Talk:Brandon Teena

Welcome to the talkpage of the Brandon Teena article. Please note the guidelines above and please see Naming conventions and MOS:IDENTITY to understand how Wikipedia addresses identity issues of people outside gender binary roles and identities.

What gender was this person ?

Maybe the story is familiar to Americans, but to others, like me, who know nothing of this story whatsoever (I followed the link via the page for comedian Norm MacDonald) have no idea what gender 'Brandon Teena' or 'Teena Brandon' was ? And consequently the article is really, really confusing as to what the motives of his/her killers was. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.30.197.161 (User ) 07:12, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Brandon Teena identified as male, as the article makes clear.

The article begins by stating that Brandon Teena was a trans man. (Follow the link to read more: "A trans man, transman, trans guy, or FTM is a transgender or transsexual man: a person who was assigned female at birth, but who identifies as male.') The section discussing the murder is also pretty clear. It states 'Nissen and Lotter grabbed Teena and forced him to remove his pants, proving to Tisdel that Teena was anatomically female.' They then raped him. A few days later, Nissen and Lotter murdered Brandon Teena. The section does not go into detail about the murderers' motivations, but the clear implication is that Brandon Teena was murdered because he was anatomically female but identified and lived as a man. Male pronouns are used in the article, in line with MOS:IDENTITY.

Perhaps you are confused about how someone's gender identity can be different from their assigned sex. But the Brandon Teena page is not the right place to explain this - hence the link to the trans man page.

If you have any specific suggestions for improving the page (provided they keep to MOS:IDENTITY), then please do put down an edit request. Happydemic (talk) 14:57, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

So what are you saying? If someone 80 years identifies themself as 5 years old you must change the birthdate accordingly? If someone that is a caucasian identifies as asian you must identify them as asian? That's bollocks, nonsense and an utter lie... Assigned gender is true gender because it exists before its assigned by anyone, like age and ethnicity and even nationality. A coroner never asks the corpse what the corpse believed, the coroner only checks the truth told by the corpse itself and such things that are found by the coroner as age, ethnicity and gender should be the same in both legal documents and biographies about the person at hand for practical reasons of understanding the truth of the person, we don't go around classifying schizophreniacs and otherkin by the characters or species they believe themselves to be... Do we? One thing is being tolerant of homosexuality, another thing is encouraging deception, and transexuality is a form of deception. Undead Herle King (talk) 08:53, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Your opinion and weak example(s) don't matter in this instance (or in any other real situation I suspect). MOS:IDENTITY explains why the pronoun "he" is used in this particular article. In short, Wikipedia chooses to respect the gender the subject identifies/ed as - not what you want or what you think is right. If the usage really bothers you that much, substitute the pronouns "she" and "he" while you are reading this.

I can't believe you actually bothered to respond to that bigot at all. I applaud your well thought out reply. Celynn (talk) 06:00, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Plus one. I also can't believe you actually bothered to respond to that bigot at all, and I also applaud your well-thought-out reply. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.20.42.114 (User ) 22:27, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Hey, you self-satisfying self-righteous LGBTQ crusaders, thanks for insulting passers-by. Now instead of using ad hominem arguments to invalidate commenters' criticism, try to act like you know what Wikipedia is about : respecting guidelines, not hoisting the rainbow flag of vague moral values to decide who's a closed-minded asshole and doesn't deserve to be taken seriously. "Weak examples" really? Screw your weak definition of weakness. The one and only answer that should have been given to the people who protested the use of the pronoun "he" is : "MOS:IDENTITY makes authority. Discuss it on its own page if you disagree." Bigots.--Kirochi AKA 89.158.104.26 (User ) 23:44, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

The only thing you should be complaining about is that I used this talk page for something other than discussing the article. I regret breaking wiki policy by using this page to criticise a poster rather than simply pointing out their mistake. However, I do stand by what I said on a personal level. If people are so offended by being called out for what they are then perhaps they ought not to state personal (and offensive) comments in public. Those who discriminate and disrespect others life-styles are, per the definition, bigots. I "hoisted" no "rainbow flag."

Those given examples were actually quite weak and illogical. Somebody who identifies as a 5 year old (despite being 80) is not entitled to being referred to as a 5 year old. More than likely they have a mental illness; however, transgender identities are far more complicated than that dismissive logic allows. Any time spent researching "transgender" issues, or simply reading the wiki article, would help enlighten any poster. However, some people choose not to do research before writing ignorant things. Their mind is usually set on "how things should be" and they'll allow nothing to change it. That, by the way, is also part of the definition of bigotry. I used it correctly when referring to the original poster; you did not.

Calling me out for critcising others, rather than citing wiki policy, and then proceeding to criticise and insult me (while using inflammatory language) is rather hypocritical of you. Perhaps you should have made your post on our talk pages (as your own advice recommended). Perhaps if you weren't of like mind with the OP you wouldn't have been so quick to anger. It's sad to see that someone who's so clearly into wiki policy could be so close minded. Celynn (talk) 19:53, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit request from Electrcguy, 12 December 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} All times Teena Brandon is referred to as "he" should be changed to "she" as she was born female and continued her life as biologically female, having no sexual reassignment surgery or hormone therapy. There is no basis for the deliberate misrepresentation of gender for this article.

Electrcguy (talk) 04:06, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

 Not done: Please see MOS:IDENTITY which states that a person should be referred as the gender they currently identify as. Stickee (talk) 09:17, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

What a load of bullshit, can I self-identify as African-American even though I was born white? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.47.137.167 (talk) 04:08, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

There is no misrepresentation of gender in the article, unless you subscribe to the belief that physical characteristics determine gender, which is incredibly inaccurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.167.154.48 (talk) 03:17, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

"There is no misrepresentation of gender in the article, unless you subscribe to the belief that physical characteristics determine gender, which is incredibly inaccurate." Really? Lord what a load of horseshit! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.181.68.33 (talk) 13:06, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Have you no idea what website you're on? Go up to that little search bar and type in "transgender". It'll tell you all about that so-called 'horse shit' and explain why your ignorant opinion is really just small minded bigotry. Celynn (talk) 06:03, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

You say it is "horseshit" so it must be! So eloquent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.72.176.240 (talk) 02:52, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

The use of the word "him" in this article is foolishness because it causes confusion and is not factual. A person can think they're a goat but that doesn't make them a goat. For instance, if you write that Fred was a goat and the article is read a thousand years from now, what will people think, it's mythology? It is important to know from the beginning that this person was a woman because that fact speaks to the complexity of their life and psychological concept of reality. Pretending she was a man writes reality from her perspective and doesn't do justice to the real story of her life. I decided to add this comment because a college student asked me about the story, which I recall from news articles, and I looked up the wiki to refresh my memory. I thought she was a woman but then read "he" repeatedly and then doubted my memory. There's no reason for it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.176.28.172 (talk) 08:55, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Brandon Teena was quite certainly a male. The article explains that he was CAFAB (coercively assigned female at birth), and the effects that this had on his life, but his CAFAB status didn't change the fact that he was a guy. Also-he was a rampant homophobe. Calling him a lesbian is kind of contradictory to this, though if he happened to have been a CAMAB homophobic straight guy instead of a CAFAB one, I may have supported it ;) But he was a guy. He was more of one than me-though as a CAFAB transmasculine genderpunk neutrois, I do get considered a guy quite often! --Stealthy (talk) 11:41, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Typo

"He also began rebelling at school by violating the school dress-code policy to dress more masculine." should be replaced by "He also began rebelling at school by violating the school dress-code policy to dress more masculinly.

Request NOT to remove edit protection.

Strong support in general for the community of Wikipedia editors in adhering to Wikipedia guidelines. Strong support for MOS:IDENTITY and relevant conventions. Maybe this comment is irrelevant, but if the purpose of the discussion page is to make the article better, I'm going to suggest that this existing policy is making it better.66.134.4.226 (talk) 21:00, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

seconded193.146.58.181 (talk) 21:01, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Gender Pronoun Issue

This article, while informative, is a bit difficult to follow. The reason is the switching of gender use from main biological designation to self-determined gender identity (though sadly, in this case, that identity was a little shaky.)

I'm not here to pass judgement on a person who was forced to live a lie, and was brutally murdered. The facts of the story are harrowing and bleak.

However, this is an Encyclopedia of sorts, a damn good one in my opinion. And I do question the pronoun usage - it makes the article confusing at first run. I understand that there is a "pronoun reclamation" movement going on in the LGBT community, and that it is being led by American youth and spreading to colleges nation-wide. I went to Hampshire College - I understand these things. And I applaud young people shifting social norms and working for justice.

But can new language usage be forced upon a readership? I'm not certain it can, certainly not without some confusion. What are the literary precedents for dealing with this new usage - is there a general consensus with regards to academic writing? I'm curious.

I don't know what the solve is, and I'm conflicted about the entire idea of pronoun re-assignment. I have very rigid ideas about grammar. But my problem with the article is honestly simply one of parsing information in the quickest manner possible. And I thought it pertinent to express my confusion in contrast to the Edit Request made by a certain other gentlemen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.229.46.45 (talk) 15:16, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Brandon was a male; his anatomy is irrelevant. Therefore, the use of male PGPs (he/him/his) is appropriate and correct. There is no problem with the gender pronouns on this page. If someone identifies as male, they are male, regardless of their assigned at birth sex (sex is assigned at birth, gender is how one identifies). 96.236.7.10 (talk) 01:25, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Teena was born female and treated as a girl through childhood, wore feminine clothing and self-identified as a girl until later on (though tomboy-ish... as the article states, and as many girls are... it is the early gender which is relevant in the early part of the entry) - This article reads very strangely and I agree with the original comment.

To refer to Teena as female before adolescence would be a compromise.60.242.39.220 (talk) 19:08, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm here to support the argument. The article is extremely hard to read with the pronoun issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.28.50.165 (talk) 05:16, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy requires that male pronouns be used for Brandon Teena throughout this article, including in the sections describing his childhood. See MOS:IDENTITY: "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to using the gendered nouns, pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies when referring to any phase of that person's life." Happydemic (talk) 14:06, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

"Sexual Assault and murder" edits

I'm requesting that we expand the section on Brandon's sexual assault and murder. It is my understanding that the rape and the murders did not occur on the same day, which the article may lead one to believe. The documentary The Brandon Teena Story provides an exhaustive description of the events from the sexual assault leading to Brandon's death on the 31st of December. Is there anyway we can unlock the article to delineate the narrative of the crimes a little further? Ptfescewl (talk) 18:10, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

The internet

I remember the occasion well, particularly the use of the internet because of the shortcomings of the Sheriff's department, when hundreds of people on chat lines around the world combined to deluge the authorities with e-mails. It was an important first demonstration of the power of the internet. Is there no literature on the subject which can be cited in this article? 86.155.33.134 (talk) 09:31, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Brandon Teena

It states on his page, "Teena claimed to be intersex several times, with this later being proven to be false." However, it does not state how this was proven false. Perhaps whoever submitted this comment could elaborate. It is not medically proven false by looking at the exterior of a patient's body. There are numerous variations of a person being intersexed. For two examples out of several types of testing that could've been done: What were the results of a chromosome test as well as that of any mutated chromosomes if any mutated chromosomes were present? Did he have an androgen wash while he was a fetus in his mother's womb? Hmmm? So, if the statement was never seriously clinically proven then it would most likely be best to remove at least part of the statement made on the Wikipedia page created for him. In other words, maybe it can be said: "Teena claimed to be intersexed several times." Then leave off the rest of the statement. If there isn't any knowledge of medical testing other than a visual examination then the rest of that statement is very mistaken.

{Another concerned person for Brandon's memory} —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.74.224.35 (talk) 19:21, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

From memory, no 'abnormalities' were detected in autopsy. I was only a young person at the time though, so this may or may not be accurate. - Fellow Concerned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.167.154.48 (talk) 03:21, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Mfinch13, 5 July 2011

I'm requesting an edit to change Teena's pronouns back to male ones, to be consistent with his self-identification, and therefore with the Wikipedia Manual of Style (MOS:IDENTITY). Is there any way that users who change his pronouns to female ones can be blocked from editing the page in the future? --Mfinch13 (talk) 03:26, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Mfinch13 (talk) 03:26, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

 Done I undid the recent revisions that had changed it to she/her. Unless a user violates a policy, ie WP:3RR or WP:VANDAL they will most likely not be blocked just because they changed the article to she/her. Jnorton7558 (talk) 03:37, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Greenefloripa, 13 July 2011

Due respect to Brandon, and thus necessarily to his self-defined identity, requires use of the male pronoun in the text of Wikipedia. This is the least respect we can show for him, his memory, and his significant ohers. As to reliable sources supporting this ethic, see Eve Sedgwick, Michael Warner, Judith Butler, and others. As a professor and researcher of Queer Studies, I find the neglect to use the male pronoun in such disrespectful references to Brandon Teena in Wikipedia to be a major topic for a discussion of normatively sanctioned cultural recalcitrance -- even on a page written by people who are acquainted with the issues involved in his struggle! Greenefloripa (talk) 06:21, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Greenefloripa (talk) 06:21, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

The text already does use the male pronoun for him. This was fixed by the previous edit request. Unless you notice some specific places? Jnorton7558 (talk) 07:07, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

However, an encyclopaedia should be concerned with neutral reporting, not with "respect" or "disrespect" to anybody. 86.159.192.146 (talk) 23:43, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Him and his?

Those words are extremely misleading. 184.96.243.120 (talk) 04:34, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

He, him and his are the correct gender pronouns for this article. See MOS:IDENTITY. Happydemic (talk) 13:53, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't want to comment on the MOS:Identity policy as such but since it is considered applicable, it would be very helpful for this article to simply make reference to that policy right up top, just to aid readers. eg "Brandon Teena had female physical characteristics, but self-identified as a male. In accordance with Wikipedia's MOS:Identity policy, the pronoun 'he' is used throughout this article to reflect that self-identification." I can't see why anyone would have a problem with some explanatory information like that up top, and I can tell you as a reader of the article that it would have helped me understand the article. I understand there are some political issues surrounding the choice of pronoun and that is all to the good, but it needs to be admitted that the general reader may need some introductory guidance. - Anthroipoidape — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.237.99.12 (talk) 00:57, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The first 7 words of the article (not including the DOB/D) are already "Brandon Teena . . . was an American trans man". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.146.58.181 (talk) 20:57, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the article opens by referring to the subject as a "trans man". To me, this does not solve the problem that the article is extremely confusing to those seeking information - admittedly, it's probably not confusing to people who already know the information anyway, and who seem to have an aversion to making the article clear to readers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.237.99.12 (talk) 03:08, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

It's interesting that the only real conversation that happens on this talk page is the he/she question. See what happens when you try an end run around common sense? And yes, it's not confusing to those who have their mind right. To everyone else however, it's downright absurd. – JBarta (talk) 15:24, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately for all sane people, society is amazingly transphobic/binarist. --Stealthy (talk) 11:43, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

To: 220.237.99.12 If you're seeking "clarity" on what it means to be a transsexual or a trans man then you are able to click "tran man" and it'll bring you to a page explaining it. It's not a confusing matter. The only ones confused are those who don't know how pronouns work, I'm sure they're able to read up on pronouns with regard to transgender people on that respective page. That's how encyclopaedia's work. Each article doesn't need a distillation on more complicated topics, readers are able to look up those more complicated topics to better their understanding. Celynn (talk) 05:55, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 14 April 2012

The person in this article is continually referred to as he/him. This is not factually correct. Please do let political agendas take the place of reality in Wikipedia. A person can claim and identify as a penguin, they are not a penguin. 173.28.159.196 (talk) 21:21, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

N Not done and not likely to be done See Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Identity, which was already linked in abbreviated format above. By community concensus, stated preferences in this regard are followed.

Readability

I'm probably repeating what other people have already said in vain, but this article is difficult to follow. I didn't click the link to Trans man, so was unaware of Teena's sex at birth or self determined gender identity. People should not be expected to follow a link to another article to understand something that can be easily explained in this article. Without this knowledge, the first paragraph of the "life" section reads as if Teena was born biologically male, implies that Teena's mother gave her son a female name, and becomes very confusing when he is referred to as a tomboy and daughter. I would suggest that this be resolved simply by changing the first sentence of the "life" section to something along the lines of "Teena was born Teena Renae Brandon, biologically female, in Lincoln, Nebraska, the younger of two children to Patrick and JoAnn Brandon, but showed signs of male self identification from an early age" the precise terms that I've used can be replaced with other unambiguous PC terms if needed. Will Bradshaw (talk) 08:47, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

That's correct, you are repeating previous qualms, ones that have already been answered. The opening sentence in the lead says "Brandon Teena (December 12, 1972 – December 31, 1993) was an American trans man who was raped and murdered in Humboldt, Nebraska." Trans man means "male who was asigned 'female' at birth" i.e. born biologically female but self-identifies as male. This descriptor can be used for female to male transsexuals.

The proper word was used and it's definition, if you don't know it automatically (no one is born with knowledge afterall), can be easily obtained by clicking the the word "trans man". There is no reason to describe what a "trans man" is on every single transgender page on this wikipedia. This site is written like an encyclopaedia article. If you're reading up on transgender issues (which Brandon Teena certainly qualifies as) then you should learn the terms. You can only do that by visiting the other pages which hold them. This page isn't about trans men, it's about the life of Brandon Teena. Saying he's a trans man is enough.

Without proper knowledge you won't understand this article. That's not a bad thing. Without proper knowledge (and visiting multiple wiki pages) you won't understand the wiki page about Black Holes either. I know this sounds like a straw man but bear with me, this analogy has a point: wiki articles do not distill everything on a single page, otherwise they would become far too wordy (much like this response). If another page explains a word and the concepts around that word then you do not need to explain it on the any subsequent page you use it on.

Please don't take this response negatively. I know it sounds a bit condescending. It wasn't meant to. Celynn (talk) 20:30, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

What I suggested isn't too wordy at all. WP:BTW states "Do not unnecessarily make a reader chase links: if a highly technical term can be simply explained with a very few words, do so [sic]". 'Trans man' may not be a highly technical term, but it is a technical term that can be easily explained within the article, which will make the article much more coherent to someone new to the subject. Will Bradshaw (talk) 22:05, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

By your own admission "trans man" is not a highly technical term. It is a word defined by the context in which it's used (see: "Teena was born Teena Renae Brandon... [he] began identifying as male during adolescence and dated a female student during this period. His mother rejected his male identity and continued referring to him as her "daughter".") and defined immediately in the lead sentence on the page "trans man" if you click the link. Later on, the article also mentions Teen's anatomically female status.

Brandon Teena is not a name that is normally dis-associated from LGBT issues. By looking at any transgender page you should have the answer to the question "what is a trans man?" It seems most people (uninitiated in transgender issues) that complain about the confusing nature of this article are thrown off by the use of male pronouns throughout and at the beginning (which is inline with MOS:IDENTITY). This article is not meant as a starting point to transgender education just as Black Holes is not meant as a starting point for Astronomy.

For these reasons, I strongly disagree with the proposed changes because they are unnecessary. This is a transgender page, Teena is described as a trans man in the lead, and the article makes note of Teena's birth name (at his birth) and anatomically female status (during his rape). A similar question was asked last year and a similar response was given.

Your proposed addition is not wordy, true, but it is redundant. It is not necessary to constantly remind the reader that Brandon Teena was born biologically female (a fact that would be stated three times in the opening sentence plus first paragraph of the article). If you would like to propose a change to the lead that would kill redundancy and add clarity to the issue then I'm willing to compromise. Celynn (talk) 01:50, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

"Trans man" isn't defined by its context, it may be defined by the article as a whole but a reader should not be expected to read the whole article to understand a simple term, especially one used in the lead. They should also not be expected to follow a link (WP:BTW), regardless of the complexity of the term.

The article on black holes has several sections that describe certain areas briefly but each has a link to other articles that expand on that particular subject. Enough information is given to make the article at least somewhat coherent without requiring other articles to be read. Without the knowledge that Teena was biologically female, this article does not make sense, it should not be the responsibility of the reader to make it make sense.

How about defining "trans man" within the lead? "Brandon Teena (December 12, 1972 – December 31, 1993) was an American trans man, a person born biologically female who self identifies as male, who was raped and murdered in Humboldt, Nebraska." (Although repetition of "who" sounds a bit wrong.) Will Bradshaw (talk) 17:17, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

I've been thinking about trying to reword the lead to remove trans man and replace it with a simplified definition while still linking to the wiki article on trans men. I think your suggestion does make sense, clearly enough people are stumbling over the wording in this article to make it an issue. RE: Readability, I'm going to change the lead to read "Brandon Teena (December 12, 1972 – December 31, 1993) was an American trans man, a female to male transgender person, who was raped and murdered in Humboldt, Nebraska."

I'd much rather get rid of "transman" and simply write "Brandon Teena (December 12, 1972 – December 31, 1993) was an American female to male transgender person who was raped and murdered in Humboldt, Nebraska" in order to get rid of repetition but I believe it will sound rather offensive to list "female" as the starting label on a trans man's article. Celynn (talk) 13:52, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I can see why someone might consider that inappropriate. I'm not particularly fussed by the repetition but if it's annoying you, get rid of it and let someone complain about it at a later date. Having it the way it is now does make it more informative though. Will Bradshaw (talk) 18:14, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Edit request: minor typo

There is a minor typo on this article. Within the subheading "Life," first paragraph, last sentence: "On several occasions Teena claimed to be intersex though this assertion was later dispoved."

Definitively settling the issue of pronoun

The lunacy of "He was raped vaginally", "A standard rape kit was used and samples were taken from his vagina" go to show how idiotic it is that fools continue to vandalize this page with the improper pronoun and ironically report others for vandalism who understand English.

If you insist upon going against centuries of the English language and millennia of medical knowledge, please cite reliable, well respected established medical sources that state that vaginas on a human body constitute the male sex. Harvard Medical, the Mayo Clinic, Cedars Sinai, John Hopkins, Surgeon General. Just one out of those that say a person born with an indisputable vagina, menstruates and can become pregnant is a he. Eric12 (talk) 18:52, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Like I stated on your talk page, we go by MOS:IDENTITY regarding this. As for "going against centuries of the English language and millennia of medical knowledge," I suggest that you read the Transgender article, the Causes of transsexualism article, especially the biological aspects of one or both of those articles, and the Intersex article.

You also need to remember to always sign your user name. You have been a part of this site since 2006, and should know this by now. I signed your user name for you above, but you need to do it yourself from now on. At the end of your comments, you should simply type four tildes (~), like this: ~~~~. Flyer22 (talk) 20:44, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Specifically regarding the two lines above that you take issue with, if WP:CONSENSUS is formed to use "Teena" for those instances, that would be acceptable...since we use "Teena" as his surname. Flyer22 (talk) 20:59, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

The issue is the English language. Cite Webster's, Merriam, the Oxford English Department, a real authority on English pronouns or as stated before - or a universally recognizable medical authority that states your case that a person with an indisputable vagina, who menstruates and can become pregnant is a he. Citing a lobby group who wishes to change centuries of very fundamental English language use does not mean that they have succeeded. Cold, hard facts please.

This is an encyclopedia, not a pamphlet from a wishful thinking interest group. Eric12 (talk) 23:33, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

The MoS is very clear about this. There is no point in continuing this discussion. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 23:38, 26 September 2012 (UTC)