Talk:Diablada

Just From One Country?

Recently i have been seeing many changes of this page. Some changes that say that the dance Belongs to Bolivia. If you edit this page then please leave out Patriotism and put in only facts.

Not Everything Is Born To Be Known 20:45, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

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Ive heard that the dance is Bolivian, UNESCO has recogniced as Bolivian, dont know why Perubian still say that its theirs, here in NY i know many of them and they dont even know what the dance is like, anyway just a thought.

23 sept 2009

Your toughts are incorrect. Peru claims that the dance belongs to all nations whose culture is associated with it. In other words, Peru claims that they, Chile, and Bolivia have equal rights upon the dance. However, it's only the idiotic government of Bolivia, and several ignorants from said nation, that claim the dance as their own. UNESCO has recognized the "Carnaval de Oruro" as an important patrimony of humanity, but has not said anything about who holds the ownership of the dances or music.--$%MarshalN20%$ (talk) 16:04, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Bolivia may be perhaps the country where the Daiblada has most signifation for the country as whole, but the claim of exclusivity is just a recent political claim. Any polemical statement of exclusivity, origin, or something simmilar should be removed from that artcile of not properly sourced. This article seems to need permanent watching. Dentren | ^Talk 16:39, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I dont get Perubian, i just read in the news that they claim ownership as well, but now they are saying the dance is from the region, seems to me that they are changing their arguments, ill just keep looking, but for what ive seen the dance is much stronger in Bolivia than Peru or Chile, so maybe it is Bolivian afterall.--User talk:131.178.240.181

It seems to me that Evo Morales, the Ekeko, has brainwashed Bolivians. Just because the dance is more popular in Bolivia, it doesn't mean that the Bolivians invented it. That's quite a pointless argument.--$%MarshalN20%$ (talk) 12:59, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Sourcing

I'll try to find more sources about the dance. I don't really care much about it, but I don't agree with the random IP editors who vandalize the page and take advantage of the lack of reliable sources. My position is the same: The Diablada is a dance of Peru, Chile, and Bolivia. It's an important part of these 3 nation, and not one nation can claim exclusivity of this dance. Of course, if any other editor wishes to bring in other sources in order to build up on the article, they can feel free to do so.--$%MarshalN20%$ (talk) 17:44, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

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Here i found some sources (Mexican, not Bolivian or Perubian) about the status of the conflict, unfortunatly is in spanish, if you know spanish then read them. http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/621071.html http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2009/08/21/index.php?section=espectaculos&article=a08n2esp --User talk:131.178.240.181

Those sources talk about Bolivian propaganda for the dance. Nothing more.--$%MarshalN20%$ (talk) 12:59, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

i dont get why mexicans that have nothing to do with the dance would make propaganda for them, i found a similar article from England, later ill upload it.--User talk:131.178.241.109

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well i went to Bolivia 2 years ago and seen the Entrada universidad, hope is spelled correctly, really big party in La Paz, all streets closed and a lots of dances including Diablada, the next year I went to Peru and havent see it, they had other good dances but I haven’t seen this Diablada. and now I hear that the town of Puno only has it, looking at a map, and adding the regions in Chile that the Diablada is danced, Bolivia is the center and at the borders with Peru and Chile, it is also the places where the Diablada is danced. In my opinion the dance has spread from Bolivia to the borders of other countries many years ago maybe, iam not saying is Bolivian but if you see it, feels Bolvian. Now it is true, they don’t have the exclusivity to dance it, but hey if I was a Brazilian going around saying the Tango is from Brazil, I am sure there would be some mad Argentineans that would be really pised of--User talk:131.178.240.181

The Diablada was being danced in Puno much longer than it has been in Oruro. So, the Diablada originated in Peru. Simple as that. However, the Peruvian government does not claim sole ownership of the dance. It knows that Bolivia and Chile also practice it, and thus it was never really a point of discussion between these nations. That is, until Bolivia now claims it as its own.--$%MarshalN20%$ (talk) 12:59, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I more less agree with Marshal, and I want to point out the following things to keep in mind;

• It is historian José Morales Serruto (here) who claims that the Diablada orignated in Juli, other sources (page 478) mentions autosacramentales in Juli, but does not claim any origin of the dance. Dr. José Morales Serruto seems a reliable source despite being cited by Peruvian newspapers.
• The dispute is absurd because the diablada is Aymara-Quechue-Colonial heritage no mathers in which country it was first perfomed. Aymara and Quechua culture predates the formation of the modern states of Bolivia, Chile and Peru.
• The Spanish wikipedia article explains this topic much better than here, explaining much better the Aymara-Quechua component of the dance, that makes it a whole different thing than a medieval dance from Spain.
• The overall popularity of this dance and national identification with it may be strongest in Bolivia (and therefoe they might have started this dispute) but this "idea" can not be incluided if not properly sourced. Dentren | ^Talk 13:27, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

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please one comment only, its ok that you have your opinion Marshal but this is a discussion between people who have something to say, it is clear you are Perubian or love Peru and would like to go for youre country, but just one comment is enough, let other people say their arguments, thanks.--User talk:131.178.241.109

CHILEAN OPINION

I am Chilean living in Chicago, I know a lot of Bolivians and danced the diablada as morenada many times, best dance ever, and i just laugh how Perubians tend to steal everything, I admit that Chileans dance it but we know is Bolivian, and reading this discussion seems there is a whole discussion with one peruabian trying to make PUNOS the Diablada saying is the oldest manifestation from this dance, i say prove it, it is easy to say Puno is the birth place of Diablada, but proving it its different, my friends told me that the litigation that Bolivia is doing has proves on it, but Peruvians is just bla bla bla. Really folks don’t believe in anything Perubians say, In southamerica are known as thief’s.--User talk:131.178.241.109

You know it looks really silly for you to be acting as different people when we can all see it's the same person from before. Tisk, tisk. Shame on you.--$%MarshalN20%$ (talk) 02:48, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately for you it was a different person using the same port, that’s why it says CHiLEAN OPINION, no my opinion, but I think now him and me share the same thinking about Perubians being thief’s, now really shame on me?? Try to look yourself in the mirror then let me know Peruvian.--User talk:131.178.241.109

Why don't you reveal yourself? I know you're a Wikipedian with a registered account. You keep saying it was somebody else, but IP addresses are not shared unless they are from public places. Obviously, if your IP was public, more than two people would write on it.--$%MarshalN20%$ (talk) 03:39, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Instead of asking who am i, why don’t you prove me that Puno is the place where the diablada was born , really i want to see that, not from Peruvian pages please, becuase i had enough of them, all is bla bla bla, no facts…

If you're going to take that position, then all Bolivian information on the matter would also be "bla bla bla." Also, I ask you to reveal yourself in order for us to have a better discussion. After all, discussing things with an IP Address is a highly informal way to discuss things. For all we know, it could be me behind that IP address.--$%MarshalN20%$ (talk) 04:32, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

You are the one who claims that Punos diablada was danced before everyone else, I ve never made that assumption about Bolivia yet, even in the main page shown as it was a fact(soon changed) now I am asking you show me that fact, If u are so sure show it to me then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.178.241.109 (talk) 05:04, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Addition references?

If more verification is needed it might be found in one of the sources listed at the bottom of the page: Template:Es icon"Origen de la Diablada". Punomagico.com. Retrieved 2009-09-27.

• Fraile D. Gonzales Olguín, “Arte de la lengua Aymara y Vocabulario General del Perú"
• Enrique Cuentas Ormachea.
• José Morales Serruto, Ana Isabel Morales Aguirre, (2009) Historia de la Diablada Diablada Azoguini.
• ¿La Diablada es Boliviana? Los Andes (2008).
• “Religión y Fiesta de la Virgen Candelaria” Tomas C. Yupanqui Aza
• “Tata Pancho “Historia, Costumbres y Tradiciones Jose M. Gallegos.

75.69.0.58 (talk) 05:22, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Those are some great sources. Thank you.--$%MarshalN20%$ (talk) 12:18, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

what part of non perubian you didt get, all of this are Perubian, i got 100 Bolivian links also that talks about the origins of the Diablada,but wouldnt help in this situation. "la Diablada es Boliviana by Los Andes" (perubian newspaper)really, are you serius, waste of time with you Perubians, I bet Chile would give me stronger argument. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.178.241.109 (talk) 05:43, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

What is your problem with Chile? First you act as a Chilean (though you obviously aren't), and now you keep bringing up Chile in the discussion. All material is properly referenced in the article.--$%MarshalN20%$ (talk) 12:13, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

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Well first of all I’m proceeding to remove the section Bolivian "reivindication" because it’s written in a biased (and extremely offensive way) this is an encyclopaedia and such kind of non-academic attempts to insult a country are not acceptable here. Secondly Marshall I ask you to remove the national insults you have written above, because those are clear violations of WP:NPA and WP:CIV.

Now to contribute with more sources here is the definition of "Diablada" in the Diccionario de la lengua española de la Real Academia Española: In Spanish:

Danza típica de la región de Oruro, en Bolivia, llamada así por la careta y el traje de diablo que usan los bailarines.

In English:

Typical dance of the region of Oruro, in Bolivia, called that way because of the mask and the devil suit wore by the dancers

• http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=Diablada

And the Proclamation 2001: "the Carnival of Oruro" by the UNESCO says:

The town of Oruro, situated at an altitude of 3,700 metres in the mountains of western Bolivia and once a pre-Columbian ceremonial site, was an important mining area in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. Resettled by the Spanish in 1606, it continued to be a sacred site for the Uru people, who would often travel long distances to perform their rituals, especially for the principal Ito festival. The Spanish banned these ceremonies in the seventeenth century, but they continued under the guise of Christian liturgy: the Andean gods were concealed behind Christian icons and the Andean divinities became the Saints. The Ito festival was transformed into a Christian ritual, celebrated on Candlemas (2 February). The traditional llama llama or diablada in worship of the Uru god Tiw became the main dance at the Carnival of Oruro.

• http://www.unesco.org/culture/ich/index.php?cp=BO

And to all the Spanish speakers maybe you'll find this reading quite enlightening:

• http://www.unet.univie.ac.at/~a9750175/spanisch/diablada_punenia.htm

It's the 1986 Boletín de Lima with an article of Enrique Cuentas Ormachea saying on page 35 last paragraph:

"The Diablada was presented in Puno the February 2nd of 1918, in the festivity of the Virgen de la Candelaria. Under the name of “Los Vaporinos” a group of workers from the Peruvian Corp., that sailed the waters of the Lake Titicaca, was formed. They rented the suits of the dance and a band of musicians to the Bolivian dancer Pedro Pablo Corrales, who was recognized as “Diablada” master.

...

“los Andes” of Puno said: “to the puneñian festivity of La Candelaria, of 1918, was brought for the first time a devil’s squad..."

Historians like Julia Elena Fortún and Teresa Gisbert state that the modern Diablada is a genre of the medieval syncretism product of the mixture of the Spanish tradition of Ball de Diables from Tarragona and the ancient not Aymara, not Quechua but Uru tradition of the Llama Llama which took place centuries ago in the current location of Oruro as the UNESCO states. Teresa Gisbert also states that the Ball de diables inspired what today is Diablada in Oruro and the Juli's "autos sacramentales" inspired the Saqras or Sajras Devils in Cuzco. Get it? two different dances one has its roots in the Uru beliefs and the other in the Quechua ones.

It doesn't have to do with politics or beauty contests it's just pure history if you read the rules of the project Wikipedia you should start your own article Saqras and put Diego González Holguin's writings about the "devil dances" in Peru.

Now there is plenty to develop about this subject the same debate is being held in the Spanish Wikipedia, serious developers are working in this subject so I please ask not to reduce this cultural topic to gossip about beauty pageants or socialism, because that only shows that the people who pretend to become the police of this article lack of knowledge of this particular topic and are only trying to push their hatred to the other country which against Wikipedia's policy.--Erebedhel (talk) 10:51, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

This is boring. So first, in regards to the UNESCO statement, it doesn't state that it certifies the dance as Bolivian. It simply calls the Diablada a traditional dance. Then, I find it funny how you reference Enrique Cuentas Ormachea, because in this article he states:

"La Diablada Puneña hasta 1965, fue todavía diferente de la boliviana. La transformación se debió a que el grupo de llamado como los “Vaporinos” empezó, en la década de los 20, a introducir elementos bolivianos; sin embargo todavía se hacían acompañar por una banda de “Sicu-Morenos”, compuesta por instrumentistas de sicus o zampoñas que se acompañaban con un bombo, una tarola o redoblante, un par de platillos y un triángulo. Este grupo musical ejecutaba huaynos de ritmo sincopado, a cuyo compás bailaban diablos caporales, diablos menores, chinas diablas y demás “figuras” que acompañaban (“Viejito” “negro jetón”, “apache”. “león”, “murciélago”, “cóndor”, “oso”, “gorila”, “jirafa”, etc.)."

Essentially, Ormachea further expands on the story and states that the Diablada Punena began to receive some Bolivian influence through the "Vaporinos." However, in the same article he explains that it was only an influence, and that the Diablada Punena was already being danced prior to the "Vaporinos." Here's the article: Diablada: coreografía, vestimenta y música.

Here's also this article which explains the origins of the Diablada Punena (how it was done before the Bolivian Diablada). This article has many more details and is quite informative (with some pictures as well): El Sicu Moreno en la Diablada de Puno.

It's all in Spanish, but the information is straight-forward. The basic point is, as was mentioned before, the Diablada originated in Juli, Puno.--$%MarshalN20%$ (talk) 12:44, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I repeat, you have violated WP:NPOV, where?

• The use of quotation in reivindication to imply your position against Bolivia’s demand, (besides reivindication is not an existent English word)
• The tagging as propaganda instead of describing in a neutral tone the dispute.
• Mentioning "which they wished to show" in a sarcastic way.
• The last paragraph only shows a biased interpretation of what the UNESCO has in its description.

Also you have violated WP:NPA and WP:CIV insulting Bolivians above, I asked you to erase those offensive statements but you haven’t. First attend those points then you can continue.

Now you have to make a difference between what is it a biased source (i.e. any Bolivian or Peruvian newspaper) and a neutral source (i.e. UNESCO and RAE) you can interpret as you please, and actually the Wikipedia manual states that when there is a dispute, it has to be written in an unbiased way giving the proper information to let the reader to make a decision. But sadly there is absolutely no international organization claiming that the Diablada is “traditional” in Peru (no matter how you want to interpret the word "traditional"). When the definition itself of the word "Diablada" changes, and the Peruvian government could make the RAE and the UNESCO mention that it’s also "traditional" in Peru then you can change the article meanwhile it’s only non-sense ramblings of Peruvian newspapers.

As for the complete paragraph (is always good to read a complete article, book or description before jumping to conclusions) you have only read the "traditional" part but you have failed to read that the whole paragraph is talking about. how Oruro was the place of an pre-Columbian ancient tradition (that place I particular not Juli or Puno not even La Paz) to where all the Uru people "would often travel long distances to perform their rituals, especially for the principal Ito festival" That’s before any Spanish conqueror settled in Juli.

I’ve read a long time ago both of your "articles" (non WP:RS) and I ask any scholar to prove me that a post-national-dispute editorial written by a Peruvian historian, is more valid than the same historian writing about the same topic quoting the same newspaper's news 90 years ago the very same day when the event happened (primary source) saying: to the puneñian festivity of La Candelaria, of 1918, was brought for the first time a devil’s squad..

In the 1986 article he also mentions on page 45 that:

The puneñian Diablada from 1922 till 1965, was different from the Bolivian. The transformation was due to the economic limitations of the group “Vaporinos”, who introduced the first Diablada, that didn’t allow them to pay the costs of rent of a musicians’ band, replacing it by the “Sicu-Morenos” band.

Everybody knows that once a dispute arises both parts won’t write in a neutral way. And that’s a clear proof of that.

And do you even think that "infopuno.com" is a reliable source? Please, is just a collection of copy/paste of the studies of Cuentas Ormachea and Teresa Gisbert (which I've also read entirely) but adding their biased interpretations as an advertisement of Puno's tourism and Cusqueña Beer. Instead why nobody mentions the "great mystical and ancestral" introduction of Superman and the Mexican and the dancing skeleton in Puno? Enrique Cuentas Ormachea also mentions that in both articles.--Erebedhel (talk) 23:45, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Why the hell are IPs even allowed to edit Wikipedia files anyway? All you see is them changing facts to their own opinions. I'm neither on Peru's or Bolivia's side as to who the Diablada belongs to, but based on facts i would have to say that it originated in Juli, Puno. Now this discussion as to who it belongs to is an endless one. The dance is of Aymara origin, so it should be kept like that. Back then when the Spanish came there was only the land called Peru, there was no Bolivia, no Chile, nothing except New Spain, and Peru. I don't believe either countries should have the right to call the folklore theirs, but since patriotism has been taken to a whole new level of fanaticism they will never call it a draw, it will always be claimed by one side and disputed by the others. Never the less, I suggest we keep the article neutral as we have had it over the past months. As for UNESCO, they recognized the Carnaval of Oruro as an important festival to the Bolivian people, they never said that it was a Bolivian heritage. --Unknown Lupus —Preceding undated comment added 00:04, 30 September 2009 (UTC).

Lupus, Peru isn't claiming the dance as national property. It's claiming that the dance belongs to all nations with Aymara culture (Peru, Bolivia, and Chile; and maybe even Argentina). Moreover, history shows that the dance originated in Juli, Puno, Peru. These people from Puno don't want to be forced to claim that the dance that was first done in their city is "from Bolivia." FURTHERMORE, Puno isn't even telling Bolivia to say that they are dancing a Peruvian dance. It's Bolivia's corrupt government that is making a big problem about this. They've brainwashed people to really believe that the dance originated in Bolivian, that it is purely Bolivian, and that everybody else copied them. No nation has to put up with this kind of bullying; and much less should Wikipedia stand for historical errors.--$%MarshalN20%$ (talk) 00:37, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm agreeing with you Marshal but the thing is now that the dispute has been thrown out into the open, it won't just stop now because of Bolivia's claim. I'm gonna keep and eye on this thread, i already know that i am gonna have some idiots who are cowards enough to use a private IP are gonna edit this article. As for the other users, show respect, it's Peruvian, not perubian, it's Chilean, not chilen, it's Bolivian, not bolibian. I thought Evo Morales was gonna help Bolivia get as a top South American country, but just because he is of Native Andean blood does not give him right to claim ownership of folklores. I am gonna keep a close eye on specially two articles, this one and the Ekeko article since Bolivia has also claim sole ownership of the Ekeko as well. --Unknown Lupus