hint RK and Wesley and perhaps others) a chance to say more and explore further what this article should and should not be about. -- SR

I see what you're saying. I think it's a great subject to talk about, although I'm not sure how it fits into an encyclopedia article. I'm not sure that pluralism is what's being discussed here, but it's not exactly ecumenism either. If it were called "theological pluralism" that might be clearer, but I'm not going to be the one to change the name at this point! On a personal note, my own religious faith makes some pretty exclusivistic claims, but it also recognizes people of other faiths have or can have considerable truth and can ultimately end up in the same place. But not all people believe that way. It is an interesting subject. --Eric

Not even having read the article, I'd say that unless we can supply a citation from a theologian or religion professor or two, using the exact phrase "religious pluralism," the article is going to have to be changed radically--renamed, deleted, etc. We are reporting about actual scholarship here, not doing it ourselves. --LMS

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No comments on the content here, just an explanation of what I did:

• moved the page to a lower-case title (but not this talk page--too much trouble to do that, just changed the link). We'd write "religious pluralism," I guess, not "Religious Pluralism," so the lower-case title is better. See naming conventions.

• bolded the title.

• removed the bullets. Generally, in an encyclopedia, I think it's best to stick with full prose sentences. Bullets are a bit overused on Wikipedia, I think, just because they're so easy to use--not because they are necessary.

--Larry Sanger