Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement: Difference between revisions
→Comments by others about the request concerning Biruitorul: dahn has presented an interesting diff |
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:::Before someone other than myself clarifies this, let me just note that [[Special:Contributions/82.78.6.250|an IP who added 15 external links to the same commercial site within a period of two hours]] certainly struck ''me'' as spammy. Twice, it even caused alarm for an anti-spam bot. - [[User:Biruitorul|Biruitorul]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Biruitorul|Talk]]</sup></small> 21:43, 6 May 2010 (UTC) |
:::Before someone other than myself clarifies this, let me just note that [[Special:Contributions/82.78.6.250|an IP who added 15 external links to the same commercial site within a period of two hours]] certainly struck ''me'' as spammy. Twice, it even caused alarm for an anti-spam bot. - [[User:Biruitorul|Biruitorul]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Biruitorul|Talk]]</sup></small> 21:43, 6 May 2010 (UTC) |
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::::[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Victor_Rebengiuc&action=historysubmit&diff=359250031&oldid=359248519 Me too.] In fact, I have to wonder why a bot didn't revert it by default (my edit summary was in expectation of that). [[User:Dahn|Dahn]] ([[User talk:Dahn|talk]]) 22:07, 6 May 2010 (UTC) |
::::[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Victor_Rebengiuc&action=historysubmit&diff=359250031&oldid=359248519 Me too.] In fact, I have to wonder why a bot didn't revert it by default (my edit summary was in expectation of that). [[User:Dahn|Dahn]] ([[User talk:Dahn|talk]]) 22:07, 6 May 2010 (UTC) |
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::Tznkai, I know you like Latin phrases, and I think an important question is: was I in a state of ''[[mens rea]]'' at the time of the questionable edits? In other words, did I knowingly and intentionally set out to violate the topic ban? The answer is no, absolutely not. I thought, wrongly, that what I did was permissible, and of course this has served as a dramatic alarm bell which will prevent such mishaps in the future. Another point I'd like to raise is the paucity of controversial edits: fewer than half a dozen over the course of four months, and those few potentially justifiable, hardly constitutes a crime spree. And I'd like to introduce a new piece of evidence in my defense, if I may. On my computer hard drive, I have a list of articles I plan to modify for the better once this utterly pointless topic ban is lifted. Let me give a few examples: |
::Tznkai, I know you like Latin phrases, and I think an important question is: was I in a state of ''[[mens rea]]'' at the time of the questionable edits? In other words, did I knowingly and intentionally set out to violate the topic ban? The answer is no, absolutely not. I thought, wrongly, that what I did was permissible, and of course this has served as a dramatic alarm bell which will prevent such mishaps in the future. Another point I'd like to raise is the paucity of controversial edits: fewer than half a dozen over the course of four months, and those few potentially justifiable, hardly constitutes a crime spree. And I'd like to introduce a new piece of evidence in my defense, if I may. On my computer hard drive, I have a list of articles I plan to modify for the better once this utterly pointless topic ban is lifted. Let me give a few examples: |
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::The point is this: there are many things I have seen that need fixing, but since they in no way to my mind constitute vandalism, I have not done so. That I thought my edits were a form of undoing vandalism I now see was in error, but it was by no means an ''intentional'' defiance of the topic ban. |
::The point is this: there are many things I have seen that need fixing, but since they in no way to my mind constitute vandalism, I have not done so. That I thought my edits were a form of undoing vandalism I now see was in error, but it was by no means an ''intentional'' defiance of the topic ban. |
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::So do give me a strong warning — after this episode, I've learned a very clear lesson. Do assign me backlog-cleanup tasks. Do monitor my edits if you wish. Do know that I shall be going to ArbCom to request further clarifications, and working much more closely within the parameters they set, always erring on the side of caution. But also, do keep in mind that I never intended to ignore the topic ban and I think very carefully before I edit — I shall be doing so even more stringently from now on. Given these facts, and given there is zero further possibility of trouble from me (trust me, I don't enjoy being hauled before this body), I would submit that a block is not warranted. - [[User:Biruitorul|Biruitorul]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Biruitorul|Talk]]</sup></small> 21:43, 6 May 2010 (UTC) |
::So do give me a strong warning — after this episode, I've learned a very clear lesson. Do assign me backlog-cleanup tasks. Do monitor my edits if you wish. Do know that I shall be going to ArbCom to request further clarifications, and working much more closely within the parameters they set, always erring on the side of caution. But also, do keep in mind that I never intended to ignore the topic ban and I think very carefully before I edit — I shall be doing so even more stringently from now on. Given these facts, and given there is zero further possibility of trouble from me (trust me, I don't enjoy being hauled before this body), I would submit that a block is not warranted. - [[User:Biruitorul|Biruitorul]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Biruitorul|Talk]]</sup></small> 21:43, 6 May 2010 (UTC) |
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:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Victor_Rebengiuc&action=historysubmit&diff=359250031&oldid=359248519 The link] by Dahn is especially telling. Note the edit summary....'''''maybe this is spam, but let someone else be the judge of that'''''. If a non-topic banned editor is leaving it up to someone else to be the judge of, I fail to see why a topic-banned editor thinks they are able to make that judgement call. Biruitorul knew he was topic banned, and as a member of the [[WP:EEML]], he was privvy to the big party on the list when I was topic banned (he made comments on it himself in the emails), so he would have known what a broadly construed topic ban entailed, so there is no reason to buy into the "I didn't think" routine that is being put here. I think it is about time that editors are made to '''take responsibility''' for their edits, and the time is about now. --[[User:Russavia|Russavia]] <sup>[[User talk:Russavia|I'm chanting as we speak]]</sup> 23:26, 6 May 2010 (UTC) |
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===Result concerning Biruitorul=== |
===Result concerning Biruitorul=== |
Revision as of 23:26, 6 May 2010
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions
Important information Please use this page only to:
For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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Biruitorul
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Biruitorul
- User requesting enforcement
- Russavia I'm chanting as we speak 18:57, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Biruitorul (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- Wikipedia:EEML#Biruitorul_topic_banned
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
All edits are clearly within the scope of an Eastern European topic ban.
- [1] - Forced labour camps in Communist Bulgaria
- [2] - Romanian politician
- [3] - Romanian city
- [4] - Romanian politician
- [5] - Romanian journalist
- [6] - Romanian politician
- [7] - Romanian artist and Christian apologist
- [8] - Romanian director
- [9] - Romanian politician
- [10] - Romanian filmmaker
- [11] - Romanian politician
- [12] - Romanian philosopher
- [13] - Demographic history of Romania
- [14] - Armenians in Samtskhe-Javakheti (nationalist issues)
- [15] - Armenia–Portugal relations
- [16] - Romanian city
- [17] - Romanian politician
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- # Not applicable
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- The editor is already under a topic ban, so a block is now in order.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Biruitorul has been ignoring the topic ban since January 2010, and has increased his breaches of the topic ban in recent days. Many of the edits are judgement calls on his part, and as User:Sandstein has stated in the past (to me actually), topic ban means topic ban, and other editors are available to take care of such things if they are required. There are no Wikipedia:EEML#Amendments_by_motion, so one can only assume that Biruitorul has no good nor sound reason to be blatantly ignoring his topic ban since January.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- [18]
Discussion concerning Biruitorul
Statement by Biruitorul
Comments by others about the request concerning Biruitorul
Russavia, could you please briefly annotate your list of diffs with what article they concern, and why that article falls within the topic ban? For example, for your second listed diff :Andrei Pleşu, Romanian politician" would suffice.--Tznkai (talk) 19:38, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- It appears the only question is whether Bulgaria(ns), Romania(ns), Armenia(ns) or Georgia(ns) would fairly fall under the topic "articles about Eastern Europe, their associated talk pages, and any process discussion about same, widely construed, for one year. This topic ban is consecutive with any editing ban." A wide construction of Eastern Europe suggests that all reasonable interpretations of the term would be used, and according to our own Eastern Europe article, there are several competing definitions, many of which include some combination of Bulgaria Georgia, Armenia, and Romania, especially the Eastern Europe as Eastern Bloc definition. The diffs cited above run from February to May of this year. It is my conclusion that there has been a clear violation of the topic ban, and Biruitorul knew, or should have known he was violating the topic ban. Based on the length of the violation, I am leaning towards a 1 week block, and would like to hear from Biruitorul on this matter quickly.--Tznkai (talk) 21:10, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Most of the diffs in the list above are uncontroversial cleanup edits, such as removing spam ([19], the majority are in fact a series removing this one link), or removing misplaced opinion pieces [20]. With such edits, I personally don't care if they fall under the letter of the law; I just couldn't be bothered enforcing a ban on those. What might be more problematic is content edits like this [21], regarding the relations between Ion Antonescu and the Iron Guards, something that likely has some potentially contentious ideological import. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:09, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Note concerning the Ion Antonescu edit: what Biruitorul did there was not a contentious ideological import under any definition. He effectively reverted an edit which had several manifest problems, only one of which touched the Antonescu-Iron Guard relationship. Before the diff, another editor had manipulated sourced content in various (good-faithed) ways, including by claiming youtube as reference for the relationship in question, by adding a Jewish wife that Antonescu only had in conspiracy theories started by his adversaries in the same far right pool (knowing that many nonpolitical but non-attentive readers will take at face value), and by replacing commas in numbers with dots (because he simply was not aware of the differences between the Anglo-Saxon and continental systems). The edits in question did degrade the article as Biruitorul's edit summary notes, and no political spin on his part can be deduced from that. Whether or not one is right to perform such edits under a topic ban, I'd argue that they too fall under your (Future Perfect's) definition of "uncontroversial cleanup edits". Dahn (talk) 21:36, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- I disagree, at least in this case. Some topic bans are wide because they are trying to totally evict an editor from a topic area, because their judgment is suspect, or their presence is inherently disruptive. The desired attitude and behavior is for topic banned editors to realize that anything that occurs within those articles is no longer their problem, and should be ignored.--Tznkai (talk) 21:13, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with your assessment and the proposed block. Taking into account the number and duration of the ban violations, I also suggest restarting of the one year topic ban from now, under the discretionary sanctions provision of the Digwuren decision. Sandstein 21:25, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Hangon, Biruitorul had previously requested an ArbCom clarification, and the Committee expressed some flexibility. --Martin (talk) 00:50, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'm flattered to see my edits are being so closely monitored! (I suppose WP:STALK doesn't apply against me.) Allow me to attempt to justify them. Edits 2, 4-12 and 16 do indeed fall under the general vandalism/spam exception ArbCom recognized and that Martin pointed out. Regarding edits 14 and 15, I did not know Armenia and Georgia were in Eastern Europe; I thought they were in the Caucasus. Regarding edits 1, 3, 13 and 17: well, they're a grayer area, but they're not really substantive, more undoing edits by generally inexperienced editors, and the only goal was to stop the articles from deterioration. I suppose undoing the fabrication of data counts as a substantive edit, but one can't say it doesn't improve the encyclopedia either. (And no, I'm not invoking IAR as a blanket excuse to stray outside the ban, just as a way of undoing immediate and obvious damage.) Like I've told the Committee, there are numerous articles only I care about, and it'd be a shame to keep them up in damaged form for months on end.
- If those gray-area edits did indeed manifestly breach the topic ban in the view of the reviewing enforcer, I sincerely apologize for my efforts there, and I will henceforth stick to truly obvious cases of spam and vandalism, rather than using my judgment as to what constitutes more subtle damage to the project. - Biruitorul Talk 02:06, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, and one other point. "Biruitorul has been ignoring the topic ban since January 2010... blatantly ignoring his topic ban since January" — really?? I January I reverted vandalism: [22], [23], [24], [25], [26], [27], [28], [29]. In February I wasn't here much. In March, I reverted more vandalism: [30], [31]. In April, more of the same: [32], [33], [34], [35], [36], [37], [38]. The May stuff is pointed out above. So in sum: no, I have not been "ignoring the topic ban since January 2010"; I would ask Sandstein to take a closer look at my record before threatening to add four months to an ignominious topic ban against someone who, Tznkai should know (since we haven't really interacted in the past), was never suspected of poor judgment while active in the EE area, and was never disruptive either — certainly not to the extent that the productive contributor I was needed to be banished from the area completely. (I'm not saying this out of vanity; several of the individuals who have commented on this thread could attest to that.)
- Anyway, I've apologized; I've shown there's a plausible defense for my edits; and I've stated I'll be more careful in the future. Can we now close the book on this chapter? - Biruitorul Talk 02:57, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- I am skeptical of any line of reasoning that asks us to block, or not block, based on judging whether or not the edit was substantively helpful to the encylopedia or not. A topic ban is a topic ban. That having been said, Biruitorul did in fact go to ArbCom for clarification, and what was stated was "...editing policies and restrictions inherently include an exception for obvious vandalism, blatant BLP violations, and clear cut copyright violations." (emphasis mine) and "but be smart about, save yourself the potential trouble and report to the appropriate forum."
- The vandalism policy specifically lists spam as a type of vandalism, and I am willing to assume, barring evidence to the contrary, that the links removed are in fact spam, or could be reasonably construed as such. Likewise however, Biruitorul would have been well to at least ask for help via an appropriate forum (A wikiproject, any one of half dozen different noticeboards) for someone else to take care of it, out of prudence alone.
- Excluding spam removal I find the following diffs still troubling: this edit to Forced labour camps in Communist Bulgaria, this edit to Demographics of Romania, this edit to Armenians in Samtskhe-Javakheti, and more importantly its edit summary and this edit to Ion Atonescu. While I do not disagree with the substance of any of these edits, they do not fall within the vandalism exemption. Of these diffs, 1 concerns Bulgaria, 2 concern Romanians, and 1 concerning Armenians within Georgia. A review of the edit history confirms that the first three articles had very little editor activity outside of Biruitorul and one or two other users, presumably the problematic ones (s)he was worried about. [[Ion Atonescu on the other hand, currently has 60 watchers, and a decently active editor history, so there is no reason why Biruitorul could not have waited for someone else to take care of it.
- I believe, on balance that Biruitorul has violated the topic ban, but with considerably less severity than previously thought. The most reasonable interpretation of Eastern Europe, broadly construed, covers all of the countries and articles at issue here. I am somewhat sympathetic to the problem where there are edits that need to be made, and no one else is making them. There are ways to work around that, however cumbersome it is to ask for help and this is a collaborative project, we should get into the habit of asking for help. However, Biruitorul had, and continues to have the option to to asking for an amendment to the case - a request I would be inclined to support if properly limited.
- It remains however, to decide what must be done. The topic ban has been breached, and it seems to me, that on balance some sort of response is justified. I am unsure exactly what the best response is, so I'd like input on that matter.--Tznkai (talk) 03:02, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Tznkai, I appreciate your measured response, and have a few points in reply:
- 1) I truly was operating under the assumption that Eastern Europe means the countries in red on this map, plus the Baltics and the former Yugoslavia. I honestly never thought of Georgia and Armenia as being in any continent but Asia, as they are south of the Caucasus Mountains.
- 2) Regarding the Ion Antonescu article, I have two things to say. First, it did sit unchanged for 28 hours. I did wait for someone else to come in. And second, I did then feel obliged to intervene because, although the modifications may have been in good faith, they were not only in poor English (seen by some 300 people a day), but they also repeated the rumor that he was married to a Jewish woman, which has been used on the Internet to discount his participation in the Holocaust. ("He was married to a Jew, so it's impossible he could have killed so many of them.") I really did not want too many readers exposed to that fabrication.
- 3) Regarding this edit to Demographic history of Romania, not only did my edit undo months of degradation, it probably undid vandalism as well. Not only vandalism, but subtle vandalism — the kind that changes numbers which no one then notices. I assumed I could undo IP vandalism.
- 4) Finally, about Bulgaria. Well, what can I say? It's a five-day-old account I was dealing with, one that has already done a fair share of edit-warring, and I thought it would be unwise to let his rather POV-ed edit stand for another eight months. Particularly when no one else seems to be looking at the article. And really, there was nothing very substantive to my edit, just a footnote added to satisfy him.
- About the noticeboards: true, that's an option, but I assumed talking about EE subjects there isn't allowed for me. And about the appeal to ArbCom: well, I did send them an e-mail in January talking about how content is suffering, and it's true they urged me to appeal, but I guess I assumed an appeal would be futile. Not that I took it as an excuse to "blatantly" ignore the ban: on the contrary, I've been quite scrupulous about it, and there are many, many articles I've wanted to improve but didn't because ArbCom in its wisdom decided not to allow that. Believe me, I've conditioned myself to stay away from the EE area except for the narrow parameters allowed by the Committee. However, like I've said, if I've taken one or two liberties, I will be much more careful in the future. Given this promise, given that "blocks are used to prevent damage or disruption to Wikipedia, not to punish users", and given that I neither intend to perform gray-area edits like those that started this thread, nor to in any way damage or disrupt the project (which I do care deeply about, in spite of everything), I do hope we can move on. - Biruitorul Talk 03:56, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
And if I could add one more quick point, I find this edit summary ("sigh, add yet another topic ban breach by eeml'er") to be extremely incivil. A lot of bad blood has been created around this topic area (I, personally, was not responsible for that — I've barely had any interaction with the user filing this complaint), and it would be great if we could at least treat each other with a minimum level of decency in our public interactions. I'm not simply "eeml'er", I'm someone who's worked hard on this project for four years, who's used over 99.9% of his nearly 65,000 edits for constructive purposes, and who would appreciate my pride and dignity being respected, as called for by official policy. How about simply "add complaint"? - Biruitorul Talk 06:21, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- I am unimpressed by Biruitorul's statement in his defense. A topic ban means "you are forbidden to edit", period, no matter whether your edits are good or bad. A "widely construed" topic ban most evidently includes all countries that fit any accepted definition of Eastern Europe, that is, it includes all former Eastern Bloc countries. Even assuming reverts of obvious vandalism are exempt, most edits at issue here are not reverts of obvious vandalism (that would be stuff like page blanking, or adding crude expletives to the article). The evidence shows that Biruitorul has in essence decided to ignore his topic ban wheever it suits him (for instance,
even after this request for enforcement[edited: two days ago], he reverted Forced labour camps in Communist Bulgaria and reverted Cluj-Napoca). Absent admin objections, I will implement the sanction I proposed above (1 week block, reset of topic ban). Sandstein 06:42, 6 May 2010 (UTC)- Sandstein, I'm really not trying to quibble on this point, but see Eastern Bloc: I can see that Russia, the Baltics, Belarus, Ukraine and Moldova are in Eastern Europe; I cannot see that the Central Asian republics or the Caucasus republics belong to that region. Relatively few definitions place Armenia and Georgia in Eastern Europe, and that is a fact.
- Moreover, this request had not been made when I made those reverts, which I have both attempted to justify and pledged to avoid in the future. As you can see, the second of those was made at 20:39 on 4 May, and the report was made at 20:57 on 5 May.
- Finally, regarding the claim that I "in essence decided to ignore his topic ban wheever it suits him", this is absolutely false! Have I written substantively on my beloved cathedrals, towns, parks, rivers, politicians, writers, revolutionaries and the like? No. I have scrupulously tried to confine myself to a very narrow exception allowed. Perhaps it would be best to cease altogether, but one cannot simply aver that I'm "ignoring" the ban. - Biruitorul Talk 11:54, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- You are correct about the dating. I've amended my comment above. This does not change my assessment, though. The status of Central Asia and the Caucasus is not of great importance here since most diffs submitted as evidence concern Romania, which is a former Eastern Bloc country. As noted above, all or most of the diffs given in the evidence are not covered by the sole exception to your block ("obvious vandalism"). Sandstein 12:18, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- All I can say is I thought I could make those edits. I now see I was mistaken, but note two things. First, I have been very careful to avoid substantive edits that could not be seen as allowable. Second, given that, and given my clear intention of abiding by the ban (if not heretofore to the letter of the law), I would note that I could very easily have evaded being identified. (Routine edits of that sort don't tend to raise red flags.) That I didn't, and that I chose to make those edits openly under my sole account, I think shows a misinterpretation on my part, but an honest one, without pernicious intent. I believe this, together with my pledge to be much more careful in the future, should be taken into account before further indignity is heaped upon me. Blocks should be for ongoing disruption, not good-faith mistakes that will not be repeated. - Biruitorul Talk 14:54, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- You are correct about the dating. I've amended my comment above. This does not change my assessment, though. The status of Central Asia and the Caucasus is not of great importance here since most diffs submitted as evidence concern Romania, which is a former Eastern Bloc country. As noted above, all or most of the diffs given in the evidence are not covered by the sole exception to your block ("obvious vandalism"). Sandstein 12:18, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- I will point out that there was this edit which I did not include in the report, as it was clearly reverting vandalism, and even if there are admins who would believe that they shouldn't even be doing such edits, I support their technical breach of the topic ban for such edits, and wouldn't even attempt to include such edits in a report of a topic ban violation. However, the rest of the edits are clearly judgement call edits, and are regarded as being violations of topic bans - that is in fact the point of topic bans. A note on the spam links removed; they are not all the same links which have been removed, but are different links to different interviews with the subjects of the articles, conducted and published by what appears to be a Romanian business oriented publication. It could very well be a valid external link to place in an article, and that is a judgement call that editors who are not under a topic ban should be making. Hope this clarifies somewhat why I have brought this here in the first place. --Russavia I'm chanting as we speak 08:20, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm not going to close this with a decision, but I'll say that I for one will not impose sanctions here, and would recommend the same to other admins – although evidently I couldn't stop them from applying the letter of the law if they insist. However, the rule of "preventative, not punitive" does apply to AE sanctions too, and given Biruitorul's latest statement above, and the overall positive nature of the edits (on which I fully trust Dahn's judgment), I really don't see what good a block would achieve. The fact that Biruitorul made these edits over a substantial period of time has been cited above as an aggravating factor. To my mind, it is the opposite: if he could make such edits for such a long time, without anybody raising objections, this just goes to show how non-disruptive they were, and the longer he did the more he had reasons to believe in good faith that it was allowed. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:42, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- This discussion is threatening to run away from us very quickly, so if I could refocus our attention? The most relevant factors to my mind are, some ambiguity in the topic ban, a disagreement about what "obvious vandalism" is, and general policy preferences on blocking. When topic bans are "broadly construed" I think that means all ambiguity goes towards violation - not the way around. As for what "obvious vandalism" is, we have no solid definition, but spam is still vandalism, and it may well be sufficiently obvious to anyone who can read the appropriate languages. I am not entirely a fan of the vandalism exemption existing at all because of the problems it causes in enforcement but it was asked for properly and granted, and it isn't our job to override the committee's prerogative on this point. I have no intention of hamstringing the arbitration process, or the seldom used clarifications.
- Between the proposal for a week and no sanctions at all, I don't think either is particularly appealing, or likely to be productive in any useful way. What I'd prefer here is a a deferred 5 day block, on the condition of no further violations in the meantime, as well as any 10 items on the backlog. Alternatively, Biruitorul could create a proposal that would allow Biruitorul to monitor low activity pages but allow others to fix them.--Tznkai (talk) 19:40, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Can one please clarify that if Biruitorul would like to create a proposal should he not do so at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Amendment? As I stated above, the removal of external links which could in all likelihood give further information may be valid for inclusion, and are not necessarily spam as has been claimed. Surely, it is not for a topic banned editor to be making such judgement calls? Or is it? --Russavia I'm chanting as we speak 20:23, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Before someone other than myself clarifies this, let me just note that an IP who added 15 external links to the same commercial site within a period of two hours certainly struck me as spammy. Twice, it even caused alarm for an anti-spam bot. - Biruitorul Talk 21:43, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Me too. In fact, I have to wonder why a bot didn't revert it by default (my edit summary was in expectation of that). Dahn (talk) 22:07, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Before someone other than myself clarifies this, let me just note that an IP who added 15 external links to the same commercial site within a period of two hours certainly struck me as spammy. Twice, it even caused alarm for an anti-spam bot. - Biruitorul Talk 21:43, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Can one please clarify that if Biruitorul would like to create a proposal should he not do so at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Amendment? As I stated above, the removal of external links which could in all likelihood give further information may be valid for inclusion, and are not necessarily spam as has been claimed. Surely, it is not for a topic banned editor to be making such judgement calls? Or is it? --Russavia I'm chanting as we speak 20:23, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Tznkai, I know you like Latin phrases, and I think an important question is: was I in a state of mens rea at the time of the questionable edits? In other words, did I knowingly and intentionally set out to violate the topic ban? The answer is no, absolutely not. I thought, wrongly, that what I did was permissible, and of course this has served as a dramatic alarm bell which will prevent such mishaps in the future. Another point I'd like to raise is the paucity of controversial edits: fewer than half a dozen over the course of four months, and those few potentially justifiable, hardly constitutes a crime spree. And I'd like to introduce a new piece of evidence in my defense, if I may. On my computer hard drive, I have a list of articles I plan to modify for the better once this utterly pointless topic ban is lifted. Let me give a few examples:
- Zoltan Teszari will be moved to Zoltán Teszári, the spelling of his name with the proper diacritics.
- The Romanian Church United with Rome,Greek-Catholic from Boian will be moved to some less horrid title, and possibly nominated for deletion.
- At Alina Puscau, the link to [[Romanian]] (which leads nowhere) will be changed to [[Romania]]n (the correct link).
- At Template:Speaker Chamber of Deputies Romania and Template:Chairman Senate Romania, I shall either add the words "since 1990" or add in missing officeholders from prior to 1990.
- At Sergiu Natra (written by his son), I shall at least remove the blue color.
- At Ljubljana#Demographics, I shall change 276.091 to 276,091.
- The point is this: there are many things I have seen that need fixing, but since they in no way to my mind constitute vandalism, I have not done so. That I thought my edits were a form of undoing vandalism I now see was in error, but it was by no means an intentional defiance of the topic ban.
- So do give me a strong warning — after this episode, I've learned a very clear lesson. Do assign me backlog-cleanup tasks. Do monitor my edits if you wish. Do know that I shall be going to ArbCom to request further clarifications, and working much more closely within the parameters they set, always erring on the side of caution. But also, do keep in mind that I never intended to ignore the topic ban and I think very carefully before I edit — I shall be doing so even more stringently from now on. Given these facts, and given there is zero further possibility of trouble from me (trust me, I don't enjoy being hauled before this body), I would submit that a block is not warranted. - Biruitorul Talk 21:43, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Tznkai, I know you like Latin phrases, and I think an important question is: was I in a state of mens rea at the time of the questionable edits? In other words, did I knowingly and intentionally set out to violate the topic ban? The answer is no, absolutely not. I thought, wrongly, that what I did was permissible, and of course this has served as a dramatic alarm bell which will prevent such mishaps in the future. Another point I'd like to raise is the paucity of controversial edits: fewer than half a dozen over the course of four months, and those few potentially justifiable, hardly constitutes a crime spree. And I'd like to introduce a new piece of evidence in my defense, if I may. On my computer hard drive, I have a list of articles I plan to modify for the better once this utterly pointless topic ban is lifted. Let me give a few examples:
- The link by Dahn is especially telling. Note the edit summary....maybe this is spam, but let someone else be the judge of that. If a non-topic banned editor is leaving it up to someone else to be the judge of, I fail to see why a topic-banned editor thinks they are able to make that judgement call. Biruitorul knew he was topic banned, and as a member of the WP:EEML, he was privvy to the big party on the list when I was topic banned (he made comments on it himself in the emails), so he would have known what a broadly construed topic ban entailed, so there is no reason to buy into the "I didn't think" routine that is being put here. I think it is about time that editors are made to take responsibility for their edits, and the time is about now. --Russavia I'm chanting as we speak 23:26, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Biruitorul
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators and is not to be used to conduct discusson or debate. Comments by non-admins, and any discussion or debate will be moved to the section above.
Pmanderson
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Pmanderson
- User requesting enforcement
- Tony (talk) 04:31, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Pmanderson (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy that this user violated
- Wikipedia:RFAR/DDL#Pmanderson topic banned - The original prohibition on editing style pages and talk pages was lifted, then reimposed and broadened after a few weeks because of bad behaviour.
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- !Voting in an RfC on a MoS talk page about a proposal to merge several outlying MoS pages into an existing MoS page.
- Associated incivilities at WT:Words to watch -
- Refers to User:Gnevin as a "bully", in addition inferring that other editors on the page are bullies.
- Refers to MoS as "an illiterate disaster area"; Calls for sanctions for anyone who supports the merger; "Spotty reception"; "a falsehood",
- Refers to other editors at WP:WTW as "a aquadron (sic) of bullies".
- undid and edit at WP:PEACOCK under guise of reverting vandalism
- further comment at WP:WTW
- further comment at WP:WTW
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- Previous WP:AE report.
- Warned here, and has responded here that he believes his "restriction has lapsed". I think the user knows very well that the ArbCom restriction was for 12 months (i.e., until 14 June 2010).
- Enforcement action requested (block, topic ban or other sanction)
- Extension of the restriction for a further six months, to expire on 14 December 2010 contingent on good behaviour during the remainder of the restricted period. Strike-through of the edits in question at WT:Words to watch.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- The user has breached the ArbCom restriction. Furthermore, he has shown in the breaching that he is incapable of behaving according to WP:CIVIL, on the MoS pages and elsewhere, using a strategy of inflammatory attacks on editors and on the MoS itself. I note a long history of blocks for edit-warring, including one during the restricted period, on 15 December 2009, although rescinded on the promise to stay away from the article in question.
I note also that, oddly, rollback tools were granted on 4 January, just a few weeks after that event.[My error: granted a year earlier—Tony1] (Please refer to previous WP:AE report). - Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- diff.
Discussion concerning Pmanderson
Statement by Pmanderson
I followed an invitation to comment from WT:NOR, which has nothing to do with MOS, on an issue concerning three pages which have nothing to do with MOS, attempting to merge them into a MOS page. When I did so, I did not realize the target was a MOS page, I also thought that the restriction had lapsed (I'm not counting the days until I can continue with MOS, which is the intent of the restriction); but I will abide by any decision relating to WT:Words to watch.
However, I hope the decision will be to leave things alone. The restriction arises from a date-delinking case; this is a completely different issue.
This complaint is an abuse of process, attempting to Wiki-lawyer a loosely phrased reestriction, which will expire before long, into an area it was never intended to cover; similarly, the merge proposal is an attempt to bull through a change which has no consensus, and which will have the effect of expanding MOS.
Both of these flaws are endemic to MOS's way of conduct and to its regulars; is Tony's real objection to somebody pointing out this creeping imperialism? Or is it being reminded that MOS is widely (and justly) despised outside its Mutual Admiration Society? (Which is why I will not discuss the "guideline" if this merge passes; I will simply ignore it.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:02, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- I observe that those calling for extended sanctions and removal of my comments are the other participants in the date-delinking case (who were also sanctioned); this is a small clique, attempting to remove the traces that people disagree with them.
- The claims of idyllic harmony before I arrived are false: there was already a protest, led by PBS, against participants in the RfC presuming to declare it closed (after only a few days) and against wide dispute. In fact, this appears to be why Slim Virgin asked for outside voices in the first place. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:52, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- You observe incorrectly. I am calling for the removal of your comments and I was not sanctioned in the date-delinking case. HWV258. 22:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- Really? How did ArbCom miss my opposite number? I may propose an amendment. ;-> Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:06, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- They didn't "miss" anything. (Unlike yourself) there's a good reason why I didn't receive sanctions. HWV258. 01:13, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- Really? How did ArbCom miss my opposite number? I may propose an amendment. ;-> Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:06, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- As much as you may want to make this look like some sort of 'Get Mandy' agenda, I suggest that the problem is little bit closer to home. At issue, IMHO, is your unrelenting dissing of others' views almost wherever you go, or so it seems. Ohconfucius ¡digame! 01:37, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- I don't have to make this look like anything; I have provided diffs, and let others see what they look like. The way to make it look different is to act differently. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:48, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
- That would include not accusing others of lies and falsehoods would it? HWV258. 06:50, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
- I don't have to make this look like anything; I have provided diffs, and let others see what they look like. The way to make it look different is to act differently. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:48, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
- You observe incorrectly. I am calling for the removal of your comments and I was not sanctioned in the date-delinking case. HWV258. 22:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Tony has been attempting to gather together all my past actions; the result has described as Wikilawyering by third parties as well as myself. This continued effort to silence an inconvenient voice is really deplorable. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:10, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- This removal, by Gnevin (the proposer of this RfC) is at least indicative of the true purpose of this complaint. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:11, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
To AGK: I have no intention of using this matter to recall any of the acting admins, if that simplifies matters. For what it's worth, I have not commented at WT:Words to Watch, and don't intend to do so either; this note on Carcharoth's talk page suggests that the matter has been settled, and that my intervention has been helpful. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:01, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Comment by Greg L
What I just read, the widened restriction, is as follows:
“ | …restriction re-widened to include the pages and talk pages of all MOS and style guidelines due to continuing disruption. | ” |
Quoting PMAnderson: …which have nothing to do with MOS… perhaps. It is, however, quite clearly “style guidelines”. Moreover, we once again seem to be seeing “continuing disruption”, which is what happens if one accuses an experienced editor who has been around since 2005 with “vandalism” over a style guide issue (Wikipedia:Avoid peacock terms) when it is quite clear that the edit PMAnderson reverted was over a legitimate difference in opinion and couldn’t properly be regarded as vandalism by any stretch of the imagination.
The reason for the topic ban on PMAnderson was to take a source of both the fuel and the spark from venues where debate was ongoing that were hot-button topics for him. The ban was widened because the scope of topics that were obviously hot-button issues proved wider than first thought.
As for PMAnderson’s protestation This complaint is an abuse of process, attempting to Wiki-lawyer a loosely phrased reestriction… I find he doth protest too much. The extended topic ban (“the pages and talk pages of all MOS and style guidelines”) is sufficiently clear. The motives and reasoning underlying the restrictions are even more clear.
As to the entire last paragraph of PMAnderson’s statement… (endemic flaws, the “regulars” on MOS, “creeping imperialism”), I frankly don’t know how to respond to that. Greg L (talk) 06:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- I have a suggestion: he (and others) could stop attempting to take over policy pages, acclaiming seriously disputed proposals as consensus, and generally conduct themselves in accordance with policy. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:58, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- Quoting PMAnderson: … conduct themselves in accordance with policy. Interesting. Tony has no restrictions on his editing style guides and MOS-related pages and talk pages; it is OK for him to be there. Tony has one single block to his record and that was an accident the blocking admin took back three hours later. Tony, who is an experienced wikipedian, has a long record of knowing how to contribute in a collaborative writing environment without being uncivil and disruptive and engaging in incessant editwarring.
Tony also takes care, when coming to venues like this, to use the truth and nothing but the truth in his posts. I find it unfortunate and telling when PMAnderson writes I did not realize the target was a MOS page when it was so easy for the inviting editor to come here (as she later did) to point out that her open invitation began with There's a proposal to merge several pages as part of a project to streamline the MoS. It appears to me that PMAnderson brings both the fuel and the spark to the style-guide coal mines and we simply don’t need that. Greg L (talk) 15:53, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- Quoting PMAnderson: … conduct themselves in accordance with policy. Interesting. Tony has no restrictions on his editing style guides and MOS-related pages and talk pages; it is OK for him to be there. Tony has one single block to his record and that was an accident the blocking admin took back three hours later. Tony, who is an experienced wikipedian, has a long record of knowing how to contribute in a collaborative writing environment without being uncivil and disruptive and engaging in incessant editwarring.
Comments by Ohconfucius
I do not mind a sincere and civil vote by Pma, and I think people would have overlooked a genuine 'technical violation'. However, it goes way beyond that: he charges into a discussion – and on-going rewriting work – which has been going on in a very cordial, collegial and enthusiastic manner for some weeks, without apparently having read through the exchanges, and then proceeds to insult those who have given their hard work to consolidate the mess which resulted from gradual evolution. I find the repeated pattern of unprovoked denigration of others and dissing of their opinions unacceptable. Even here (above), his rhetoric is belligerent, and I note his vitriolic attack ("creeping imperialism") of Tony for filing this case. His anger-management does not seem to have improved a lot, if at all, since the dates case.
He may choose to forget that the broadening of the arbcom restriction was a result of previous disruption; to say it is "loosely phrased reestriction" (sic) is stretching credulity to the extreme - the wording is, I believe, crystal clear. There seems to be a serious disconnect between his statement that he wasn't aware it was a Style guideline, and his assertion that editing restrictions placed upon him had lapsed already. This version is the one which Pmanderson voted on. The very prominent {{style-guideline}} tag at the top of the page is difficult to miss. The MOS tag has similarly existed on WP:PEACOCK since at least the end of 2007.
In view of the zero improvement in his behaviour, I believe a six-month extension to the topic ban to be entirely appropriate, to prevent further disruption. Ohconfucius ¡digame! 06:41, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- But all was not harmony before I arrived; there was already a protest, led by PBS, against participants in the RfC presuming to declare it closed (after only a few days and against wide dispute) - and I see it continues without me. In fact, this appears to be why Slim Virgin asked for outside voices in the first place. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:55, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- Your participation was notable by its inflammatory nature, and the sooner you admit that, the better. Ohconfucius ¡digame! 01:28, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Pmanderson
- When it is confirmed that Pmanderson has transgressed his sanctions, I would request that all of his comments at Wikipedia talk:Words to watch are removed. To not remove his comments makes a mockery of the arbitration process. HWV258. 06:08, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Comment by Hesperian
Pmanderson provides a reasonable explanation for what is only a technical violation, if a violation at all. And his comments, if read in context, are only barely objectionable. Hesperian 09:06, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- What ever about his claim that the edits at W2W where accidental When I did so, I did not realize the target was a MOS page. This edit can not claim such a defence Gnevin (talk) 10:59, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for your unsolicited support. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:13, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Comment by SlimVirgin
Just a point about Pmanderson's statement that he was responding to a request for comment posted on WT:NOR, and didn't realize it was connected to the MoS. I was the one who posted that request, and it's clearly connected to the MoS. I wrote:
Wikipedia talk:Words to watch#RFC. There's a proposal to merge several pages as part of a project to streamline the MoS. One part of the proposal is to merge Words to avoid, Avoid peacock terms, Avoid weasel words, and Avoid neologisms into a new page, Words to watch (W2W). Fresh input would be appreciated at the RfC. [39]
SlimVirgin talk contribs 12:50, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Comment by Tony1
- WRT Sandstein's and Shell's posts below, can you please let me know when the matter has been decided, and whether it's up to me to re-file this at ArbCom as an application for amendment (or if ANI, which part of ANI)? Tony (talk) 14:05, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Pmanderson
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
By editing Wikipedia talk:Words to watch and Wikipedia:Avoid peacock terms, which are labeled as being part of WP:MOS, Pmanderson has violated the extension of his topic ban to "the pages and talk pages of all MOS and style guidelines" by Shell Kinney (talk · contribs), an arbitrator. However, I'm not sure abount the binding nature (and hence the enforceability) of this extension, because the Arbitration Committee's decision does not authorize discretionary sanctions by administrators (which could include such a ban extension) and nothing indicates that the ban extension is the result of a (public or non-public) vote of the Committee, either in the course of the original case or an amendment motion. For this reason, I am asking Shell Kinney to clarify whether his ban extension was made in the exercise of the Arbitration Committee's binding dispute resolution authority.
- If Shell Kinney indicates that it was, I intend to enforce it according to the decision's enforcement provision; the conceivable question about whether a ban extension decided by an individual arbitrator is ultra vires would then be for the Committee itself (or Jimbo Wales) to review if they are seized by any appeal. This is because we as editors are not authorized to review whether an arbitral action is in conformity with the arbitration policy.
- If Shell Kinney indicates that it was not, the ban extension is void and this request should be dismissed. Sandstein 16:57, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- Shell did not become an arbitrator until the start of this year, so I can't see how a sanction she imposed in 2009 could possibly be under arbcom's authority. I do have concerns about Sandstein's proposed action, though. As a procedural matter, his proposal means that we would be overturning Shell's enforcement action, without either consensus or authorization from the committee. It could be argued that the action was not taken "pursuant to the terms of an active arbitration remedy", but this potential is quite troubling. As a philosophical matter, sanctions normally stay in force until they are successfully appealed. We should discourage users from testing their sanctions in the hope that they would be found invalid. No appeal has ever been made in this case, and I'm almost minded to think that to the extent there are any objections to Shell's sanction, they have been forfeited. I'm not sure if we should reach, nostra sponte, an issue that no one in this request addressed. Tim Song (talk) 22:04, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- I see the point you are making, and I agree that sanctions stay in force until they are successfully appealed. In this case, though, we are not overturning an existing sanction (such as an arbitration enforcement block), but we are concluding that there is no arbitration-based sanction that could be enforced, in particular because the (then-)administrator who extended the ban does not appear to argue that he did so under ArbCom authority. At any rate, sinply declining to enforce a decision (as I propose we do here) is not equivalent to explicitly overturning that decision, because even if we who participate in this discussion decline to enforce the decision, nothing precludes other administrators (or Shell Kinney himself) from enforcing the decision themselves if they believe that is the right thing to do.
- You are also right that no party has raised the issue of enforceability, but the absence of a complaint does not make the decision enforceable, and if we ourselves were to claim arbitral authority to enforce a non-arbitral decision, we would ourselves be misusing our administrator tools. We should, in such cases, apply the maxim of iura novit curia. Sandstein 10:13, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- But your proposal is not to simply decline to enforce - it is to declare Shell's action void. I fail to see how declaring that a sanction imposed by another administrator to be void is not overturning that decision. And while we are citing Latin phrases, my view is that the question of the validity of the sanction as an arbitration sanction, while legitimate in an appeal, is res iudicata in an enforcement request and generally not subject to collateral attack - that is, for the purposes of enforcing it, it suffices that the sanction sought to be enforced is, on its face, designated as an arbitration enforcement sanction, and imposed and recorded as such by an administrator - and I'm especially not inclined to reach a question which no one has raised, to disturb a sanction that has remained in place for a long time. Vigilantibus non dormientibus aequitas subvenit. Regardless, this is not a good place for a meta-discussion. Assuming that we should treat this as an appeal of the sanction imposed, I agree that it appears to be unauthorized by the Committee, and on that basis would agree to lift the sanction. If necessary, community sanctions can be proposed at AN/ANI, per Tznkai. Tim Song (talk) 23:42, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
- No Latin legalese please. This is arbitration enforcement, not moot court.--Tznkai (talk) 23:45, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
- But your proposal is not to simply decline to enforce - it is to declare Shell's action void. I fail to see how declaring that a sanction imposed by another administrator to be void is not overturning that decision. And while we are citing Latin phrases, my view is that the question of the validity of the sanction as an arbitration sanction, while legitimate in an appeal, is res iudicata in an enforcement request and generally not subject to collateral attack - that is, for the purposes of enforcing it, it suffices that the sanction sought to be enforced is, on its face, designated as an arbitration enforcement sanction, and imposed and recorded as such by an administrator - and I'm especially not inclined to reach a question which no one has raised, to disturb a sanction that has remained in place for a long time. Vigilantibus non dormientibus aequitas subvenit. Regardless, this is not a good place for a meta-discussion. Assuming that we should treat this as an appeal of the sanction imposed, I agree that it appears to be unauthorized by the Committee, and on that basis would agree to lift the sanction. If necessary, community sanctions can be proposed at AN/ANI, per Tznkai. Tim Song (talk) 23:42, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
- Comment: When the ban remedies were moderated in August 2009, the three amendments made to Pmanderson's and others' topic bans explicitly adjusted the restriction from "'style and editing guidelines' (or similar wording)" to "style and editing guidelines relating to the linking or unlinking of dates". The intent of those amendments seem quite clear: only edits to MoS pages relating to date linking are to be sanctioned. Per Sanstein, in the absence of a provision for administrators to re-broaden the topic bans, this request does not seem actionable. Moreover, I am not seeing why Pmanderson's actions are at all of concern or at all might re-inflame the date delinking dispute. AGK 23:24, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- I chose to reset the ban to its original form (full text of close) based on the committee's indication that their motion to tighten the ban (which originally included style guidelines) was conditional on good behavior and would be rewidened if the disruption resumed (See the original motion). On reviewing the AE thread, it was clear that disruption had resumed; after leaving the proposed closure open for more than a day with no objections, I enacted the decision. As a side note, one of the Arbs suggested that the reset to the original ban extend beyond just this one participant. [40] If you disagree that the behavior that caused the rewidening was disruptive, I could see the concern, but to void it at this late date because you think it was procedurally inaccurate seems a bit silly to me. Since there hasn't been a repeat of this type of AE thread for more than 7 months, it seems to have been highly effective in stopping the disruption. Shell babelfish 01:48, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for the explanation. I, too, think that the re-widening of the ban was most likely the appropriate decision on the merits. However, it was not an Arbitration Committee decision, and therefore is not a proper subject of an arbitration enforcement request on this noticeboard, which is dedicated exclusively to enforcing Arbitration Committee decisions (or sanctions issued pursuant to an Arbitration Committee decision). This matters because the community has conferred the authority to make binding dispute resolution decisions, including extensions of any bans, not on individual administrators, but solely on the Arbitration Committee (who alone may in turn delegate it further to administrators). I suggest that in order to make the ban extension enforceable, it should be submitted as a request for amendment as provided for in par. 4 of the motion you refer to ("Any party who believes the Date delinking decision should be further amended may file a new request for amendment.") Sandstein 09:57, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think the solution here is to punt to AN/ANI. Appears to be a standard nasty editing dispute, but I wouldn't be surprised if a successful community sanction could be created.--Tznkai (talk) 22:35, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
- That may well be so, but does not resolve the question about whether Shell Kinney's ban extension should be enforced now or in the future. Since we do not seem to agree about this, only ArbCom can resolve it. I have requested clarification at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification#Request for clarification: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Date delinking. Sandstein 07:14, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- Shell's comment above (As a side note, one of the Arbs suggested that the reset to the original ban extend beyond just this one participant) refers to a comment I made. I'm noting here that I made that comment as an editor, not an arbitrator. Still commenting as an editor, not an arbitrator, I would suggest that rather than be all formal and correct (as Sandstein is being), that an informal approach is tried here: just ask Pmanderson if he recognises that he made a mistake here, and whether he is willing to recognise and abide by Shell's extension? He appears to have said so here, so if Sandstein and Shell discuss this with Pmanderson, this could all be resolved fairly quickly, and anyone disagreeing with what results could file something separately. Carcharoth (talk) 03:06, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- That "all formal and correct" approach is more accurately the "covering our backsides" attitude. When you deal with this stuff regularly, people start to look for ways to have your tools taken away. At least an arbitrator can't be recalled by a disgruntled ex-sanctionee for deviating from the rulebook. Administrators active on AE very much can. AGK 15:47, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Incompleteness theorems
Per Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Carl_Hewitt#Post-case_clarification, I'd like to request semi-protection of Gödel's incompleteness theorems. Numerous IPs have been posting to the talk page recently, which was mildly tendentious but not worth any sort of enforcement action. However, today three IPs have edited the main article to expand on Hewitt's work. The use of numerous IPs matches the description in the section of the arbcom case linked above. The article was recently semiprotected for two weeks on Feb. 15 for the same reason. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:47, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
- Done Semi-protected for 2 weeks. Abecedare (talk) 03:33, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Radeksz
Blocked for 12 hours. |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Radeksz
It should also be mentioned that Wikipedia:EEML#Modified_by_motion allowed Radeksz to edit a narrow number of articles solely to add references and to make such incidental changes as may be necessary to bring the article into compliance with the sources used. This edit in which he is adding material to articles outside of the remit of the motion is probably also against both the motion, and therefore in violation of the topic ban as well? --Russavia I'm chanting as we speak 15:55, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Discussion concerning RadekszStatement by Radeksz
I stand by my comment made at the AFD. I don't think making it violated the topic ban since the article's about a Canadian artist who happens to be of Polish background. I didn't vote or comment on the nature of the AFD but addressed another user's flagrant incivility. Even then, BLP violations are generally excluded from topic bans and this was clearly a BLP violation though it didn't happen on the article itself. Oh and I believe that usage of such terms as "brigadiers" was expressly forbidden during the case.
Note: Offensive portion of Varsovian's comment was removed by another editor with a reprimand [43]. Hence, I removed mine as well [44].radek (talk) 11:19, 30 April 2010 (UTC) Additional clarification: Ever since the topic ban went into effect I haven't even been watching most related articles covered by the topic ban and I certainly had no idea what was going on with the Ryszard Tylman article. I can't even remember if I was aware that it had been nominated for the 3rd time. The only reason I checked in on it this, 4th, time around is because the nominator left a message on my talk. Probably would have been better if he hadn't.radek (talk) 11:34, 30 April 2010 (UTC) Contrary to Russavia, "don't be a dick" is one of the "the foundational principles of the policies and guidelines of the English Wikipedia" [45]. The more extensive elaboration of course is here [46], but it is very common to just refer to "WP:DICK" in discussions. If refererring to "foundational principles of the policies of the English Wikipedia" is considered uncivil, perhaps that should be indicated somewhere, or the name of the policy and the policy page itself should be changed.radek (talk) 12:16, 30 April 2010 (UTC) Comment by M.K.This is Radeksz's strategy of assessing, borderlining and crossing but only so much that he doesnt get negative consequences, then some silence, then some border transgression. The subject of the AfD was caught to be a member of the EEML clan. The EEML clan made travesty of Wikipedia, protecting one another in discussions and attacking their perceived foes, among them Russavia and me. Tymek also tried to evade the topic ban on that article, ending in block. [47] [48] Radeksz was even warned for transgression and "not to pull such stunts again" on the AE board [49] Last but not least, EEML messages reviled that favorite Radeksz tactic, is to pretend “surprised” then caught misbehaving is still employed at full even at this page. M.K. (talk) 10:50, 30 April 2010 (UTC) Comment by Loosmark
Comment by Varsovian
Comments by others about the request concerning RadekszFor the uninitiated: what does Richard Tylman have to do with Eastern Europe, other than his origin?--Tznkai (talk) 09:15, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
We don't stand on precedent around here, and I am not compelled by arguments that rely on them. Those sort of principles only hold fast when we have an underlying political and social structure that justify and support it, like branches of government and professional advocates. I do think it is simple sense that topic bans should only be enforced against parties that knew or should have known they were breaching them. Topic bans are broadly constructed and interpreted when individuals have shown an inability to operate within a content area, either because of the content itself and/or the interpersonal conflicts they have with other editors in that content area. Based on the context of the Richard Tylman article's meta history on Wikipedia as illuminated to me by the discussion above, I agree that Radeksz should have known he was breaching his sanction. Moreover, analysis of the Amendments made by motion indicate that Radeksz had narrow specific exemptions for BLP-related work, not a general one, and that the Richard Tylman article did not fall within them. The degeneration of this AE request indicates that the underlying issues of the EEML-related case have a wide and pernicious reach. Mitigating that, Radeksz has in fact, reverted the offending contributions. This is the sort of behavior desired, the willingness to back off when it becomes clear there is an issue. If there is no objection from another administrator, I will block for 12 hours as arbitration enforcement.--Tznkai (talk) 16:57, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Comment by PantherskinDoesn't look like a big deal, Radeksz didn't even vote in this AfD and even removed his comment. No need to make a mountain out of a molehill. Although given the past history of this article and past AfD it seems natural to assume that this article and the related AfD would fall under the topic ban. But this comment was rather innocuous, and there does not seem to be a pattern of testing the boundaries of the topic ban, at least judging from Radeksz's edit history. Pantherskin (talk) 12:54, 30 April 2010 (UTC) Comment by Dr. DanOne of the concerns that many people had who participated in resolving the EEML matter was that even with the relatively harsh sanctions imposed upon its members this behavior would resume again, or perhaps take a different guise, when the sanctions ended. And if that happened, we'd return to square one. As a target of this group, and as a result of having significant interaction with many of its members I can say that this continual game of "cat and mouse", this continual negative behavior followed by innumerable excuses and obfuscations has a definite pattern. A 12 hour block for this clear violation of the sanctions imposed on Radeksz following the EEML ArbCom is ludicrous and is only setting the stage for future problems. The other day I noticed Sandstein placed an "indefinite" block on users Matthead and Spacecadet. It struck me as excessively harsh. I know of their lingering animosity, and the basis for it. I've had dealings with both of them. If the motivations for those blocks was "enough is enough" and only such a draconian block would help to make peace in the valley, then I understand the rationale behind the blocks. Presumably it had to shock both of them and also set an example of what fate may befall other editors who continue on a path that is considered detrimental to the Wikipedia project. Many of you at this page are aware of this ugly incident that transpired not too long ago involving another EEML member. I believe it was dealt with fairly and properly. Radeksz's activities at the Afd may not be on the same par as those of user Jacurek, but it is significant to note that, 1. He wasn't supposed to be at the Afd in the first place, and 2. his remarks were not constructive, nor meant to be constructive. He obviously couldn't contain himself and had to call Varsovian a "dick", (now explained by him as using a "policy" of Wikipedia to make his point). I respectfully suggest that those who are able to prevent future transgressions of this nature to do so now and demonstrate that you mean business. 12 hours is not even an "ear flick" let alone a "slap on the wrist". Dr. Dan (talk) 15:58, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning Radeksz
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Supreme Deliciousness
Supreme Deliciousness topic banned for thirty days by Tznkai
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Request concerning Supreme Deliciousness
Sanction or remedy that this user violated
SD has a long history of tenatious editing and trying to remove Israeli content or de-emphasize Israeli & Jewish content: His userpage, now deleted, at one point declared strong Anti-Israeli views and belief that Israel should not exist.[59] History of trying to politicize non-political articlesSD was warned and notified of the ARBCOM sanctions on June 27, 2009. These are instances occurring after that date.
Dismisses sources based upon the fact they are from Israel or are written by Israelis and/or Jews.
Advice to other editorsSuggests to other editors that they should undertake “doublespeak” to achieve results that may not be supported by consensus. Tells other editors that they should not “always say what you truly believe, try to reach your goals in another way.” (November 2009) Skirting CfDsTries to skirt CfDs by creating new categories very similar to the one being discussed: [70] and [71] (March - April 2010) Games the systemSD has repeatedly tried to change the names of Mountains in the Golan Heights from Hebrew to Arabic, trying different ways. The first time he wanted to change the names an RfC was opened on the Golan Heights talk page[72] (November 2009). When consensus failed there, he then tried at the individual mountains 1)[73]. (February 2010) 2) [74] (March 2010) When there was no consensus for change on the individual mountains, this article was created (which I suggested, to condense small unsourced articles) but now it appears it will be used as a vehicle to attempt to change the mountain names again[75]. (April 2010) Politicizes non political talk pagesSupreme Deliciousness decided to re-arrange the long-standing Wikiproject listing order in several articles because of his belief that "Syria" should come before Israel on the article talk page[76] and [77]. (April 2010) Arbcom situationsSD’s Anti-Israeli behavior has even come up in unrelated Arbcom cases [78] (October - November 2009)
Ban on articles pertaining to Israel or Jewish content. The length of such ban, being permanent or short term is up to the admin. However I would ask the Admin to keep in mind that SD’s anti-Israeli editing has been a long term problem, but most of the time he has managed to push the envelope just enough so that he flies under the radar. The majority of his edit history is related to trying to de-emphasize or remove Israeli content from articles, with very little in way of actual article expansion or creation.
SD often edits in cooperation with another user, User:Ani medjool, whom I will also be filing a AE case on.
Discussion concerning UserStatement by User:TiamutThere is no problem with a user being anti-Israeli or anti-Palestinian (there are many here of both kinds and we edit alongside each other without huge problems everyday). Its not people's views that are problematic, but their behaviours, if disruptive. I don't see anything disruptive in the work SD did on Mountains in the Golan Heights. I do think its quite silly to edit war over the placement of Syria and Israel wikiprojects (but as there are others edit-warring over this, I don't see why SD should be subject to a topic ban for it). I don't think SD meant to game the system with the category she created, but I can see why it might be interpreted that way. I also don't see how the advice she gae to other users is problematic. We shouldn't all say exactly what we believe here when its not related to article editing - that's called WP:SOAP. I do agree that User:Ani medjool is a highly problematic user (and look forward to seeing the AE report Nsaum75 is going to file on that user, who has serially disrupted the I-P arena for some time now without any serious repurcussions). But I don't think the same is true of SD. She has made some good contributions to this encyclopedia. She's certainly not perfect and sometimes wastes her time on silly or unproductive things, and maybe even soapboxes a little from time to time (no more or less than others), but she generally responds to constructive criticism and has not done anything to undermine the goals of the encylopedia, in my opinion. An NPOV encyclopedia is written by people of all POVs, some of whom may have POVs vastly different than our own. That's not a reason to topic ban them. Yes, its hard to work to bridge such gaps in perspectives, but much better to try, than to eliminate those we deem too far gone. Particularly when they are trying to hear what others are saying to them. Tiamuttalk 15:14, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
"She"? I'm a man. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:03, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
If it is me, then what is this: [82] and who is the one edit warring against consensus? [83][84][85] Why haven't you brought this up? And what is "circumvents three-related RfC" what was decided during those RfCs? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:52, 30 April 2010 (UTC) Statement by Plot SpoilerSupreme exhibits over the top WP:Battleground behavior and the evidence presented shows that Supreme is incapable of WP:NPOV edits when it comes to I/P articles. Creating WP:Soap articles like "Israeli theft of Arab cuisine" and that Israeli has hijacked everything else in Arab culture (hookah, falafel, etc.), regardless of the fact that over 50% of Israel's population is composed of Jews of Middle Eastern origin. Supreme has long exhibited this POV and uncivil behavior and methinks it's time for a topic ban. Seriously. Plot Spoiler (talk) 15:44, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Statement by Supreme DeliciousnessWhat is the sanction or remedy that I have violated? Many of the comments he have brought up and things I have done are comments and things from a long time ago. At the Hookah talkpage, how do you explain this edit [86] IP just removed the word "Palestine" and replaced it with "Israel". Nsaum75 claims that "properly sourced information about Israel and Hummus".. It was about an Israeli guy without any kind of scientific research to back him up, was making up his own mind about what the bible said, basically re-writing the bible and drawing his own conclusion from it. And based on this they wanted to ad to the article that Hummus Is Israeli. And Nsaum75 calls this "properly sourced information about Israel and Hummus". At the falafel article, Nsaum75 kept on adding several Israeli pictures into the article, that is not neutral. If there is anyone that should be sanctioned, its him for keeping on adding exclusively Israeli pictures in as many articles as he can, he show a strong pro-Israel pushing views, this is not neutral. Many of these things he have brought up are content disputes where he or others have an Israeli pov and I a neutral worldview. I am not edit warring at any of these articles and I always talk at the talkpage. About the "Dismisses sources based upon the fact they are from Israel or are written by Israelis and/or Jews." Yes I said they were unreliable for setting the standardized name in English for several reasons, they would of course use the Israeli name: Some of these Israeli sources have for example been written by the Chairman of the Israeli Golan Lobby[87] and Ariel Encyclopedia speaks about Golan as if it was a part of Israel. And several others including an admin have dismissed Israeli sources for setting the standardized name in English by just the fact that they are from Israel: [88][89] "Advice to other editors" Ani Medjool had very strong language, and what I meant about that was that he might get banned if he continues, just like if pro-israeli editors hated Palestinians, but they cant show it cause they would get banned, so I told him that if he feel the way he feels he should be quiet about it. For the sake of the encyclopedia, to avoid unnecessary drama. "Skirting CfDs" This was never "skirting", it was a different category, and I accepted the deletion of it as the majority of people wanted it gone. "Politicizes non political talk pages" How is it neutral to have the Israeli tag first about an area that is by all countries on earth recognized as part of Syria? And how many edits at each article did I do this? 1 time. "Games the system" This is completely BS, if you look at all the neutral comments and sources, you can see that there was greater support for the standardized arabic names, not hebrew, look at the uninvolved comments, how many of these support the hebrew?
Almost all the sources brought up for the Arabic were English, while almost all of them brought up for the hebrew were Israeli and some of them implied Golan as part of Israel, and also an article from the "Jewish Virtual Libray" that was sourced from Wikipedia. And the israeli side just said "no" to the change, so this is how there was no move of the articles. Am I not allowed to open a new RfC now? The reason why the article Mountains in the Golan Heights is locked down now is because user Breein edit warred his own pov into the article, the names right now are hebrew first, because there was allegedly "No consensus" for the change, yet Brein changed the position of the translation to put the hebrew first without any kind of consensus, and its interesting that Nsaum75 do not mention this. Nsaum also claims that "SD's true intent may be to force name changes".. no it is not and I told malik this on his talkpage that I myself had changed to the hebrew first [90] and that I would not change it to the standardized Arabic as the discussion is now:[91] "SD often edits in cooperation" This is a completely baseless attack against me, I edit by myself and with no one else.
Statement by Malik ShabazzIn the interest of brevity I will make only two comments. 1) This week Supreme Deliciousness twice felt the need to rearrange WikiProject banners so Syria came before Israel, in one case participating in a revert war (although he himself made only one revert).[93][94] 2) The above characterization of photos as Israeli is typical. Because of the WP:BATTLE behavior of Supreme Deliciousness and Ani medjool, Falafel has an image gallery in which "Israeli" photos of the food are "balanced" by photos from other countries. See Falafel#Image gallery. (The use of quotation marks indicates the silliness of describing a photograph as having a nationality.) — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 17:55, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning UserPlease keep your comments short, to the point, and restricted only to what an uninvolved administrator needs to know. I am perfectly willing (and able) to apply discretionary sanctions based on behavior on AE alone, and I will get creative.--Tznkai (talk) 17:02, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
A couple of questions: what do you mean by "A comprehensive and good faith proposal for a neutral standard on what order to be submitted for the consideration of The Israel Palestine Collaboration WikiProject" I don't understand what you mean. Also could you please point out precisely what sanction or remedy I have violated, and how I violated it and does this topic ban also include talking about these things at the talkpages? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:00, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Comment - SD is currently under Arbcom restrictions that affects his abilities to change the ethnicity or nationality of people per this decision[95]. nsaum75¡שיחת! 23:40, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Result concerning User
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