Talk:Elvis Presley

I can't think of anything more disturbing that the thought of Wikipedia bowing to racial prejudice.

If this cant be removed then please shorten the argument, I am not finding any conclusions out of this, if you strongly think this is important then by all means keep it, but this is way too long.--RafiCHAMP¹ 23:04, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry sir, but I do not agree with sweeping information under the rug - palatable or not. No clearer justification for this can be shown than racism. The underpinnings of Wikipedia is the improvement of human knowledge. Racism divides us; it limits our thinking.

Besides, if it is controversial, then it is of note. If it is of note, then Wikipedia should include it, and do so proportionally to the importance to the topic (obviously it is extremely important in this case or people would not be so motivated to manipulate it). If it is verifiable information it should be included period. If it is changed 600 times, especially in the case of racial prejudice, then it should be corrected 601 times. Sooner or later somebody will come along and post that information again anyway. Throwing our hands up in disgust or cowering away from facing up to the responsibility of Wikipedia to prevent wrong or biased information from being disseminated in its name shouldn't even be given a second thought. I certainly realize the difficulty, but work important to human progress is rarely easy.

I would suggest putting a disclaimer on the page that information has been removed because it upsets some people, but it would significantly reduce my respect for Wikipedia if that were to occur.

I'll end my rant there, but this greatly troubles me. I won't change the page until I have 100% verifiable, undeniable evidence of everything I post on this page, but assuming I can obtain that proof I will change the page to reflect the facts. I hope and expect that the people most involved with editing this page will jealously guard those facts from being removed, as this is important knowledge for all of us - changing it 601 times if necessary. Webjedi (talk) 16:51, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi Webjedi. Please pardon my ignorance (perhaps you are referring to something that happened or was discussed before I started here) but would you be so kind as to explain in a little more detail what has upset you so much? I'd hate to think something within this article is inaccurate, and I'd be even more horrified if something within this article was offensive to anyone. Also, it would be easier for me to monitor what is upsetting if I knew what it was. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 17:05, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

See Talk Archive 23. In July I read this article and saw that the fact that he was Jewish was left out even though other components of his ancestry were listed and yet there was a reference at the bottom of the page Entitled Elvis's Jewish Roots. Furthermore, he was part Native American. A Jewish Native American! In other words, he was a good 'ole American mutt (most of us are). There aren't many people in history that have made such an impact as he did. Few (if any) have the power to contribute to social understanding 30 years post mortem. Certainly there are no other Native American Jews that have fundamentally changed an entire society.

I incorrectly connected the reasoning on that page with the removal of my edit. Going back through, I now see my change was removed due to construction of the article. Nevertheless the original reference was removed for desire to be rid of controversy. Apparently there are still many people that refuse to accept he was not 100% WASP. I don't want to accuse people of being racist but when you have an article being vandalized or edit wars going on there is something behind it. I simply feel Wikipedia has a responsibility to be an engine of social progress, and leaving out the fact that one of the greatest icons in our nation's history was so racially diverse is sidestepping that duty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by W3bj3d1 (talk • contribs) 17:59, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I've added a new reference that backs up the claims he was of Jewish heritage. I noticed in at least one of the previous references it was mentioned, but the one I've added is primarily about that subject. From what I understand, the term "mixed ancestry" was used to remove the listy feel of every nationality and religion Elvis was. There are plenty of references linked to that, however, and each read is quite detailed and informative. Perhaps, if others felt it was a good idea, you could begin a section on his diverse backgrounds? I know that I find it fascinating that Elvis had such a wide and varied ancestry, and must admit that I don't know too much about it. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 18:51, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I concur, it should be topic of further exploration. Not just that he was Jewish, but that he was mixed in the true 'melting pot' style of America. If there is anything uniquely American, it is Elvis; and I think for all those who preach against "racial impurity" it goes to show how very wrong they are.

BTW, in order to be considered Jewish a person has to come from an unbroken line of female Jews going back to before the time of the Roman Empire. Jews account for something like .02% of World population. American Indians are about 1/4 that number making up ~.005% of World population. If I'm doing my math right that means he had <1 in 80,000 chance of being included in those two lines of ancestry simultaneously (though that doesn't account for entropy due to the his proximity to the full-blooded Native American lineage). —Preceding unsigned comment added by W3bj3d1 (talk • contribs) 03:40, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to the previous editor for summarizing the unbelievable silliness of the "Elvis was Jewish" idea. It's small wonder that this article about a fine American artist, and an honorable military serviceman, was removed from GA status. Large parts of the article are just plain rubbish! Let me point out just one glaring defect: Elvis recorded many Gospel songs, a huge part of his output if you look through the discography - and his faith was a central part of his life (hence the "Graceland" name). But there's hardly a mention of it in the article. How many of you editors have even been to an Elvis concert? If you had attended even one concert, you'd be able to immediately spot the massive disconnect between the reality of Elvis in real life and the silly pointless twaddle in this article. The whole thing reads like it was written by 9/11 truthers. Bushcutter (talk) 04:14, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't actually think anywhere in the article that it says Presley was Jewish. There is a link to the heritage part which explains in detail as much about his Jewish heritage as his other heritage, but it doesn't actually state he is Jewish anywhere in the article itself. And this might just be a minor point to some who don't actually know the facts, but Graceland wasn't named by Presley and so his faith has absolutely nothing to do with the name Graceland. It was named after the daughter of the man who built it, S. E. Toof. Care to guess the name of his daughter? Anyone who answered Grace can have a point! Secondly, there is more than enough evidence to back up claims that Presley had Jewish heritage, and there is also enough evidence to suggest that Presley knew of his Jewish roots. To be of Jewish heritage is maternal acquisition because there is no mistaking who is the mother of a child. Because Presley's Jewish heritage ran uninterrupted down through his maternal grandmothers, according to Jewish law Presley would be considered Jewish. He may not have openly advertised the fact he knew of his Jewish roots, and he may not have taken part in any kind of Jewish tradition, but there's no denying that he had Jewish ancestry. He put a Star of David on his mothers grave when she died, so I hardly think we can say that he kept it a complete secret. Please feel free to discuss the article and suggest corrections or improvements, but if you are going to do so at least use information that is accurate in future. I don't mind how many people come here and point out mistakes or improvements, but I do mind people who come here and don't know the facts before attacking other editors for the amount of hard work they have put into an article. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 10:47, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Were you aware that a lot of Christian churches have the Star of David in them? As proof of anything, it fails. Collect (talk) 13:33, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say it proved anything at all. From all I have read it was because of her Jewish roots that he did it. If you have an alternative source that undoubtedly proves it was for other reasons then I'd be very happy to read it. The decision was made by him in honour of his Jewish heritage, something his mother was proud of and acknowledged to Elvis at a very early age. It may very well be used by a lot of Christian Churches, but it is generally recognised as a Jewish symbol, and as Gladys was open with Elvis about their ancestry, I see no reason to doubt that it was placed there for that very reason, especially as her gravestone carries both the Star of David and a Cross. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 13:47, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

WP requires cites for claims, not proof that the claim was errant. In short - do you have a cite quoting him as saying he did it because she was Jewish? By the way, many Muslims also use the Magen David -- so using it as proof of "Jewishness" is even weaker than you might have thought. Unless you find a reliable source on your claim, it does not belong in the article. Thanks! Collect (talk) 13:54, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

It's not in the article at all. The only part of the article that links to anything about Elvis having Jewish ancestry is in the Early Life section, where a link or two were placed for those who felt it should be mentioned. It doesn't say anywhere that Elvis was, is or thought of himself as Jewish. By all accounts, he didn't think of himself as Jewish, but he did know of his Jewish ancestry. What is wrong with that? ElvisFan1981 (talk) 13:58, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, there you go. Collect, I think we're just whistling in the wind here. The ensuing discussion shows more than ever that few, if any, here have a clue what Elvis was really about in real life, and clearly none of obsessive types have ever been to an Elvis concert and seen the man in real life and listened to him sing from his heart. The obsession with irrelevant trivia (his "Jewishness", the clueless discussion of his mother's addictions, trying to find evidence of "racial prejudice" in the man, his lack of sexual perversions, the lack of understanding of his annoyance with the Beatles, the low quality discussion of his military service, and the almost total lack of discussion of the most important part of his life: his Christian faith) is what has driven the quality of this article down from "not bad" status, to its present "bloody awful" status. Bushcutter (talk) 20:21, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

What seems to be the problem here? This whole section starts with someone complaining about there being no mention of Presley's Jewish roots. So what is done? A link, only a link, no actual mention in the article, about his Jewish ancestry. Now we have people complaining that it mentions it at all? How do we go forward with this? If we remove the link, which is all that it is, then someone will come along and complain about it not being included. If we keep in the link, which is all that it is, then someone will come along and complain about it being included. I for one, don't have any interest either way about Elvis and his Jewish ancestry. It wasn't me that initially brought up the whole Jewish thing, and it wasn't me who put the first link. I only added one extra link for someone who thought it had been missed out. It's what it is, it's suggested in the article, and that's it. If any of you feel you can do a better job of the article then feel free. I'm interested to see how it goes and how well those people deal with free-flowing criticism of nearly everything they've written. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 19:34, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm bemused by Bushcutter's bitter comments here. If he/she wants to, they should post rewrites or edits of the sections that are so disliked (with supporting citations). Bushcutter clearly has little knowledge of how this article has had to evolve to keep various ardent editors happy; several, if not all, currently active editors are less than happy with the article, but it is a lot better than it was before any nominations. It was downgraded to B class because of failure to agree on edits to reduce its length. If Bushcutter is an unhappy reader, can I suggest they make positive suggestions regarding change, and refrain from gratuitously insulting the positive, time-consuming and arduous efforts of editors who could quite easily have kissed this god-forsaken article good bye a long time ago. Rikstar (talk) 18:03, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

As always when this comes up, the most straightforward solution would be the "mixed ancestry" statement followed with the references for all of the "groups" in the mix. This doesn't sweep anything under the rug. It acknowledges it, but in a way that doesn't give it importance out of proportion to the entire man, his life, and his importance. This is more or less what we have now, but someone feels the Cherokee part deserves special mention. Maybe someone would like to start an article on Elvis's Ancestry? As Rikstar points out, we've keep going over the same ground here.Steve Pastor (talk) 19:49, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

The Cherokee mention is made as the immediate prior mention is about his primarily European ancestry. Most people do not consider Cherokees to be European. Yes, we could have absolutely zero mention of his ancestry. The mention now is far shorter than it had been when the article was most bloated. Collect (talk) 13:05, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, see, although many Jewish people came to the US from Europe, the ancestral home of the Jewish people isn't in Europe. So, by the same logic of "the Cherokee aren't from Europe"....you could make a case for Presley's Jewish ancestry being mentioned. I think it's best to have no exceptions to all of the mix being in references. But it's not a big deal.Steve Pastor (talk) 15:58, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

For well over a thousand years, the Ashkenazim (literally "German Jews") have been European. Collect (talk) 16:38, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to respectfully suggest that there's a level of authoritarian ignorance at play here that dooms this article. For instance, the obsession with race, ancestry, and racism completely dishonors Elvis' Christian faith in which the concept of "race" doesn't exist. Amongst Christian believers, there is no color or race. And here's a note from the section below to show an example of an editor gratuitously re-introducing an utterly pointless bit of trivial trash: "I have reincluded the remark relating to Gladys's drinking problem, as it is of some importance." How does this type of scurrilous rubbish - whether it's true or not - contribute to a good quality article? Answer: it doesn't. It belongs in an article about Gladys, not Elvis. The result is an article that is so bad that the reader can't help but feel waves of shame from reading such mean-spirited nastiness. I can only weep at the mean and grinding insults being heaped upon the memory of a fine, gallant, and honorable American man by people who have never met him. It's painful to see it. Bushcutter (talk) 06:46, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I mean no disrespect when I say this, Bushcutter, you clearly sound like an intelligent person who is interested in seeing this article reach its potential, but sadly you are coming across as an obsessive fan who thinks that Presley was a perfect man with no failings. We know that isn't true. He was an adulterer, a liar, a drug user/abuser, and he contemplated murder on at least one occasion. That's just the stuff we know about. It's not things that have been made up by any editor here, it's facts that have been cited and spoken of by the men and women who knew, worked with, loved and lived with Presley for many of his years on this planet. I don't understand your point about "the obsession with race, ancestry, and racism..." as there is no mention in the article about his race or ancestry except for one sentence at the very beginning that links to other sites for the facts. Regarding the racism, I haven't read anywhere in the article that says he was a racist. There are claims that he acted or spoke in a racist manner on occasion, but there is also a counterbalance to suggest that it was taken out of context and he wasn't a racist. You might feel it's not relevant to the article, and that's your prerogative, but as it is a direct attack on Presley, it is only fair for it to be defended against, and again it doesn't go into such great detail that it requires hacking to pieces. You constantly bring up his Christian faith, and it's common knowledge that Presley was a strong believer in God and was a charitable man in many ways, but let us not allow a man's faith to be a cloak of invisibility over the rest of his life. Presley was human. Flesh and blood like any of us, and he had his faults and sins which he couldn't escape. If we were to remove everything in the article that is negative towards this man, then it would genuinely be a "fan shrine" which is something that I personally do not want it to become. It's quite amusing, really, that nearly every regular editor of this article has been accused at some point of being an obsessed Presley fan attempting to build a shrine to his memory, and yet it's those regular editors who are the most fair, balanced and open-minded people working on it. I really cannot understand how this article can be fair and balanced if when it is a little positive we get attacked for it, and if it is a little negative we get attacked for it. As Rikstar has suggested above, if you wish to improve the article, then it would be much more resourceful for you to put your energies into that rather than complaining about the current content. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 10:51, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I guess it's the lack of decency in this article that getting to me. There was a time when people would say,"Speak no ill of the departed." The reason for not speaking ill is that it demeans the speaker because the departed has no chance to defend himself. Every one of us has defects and has contemplated murder, but decent people don't go on and on about that fact after the subject is dead and gone. Elvis did his best, yet many here are trying to tear him to shreds. Even if Elvis' defects are worth dragging out of the closet, surely you should have the decency to explain (as rebuttal) why he was in such pain near the end of his life. The article presents him as a demented, immoral pervert (which we all are at heart), and let it go at that. You could make the same case against Abraham Lincoln, or John F Kennedy - but what's the point? They're all dead, and we only need to know how they overcame weakness, not the details of their weaknesses. We don't learn from studying peoples' defects; we learn from studying how they overcame their defects and did something great in the world. To dwell on defects and troubles only shows the editors as mean-minded gossips. Nothing useful is conveyed. As an encyclopedia article, it's nasty and useless.

Now let me suggest another direction: Elvis was born into a troubled and poor family. He overcame these handicaps with a strong faith. He continually acknowledged his faith, and sang publicly about it (why doesn't this article mention that?) He was grateful for his country and was willing to serve it. He was manipulated by clever people who took advantage of him. He found it difficult to live with celebrity isolation from his roots. His troubles culminated in his premature death. No gossipy details about how maybe he's Jewish, or his mother's addictions, or his father's scams, or how he died. Elvis has a heart-rending and sad story to tell, a story that's useful to future generations, but this article isn't even close. We all can learn much from his life story, but this article is simply annoying and mean. Bushcutter (talk) 07:54, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

The myth surrounding his first public performance

In the article, an oft-told story is written as follows:

"On October 3, 1945, at age ten, he made his first public performance in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show at the suggestion of his teacher Mrs. J.C. Grimes. Dressed as a cowboy, the young Presley had to stand on a chair to reach the microphone and sang Red Foley's "Old Shep." He came second, winning $5 and a free ticket to all the Fair rides."

Jaye9 has done some digging amongst some good sources and it seems Elvis did not come second as is commonly believed and accepted. So this may have to be rewritten, or a note added. Rikstar (talk) 22:39, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm all for this being replaced if there is a decent enough reference for it. From what I gather, he may have come fifth, and even later on claimed to recall fifth place himself when questioned. I haven't ever seen any evidence to back up this claim, however, and that is perhaps why the myth is that he came second. If there's a good enough reference to back up these claims, then it should be added. If the reference is from a questionable source, however, it should be considered very carefully before being added. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 22:49, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

ElvisFan, Thank you so much for your response. I take you've read my comments on Rikstar's talk page and the points you've made are very valid and sensible. Okay here we go: what is cited in the article is from David Stanley? When I brought up the question of the myth of Elvis coming 2nd, it just got me bugged. The few sources I found seemed to show enough evidence for me to question the story, thats all. Granted, Bill Burk's books are self published. I think and alot people quite possibly don't know that out there and the video I saw only was released in 2008. There is the mention on it of Elvis wearing a cowboy outfit on stage, a friend of mind has loaned me boxes of Elvis books (I think my family's getting a little worried). However I have only seen two photo's of Elvis in a Cowboy Outfit, except for Television stint on Steve Allen Show I think by memory. The two photo's are 1.Thirteen-year-old Elvis in cowboy gear, not long before the Presley family moved to memphis (with mountain back drop and fence) prop source: Elvis Handbook by Tara McAdams 2. Photography taken of Elvis in September 1953, captures the young Presley in a moody pose with his cousin Gene Smith, both are dressed as cowboys. Source: The Official Collector's Edition Part 9.

The two photo's of Elvis at that fair show elvis in same trousers with suspenders (that hold the trousers up) and same shirt. It's just that I havn't seen a photo of him in a cowboy outfit when he was ten, not saying there isn't.

In regard to David Stanley :) I'm not saying his lying, far from it, he may be repeating something he has heard like so many others. Peter Gurlanick even says it, he is my favourite author, it has not swayed my opinion of him at all, for reasons I explained above, it just may have got missed. As I said to Rikstar, if anyone here believes there is insufficient evidence to mention this in the article or make a note, we'll just drop it. Thank you--Jaye9 (talk) 12:22, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Hey Jaye. I don't think it should be dropped, far from it. I think it's very interesting to find that it may just be a myth. As a fan of Elvis for over twenty years since the age of five myself, and having read many books and collected many films and books on him and I have come across the suggestion that he may have not come second, but I have never seen or read any evidence to properly support the claim. I think the fact there isn't a photograph of him at the fair is interesting too, as you would expect it to have made the local paper. It then raises the question of whether there is a photograph at all, even of the three winners who are supposed to have beaten Elvis? I've never seen such a photograph either. Of course, it must be noted that a lot of material from those days were not kept or archived the way that material today is. The two photo's you speak of, I've seen also, and are obviously not from the fair. I've never heard of the writer you speak of, but that doesn't mean that he isn't a well respected author and should be ignored. I think if he has a valid point to be made then it should possibly be included. I am, however, willing to accept the change because elvis.com states fifth place [1], That is enough for me to be happy for it to be changed. It's from the most reliable source we could possibly have, and therefore must accept it. If no one has any objections, I suggest we change it today. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 12:49, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Hey E, I shouldn't mention this but I've just come home from a party and I hardy ever drink,but I had a glass of wine with a cork in it,but I still have my facualties. I forgot to mention the Elvis On Tour out takes that Bill Burk talks about where Elvis mentions about possibly coming firth and that he wore glasses for a brief time in the fifth grade, I watched it on tuesday,I tell you this friend of mine has everything on him and it's obviously a bootleg,part of it has no sound,it's distorted in places,but Elvis does say these exact words. I must admit it was a little painfull to watch,as I like things done with quality,but I had to hear it for myself. I think Bill Burk's books are out of print now,I'm not sure and he passed away a little while back. However if you go on the internet you can order the the Elvis On Tour Out Takes and the Video Elvis-Return to Tupelo. The Elvis-Return to Tupelo is well worth watching.--Jaye9 (talk) 13:12, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I own the bootlegged Elvis on Tour Special Edition but haven't got round to watching yet. I also watched Return to Tupelo twice and found it fascinating. Will definitely be buying that when I am able to. It's hard to tell how serious Elvis was being without actually having seen him remark on it, but I'll try to have a look over the weekend. I think we should change it to fifth place, as it appears that it's the more accurate telling. Wherever the source for it has come from, it was good enough for EPE to change their records. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 13:18, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I have never seen or heard any first or second hand accounts that Elvis came second. Just third hand biographers accounts. From what Jaye9 has shown, some people who were actually there say he was fifth, and I don't think those people have a vested interest in lying about it. If EPE, who are used elsewhere in the article, say it's fifth because of their own research, I agree with ElvisFan that it should be changed, and EPE is cited. Go ahead and change it.Rikstar (talk) 13:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Elvis.com says fifth, so I have no beef there. But the statement by Rikstar that, "...people who were actually there..." would not have a "...vested interest in lying about it..." is troubling. Whether any person would actually lie about anything does not affect the fact that all losers ('also-rans') and their families do have a "vested interest" in lying about it. This is driven by the human spirit of competition and the desire to be 'first' or 'better' than others. This is a human trait. It is the same trait that makes some men stuff a rolled-up sock in the crotch area of their tight jeans. It's the same trait that makes spare-tire guys suck it in as much as possible when a pretty woman walks by. It's the same trait that keeps the falsies, padded bras, and Silicon breast implant businesses in business. Just an observation. . . Joe Hepperle (talk) 10:44, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Rikstar exactly,

I read an interview on Peter Gurlanick and it was interesting, because when Gurlanick was interviewing Sam Phillips he said to him, don't trust anyone, follow your gut instinct and when I watched the Elvis-Return to Tupelo alot them never get interviewed and I carn't image the National Enquirer knocking on their door any time soon. They just seemed genuine, with nothing to gain. I've met DJ Fontana and Red and Pat West,spent a little time with them. I meam it was only a few weeks, you carn't really get to know people that much it that time, but the way they conducted themselves, if Presley was a quarter as a nice as they were, he's alright in my books--Jaye9 (talk) 14:21, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I thought, Jaye, after reading this, that YOU had met DJ and Red West, but I read it again... Rikstar (talk) 15:54, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes I have, Rikstar, it's a vague memory now,it was a few years ago. Very nice regular folks,as they say. Pat West likes the band AC/DC,you won't read that in a Presley book.--Jaye9 (talk) 20:00, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Hey ElvisFan, Just read elvis.com. Good Job! Gota go and make Christmas Cake and Pudding fun job,not. Will be back tommorrow.--Jaye9 (talk) 20:45, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Minor changes

I tried changinging from "commonly called by his first name" to "commonoly called "Elvis" in the lead, and removing his return "with acclaim" to just his return, and the subsequent word "thereafter" as unneeded wordage. It was reverted, but I would like to know actually why "thereafter" and "with acclaim" and the change to actually citing his first name was so quickly opposed. Thanks! Collect (talk) 11:16, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Hello Collect. The main thing I noticed in your minor changes was that it read as follows: 'A cultural icon, he is commonly called "Elvis", and as the "King of Rock and Roll"', which doesn't read well. Presley made bad movies, then returned to good live performing. This is reflected in the article's opening summary by reference to poorly reviewed films and, by contrast, a well-received TV special, ie. the performance was acclaimed, and the citation given supports that view, just as the citation before it supports the fact that his films were badly reviewed. So I guess I reverted it to draw attention to why it was written that way in the first place. "Thereafter" could go arguably: maybe any such proposed minor changes could be posted and discussed here first if they are disputed. Any improvements would be welcome. Rikstar (talk) 06:26, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I consider "Commonly called "Elvis" to be pretty straightforward -- reverting it instead of removing "as" is not the way to get an article improved. Adverbial phrases which are not important to the factual content of an article are also quite unimportant. As for "badly reviewed" that is "opinion" and not fact (how are you to know whether the films were simply given their proper reviews, or were unfairly panned, which appears to be the reason for having "badly reviewed" in the text?) As for removing "thereafter" and "however" and the like -- they are non-controversial, and asking for a twenty line explanation for a ten character removal is absurd. I would ask that you do a self-revert and edit, as otherwie it appears you are asserting ownership of the article. Reverting minor edits is not the way to get other editors to assist in fixing an over-long article. Thanks! Collect (talk) 11:47, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Let's assume good faith, and as such I will do a self-revert. I do not own this article, and never thought I did. Rikstar (talk) 20:57, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I think that "commonly referred to by his first name" sounds better. I'll explain why. It's obvious that he was "commonly called Elvis", because that was his name. Also, I think it's interesting that he was one of the first acts in musical history to be recognised simply by his first name. How many others can you name from before or during his early career? I think that the impact of "commonly referred to by his first name only" explains that in a great way, and illustrates how important his name was. Frank? Dean? James? All these names mean nothing without the surnames. Elvis, however, has an immediate impact and I think the article definitely read and sounded better the way it originally was. Supposedly it's been changed because it saves "space" but as it only saves a few words, I don't think it's a dramatic difference. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 22:38, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Um -- last I looked, his first name was "Elvis" -- using the circumlocution of "first name" makes little sense. And he was not the first to be called by his first name, nor will he be the last. Look at "Aretha" and "Madonna" for example. Or "Bing" even. And I know some would like the article to be a paean to Elvis, but the purpose of WP is to make encyclopedia articles, not to have mini-shrines embedded in it <g>. Thanks. Collect (talk) 22:57, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say he was the first, I was emphasising how rare it was. There weren't many before his time who could be recognised by their first name in the music business, and I feel that the original sentence was an appropriate way of pointing out that fact. Bing is a good example, but Madonna and Aretha came after. I don't want this article to be a shrine to Elvis, far from it. I hope that it can be a well balanced article with good and bad points about the man. So far, every editor that I have experienced working on it has been open-minded enough to use both good and bad. I'm not going to argue with anyone over the opening paragraph and I am not pushing for it to be changed, I am merely stating my own opinion that I felt the way it was suited the article better. That is the purpose of the discussion page. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 23:35, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Enrico. Actually first names go back a long way for people who have reasonably unusual ones. <g> In any case, the aim is always improving the article, not fighting. Thanks. Collect (talk) 00:01, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I know plenty of 80+ years-olds who love Bing Crosby, and he has always been referred to by both names - rarely just "Bing", but many in the same care home will refer to "Elvis". Local anecdotal evidence maybe, but I don't think it's the exception. I've never heard in discussions about opera singers that someone loves "Enrico"; he's always "Caruso" or his full name is used. Having an unusual name is not the point here. I actually took a lot of stick when I changed "Elvis" (which a lot of editors used) to "Presley" to standardize things throughout this article; clearly a lot of people think he is and should be commonly referred to as Elvis - it is his moniker, not merely his first name. Are there editors of Crosby and Caruso filling their talkpages with requests to have their first names used throughout? A reference to all this was what was intended in the summary - a point made by ElvisFan1981.

The reference to "poorly reviewed" movies IS ambiguous; the majority of Presley films were critically panned, and that is what the summary is supposed to say - not that the reviews were unfair. This should be changed.

It would perhaps be more constructive if points like this were discussed without implying or assuming bias on the part of "Elvis fans": some of us editors have put up with a tiresome number of unfounded accusations of bias, whilst we have shown time and again that we have supported the balanced view, even putting in negative material that would make most "Elvis Worshippers" weep. Challenging an edit is one thing, but accusations, whether direct or implied, are quite another. Please, let's all assume good faith. Thanks in anticipation. Rikstar (talk) 09:55, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I surely did not mean to imply bias. I did mean to imply that the article is likely too long <g> and that sensible pruning would make it more readable. Collect (talk) 12:46, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Collect. My sincerest apologies for reverting your first edit; I am sure it was made with the best of intentions. I fully agree that sensible pruning is a real option: it has been attempted by editors before, including myself, but agreement has been difficult to achieve. I live in hope! Many thanks for your involvement with this article. Rikstar (talk) 20:45, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Songwriter?

Presley didn't write songs. Heslopian's recent edit needs reverting. Rikstar (talk) 09:50, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree on this. Presley did co-write at least one song I know of, and was a very good song arranger, but I think that calling him a singer-songwriter is a bit over the top because he's not someone I consider in that genre. The majority of the songs (50's) that Presley was credited with were for publishing reasons, at the recommendation (for want of a better word) of Col. Parker. I think that as an arranger he as far superior, and it's well documented about how much control he took over the production of the majority of his songs. If no one has any objections by the end of the day, or a good reason for why it shouldn't be reverted, then I'll take the step if no one has done so before hand. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 13:47, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I left a message for Heslopian asking him to revert his edit, but someone had to do it, so thanks! Rikstar (talk) 06:48, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

I realize there's only so much room for each artist here, but unlike a lot of other artists here, I find a shameful lack of any real comprehensive analysis of Elvis' work, how massively important and groundbreaking it was, and why. A lack of in-depth look into his most important songs and albums. Elvis wasn't a "songwriter" in the literal sense of the word, but he had an innate and deeply natural musical sense and musical ear. He was a master interpreter of song and a master reinventer of songs. Most of his hits were not covers, but his covers in general were usually so dramtically altered and rearranged by him, they were practically new songs. Once he left Sun Records for RCA where he hit it big, he almost immediately took complete control of most every one of his recording sessions throughout his career, because he was getting none of the help he had had with Sam Phillips at Sun. In those days, especially in pop and rock music, the artist was rarely credited with producing and arranging, but Elvis did both for the large majority of his recordings. Steve Sholes was the RCA Victor A&R man in the 50's and early 60's, and while he was often at the sessions in an official capacity and was labeled the producer, much as Felton Jarvis was later on, it has been very well documented over the decades by countless people who were in the studio with him throughout his career that Elvis was in complete charge and knew exactly what he wanted, from instrumentation, to vocals, to backing vocals, to mixing (particularly the non-movie song mixes) - the entire arranging and production process. He had it all in his head. Elvis never had a George Martin or a Quincy Jones. He did it himself. More than anything, Sholes and Jarvis were there to give him what he wanted, and regardless of what they thought, if Elvis liked or didn't like something, his was the final word. There are accounts of him going ballistic upon hearing a mix that had been changed after he had left the studio. He has never been properly credited with this entire aspect in the mainstream, and if this place is legit, it needs to be corrected here. This "he didn't write songs" crap, mostly brought up in recent years and meant in a negative way usually by people who know nothing about him, is so blatantly ignorant and missing the point with Elvis Presley so badly, it's criminal. I'm pretty sure Aretha Franklin didn't write many songs, but she's still the "Queen of Soul" for a reason. Elvis, especially someone like Elvis, needs to be properly credited in what is supposed to be a proper encyclopedia and bio. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.4.15.158 (talk) 02:35, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Sprituality

This article is biased to cover up aspects of Elvis Presley's spirituality that disturb the majority of his fans, including his exploration of Mormonism and possible baptism in the Mormon church, which is well documented in articles and even movies (http://blog.ldspad.com/2007/10/26/elvis-presley-mormon-king-of-rock-and-roll/). It is not not inline with Wikipedia's policies to suppress information like this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.169.142.141 (talk) 20:08, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

"This article is biased to cover up aspects of Elvis Presley's spirituality that disturb the majority of his fans".

It could just as easily be asserted that edits about Mormonism are an attempt to promote said church by including information in high profile articles from sources with vested interests. Neither argument assumes good faith, which is another wiki policy. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 01:57, 5 January 2009 (UTC)"

->That's a foolish rebuttal. If something is factual, or debately factual, and releveant to the article, it properly belongs in the article. Material doesn't violate Wikipedia policy simply because one cross-segment of the population is interested in it, promotes it, or appreciates it, while another group is disinterested in it, and wants to suppress it. I propose the following statement be prepended to this article on the topic, which statement I think is fair, "Elvis Presley owned a Book of Mormon which he is known to have read, and which is marcated throughout in his own handwriting. The extent, or nature of, his interest in Mormonism is undetermined and debated."

That statement is bias within itself. Elvis was known, through his interviews and related sources, to have not been associated with the Latter Day Saint movement. Your source is a Blog, blogs are not viable sources at all. 74.5.111.155 (talk) 06:38, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Elvis was affiliated with the Mormon Church and a Book of Mormon with his handwriting expressing belief in the precepts of that church exists. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,650195503,00.html You Elvis fans may not like this fact, but that doesnt' change that it is a fact and should be in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.169.147.18 (talk) 07:19, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Too many headlines

There are way too many useless headlines, therefore I am removing the ones 1. Havent been updated in a long time 2. Useless

You dont like what I am doing please tell me why you think that headline should stay on my talk page.--RafiCHAMP¹ 23:08, 31 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rafichamp (talk • contribs) 22:52, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

These "useless headlines" form part of every talk page eventually. They are the headings for topics of discussion. They are not to be removed at will, but archived when there are too many on a page, as on this one (they may be needed for future reference, especially regarding disputes). This talkpage already has 7 archives. More of it should be archived, but I'm not sure how to do it. Rikstar (talk) 13:54, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I have archived most of this talkpage - see 'November 2008' in the list above. Rikstar (talk) 15:29, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Let's start over - new sandbox version proposed

Due to general feelings of dissatisfaction with the Elvis Presley main article, I have edited it down, but added much needed images, to half the size here: [2].

Everyone please note: this is not what I consider a finished piece; no version of it will please everyone; it has been a sincere attempt to cut bloat and editors should refrain from adding, or re-adding, extraneous stuff; I have not included links to all sub articles; it may contain errors, and anyone is free to suggest corrections.

And please, in the spirit of wikipedia, let's make all comments/criticism helpful, encouraging and positive! Times are hard for many of us and may get worse; if tapping a few keys to improve this article is a welcome source of relief or satisfaction for any of us, please, let's all support it! Happy New year. Rikstar (talk) 01:13, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I also think most of this talk page should be archived, but I haven't looked at how to do it yet. If anyone wants to volunteer... Rikstar (talk) 01:18, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I for one wholeheartedly support this and reading it recently has given me a much needed boost of renewed enthusiasm and hope of achieving a better understanding of Presley by avoiding the temptation to overhype his achievements or for that matter belittle him for his failings. Either way I believe detracts the reader from what your trying to say.

I recently discussed here on the talk page the myth surrounding his first public appearance. To the editor who corrected it to fifth place thank you,however the bit about the cowboy outfit is still there. I am only mentioning this as it doesn't exactley sit with me very well as the sources I used and the one user: Elvis Fan found with elvis.com all confer with the fifth placing,but mention nothing about the cowboy outfit,makes me wonder if it should stay in the article. Perhaps if we replaced it with "The talent show is broadcast over WELO Radio" Source: elvis.com and the other sources say this a well. Any thoughts? or am I being a little over the top here.--Jaye9 (talk) 11:44, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think what he wore is at all relevant, even it it is true. If it's not in the source, it should be cut. Rikstar (talk) 11:58, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

As you have omitted most of the criticism together with the personal life sections, you should rename the current sandbox version of the article. Perhaps "Elvis Presley's step-by-step development into a gospel-minded rock 'n' roll superstar" would now be a more appropriate title. Sorry, but in view of this new, "abridged" version, I am very happy with the long Wikipedia article as it stands. Onefortyone (talk) 00:11, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

By the way, last year there was a kind of consensus in favor of this relatively short version of the article's first section:

Presley's father, Vernon (April 10, 1916–June 26, 1979) was a malingerer, averse to work and responsibility. He had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver. His mother, Gladys Love Smith (April 25, 1912–August 14, 1958), was "voluble, lively, full of spunk," and had alcohol problems. She worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and were married in Pontotoc County on June 17,1933.

Presley was born in East Tupelo, the second of identical twins (his brother was stillborn). As an only child he was "unusually close to his mother." The family lived in a two room house just above the poverty line.Template:Fn In 1938, Vernon Presley was jailed for a check forgery. The absence of his father "had a profound effect upon Elvis' emotional development".

At age ten, Presley won second prize in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show for his rendition of Red Foley's "Old Shep".

In 1946, Presley got his first guitar. In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. At school, Presley was bullied for being different, a stutterer and "a mama's boy." At L. C. Humes High School, he was viewed as "a sad, shy, not especially attractive boy"; some students made fun of him for playing "trashy" hillbilly music.

In 1949, the family lived at a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in a five-piece band with other tenants. He occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income, and began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and he was mocked for it. Despite any unpopularity, Presley won as a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" singing "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You".

After graduation, Presley was still rather shy and “more comfortable just sitting there with a guitar than trying to talk to you." His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. Like his fellow drivers, he began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail".

I support this version with the first reference provided above to back the statement of her drinking and Rikstar's additional of their elopement. Lara❤Love 01:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

So do I - let's have some clear preferences noted on here!--Egghead06 (talk) 08:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I concur, absolutely, unequivocally. Except for the omission of the Johnny Burnette quote, but I'm not gonna let that get in the way of this article's progress. Rikstar (talk) 09:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

These are clear statements. However, Rikstar may add the Burnette quote as he thinks it is "interesting and relevant."Onefortyone (talk) 15:24, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

However, nothing has happened. Onefortyone (talk) 00:25, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Been there, done that, nothing happened, move on.--Jaye9 (talk) 03:32, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

It is interesting that 141 rates so highly a 'B' rated article about Presley; I wonder what changes he thinks will improve it. LaraLove bowed out of this discussion noting that 141 seemed to have an agenda; I am certainly not inclined to get involved in 141's established need to add negative content that many other editors have tired of criticizing, going back many months ago. As Jaye9 says: "Been there, done that, nothing happened, move on." Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 19:47, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

In order not to confuse issues, I propose that further discussion of the sandbox version should continue only on the talk page of the sandbox article. Thank you. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 20:48, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I complimented you there. The sandbox article is, in my opinion, a superior effort. Collect (talk) 21:42, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Questioning of sources

I'm questioning a couple of sources that have been used on the Main Page under the title "First recordings and performances". I'll do one at time,wait for a response and then move on to the next one if that's okay.

First being:where is says "(The DJ mispronounced Presley's apparently unusual name as "Elton Preston")[61] Source:Carr and Farren,p.6 My Response: It doesn't make sense to me,when the DJ being Dewey Phillip's could get it wrong, and with such another uncommen name such as Elton and after reading what Jerry Hopkins wrote,who makes no mention of this error, makes it more unbelievable,as Dewey already knew Sam Phillips before he even intervieved Elvis on radio,here's a except from his book about that interview and the playing of the record.(Sorry it's a bit long)

"He was a tall wavy-haired man with a soft voice,a bit of a paunch,a ready grin,and sitting in his shirtsleeved listening to his friend Sam,and then to Elvis's record,he said yes,he liked it too,and he'd sure give it a spin".

"The night Dewey played the record,Elvis tuned the family radio to WHBQ and ran to his favourite escape,the Suzore No.2 theatre. His parents said later he was so nervous,or shy,to be where he might hear his own record. Elvis probably didn't remember which film he was watching that night,because his parents walked the ailes to find him before the movie was over. Dewey had played the record,the listners had began to call in their enthusiastic reaction. Dewey played it again and again,an now he wanted to interview Elvis on the air".

Not long before he died,Dewey told what happened during that interview.

"Elvis arrived out of breath and Dewey said,"Sit down,I'm gone interview you." And according to Dewey,Elvis said, "Mr.Phillips,I don't know nothing about being interviewed."

"Just don't say nothing dirty,'Dewey said back. "He sat down and I said I'd let him know when we were ready to start,' Dewey recalled. "I had a couple of records cued up,and while they played,we talked. I asked him where he went to school and he said Humes" etc etc Source: "Elvis The Biography" by Jerry Hopkins p.47 & p.48--Jaye9 (talk) 02:28, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm quite happy to lose the "Elton Preston" anecdote; there's already another reference to him having a funny name. I'll remove the Carr & Farren quote. Rikstar (talk) 10:35, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I've done so, and I've also rewritten this bit using Hopkins as the main source. Rikstar (talk) 11:28, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Looking at this next one reminds me of how difficult it all is when researching on Presley. On the Main Page Titled:"First recording and performances" were it says. "That's All Right" was aired on July 8,1954,by DJ Dewey Phillips".[61]b Source:Carr and Farren,p6

I checked the date out and got two different ones:

10 July 1954: Dewey Phillips plays That's All Right,Mama on WHBQ radio,Memphis Tennessee. Source:www.elvis.com/topic/deweyphillips

Here's what Elaine Dundy had to say: "On Monday night of 5th July,while fooling aroung during a break in the session,Sam's search for his elusive sound finally came to fruition with Elvis singing "That's All Right{Mama)."

"Just two days after,on Wednesday,Sam's old friend and ex-partner Dewey Phillips played "That's All Right{Mama}'on his popular evening WHBQ radio program. Source: "Elvis and Gladys" by Elaine Dundy p.89

I'm no Elvis expert,but I'd go with Elaine Dundy because of her endepth study on Presley alone.--Jaye9 (talk) 14:17, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

So that's July 7? Fine with me. I did check, and July 7 was a Wednesday. I'll change this if no one disagrees. Rikstar (talk) 15:15, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I have updated the sandbox version to included the existing footnotes. Some of these (in red) need reformatting, or removing. The Notes may need amending too. The sandbox article is 100 kilobytes long, the current B-rated article is 142 kilobytes, and contains fewer images. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 20:51, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Made some more changes, generally to shorten it; notable ones are described in history. I'm trying to cut anything, but if it is significant, it can probably go in an existing linked sub article. I know people are reading this, and I am conscious that I don't want to create re-reading work for you all.

I also am not sure where we stand in using this version, even if current editors feel it forms a better article. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 00:34, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

"I asked him where he went to school and he said Humes" etc etc Source: "Elvis The Biography" by Jerry Hopkins p.47 & p.48" So, did he also say that he asked this question so that people would know Elvis wasn't black? Steve Pastor (talk) 19:43, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Steve, see my response to your question above on the Usertalk:Rikstar/Sandbox re:sandbox version,hope this will help you with your question.--Jaye9 (talk) 14:14, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

According to Guralnick (1994), page 373, the first of the two concerts he performed at the 1956 Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show was policed by 40 police and highway patrolmen. 50, not 100, National Guardsmen were added for the evening show. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 12:07, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Elvis art - portrait likeness sculpture, bust, figure of elvis

Welcome to: http://www.elvis-art.spb.ru/Main.html You must see this!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by ElvisSculptureART (talk • contribs) 15:59, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Very nice, in that kitchyElvis sort of way, but it doesn't have a whole load to do with how to improve the Presley main article. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 16:16, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Racism

Should there not be some mention of Elvis's documented racism somewhere in this article?  SmokeyTheCat  •TALK• 08:21, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Have you read the article, notably the fifth paragraph of Controversy and Cultural Impact? Do you have any references to the "documented" racism of Elvis you refer to? Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 20:44, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of Controversy and Cultural Impact, which I just reviewed... it is significant, I think, that by 1960, Sinatra appeared with Elvis in the Welcome Home special, and should perhaps be added to show how Elvis became accepted over time (and only 4 years at that!). Also, seems to me, and I've brought this up before, whatever black/white confusion there was initially, it didn't keep a number of records from selling well in the South, or Elvis generating large, enthusiastic crowds. ie that is clearly an overstatement of any influence there was. Again, I've brought this up before, don't think it's a big thing, but DO think it would make things more objective to make those changes.Steve Pastor (talk) 21:22, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

In the hundred or so books I've read on Elvis, not once did I ever here of Elvis being racist in anyway. The definition of racism is the oppression of someone because of race that is manifested in a physical manner such as, violence, suppression of job and housing availability etc. Elvis is documented in many instances to be just the opposite. And just to clarify, using the word "nigger" may show bigotry or prejudice but it is in no way by definition "racist". If anyone has documented instances of Elvis being "racist", please post it here. Mfbinc (talk) 02:09, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

The above comment has not been made by me,I think someone has forgotten to sign in perhaps. I really don't know how to respond to this,if only to say it's a very touchy subject indeed. Not so much involving Presley,I have my views on that,but the subject itself,if feels like a no win situation indeed.

I do believe however,it is fairly covered in the article as it stands.

If anyone cares to,type in: was elvis a racist? by Lee Dawson,then click on Elvis Presley was no racist. It pretty well sums how I feel about it. Interestingly,you'll notice a really nice photo of Myrna Smith & Elvis Presley and ask yourself,does that look like someone who's racist? If so,he's a better actor then I ever thought he was.--Jaye9 (talk) 03:21, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

We already had this discussion. For relevant quotes, see, for instance Talk:Elvis Presley/archive11. Onefortyone (talk) 19:39, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Here's some REALLY relevant quotes: "Elvis was an integrator. Elvis was a blessing." - Little Richard. Or "That's my idol, Elvis Presley" - Eddie Murphy. Or "I wasn't just a fan [of Elvis], I was his brother. I love him and hope to see him in heaven. There'll never be another like that soul brother." James Brown. Does that sound like a racist? I don't think so. Bushcutter (talk) 06:25, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

New video about Elvis

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4101376482992264027

I have put the postcard in this video for sale on Ebay. I think this video by Al Robinson has historic value to Elvis fans. Bobby Walker 64.149.19.105 (talk) 19:20, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Interests

It would be real interesting to have a section that describes Elvis's interests and hobbies. We all know that Elvis loved cars and had an interest in comic books. As for sports, Elvis loved football and boxing. Elvis was, in fact, friends with Muhammad Ali. Ali gave Elvis a pair of signed boxing gloves and Elvis gave Ali a boxing robe to walk to the ring with (not sure if he ever wore it though). Here is an example of something that could go in the interest section:

Elvis was a huge football fan and it was his favorite sport. According to childhood friend Jerry Schilling, Elvis would play pickup football games every Sunday at Guthrie Park located in North Memphis, Tennessee during the mid-to-late 1950s until he got too famous to play without attracting a large crowd. Elvis is even said to have brought Natalie Wood to the games on the back of his motorcycle so she could watch. Elvis was a fan of the Cleveland Browns mainly because his favorite player was Browns' Hall of Fame running back Jim Brown. Schilling said Elvis would imitate Jim Brown's walk back to the huddle. Elvis played these pickup football games with the likes of Ricky Nelson, Pat Boone, Johnny Rivers, and Red West. Nelson some Sundays would actually recruit friends from the football teams of the Los Angeles Rams, UCLA Bruins, and USC Trojans to play on his team against Elvis. As for what position Elvis played, Schilling described Elvis as being "more of a quarterback."

Here is my citation:

Schilling, Jerry. Interview. The George Klein Show. Sirius XM Radio. Elvis Radio, Memphis. 30 Jan. 2009. --Akhosrof (talk) 17:14, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Ali did wear the robe that Elvis gave to him, but only once. He lost that fight and saw the robe as a bad omen. I'm not sure if a section about his interests would be right for the article, perhaps it would feel too trivial? ElvisFan1981 (talk) 18:27, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree, it does feel trivial. However, so does Elvis's meeting with the Beatles. That seems a little out of place with the rest of the article as well. These things are all trivial, but interesting nonetheless. I guess the point is, when I come to Wikipedia, I want to have the option of learning as much as possible about a certain topic. Maybe this article is not the best place for Elvis's interests, but it probably should have some place on this site. I do understand though that this is a very low priority in relation to the rest of the work that needs to be done on the article. --Akhosrof (talk) 04:24, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the Beatles bit, like his interests, favorite foods, sexual conquestss, detail about his parents, etc., etc., are of interest, but it is also trivial or less relevant than other information about Presley. I have amended the article accordingly here [3]. There is a good case for including these less serious/relevant aspects of Presley's life in wikipedia, but I think they should be included in existing - or newly created - related articles. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 08:56, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Article's ending

Two quotes were chosen to sum up Presley's life to provide a fitting end to the article, namely:

Paul F. Campos has written: "The Elvis cult touches on so many crucial nerves of American popular culture: the ascent of a workingclass boy from the most obscure backwater to international fame and fortune; the white man with the soul of black music in his voice; the performer whose music tied together the main strands of American folk music – country, rhythm and blues, and gospel; and, perhaps most compellingly for a weight-obsessed nation, the sexiest man in America's gradual transformation into a fat, sweating parody of his former self, straining the bounds of a jewel-encrusted bodysuit on a Las Vegas stage. The images of fat Elvis and thin Elvis live together in the popular imagination." The singer continues to be imitated—and parodied—outside the main music industry and Presley songs remain very popular on the karaoke circuit. People from a diversity of cultures and backgrounds work as Elvis impersonators ("the raw 1950s Elvis and the kitschy 1970s Elvis are the favorites.")

In 2002, it was observed:

For those too young to have experienced Elvis Presley in his prime, today’s celebration of the 25th anniversary of his death must seem peculiar. All the talentless impersonators and appalling black velvet paintings on display can make him seem little more than a perverse and distant memory. But before Elvis was camp, he was its opposite: a genuine cultural force... Elvis’s breakthroughs are underappreciated because in this rock-and-roll age, his hard-rocking music and sultry style have triumphed so completely.

— The New York Times

The following has now been added:

Also in the same year, rapper Eminem mentioned his name on his song Without Me from The Eminem Show album and the lyrics goes Though I'm not the first king of controversy/I am the worst thing since Elvis Presley/To do Black music so selfishly.

This may warrant a mention, but it does not end the article well, and begs the question: why this song lyric quote? Why not mention that Kirsty McColl wrote there's a guy works down the chip shop swears he's Elvis? Or that Marc Cohn saw the ghost of Elvis on Union Avenue? If Eminem's quote is just another 'reminder' (yawn) that "Elvis stole Black music", this is already covered in the article. I think it should be deleted or moved elsewhere. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 09:18, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Just an observation

I've been racking my brains as to why I think the Presley article remains B class. As I ask myself this question,is it just the length,or are there other issues going on here?

I believe the Elvis sandbox version is heading in a positive direction,as most people seem to be happy with this version as well.

Rikstar has mentioned that he has looked at the Judy Garland article,of which I have since had a look at,as well as the John Lennon article. Judy Garland being a FA article and John Lennon is a GA article.

My interest in these two article was one,to compere them with the Presley article,to see what may be wrong with the Presley article and two ,the fact that my uncle had toured with the Beatles during their Australian and New Zealand Tour back in 1964,as well as Judy Garland. I'm pointing this out,only to say that he never spoke ill of these people,both during and after his association with them. Quite frankly,he never spoke much about them at all.

Getting back to the Presley article,there is an editor who is not happy with the sandbox version,as it omits most of the criticism and the Relationships on Presley.

I for one believe in constructive criticism. Both the Lennon and Garland articles have achieved this quite well. With a better understanding of these two artists. However,I don't feel the same way with the Presley article. When I say some of the criticism are just plain BITCHY.

Next one Relationships. I do like the way the Lennon Relationships is set out,concertrating only on the women who were important to the singer,not one month flings etc as presented in the Presley article.

Joe Espositoe mentions along with other Presley associates,that Presley had many affairs and one night stands,as has been said in books written on Lennon. Do we really need to go on about it,the Lennon article doesn't.

However Espositoe and Presley associates do agree when they say,there were only a few - Anita Wood,Priscilla,Ann Margaret,Linda Thompson,Sheila Ryan and Barbara Leigh - really meant anything to him.

Perhaps,if we do have a relationship section,that we mention these people,much more appropriate for a general encyclopedia type article. Lets leave the Elvis the the nasty with Cybill Shepherd type stories,to the likes of Entertainment Tonight type shows,could we.--Jaye9 (talk) 05:46, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

The majority of us who have been kicking around this subject (sometimes only fitfully) agree with you. And we have been agreeing for how long now? couple of years? Steve Pastor (talk) 20:03, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

scientology

With the Presleys being a notable Scientology family, i find it interesting that there is no mention of this in the article. If Elvis was a Scientologist then it should be noted, if not then it should at least be mentioned that the family joined the cult^H^H^H^H religion after his death.

You can't mention something his family did AFTER he died? It's got nothing to do with him. Bytebear (talk) 02:56, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Say what!? Elvis never had anything to do with Scientology. He was a born again, believing, sincere Christian. He never changed, all through his life. Elvis quoted the Bible as he worked, all through the Vegas years. Even when he was despairing in the latter part of his life, he was still calling out to Jesus for help. I don't think he'd be pleased that his daughter is busy giving her inheritance to Scientology! 154.20.131.164 (talk) 06:02, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Elvis wasn't a Scientologist. It's true that he was approached by them, but he didn't take any interest in their "religion" at all because he was aware that they were only after his name and money. There's a quote from one of the Memphis Mafia that says exactly that, for now I can't recall where I read it or heard it but it's out there somewhere. He wasn't a stupid man, and I believe he'd be very upset that Lisa Marie went on to choose it as her religion of choice. As said above, you can't link it to Elvis just because a member of his family chose it after his death. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 12:51, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Here's your quote: "Lamar Fike, who was part of Elvis' Memphis mafia, says: "He stayed away from Scientology like it was a cobra. He'd s*** a brick if he knew how far Lisa's gotten into it." The Scientologists once tried to recruit Elvis, Fike says. He recalls that Elvis fumed: "The hell with those people. There's no way I'll ever get involved with that s.o.b. group. All they want is my money." (http://lermanet.com/cos/lisamarie.html) Bushcutter (talk) 07:49, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Bushcutter, that's the quote I was thinking about. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 14:52, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Split?

This article is very, very big, so I think splitting may be in order. Comments? - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 05:35, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Elvis Presley

Greatest rock singer ever —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.219.113.130 (talk) 15:58, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

No one can say who was the greatest, it's opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.16.111.111 (talk) 16:15, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Native abundance

The article claims that Presley was part Cherokee. This is very probable because many millions of people in the U.S. declare that they are part Cherokee. As a matter of fact, the maternity ward on the Cherokee reservation was a very busy place and experienced more traffic than Times Square in New York. The other tribes across the country were not nearly as fertile. Has it ever been ascertained whether it was Cherokee men or Cherokee women who were more responsible for the population explosion in and around the reservation?Lestrade (talk) 16:58, 11 March 2009 (UTC)Lestrade

Troll baiting

One of the contributors to this article and related talk page has been recently exposed as a sockpuppet and troll. All entries by Bu**cutter are actually from a banned editor. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 14:40, 5 April 2009 (UTC).

Origin?

I have a concern about the box on the right (sorry, I don't know what it's called. Quick facts?) that says his origin is Memphis, TN. He was born in Tupelo, as the main body of the article states. I would have liked to edit it, but I cannot yet. Can someone do that? Unless I'm not understanding the meaning of the word "origin". Tres mal13 (talk) 18:00, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree; I will change it. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 06:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Separate article about his parents

There is ia wealth of well-sourced material about his parents; I have started a new article about them so the main Presley article can concentrate on his biography and not get bogged down in detail about his parents. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 06:08, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

lol. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.231.149.33 (talk) 10:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion, the material concerning Elvis's parents should not be separated from the main article, as Gladys and Vernon are not personalities notable on their own, other than being the parents of Presley. Furthermore, in most other biographies, such important information is part of the main article. For instance, there are no separate articles on Paul McCartney's parents, James McCartney and his wife, Mary (née Mahon), or Bob Dylan’s parents, Abram Zimmerman and Beatrice "Beatty" Stone. Onefortyone (talk) 03:15, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

They are not noteworthy. No article should be made. Bytebear (talk) 03:30, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, lol! Delete, do it quick, (I'm serious). Don't know what I was thinking... Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 20:33, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Done. Bytebear (talk) 02:33, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

PUFF THE MAGIC DRAGON

Elvis Presly was the first public singer and the Limeliters to sing this song. It was first songwriten by Michael Holand Shepard in 1963 and no sooner as reported. The songwriter was almost thirteen years old. Because of the playgerism by Peter, Paul and Mary and others and the songwriter still not recieved in moneys and fame, complications exist on its official release. Interferance by Disney and Warner Brothers whom have no claim to rights and copywrights. Why not push for an official release and stop the violance. We can learn from John Lennons assination. Show the love. Michael Holand Shepard 501 W Broadway Ste A San Diego, Ca 92101 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael shepard (talk • contribs) 21:12, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Please add a space after "ducktail". -- 217.230.235.23 (talk) 15:53, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

This page violates wiki!

This page violates wiki! - this is all I see on screen when I display the Elvis article. What's up with that? Please fix!!! --78.99.152.93 (talk) 22:56, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

RE: This page violates wiki!

"Elvis Presley From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This page violates wiki!"

Why is it that the above is the only writing that i see when viewing the main article? Please fix it as that is the only words that i can see... However, when i click on "View Source", i see the original article in plain text. can someone please fix that? According to the History of this page, it was edited yesterday, on the 8th of May by the username 'Highyack07' and he/she/it seems to have edited it to just "Thispage violates wiki!" This was originally noted by ClueBotw practically straight after it was vandalised. Please fix it!!! 122.104.183.172 (talk) 03:54, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Memphis Mafia

i have added a comment by Marty Lacker to add some balance, as the influence of the MM is generally negative in the article. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 09:40, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Article chron structure

I have one comment about this article. I am confused by the way it moves in and out of chronological order so that it can be organized by topic. I understand that this way of organizing can be efficient and informative, but I feel like the article keeps taking two steps forward and one step back (for example, when it discusses his failing health and the Mafia's influence on him in the mid 70s immediately before the headline "1968 comeback.") 67.171.216.243 (talk) 17:45, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I totally agree. An alternative, more chronologically structured version can be viewed here [4]. I started it 6 months ago. It was initially discussed above [5], and received very favorable reviews from most people See [6]. It continues to receive support. Your comments would be welcome. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 18:04, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it is a little out of order in places. I'm pleased to say that I tried to tidy up a lot of the 70's content into some kind of chronological order, a lot of which has been kept by Rikstar in his article which I appreciate very much. After having a look at it again, the first in some time, I must congratulate you Rikstar on how great your version is looking. Are there any future plans to replace the current one with it? I would imagine a lot of discussion amongst different editors would perhaps be necessary before such a massive upheaval was finalised, but assuming most people are happy with the reworked version then I see no reason why it should be delayed much further than the end of 2009, and if possible it may be done a lot sooner. :) Excellent work. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 19:21, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks ElvisFan. I'm not sure how to go about making this version the main one. There could be more details added to my version, but at least the structure is sorted. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 21:45, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I do not think that Rikstar’s version of the article is better than the current one, as several interesting and critical topics have been omitted from the biographical article and some unimportant things added. Furthermore, only the usual Elvis fans seem to prefer Rikstar’s version. Most others seem to be happy with the version as it stands, as there were only a few minor changes since last year. However, some sections may be rewritten. For instance, the “Elvis met the Beatles” section is too long and may get a separate article. And what about this unnecessary insignia stuff included by military fans:

3^rd Armored Division insignia

Rank and Insignia	Date of Rank
Private	Drafted 24 March 1958
Private First-Class	27 November 1958
Specialist 4	1 June 1959
Sergeant	20 January 1960

Let us, therefore, compare the first section of Rikstar’s current version with the relatively short one I wrote last year:

Rikstar’s version:

Early years: Tupelo

Elvis Presley was one of twins born to Vernon Elvis Presley (April 10, 1916–June 26, 1979) and Gladys Love Smith (April 25, 1912 – August 14, 1958). Elvis' brother, Jesse Garon, was stillborn.

The Presley family attended the Assembly of God church which exposed the young Elvis to his earliest musical influences: "Since I was two years old, all I knew was gospel music. That music became such a part of my life it was as natural as dancing. A way to escape from the problems. And my way of release."

On October 3, 1945, at age ten, he made his first public performance in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show at the suggestion of his teacher, Mrs. Grimes. The young Presley had to stand on a chair to reach the microphone and sang Red Foley's "Old Shep." He came fifth, winning $5 and a free ticket to all the Fair rides.

In 1946, for his eleventh birthday, Presley received his first guitar. Vernon's brother, Vester, gave Elvis basic guitar lessons.

The young Presley frequently listened to local radio; his first musical hero was family friend Mississippi Slim, a hillbilly singer with a radio show on Tupelo’s WELO. Presley performed occasionally on Slim’s Saturday morning show, Singin’ and Pickin’ Hillbilly. "He was crazy about music... That’s all he talked about," recalls his sixth grade friend, James Ausborn, Slim’s younger brother. Before he was a teenager, music was already Presley’s "consuming passion". J. R. Snow, son of 1940s country superstar Hank Snow, recalls that even as a young man Presley knew all of Hank Snow’s songs, "even the most obscure". Presley himself said he also loved records by Sister Rosetta Thorpe, Roy Acuff, Ernest Tubbs, Ted Daffan, Jimmie Rodgers, Jimmy Davis and Bob Wills.

Onefortyone’s version (already covering material dealt with in Rikstar's second section):

Presley's father, Vernon (April 10, 1916–June 26, 1979) was a malingerer, averse to work and responsibility. He had several low-paying jobs, including sharecropper and truck driver. His mother, Gladys Love Smith (April 25, 1912–August 14, 1958), was "voluble, lively, full of spunk," and had alcohol problems. She worked as a sewing machine operator. They met in Tupelo, Mississippi, and were married in Pontotoc County on June 17,1933.

Presley was born in East Tupelo, the second of identical twins (his brother was stillborn). As an only child he was "unusually close to his mother." The family lived in a two room house just above the poverty line.Template:Fn In 1938, Vernon Presley was jailed for a check forgery. The absence of his father "had a profound effect upon Elvis' emotional development".

At age ten, Presley won fifth prize in a singing contest at the Mississippi-Alabama Fair and Dairy Show for his rendition of Red Foley's "Old Shep".

In 1946, Presley got his first guitar. In November 1948, the family moved to Memphis, Tennessee, allegedly because Vernon had to escape the law for transporting bootleg liquor. At school, Presley was bullied for being different, a stutterer and "a mama's boy." At L. C. Humes High School, he was viewed as "a sad, shy, not especially attractive boy"; some students made fun of him for playing "trashy" hillbilly music.

In 1949, the family lived at a public housing development in one of Memphis' poorer sections. Presley practiced playing guitar in a five-piece band with other tenants. He occasionally worked evenings to boost the family income, and began to grow his sideburns and dress in the wild, flashy clothes of Lansky Brothers on Beale Street. He stood out, especially in the conservative Deep South of the 1950s, and he was mocked for it. Despite any unpopularity, Presley won as a contestant in his school's 1952 "Annual Minstrel Show" singing "Cold Cold Icy Fingers" and "Till I Waltz Again With You".

After graduation, Presley was still rather shy and “more comfortable just sitting there with a guitar than trying to talk to you." His third job was driving a truck for the Crown Electric Company. Like his fellow drivers, he began wearing his hair longer with a "ducktail".

Here is a comparison of the content of the first paragraphs:

• Rikstar: no specific information about Elvis’s parents / Onefortyone: some details concerning his parents
• Rikstar: nothing about the influence of his mother / Onefortyone: their unusually close relationship is mentioned
• Rikstar: It is said that Elvis was deeply influenced by gospel music which he also used to escape problems (which problems?) / Onefortyone: some background information about the poverty of his family and the absence of his father (a short note on gospel music may be added)
• Rikstar: too much information about a relatively unimportant singing contest where Elvis came fifth, winning a free ticket to the Fair rides / Onefortyone: a shorter, more encyclopedic remark upon the same performance
• Rikstar: Elvis receiving his first guitar and guitar lessons from his uncle / first guitar plus background information about the family’s movement to Memphis and Elvis being bullied at school
• Rikstar: young Elvis frequently listening to Mississippi Slim’s radio show, Elvis’s craze about music plus information concerning his favorite singers and records / Onefortyone: family living in one of Memphis's poorer sections, Elvis’s early steps in music (here indeed Mississippi Slim’s influence etc. could be added), his dress habits, shyness and job
• Rikstar’s next section, entitled “Move to Memphis”, mentions the poverty of the Presley family, deals with Elvis’s dress habits and job (remember that Onefortyone has it much shorter in the last paragraph of the preceding section) but is again on his favorite music, his predilection for gospel songs etc. and you may get the impression that, from the beginning, everyone liked his music, which was not the case.

Query: which sections are more encyclopedic in a biographical article? By the way, a strict chronological order would be tedious and would not allow laying more stress on more important points of the singer’s life and the people around him. Onefortyone (talk) 23:55, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Some very good points, Onefortyone. Personally I have never had a problem with the current article, but other editors have made very public their dislike of the length, and the size of the article. Some editors have even suggested the reason it was downgraded is because it was far too large and mentioned far too much information that wasn't necessary. Rikstar's version has attempted to keep as much of the information from the current version as possible, whilst also attempting to remove any unnecessary parts. Obviously each individual editor is going to have problems with parts either being included or removed dependant on their own personal opinions, after all you can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time but never all of the people all of the time. However, as a seriously cut back version I think that Rikstar's article is a good place to start again. From there information can be re-added as seen fit, or removed. This is why I said above that a lot of discussion is needed between editors before anything definite is done, and this is the place for that to happen before things can really move on. :) ElvisFan1981 (talk) 08:14, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

The length and size is not the problem of a good or featured article. You should compare the current size of the Elvis page (144 kb, because of the long “Elvis met the Beatles” section added some months ago) with Wikipedia pages on other important figures in popular music, for instance, the good article on Paul McCartney (144 kb), or the featured articles on Bob Dylan (141 kb) and Michael Jackson (117 kb). Elvis is a cultural phenomenon. He was not only a Rock’n’Roll singer, but also a B-movie actor, a sex symbol, a victim of drug abuse, head of the so-called Memphis Mafia, etc. etc. Though his star is sinking, he is still part of a world-wide Elvis industry, including impersonators and the cult practiced for commercial reasons at Graceland. All of these different facets of the singer’s life, career and "afterlive" must somehow be part of a long Wikipedia article. Therefore, in my opinion, it is not necessary to reduce the article’s length. Rikstar's version has omitted some of the more critical information concerning Elvis's private life and added other things stressing the singer's development as a megastar. Some of this additional material is fine and can be merged in the current article. Onefortyone (talk) 23:19, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

The length and size of this particular article was a problem for a few people; [7]. I completely agree that the article should include the negative with the positive. The article was de-listed because its length was seen as a problem, and also the amount of information that some people felt was not necessary. Negative and positive must both be included, but not just for the sake of it, it has to add some proper value to the article without going over the top with information. As I said above I think Rikstar's version is more of a back to basics version that can be updated and re-added to over time. Rik has only removed things from the article because of the fears it was too long and included too much unnecessary information, not because there was some kind of an agenda to it. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 05:41, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Onefortyone,I have read the above comments and there are a couple of things that make me question whether there is any point of me remaining with this article. Firstly,my being an ELVIS FAN FOR ONE. My question to you is can you see you're way to working in with an Elvis Fan or not. Are you saying that someone who is a fan cannot possibly handle any negative comments about the star,you tell me, but that's the message I'm getting. Please allow me to say something here, I have spent two years with this article and in that time have spent many hours cross checking sources,reading what authors have said about other authors,checking their reputations and the people they interview,not an easy task I might add,but I have enjoyed doing so,because simply I want to know more about this entertainer,only reading positive things isn't going to achieve that,I was fully aware or accepting that he had his flaws fifteen years ago and in an odd way I liked him even more for it and there are certain things I don't relate with the man,but that's not for me to judge.

But the bottom line for me is to try and acheive an article that people can ralate to. I have in the past helped student from grade 4 to University students with their projects on Presley,that doesn't make me an expert,but it does make we aware of how difficult it is in writting an article of this nature,and I'm assuming that we have all different ages and we have to try and write an article that will please all types of age groups and interests in the man,not just are own.

Another thing you said 141,"Rikstar: too much information about a relatively unimportant singing contest where Elvis came fifth winning a free ticket to the fair rides / Onefortyone a shorter,more encyclopedic remark upon the same performance."

Onefortyone,when I am reading about Elvis or watching films and I check the article and it doesn't sound write,I will recheck it again and again,I thought that's what were here for,to try and get the article as accurate as possible and with the help of two other editors I thought we achieved that,as the article originally stated that he come second, he did not,if you find this correction to the article unimportant then fine,I don't as it was a myth,myths are myths,there not the truth.

My interest in Elvis are pretty varied 141,it seems your interest seem to be centred on his relationships and anything negative you can find,that's fine,all I ask is that you use a more constructive reliable sources then you have in the past and I believe still exists in this article and I would be more than happy to discuss this with you in the near future. Thank you for you time.--Jaye9 (talk) 11:54, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

141 writes:

"Most others seem to be happy with the version as it stands, as there were only a few minor changes since last year."

Really? Everyone is so happy with an article and they just don't want to nominate it? Only a few minor changes? Nothing to do with the article being locked, or the fact that existing editors had given up all hope of having their collective efforts reflected in an improved (by wiki standards) article?? P-lease...

I have already shown the Beatles bit does not have to be part of this article - see my sandbox version? The military insignia is not important; I used it in the sandbox version only because it was one of the few illustration that copied over. It is far less relevant than discussing edits to the text of this article. As this thread is now split, I am going to add comments at the top of this page to follow this, as they should be.

I have also stated:

"Everyone please note: this [sandbox version [8]] is not what I consider a finished piece; no version of it will please everyone; it has been a sincere attempt to cut bloat and editors should refrain from adding, or re-adding, extraneous stuff".

I am not bothered about kilobytes, but being labelled an "ELVISFAN" bores me to tears. What text constitutes all those kilobytes does bother me - not article length per se. Shouldn't the absorption of the Beatles section, as is clear in the sandbox version, be acknowledged by critics as a positive attribute of the sandbox version? The fact that 141 did not do this, and instead chose to criticize the inclusion of a few army badges, shows questionable editing/discussion motives that have little to do with collectively working with other editors in the spirit of wikipedia.

The sandbox version was a fresh starting point for an article bedevilled by a long history of edit warring, and a peculiar apparent reluctance in some parties to see this article cleaned up/edited to achieve a better wiki status. There's no Beatles section, no "pashas", no "ice cream", no section on Controversy, Parker and the Mafia -all sub sections absorbed into a readable text. AND there are already subarticles on these. Let's face it; no one is rushing to nominate the main article as it stands, and it has stood like that for ages. And few are rushing to suggest that previous talk page discussion - about Presley's oh so degenerate parents, Presley being gay, the salacious details of his sex life, etc. - has or will lead to edits that improve this article.

I agree that his parents and their influence should be included, And something about the "Presley Industry" is warranted in the legacy. That's what I think now, just as I and others thought at one time that a Beatles meeting section was warranted. I may change my mind, look at things afresh, think that 'compromise' has a real practical function. Others should try this approach. But whatever, let's keep things balanced and in proportion for a singer's biography. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 17:58, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Rikstar wrote,

"Shouldn't the absorption of the Beatles section, as is clear in the sandbox version, be acknowledged by critics as a positive attribute of the sandbox version? The fact that 141 did not do this, and instead chose to criticize the inclusion of a few army badges, shows questionable editing/discussion motives that have little to do with collectively working with other editors in the spirit of wikipedia."

Concerning the Beatles section, your sandbox version is indeed the better one. In other cases IMHO it is not, as I have shown above. I didn't remove the Beatles section from the current article because one or two other editors were of the opinion that it is important. I usually do not delete what others have added. (However, I reinclude important passages that other users have removed from the article.) As for the false claim that I have "questionable editing/discussion motives that have little to do with collectively working with other editors in the spirit of wikipedia," there is already a detailed comparison of the first section of your sandbox version with the relatively short one I wrote last year (see above). Why do you not discuss these two versions in order to create a better one? The same procedure may be useful in order to improve the text of all other paragraphs of the article. Onefortyone (talk) 03:15, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I have been looking at new sources regarding his parents which could significantly change the content of early years, so a discussion of current content would be a waste of my time right now. A discussion of each further section was suggested previously. The result was (as i wrote above) "that existing editors had given up all hope of having their collective efforts reflected in an improved article" after discussion of the early years section so they moved on from this idea, worn out by the prospect of tackling further sections where others agreed even more radical editing was needed. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 08:15, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

You said, "a discussion of current content would be a waste of my time." This statement speaks volumes and clearly shows your "questionable editing/discussion motives that have little to do with collectively working with other editors" (your words). Onefortyone (talk) 16:12, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with what Rikstar has written about more or less giving up on trying to make the article better. You can parse his statements and use the words any way you like. It doesn't change the basic fact that many of us haven't been able to take it for a long time, and left the building a long time ago. (although we do peak in once and a while) Steve Pastor (talk) 17:22, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

In reply to 141: Let me explain this point again. I would not go through a long list of points laboriously discussing changes to and fro to one part of current content, when I am seeking new content to add that would significantly change the content again. Others might be happy to discuss that content and I wish they would in a way - it would be interesting to see how someone else gets on with it. Now where are they all?? Anyway, for me, at this time, it would be a pointless efffort, ergo it would be a waste of my time. I may return to to the points you refer to. Who knows? I'm not sure what this says about my motives, but it is wholly consistent with wanting to improve the article.

There are a few things I am considering discussing with you 141, like: "Some of this additional material is fine and can be merged in the current article." Begs the question: Which bits? I'm obviously interested and I am not averse to discussing issues and content with anyone if in my opinion it is worthwhile use of my time. I feel I've wasted a zillion hours on Elvis already.

Steve, good to know you've peaked in. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 17:37, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Length of Article Suggestions

After reading the article I can see why it is so long. All information that is not "fact" can be deleted. For instance, in the Early Life section one comment is "The family lived just above the poverty line and attended an Assembly of God church". One, who knows what the poverty line was in the 30's & 40's and for that matter what was the Presley's income in relation to that. It is enough to say they were "poor". Also, movie, songs, and sales information can be found on Elvis' music and film discographies. Also, there are many references of things that may have happened or "Elvis' friend remembers it this way". That is conjecture and should not be entered as factual, whether good or bad. For instance, Elvis was offered the part in "Midnight Cowboy". No one knows if he was officially offered the part and if he was, he did not accept it. If we listed what Elvis could have, would have, or should have done, then Wikipedia would not be able to contain it. I have studied Elvis Presley for over twenty years both as a fan and as a critic. If you allow me, I can give a concise biography that would please fans and critics alike without the sensational gossip or tabloid fodder Elvis is subjected to. I will base my information on Peter Guralnick and Ernst Jorgensen books. Of everything I've read about Elvis, they provide the most non-partisan look at his life and career. Their books are recent and surpass the information available to Jerry Hopkins or Albert Goldman.--JCL3CLL (talk) 20:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Most information in the article is already based on relevant and up-to-date publications such as Peter Guralnick, Last Train to Memphis: The Rise of Elvis Presley and Careless Love. The Unmaking of Elvis Presley; Ernst Jorgensen, Elvis Presley: A life in music; Elaine Dundy, Elvis and Gladys: The Genesis of the King; Alanna Nash, Elvis Aron Presley: Revelations from the Memphis Mafia and The Colonel: The Extraordinary Story of Colonel Tom Parker and Elvis Presley; Jerry Hopkins, Elvis. The Biography; Greil Marcus, Dead Elvis: A Chronicle of a Cultural Obsession; Connie Kirchberg and Marc Hendricks, Elvis Presley, Richard Nixon, and the American Dream; Michael T. Bertrand, Race, Rock, and Elvis, etc. For instance, the fact that Elvis's "family lived just above the poverty line" is intensively discussed in chapter 1 of Guralnick's Last Train to Memphis and in all other Elvis biographies. Furthermore, stories told by the singer's friends are part of every Elvis biography. Onefortyone (talk) 00:11, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

You miss the point I was trying to make. If you want information regarding Elvis' lineage or whether his family was on the "poverty line" then by all means purchase the book and read it. However, we are trying to condense this article so that it gets to the point. The opinions on Elvis are relevant, just not in this article. It should be based on facts, not innuendo or opinion. For instance, notice this statement in the article:

^{Vernon has been described as "a malingerer, always averse to work and responsibility."[20] His wife was "voluble, lively, full of spunk" and had a fondness for drink.[21]}

Is this fact? Perhaps. Can we verify this? NO. Therefore, it should not be on this page!--12.234.250.75 (talk) 18:21, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

It is not necessary to condense the text. You should compare the current size of the Elvis page (148 kb, because of the long "Elvis met the Beatles" section added some months ago and because of an additional illustration included last week that is now a candidate for speedy deletion; see [9]) with Wikipedia pages on other important figures in popular music, for instance, the featured articles on Bob Dylan (142 kb) and Michael Jackson (130 kb). Elvis was not only a Rock’n’Roll singer, but also a B-movie actor, a sex symbol, a victim of drug abuse, head of the so-called Memphis Mafia, etc. etc., and he is still part of a world-wide Elvis industry, including impersonators and the Elvis cult now practiced for commercial reasons at Graceland. All of these different facets of the singer’s life, career and "afterlife" must somehow be part of a long Wikipedia article. However, if you would like to reduce the article’s length, you may condense the "Elvis met the Beatles" section, which is too long, and remove this unnecessary insignia stuff included by military fans:

3^rd Armored Division insignia

Rank and Insignia	Date of Rank
Private	Drafted 24 March 1958
Private First-Class	27 November 1958
Specialist 4	1 June 1959
Sergeant	20 January 1960

.

Other parts of the article are important, for instance, that Elvis liked Gospel music, that his father was a malingerer, averse to work and responsibility and had only low-paying jobs, and that his mother had alcohol problems. Most biographers would agree that brief statements about Vernon's character and Gladys's alcoholism are necessary, as they deeply affected young Elvis's life. Here are some sources:

• In her book on Elvis and Gladys (of which The Boston Globe said that it is "nothing less than the best Elvis book yet" and Kirkus Reviews said that it is "the most fine-grained Elvis bio ever"), Elaine Dundy writes about Elvis's mother: "She was drinking a lot. At the end she was drinking all the time. Vodka. Where'd she get it from? Vernon — he give it to her. Just to keep her quiet." (p.294)
• Kathleen Tracy, Elvis Presley: A Biography (2006) says, "While Vernon was serving his time in prison, Gladys found solace in Elvis and, increasingly, in drinking. Even though she drank in private, her bloodshot eyes and the lingering aroma of stale liquor gave her away. She also began missing work..." (p. 17).
• According to Jane Ellen Wayne's chapter on Elvis Presley in her book, The Leading Men of MGM (2006), "Gladys and Vernon were both heavy drinkers" (p.373) and "Gladys took Benzedrine and consumed vodka to excess to ease the pain of loneliness" (p.377)
• Elaine Dundy says about Elvis's father that he "didn't work very hard or very steadily. ... He had been known all his young life as a 'jellybean' – by definition weak, spineless, and work-shy." (p.10)
• Patrick Humphrey’s writes in his book on Elvis (p.117): "There is a widely held believe among psychologists that the disappearance of Vernon from Elvis’ life when the King was three (Vernon was jailed for passing bad cheques) had a profound effect upon Elvis' emotional development. At that age a child naturally goes through a separation anxiety from its mother, which fathers can often help with. Elvis only had Gladys. They slept in the same bed up until Elvis was a young teen."
• Elaine Dundy says about Elvis’s mother (p.71): "it was agony for her to leave her child even for a moment with anyone else, to let anyone else touch Elvis. Maternal love was not for Gladys a prettily sentimental attachment. Rather it was a passionate concentration which deepened into a painful intensity when her son was not there, directly in her sight. ... It was physical torment for her to be separated from him. Maternal devotion is constantly misrepresented as either grasping, clinging, stifling or pathetic. It is none of these things. Every mother of a very young child has the primordial conviction, deeper than reason, that as long as her child is within her eyesight she will be able to protect him from all harm. Generally the mother outgrows this as the child grows up but Gladys all her life remained anxious over each one of Elvis' separations from her."

Similar statements can be found in books by Peter Guralnick and most other Elvis biographers. As such important details are part of every Elvis biography, some information of this kind must also be included in the Wikipedia article, as, according to the Wikipedia guidelines, all information should be based on reliable secondary sources. Onefortyone (talk) 05:01, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

"I think that documentation can so often change your picture of the way things are. For example,with Elvis's father, Vernon, who is often pictured in the past as a kind fo lazy ne'er-do-well, claimed he had a back problem. When I got into the archives here at Graceland,I discovered documentation which showed that he always worked,he always paid his bills. He was the most conscientious of people. This may not make him a hero, but it is very, very different picture than the picture that people were painting of him." Source: August 16,2002 interview with Peter Gurlanick talking with CNN anchor Martin Savidge from Graceland about his books, "Careless Love: The Unmaking of Elvis Presley" and "Last Train to Memphis".--Jaye9 (talk) 05:31, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Excellent point Jaye9! You must be an ELVISFAN!! (tee hee hee). I have said above that stuff about his parents should be mentioned, and your discovery will helped to do what I want (and anyone should want) which is to keep things balanced when it should be. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 06:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

"When I got into the archives here at Graceland,I discovered documentation which showed that he always worked,he always paid his bills. He was the most conscientious of people. This may not make him a hero, but it is very, very different picture than the picture that people were painting of him." Sorry, what else would you expect from a documentation at Graceland? Anyone who expected anything other than a whitewash must be hopelessly naive. Guralnick should have known better. In this case the people who knew Vernon are certainly more reliable sources. Onefortyone (talk) 03:24, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Words fail me right now, if only to say one thing though, this has gone beyond any sort of common sense.--Jaye9 (talk) 04:51, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

141 wrote: "Sorry, what else would you expect from a documentation at Graceland? Anyone who expected anything other than a whitewash must be hopelessly naive. Guralnick should have known better. In this case the people who knew Vernon are certainly more reliable sources."

Don't be so down, Jaye9. This has to be one of the funniest things I've read in ages!!! Is it really serious? So Guralnick uses hundreds? of Graceland archive documents, many no doubt used as sources for his two books. Wouldn't they all be discredited simply because they came from the whitewash that is Graceland? And so too wouldn't the books be at least partially discredted? But they haven't been, and even 141 has so far shown only respect for Guralnick, except apparently now 141 has apparently developed some superior insight - greater than that of Guralnick himself - with regard to what he thinks is a reliable source/testimony regarding Vernon P. With what authority, other than the people's opinions he chooses to believe, can 141 suddenly decide that Gurlnick doesn't know what he is talking about and that he "must be hopelessly naive"? Breathtaking stuff...

Fortunately there appears to be information on Vernon this isn't just of the lazy, white trash variety - but I suppose that could get casually dismissed instead of being incorporated into the article, just like the vastly esteemed Guralnick has had his words derided at the whim of someone who has shown the air of a disgruntled cynic who changes his tune when it suits his motives. I think this is simply more evidence Of "questionable editing/discussion motives that have little to do with collectively working with other editors in the spirit of wikipedia." Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 09:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Any Elvis biographer may use the documents at Graceland, that's not the problem, but one has to be very careful with them. It all depends on the interpretation of such material. Query: why did Guralnick come to the false conclusion that Vernon always worked? It is a fact that Vernon was in prison for some time. This means that he didn't always work. And before he lived a more than prosperous life at, or near, Graceland he had only low-paying jobs. And if he had lost several of these jobs, he didn't have a job for a period of time, at least shortly after he had given up a job or had been fired. Do you really think that it is documented in full detail at Graceland that he always worked and always paid his bills, as Guralnick claims in the interview? Do you really think that unpaid bills from his earlier years as a jellybean and malingerer are all documented at Graceland? Then you must indeed be hopelessly naive. In younger years Vernon was even forced to fake checks in order to solve his financial difficulties. How Guralnick could now come to the conclusion that Vernon "was the most conscientious of people" is really a mystery to me, especially since he was of a very different opinion in his books on Elvis, which are based not only on the whitewashed documents at Graceland, but on commentaries by many of Vernon's contemporaries. One thing is clear: if there is no further publication by Guralnick, in which he provides detailed arguments supporting his recent claims, such claims cannot be used for a Wikipedia article. Onefortyone (talk) 15:55, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

When I got into the archives here at Graceland,I discovered documentation which showed that he always worked,he always paid his bills. Well, for instance, I seem to remember that he built the house that they lost when he was jailed. I have always agreed with those who argued that the gossip 2nd and 3rd hand stuff has no place in this article. Just like so and so, Elvis Expert's Opinion of what happened has no place when an objective account is available. Steve Pastor (talk) 17:18, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I can agree about not including 2nd and 3rd hand stuff and I took this as one of my cues - to cut a lot of such stuff out to create the sandbox version. On the other hand, trying to placate 141 in his preferred version, he seems to like gossipy, highly personal comments (yes, yes, I know, always from reliable souces of course). But this is the approach that's causing intractable problems. I really don't see how Guralnick's comment "has no place"; other 2nd, 3rd hand comments are or can be included. It's adding other information with it for balance that counts, and the reader can make up their own mind about what Guralnick said, or meant, and that pesky word "always" he dared to use (I think 141 may have pointed that out).

It is 141 who has been vociferous in the past about allowing any and all content, on the basis that sourced material - his contributions - should simply not be removed, regardless of how poorly they read AND regardless of how many others want them removed. But as we have seen, this inclusionist approach is what is screwing up this article, and in danger of making it way too long, because there is a depressing and long-standing lack of agreement. I've bent over backwards and had my guts churning because IMHO, one single editor is the only thing that prevents the Presley article from being whipped quickly into shape. I find myself now tempted to revert my efforts and to try and just stick to the facts so we don't have tit for tat expert 1 said this, writer 2 said that, etc., ad nauseum. My sanbox anyone? And then we wouldn't have to bother disecting Guralnick's sentences or anyone else's, like that pasha and ice cream balony. But hey, there's that voice in my head screaming: "What's the ****ing point of trying???????????? Very, very sad. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 18:43, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Aren't fans of this article watching out for poor edits?

A few well-intentioned edits have succeeded only in duplicating content recently eg. intro mentioning billion sales and A Star is Born is referred to in two different sections. (the first mention is the recent edit). I find it sad that no one has pointed this out or sorted it out, or flagged it up for discussion. I find it strange, given that this article is watched so closely and admired by some editors. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 02:21, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that there are too many minor editors adding small bits of information (sometimes even double content) or removing some passages. Just one example. Some days ago, a presumed Rock'n'Roll fan first moved these paragraphs to another section of the article and then totally removed the whole thing (see [10]). Among this material were several passages on "early musical influences" (including Gospel music) you wrote some time ago. Apparently this editor didn't like the simple fact that Elvis loved Gospel music. Therefore, I have reincluded the material. However, you can't always watch the entire article's content. Onefortyone (talk) 03:30, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your response 141 regarding this. It is a problem and I agree it is difficult to monitor everything. It is good you had the time and prior knowledge to reinclude edits after some major changes. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 07:45, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

And it looks like we have a duplicate section (early years) now. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 07:56, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorted. :) ElvisFan1981 (talk) 08:35, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you.Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 22:35, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Songwriter, Instrumentalist.

I've just reverted some good faith edits that said Elvis was a songwriter and instrumentalist. Discussion before has come to the conclusion that he can't really be classed as a songwriter, primarily because most of his credits were for publishing reasons only. Also because I can't think of one person who would actually mention the word "songwriter" when talking about him, I don't see how it is appropriate to the article. As I've said before, I know of only one song that he genuinely co-wrote, and I don't believe that is enough to qualify its inclusion. Elvis was a very talented arranger, and producer, but very rarely would he ever tamper with lyrics. Even when he did it was to change a word or remove a verse, never to rewrite a whole section.

I've also removed the term instrumentalist, simply because I personally don't class him as that either. Yes, he played guitar, piano and learnt to play a little bass, but generally, with the exception of the 1950's and a few recordings and live performances after that period, he didn't play enough on his own to fall into that category. I notice that on the John Lennon and Paul McCartney pages, neither of them are described as instrumentalists either, yet I would consider them so before I would Elvis.

If anyone feels that these edits are wrong and should be included, then I would appreciate if discussions included here before any changes were made again. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 12:40, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake. For years I thought it was common knowledge that Elvis and Vera Matson wrote "Love Me Tender", so I was in for quite a surprise the other minute when I had a look at Love Me Tender (song). But I think one thing on that page could use a bit of clarification. It says, "Elvis Presley received co-songwriting credit due to his Hill & Range publishing deal which demanded of songwriters that they concede 50 percent of the credit of their song if they wanted Presley to record it." But the reason for this deal seems unclear. If Elvis had set up an "I'll record your song, but only if I get half the royalties" arrangement, that would make some sense, but it wouldn't explain why he was credited so rarely (I can think of only three instances) as a songwriter. It might be good to clarify somewhere (probably in Love Me Tender (song), although perhaps a sentence or two in Elvis Presley could be helpful) just how the royalty/credit situation came about and just how long it lasted. In any case, your revert makes sense, and I see no reason to contest it. Cosmic Latte (talk) 13:24, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi Cosmic, thanks for your reply. The reasons that Elvis received song-writing credits was simply down to the fact that Col. Parker had seen it as a great way for Elvis (and in return himself) make some extra money without having to lift a finger. It was for financial reasons, and sadly Parker's greed led to Elvis not being able to record some great songs that he was either offered outright, or had shown an interest in. I don't know for sure, but I would imagine that the reasons Elvis' name appears on earlier recordings and not later ones is because they soon realised that his name didn't actually need to be on the recording for him to make money unless he did have some input. I'll re-read the article and see if it can be made any clearer for readers. Many thanks. :) ElvisFan1981 (talk) 13:48, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Hello there. I much appreciate editing efforts regarding this 'songwriting' issue. I have taken the Parker publishing deal edit in the main article and edited it as follows (for the sandbox version):

"To boost earnings for himself and Presley, Parker cut a deal with Hill and Range Publishing Company to create two separate entities—"Elvis Presley Music, Inc" and "Gladys Music"—to handle all of Presley's songs and accrued royalties. The owners of Hill & Range, the Aberbachs, agreed to split the publishing and royalties rights of each song equally with Presley. Hill & Range, Presley or Colonel Parker's partners then had to convince unsecured songwriters that it was worthwhile for them to give up one third of their due royalties in exchange for Presley recording their compositions. One result of these dealings was the appearance of Presley's name as co-writer of some songs he recorded, even though Presley never had any hand in the songwriting process.[58]"

The main difference is that there is reference at the end as to why Presley was credited as a songwriter, when he wasn't one really. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 19:58, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Nice one Rik, looks good and reads a lot better. Would it be ok to put your version into the current article, replacing the paragraph in question? ElvisFan1981 (talk) 21:59, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. I am glad you approve! I guess I am concentrating more on my sandbox - and using any new, useful edits here to help improve it. Please feel free to make the change. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 22:14, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Just a thought, maybe a note could be added (Note c, I think) to name the 'co-written' songs - Heartbreak Hotel, Love me tender and All shook up (any more?). That way folks would know which songs they were, without mentioning them in the main text out of the timeline. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 22:32, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

That's a good idea. Sadly, at the moment, I'm struggling to deal with general references while adding some information about the March 1973 deal with RCA, never mind dealing with notes lol. It's been so long since I really spent a good amount of time editing anything on wiki that I seem to have forgotten the minor things I learnt before. If someone else could deal with the above for the moment, I will try to focus my attentions on learning to edit again. I feel so stupid! ElvisFan1981 (talk) 22:40, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I know how you feel! It's good just know it's an OK idea. I may address it in the sandbox and if it works (I'm rusty) I'll copy it over. It's nice to be doing something productive with this article!! Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 22:51, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

grammar edits, please?

I found a few grammar errors on the Elvis page, but I didn't know if I can offer changes with the locked down page, as I am new to Wikipedia. I am not involved in the whole Elvis-Jewish thing; my questions merely regard the grammatical accuracy and if I can edit those. Thanks Msterrell (talk) 01:48, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi Msterrell. You can edit the Elvis article if you have been a member of Wiki for more than 4 days and have more than 10 edits under your belt. The easiest way to get those 10 edits would be to find random articles and correct spelling and/or grammar errors on those pages. Once you've done more than 10 you will be able to correct mistakes on the Elvis article. Hope that helps. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 08:37, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

This article is too negative.

Since Michael Jackson's death, MJ fans have tried to improve his reputation by destroying Elvis's. On many, many websites, it has been claimed that Elvis was a racist, a rapist, and a pedophile. He's also accused of stealing black music. It appears to me that these people are getting all their information from this site. All this negative information should be removed; it's not needed. Also, the entire "sex" section is unnecessary. It doesn't belong in this article. If someone is interested, he can go buy the book.

In your effort to be neutral, you have overdone the negative and scrimped on the positive. Elvis was dynamite; he was magical; he was breathtaking, but I would never know that from reading your ho-hum article. Put some life in it. Try to give people who weren't there a feeling of what he was really like and what an effect he had on the world. He changed everything. Remember that when his first hit song came out (Hound Dog?), the number one song in the US was Doris Day's "How much is that Doggy in the Window?" And music was never the same again.

beth4664Beth4664 (talk) 05:09, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

As both Elvis and Michael Jackson were pedophiles and drug addicts, suffered from declining profits after a long period of success and died in their younger years because of these personal problems, there is now a dispute among fans about the question, who did things worser than the other. That's all. However, a Wikipedia article should be balanced, as it is not a fan site, and must therefore also discuss the negative and controversial aspects of Elvis's life. Onefortyone (talk) 00:39, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

When in his life did Elvis become a pedophile???Mfbinc 00:55, 22 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mfbinc (talk • contribs)

In his book, Elvis (1981), Professor Goldman has called Elvis a "pedophile" and a "pervert". According to this biographer, "Elvis plays the strutting, overbearing macho in public, but in private he loves nothing better than to roughhouse with teenage girls with whom he exchanges beauty secrets. His basic erotic image is a crotch covered with white panties and showing a bit of pubic hair -- an image no different essentially from male to female." Onefortyone (talk) 01:50, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Your dear professor wrote a hatchet job, you know it, the world knows it, and if it had anything like the credibility of Guralnick's work, it would be cited by far more editors for this article than... let's see now yes, the only editor who thinks its cherry-picked contents are worth quoting is... 141. The controversial claims of this sort require extraordinary evidence and from far better sources; pedophilia is a serious accusation relating to a sexual preference for prepubescent children or those who commit child sexual abuse. I suggest, as I have said before, that 141 finds sigificantly more evidence in the form of testimony from people who have been abused as children, police, medical or court records relating to such claims, or perhaps some details from a 'kiss and tell' biography by at least several of his presumed many child victims. Funny, but this didn't happen after I raised the subject of better evidence before. There is no comparison between the pile of information relating to what Michael Jackson had been accused of over many years and this desperate, barrel-scraping crock of crap accusation against Presley that keeps coming along from a single editor, 141. His activities in wikipedia, when they inevitably come back to this kind of agenda-driven bullshit, are a total disgrace. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 08:28, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Just for your information, Rikstar. Goldman drew on more than four years' research into Elvis's career providing many new insights about the singer's private life based on commentaries by people who knew the singer well. Therefore, this biography is nearer to the real Elvis than many other biographies. It is true that the fans do not like what the author has revealed and that he was very plain-spoken, but according to Rolling Stone magazine (October 21, 1981), Elvis "is a poignant book, the result of Goldman's winning the trust and confidence of hundreds of sources, including many of Elvis' closest friends. It is also an intimate look at a side of Elvis that few even suspected existed. Many people will find some of the revelations unpleasant and view them as a needless and harmful invasion of privacy. Yet, such revelations comprise a truth about modern American heroism and success." Even Greil Marcus, who criticizes some parts of Goldman's biography, admits that the book, "as no book on Elvis Presley before it, ... has been taken seriously. Despite some partially negative or carping notices, the reviewing media have accepted the book as it presents itself--as the last book we will need about Elvis Presley." You are wrong, Rikstar, that pedophilia is an accusation relating only "to a sexual preference for prepubescent children or those who commit child sexual abuse." In law enforcement, the term "pedophile" is generally used to describe those accused or convicted of the sexual abuse of a minor (including both prepubescent children and adolescent minors younger than the local age of consent). The International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (F65.4) defines pedophilia as "a sexual preference for children, boys or girls or both, usually of prepubertal or early pubertal age. However, the so-called "nonexclusive pedophiles" are attracted to both children and adults, and can be sexually aroused by both. And several pedophiles do not sexually abuse the young girls or boys they are interested in. In the case of Elvis, he seems to have been a voyeur primarily interested in watching young adolescents without having sexual intercourse with them. As for Elvis being a nonexclusive pedophile with a sexual preference for early pubescent girls, there are further sources supporting Goldman's view. For instance, Priscilla was only 14 years old when Elvis began dating her, and, according to his guitarist Scotty Moore, at that time, he even had a younger girl living in his house. See That’s Alright, Elvis: The Untold Story of Elvis’s First Guitarist and Manager, Scotty Moore, p.162. Another reputed Elvis biographer, Alanna Nash, who contacted the Memphis Mafia members and many other eye-witnesses, also confirms that the singer had a predilection for young adolescent girls. She says that Elvis was overly attached to his mother and could not relate normally to mature women; and that Elvis sought out very young girls because he felt threatened by women who were older. These are the facts, Rikstar. However, it is understandable that Elvis fans do not like these facts. Onefortyone (talk) 15:53, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I thought you would reply like that; a certain predictability has been established over the interminable years - voluminous content, but not really dealing with hard evidence. Play about with definitons of 'pedophile' and the hearsay of others to suit your argument, but you still supply no evidence, on anything like a scale with M. Jackson, that supports your agenda. And you were the one who made the comparisons. No mention of Jerry Lee Lewis being a pedophile; why not drag him into it as a comparison? That would make more sense regarding his relationship with Priscilla Beaulieu.

You, 141, just want to make any mud stick; whether it be to do with pedophilia, screwing his Mom (or may be his Mom screwing HIM), bisexuality, homosexuality, or somone having giving him a blowjob (check the history, folks - delightful reading!!!). Guralnick never trawled such depths, because he never encounter such aspects (I guess he must be - AN ELVIS FAN!!!!!). Treat the issue with Priscilla Beaulieu fairly; it should be, and then if "141 finds sigificantly more evidence in the form of testimony from people who have been abused as children, police, medical or court records relating to such claims, or perhaps some details from a 'kiss and tell' biography by at least several of his presumed many child victims", perhaps we can make any due amendments. Or may be, in the absence of what most authorites have found, 141 will continue in his efforts to make this whole Presley article as sordid and unrealistic as 141 - as ever - WANTS it to be. It really is appalling how certain editors WANT this article to turn out. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 20:08, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

From a Guralnick book review in Stereophile: '"[Goldman's book] contradicts my ideas of decency and humanity. It has nothing to do with the book I wrote. One of the things I've always tried to do is to leave myself open to truth coming in over the transom. You can't accept any source on faith, but you can't exclude any source. So the fact that I had a visceral dislike for Goldman's book didn't mean I could disregard it. What I did was the same thing I do with fan magazine accounts: I tried to deconstruct [Goldman's] book and remove the attitude, which is a lot of the book—it's probably 70% attitude—to get to what he's really saying and whether it's well-sourced." As far as Goldman's work being well-researched, Guralnick calls Elvis, overall, "chewy" — in other words, mixed. In some cases, like his uncovering of the Dutch background of Presley's inimitable manager, Col. Tom Parker, Goldman was solid. But the evidence for many of the numerous sex frolics cited by Goldman has proved more evanescent.' Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 06:31, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, no one who has followed this article will be surprised that I pretty much agree with Rikstar on this one. I just don't have the wherewithall to keep addressing the same type of BS that keeps being brought up again and again. This same put anything anyone has written that is negative sytle of editing, often in spite of documentation that it is just plain wrong, is too pervasive in articles about popular figures. Thumbs up, Rikstar, for continuing the good fight. Steve Pastor (talk)

I have to say, honestly, that the reason I haven't taken part in this particular discussion until now is simply because I don't know enough on the subject of Presley and "young girls" to really feel qualified enough to talk about it. I don't have at hand any documented evidence that suggests Presley was a potential paedophile. I have read plenty on him, and not once have I ever come across any such suggestions, with possible exception to his relationship with Priscilla, but even then I don't recall once reading or hearing that he did anything massively inappropriate with her. There are only two people who really know the ins and outs of their relationship, and since one of them isn't able to talk right now we must listen to the only one who has, and Priscilla has always insisted that she and Presley did not engage in a serious sexual relationship until their wedding night. Now, whether she is saying this to protect his image or not is something that we will never know, but until further serious evidence comes forward to suggest otherwise, then we must really take it at face value.

The claim that Presley was more interested in young girls than older, more mature women, just doesn't seem to fit in with the facts that I know about. It is well documented about his relationships with his co-stars, none of whom were under 18, and his relationship with Ann-Margret is so famous that it just baffles me that anyone could suggest he was scared of older, mature women. Ann-Margret was easily one of the fiercest women in Hollywood at the time, and perhaps of all-time. She was by no means a "tameable" woman, and she certainly wasn't afraid, from all accounts, to stand up to someone like Elvis if needs be. And of all the relationships that Elvis had during his lifetime, that I can think of off the top of my head right now, I can't think of one woman who could be considered too young (with exception of Priscilla).

From all that I've read and heard on the subject of Elvis and Priscilla, from people who knew them and those who didn't, the reasons Elvis was so attracted to Priscilla was because she reminded him of his mother (who had recently passed when they first met, don't forget, and he may still have been in the mourning process), and he saw an opportunity to mould her into the woman of his dreams. It's no secret that he chose her hairstyle, make-up, clothing etc... and from what I gather he was serious about her becoming a woman he could control. I've not once read that he was interested in just having sex with her. If that's seriously all he wanted he could quite easily have done it, kept it hidden and never seen her again. From my general research, he was nothing but a complete gentleman to her from the moment they met and the whole time they spent together in Germany.

And on the subject of the mirrors in Graceland that would allow people to watch others having sex, all I've read or heard of that is that it was mostly entertainment for the "Memphis Mafia" and hangers on, not really something that Elvis himself was interested in. I'm sure he would occasionally have a look, perhaps laugh and joke with the guys about it, but I remember reading that he would rather spend time alone with Priscilla during such times. Again, what is and isn't true will always be questioned, but it doesn't make it false.

So, I'm suggesting, that until some serious research comes forward that proves Elvis had a liking for young girls that we can all agree on, we should very wisely leave the whole subject out of the article. I'm sure that EPE would have no worries about launching a legal case against Wikipedia if it allowed such freedom of speech without some serious evidence. I'm confident that if you were to ask one million people to use one word to describe Elvis Presley, not one of them would say "paedophile". Could the same be said for someone like Michael Jackson? ElvisFan1981 (talk) 09:44, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Very well put, if I may say so. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 21:50, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

And I just want to add that I think Rikstars above quotes from a Guralnick book review speak volumes. He is a man who has researched a lot more than any of us have, and he has had access to a serious amount of information and people that none of us ever will. If he is cautious of claims about Elvis' sexual history, then I think we all should be. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 09:48, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Quote: "If he [Guralnick] is cautious of claims about Elvis' sexual history, then I think we all should be." We should indeed be, and don't let anyone suggest otherwise, given Guralnick's own revelations of Presley's inadequacies. Clinging to desperate, sensationalistic and isolated claims cloaked in the name of 'research' won't be accepted against the plethora of material that rightly shuns such odious tidbits. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 22:23, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Is there any way to ban an editor? I think 141 should be voted off the island. His interest in Elvis is one-dimensional, pruient, and vulgar. Goldman's book was full of lies. Everyone said so when the book was published. He could say anything he wanted. It's not illegal to slander a dead man.

Elvis dated mature women. Cybill Shepherd is still using her relationship with Elvis to keep her name in the news. He dated all his co-stars. His friends were grown men too--the members of his band. He loved his daughter, but I doubt he liked kids. He certainly didn't hang out with 10-year-olds.Beth4664 (talk) 19:07, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Dear Beth4664, you may not be surprised to hear that 141 has a long and colorful history of warnings, bans, edit arguments or somesuch, but alas, he is still here on this island. And it seems highly likely that he gets off on all the mayhem he causes to us poor, less-resourced and 'less intelligent' mortals than he. But we, comrades in arms of encyclopedic truth, fairness and objectivity, are here too - and the more, the merrier.

I suggest that 141 does as I have done: composes his own sandbox version of the Presley article that HE would think suitable for nomination as a featured article. But I venture the opinion that he will not, because he has never shown the slightest interest in such wiki standards when his own warped agenda has been so dominant in his own mind - and such 'fun' for everyone else - for the last three or so years.

141 has single-handedly driven away many editors of great value to this article, prevented untold others from making valuable contributions (I know them personally), and pushed other worthy editors over the brink of wiki rules. Arbcom and administrators do 'the job', but, as Shania Twain once put it, they collectively "Don't impress me much". Wikipedia has its faults and boy, doesn't wikipedia let characters like 141 run rings around everything it claims to stand for. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 20:58, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

If you, Beth, or anyone, makes good edits (including deletion) of things that have been published, but nevertheless may or may not be "reliable sources", factually correct, or are things that most of us think don't belong in an encyclopedic article, there are those of us who will back your edits. Using the ArbCom, etc, is a time consuming, frustrating process that infrequently is worth the time and effort. I know. I tried. I've seen some (very) gradual improvement over time in various articles, however, and the process of editing will work, eventually.Steve Pastor (talk) 22:27, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

It's funny, but it seems as though I'd stuck a stick into a hornet's nest! Just a few notes. Rikstar said, "if 141 finds sigificantly more evidence in the form of testimony from people who have been abused as children, police, medical or court records relating to such claims, or perhaps some details from a 'kiss and tell' biography by at least several of his presumed many child victims, perhaps we can make any due amendments." Did you actually read what I have written? I said that Elvis seems to have been a voyeur who was primarily interested in watching young adolescent girls without having sexual intercourse with them. This means that he didn't abuse the girls so that there are no such testimonies from child victims as in the case of Michael Jackson. But there are commentaries by people who knew the singer well. What about the statement by his guitarist Scotty Moore that Elvis kept a girl in his house that was younger than 14-year-old Priscilla? What about Alanna Nash’s commentaries on Elvis’s predilection for very young girls, which are all based on eyewitness accounts by the Memphis Mafia members? The latter say that Elvis adored to fondle and suck the toes of these girls. And the young fans certainly liked to be fondled this way by the star. They didn't think of themselves being abused. It is also well known that the King went out with many mature girls only for publicity reasons. He had no sexual relationships with most of his co-stars but dated them because the Colonel told him to do so. Significantly, Peggy Lipton, one of the most beautiful girls who spent a night with the singer, has stated that Elvis was like a "teenage boy". "He didn't feel like a man next to me - more like a boy who'd never matured," and they didn’t have sexual intercourse. This statement speaks volumes. Guralnick is correct in concluding that Elvis wasn't really interested in most of the women he dated. What he primarily liked to do was to lie in bed and watch television and eat and talk all night with them. However, Guralnick was too close-mouthed to tell the truth about the singer’s actual preferences. Others were more outspoken. That’s the difference. Onefortyone (talk) 04:23, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

---

Since MJ's death, it's true that there has been a sudden rise in attacks on Presley, but only because of the whole "Who was better?" argument, which any intelligent person knows is a ridiculous comparison because they came from different times and sang very different types of music. As for suggestions that this article promotes Presley as a "racist, a rapist, and a paedophile", I definitely have to disagree. There is nowhere in the article where he is accused of being a rapist or a paedophile, and the only part that discusses any kind of racism does so to the point where it is made very clear that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Presley was a racist, in fact it even states that the opposite is true.

I wouldn't worry about MJ fans trying to destroy the image of Presley. For over 30 years people have been trying to destroy the image of Presley with tell-all books, documentaries etc... and none of it has ever worked. Personally I think the reason that MJ fans are getting their knickers in such a twist and trying to make Presley look bad (and I say this as a fan of both EP and MJ) is because it's actually MJ who will go down in the history books as the one with the worst reputation. There will always be a "who was better...." row going on with regards to Presley. For the last 40 years it's been between him and the Beatles, and now that MJ is dead it's between those two.

It's quite literally impossible to compare a man whose first hits were in the 1950's, before they even had proper stereo recordings, and a man who grew up and developed as an artist at a time when advancements in recording music were far beyond that of stereo. And don't forget that MJ had the advantage of the MTV generation, where Presley didn't. MJ toured the world, Presley never did. MJ made music videos that lasted over 10 minutes and were considered mini-masterpieces, Presley never did (mainly because it wasn't the norm then.) However, with all the advances that MJ did have, he still failed to sell more records than Presley has done. Presley, despite his lack of touring, tv promotion and digital downloads still holds that record. It's been reported that the first few days after MJ died he sold about 20,000 records a day. Presley sold in excess of 20 MILLION records in the days following his death. And he is still selling millions of albums a year, despite them mostly being re-hashed, re-releases of greatest hits. 30 years after his death, Presley is still huge business. Time will tell if MJ will have as much of a staying power, but in the meantime we should all just enjoy the music of both these legendary entertainers and stop arguing.

As for how you think the article should be improved, I think that if you notice an area that could do with having some life put into it then I wouldn't object to you attempting that yourself. I would only ask that any major changes are discussed in here first. Good luck and I look forward to seeing any improvements. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 08:21, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Just to add to the above excellent points made by ElvisFan1981: there are sections of the article that describe the impact he made and the special qualities of his voice, etc. There is little point in going over top to describe how "Elvis was dynamite; he was magical; he was breathtaking", etc. It doesn't need to belong in this article. If someone is interested, they can go buy his records, DVDs, watch youtube etc.

I agree the sex symbol bits don't work in this article; the whole section is cheap. And there should be more about what qualities he had that created his reputation.

As for Jackson fans thinking Elvis was racist, take a look at the myths being perpetuated by Chuch D, Mary J. Blige, Eminem, etc. That's where Jackson fans are being misinformed, not by anything in the Presley article. If you can add anything positive to this article, please discuss your ideas or edits here. Your efforts would be very welcome. Rikstar⁴⁰⁹ 17:54, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to know why anything "Onefortyone" writes is not deleted immediately, and any and all of his requests ignored. It is obvious this person is simply looking to have as many negative things about Elvis here as possible, and mostly lies and BS, like Goldman's book et. This person presents himself as if he's interested in the facts while it's clear he's only interested in defaming Elvis. Alone, just his using Goldman's book for info, as if it's anything but garbage that hasn't been debunked decades ago, is enough to prove this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.3.249.123 (talk) 07:15, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Just for your information, IP75.3.249.123. I am not only citing Goldman, as similar statements about Elvis can be found in hundreds of other sources, among them Elvis biographies and university studies. And I have personally contributed enough "positive" content concerning most sections of the article, for instance, dealing with his mother and father, the star's youth, his early stardom, his voice, his TV appearances, his movies, his interest in gospel music, his friends and relationships, his political beliefs, the singer's manager Parker, Elvis's stages in Las Vegas, but also with his consumption of drugs, his death, the Elvis cult, etc. etc. However, it is understandable that Elvis fans do not like to hear the more disappointing truths about the singer's life. Goldman's book has been called explosive, inflammatory, malicious, and brilliant at the same time, but it does not include lies. It may, at best, include some biased interpretations and assumptions. The author may also have been wrong about Elvis's music (he doesn't like rock and roll very much, and he says so) and has often used rather condescending language, but he was absolutely right about the man, because he presents Presley as the weak, dependent, bigoted and self-destructive singer he really was - not as the flawless megastar many fans would like to see him in their pathetic, if not infantile, fantasies. By the way, Goldman was not the first or the only biographer to maintain that Presley was a drug-addicted, mother-fixated freak with a fetish for guns, 14-year-old girls and excessive amounts of peanut butter and banana sandwiches. In fact, 5 years before Goldman's book came out, two of Elvis's own bodyguards, Sonny and Red West, wrote a book, entitled "Elvis: What Happened?" In this book they revealed, from their own point of view, pretty much all the same things that Goldman later would. And there are many more sources of this kind. For instance, here is reputed Elvis biographer, Greil Marcus, about the "shocking truth" that Elvis's mother Gladys may have had "years of bliss with Elvis in her bed, or she in his": " 'It makes sense,' said Adrian Sibley of the BBC's The Late Show. 'America has brought Elvis up to date: now he needs therapy just like everybody else. Don't they have twelve-step programs for incest survivors?' 'It makes sense,' said Jip Golsteijn, pop critic for the Amsterdam Telegraaf. 'It's what I heard again and again in Tupelo, years ago. Nobody meant it as a condemnation. Given the way Elvis and Gladys were about each other, it was simply the conclusion everyone drew.' " See Marcus, Double Trouble: Bill Clinton and Elvis Presley in a Land of No Alternatives (2000), p.6. Interestingly, the current Wikipedia article does not waste a word about the Oedipal Elvis, because this material has been removed some years ago, although the close relationship to his mother (a fact that is also stressed by Guralnick, Elaine Dundy and many other biographers) must have had an immense influence on the singer's development. On the other hand, the Wikipedia article includes much information about Elvis's career as a singer, his setting records for concert attendance, television ratings and recordings sales. We read, for instance, that he is "the best-selling solo artist in the history of music, selling over one billion records internationally, and he is regarded as one of the most important figures of twentieth century popular culture. Among his many awards and accolades were 14 Grammy nominations (3 wins) from the National Academy of Recording Arts & Sciences, the Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award, which he received at age 36, and his being named One of the Ten Outstanding Young Men of the Nation for 1970 by the United States Jaycees." Some time ago I have included what music critic Henry Pleasants has written about the King's voice:

"Elvis Presley has been described variously as a baritone and a tenor. An extraordinary compass... and a very wide range of vocal color have something to do with this divergence of opinion. The voice covers two octaves and a third ... Moreover, he has not been confined to one type of vocal production. In ballads and country songs he belts out full-voiced high G's and A's that an opera baritone might envy. He is a naturally assimilative stylist with a multiplicity of voices—in fact, Elvis' is an extraordinary voice, or many voices."

Does this all sound negative? And do you think that this passage should be deleted immediately? I don't think so. The problem with Elvis is that he didn't write his own songs as Bob Dylan and Paul McCartney did, and that he had to sing many songs he personally didn't like. It is no secret that the so-called King of Rock'n'Roll would have preferred gospel music. This is also a fact many fans didn't like. Be that as it may, a Wikipedia article should be balanced and must also contain some critical content, especially if it is to be found in reliable sources. Onefortyone (talk) 21:41, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Some questions concerning the intro paragraph

The following paragraph has recently been rewritten by ElvisFan1981:

• Throughout his career, he set records for concert attendance, television ratings and recordings sales. He is the best-selling solo artist in the history of music, selling over one billion records internationally, and he is regarded as one of the most important figures of twentieth century popular culture. Among his many awards and accolades were 14 Grammy nominations (3 wins) from the National Academy of Recording Arts & Sciences, the Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award, which he received at age 36, and his being named One of the Ten Outstanding Young Men of the Nation for 1970 by the United States Jaycees.

Query: do we need all these details? Here is the "List of the Ten Outstanding Young Americans" for 1970:

• Atkins, Thomas I., 31 - Municipal Affairs
• Bucha, Paul W., 27 - Military Service
• Capecchi, Mario R., 32 - Biological Research
• Cherry, Harry W., 35 – Business
• Coll, Edward T., 30 - Voluntary Service
• Goetz, James B., 34 - State Affairs
• Humann, Walter J., 33 – Business
• Presley, Elvis, 35 – Entertainment
• Todaro, Dr. George, 33 – Medicine
• Ziegler, Ronald L., 31 - National Affairs

What is so important about this list that it is mentioned in the intro paragraph? Furthermore, we read that Elvis is the best-selling solo artist ever who sold over one billion records. The following sources indicate that this is merely an assumption:

• The Rolling Stone Encyclopedia of Rock & Roll, Third Edition (2001) says that Elvis "is believed to have sold over 1 billion records worldwide" (p. 774).
• Billboard wrote (May 12, 2001): "By 1984, RCA had manufactured 1 billion Presley records." (But if this is really true, were all these records actually bought by the fans or were many of them returned by the record stores?)
• In their book, Buy, keep or sell? (2006), Judith Miller and Mark Hill write (p.246): "It is estimated that he has sold more than one billion records."
• Here is Linda Romine, Frommer's Nashville & Memphis (2004), p.197: "Elvis has sold more than a billion records worldwide, according to some industry estimates."
• Susan Doll, Elvis for Dummies (2009): "Estimations purport that Elvis Presley has sold more than one billion records worldwide without touring outside of the US and Canada..."
• In her book, Elvis As We Knew Him (2003), Jennifer Harrison (an Elvis fan) claims: "If, in 1977, RCA-Victor had pressed two billion records, you can assume that number to be accurate in regards to record sales, since I assure you that Elvis Presley records are not being returned by record stores, who realize they will always be able to sell these records no matter what the popular trends in music." (p.117) (Really?)

So the intro should better say, " It is assumed by many (or It has been claimed by some industry estimates) that Elvis is the best-selling solo artist artist in the history of music, selling over one billion records internationally..." Onefortyone (talk) 01:20, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

With regards to the list of awards, it is one of the few awards and accolades that Presley ever did appear in person to accept, I think that says in itself how much the award actually meant to him (it's common knowledge that Presley very rarely attended awards ceremonies). Considering there are only a handful listed, I don't personally think that it's a problem being included in the opening paragraph, it hardly weighs it down with an endless list. And actually, how many entertainment personalities have received the award in over seventy years? 15 out of hundreds of people awarded the title. I think that is significant enough to be mentioned. And also it states "awards and accolades", and the title is an accolade. If, however, you feel it shouldn't be included then by all means remove it.

Secondly, with regards to the claim of over one billion records sold, you'd have to ask the person who included that in the first place about how it should be worded. ElvisFan1981 (talk) 08:35, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

New picture

Would anyone be interested in getting a new picture for the intro? That hairstyle looks dated now, even though it was fine at the time. I always liked the black leather jacket shot from the come-back special--timeless. He was in the best shape of his life too-lean, mean, cool, sexy. That's the way I would like him to be remembered.Beth4664 (talk) 23:47, 24 July 2009 (UTC)