Talk:Armenian genocide

I could not find in the article information related to a most important trial concerning the subject

In the article, I could not find any information or reference to a not-so-recent-now trial concerning the subject. The trial is shortly known as Perincek vs Switzerland trial; which took place in the European Court of Human Rights.

As a summary, in Switzerland, Dogu Perincek, leader of the Workers' Party (Turkey), publicly defined Armenian Genocide as an international and imperialist lie. He said what had happened was no genocide, but war. People from both opposite sides had lost their lives. He did this action to protest the law in Switzerland that defined denying Armenian Genocide as a crime. He was found guilty in the trials at the Federal Court of Switzerland. Perincek appealed to European Court of Human Rights, where he was found "had not committed an abuse of his rights within the meaning of Article 17 of the Convention." The verdict can be found on this link.

An excerpt from the verdict of the European Court of Human Rights, about genocides in general is also significant: "The Court also pointed out that it was not called upon to rule on the legal characterisation of the Armenian genocide. The existence of a “genocide”, which was a precisely defined legal concept, was not easy to prove. The Court doubted that there could be a general consensus as to events such as those at issue, given that historical research was by definition open to discussion and a matter of debate, without necessarily giving rise to final conclusions or to the assertion of objective and absolute truths."

The Wiki article on the trial is also insufficient on terms of technical information.

94.121.70.191 (talk) 08:11, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

The article is ongoing. Editors are awaiting the judgment of the Grand Chamber on Switzerland's appeal. There hearings are not for the public record, so it's not surprising there's presently a hiatus. The passage from the Press Release you quote is presently incorporated. An editor did also contribute a whole wall of text from the original judgment, but that was primary source which had to be deleted as Wikipedia is about recording secondary sources. If you know a good secondary source which comments on the original verdict, perhaps you could incorporate it. I'll look again today later in the day, but I didn't find anything worth adding when I last looked. c1cada (talk) 09:19, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

"The Court doubted that there could be a general consensus as to events such as those at issue, given that historical research was by definition open to discussion and a matter of debate, without necessarily giving rise to final conclusions or to the assertion of objective and absolute truths." Seems like what this opinion says, in a roundabout way, is that due to the difficulty of proving genocide as a crime under int'l law, that if a general consensus exists about the nature of the historical events in question, that consensus represents a final conclusion about the events. Because the topic is so tricky, and there are ample opportunities for discussion, a general scholarly concensus can be viewed as settling the question conclusively, as a concensus would not be possible in a weak case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.15.0.104 (talk) 17:26, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Exactly. For more information as to why Dogu Perincek had the typical excuse to further his own imperialist propaganda, look at here. --92slim (talk) 17:25, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

No reference to the highly significant report of the first prime minister of Armenia in the article

In a report entitled "Dashnaktsutyun Has Nothing More to Do", which discusses but is not limited to the subject and was addressed to his political party, The Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnagtzoutiun or Dashnaktsutyun), Armenia's first prime minister Hovhannes Katchaznouni defines the events as one would define a war.

He criticizes the aspect of the Armenian side, stating that "We overestimated the ability of the Armenian people, its political and military power, and overvalued the extent and significance of the services our people rendered to the Russians. And by overestimating our very humble worth and merit we were naturally exaggerating our hopes and expectations."

He also states that "The Turks knew what they were doing and have no reason to regret it today. It was the most definite technique to resolve the Armenian Question." These statements are consistent with defining the events as war which included bilateral slaughters, but not genocide.

As a result, it may be concluded that it is obvious that many people lost their lives from both opposed sides. It can be more on one side and less on the other, depending on their military and political powers.

But to define the events as genocide is not fair; and highly reduces the credibility of wikipedia.

94.121.70.191 (talk) 08:12, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Since the creator of the present topic seems to know so much about Katchaznouni's thinking, I'd like to ask him what he thinks Katchaznouni meant by "It" in the sentence, "It was the most definite technique to resolve the Armenian Question". Diranakir (talk) 23:47, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

That "it" may refer to any action that can take place in war; but it does not refer to "genocide". As I mentioned above, during this war, numerous upsetting events took place effecting both opposite sides; as it would be, and as it is, in any war. 94.121.66.31 (talk) 20:35, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

The origin of the word genocide.

94.121.66.31 (talk · contribs) Are you trying to be funny? The term "genocide" was invented in 1943 by Raphael Lemkin and therefore it was not used till then. Nevertheless, the systematic massacres and deportations of Armenians in 1915 fits perfectly into the definition of genocide. In fact, Lemkin used the Armenian Genocide as a reference and a primary example of this new word. You can watch the video I provided or just take a glance at "Raphael Lemkin's Dossier on the Armenian Genocide" (ISBN:0977715345) for more information.

So you really don't want to provide the definition of "it"? No worries, I can provide it for you. But out of curiosity, have you even read Khatchaznouni's report? You've picked out one sentence from the report and excluded all the ones referring to the mass extermination of the Armenians. Nice try buddy. Yet, even with such a bad translation by Mehmet Perinçek, a convicted criminal and a member of the ultra-nationalist Ergenekon organization, what Khatchaznouni said was clear:

The mass exiles, deportations, and massacres that took place during the summer and autumn of 1915 were fatal blows to the Armenian Cause. Half of historical Armenia - the same half where the fundamentals of our independence would be laid according to the traditions inherited by European diplomacy - that half was deprived of Armenians. In the Armenian provinces of Turkey there were no Armenians. The Turks knew what they were doing and have no reason to regret it today. It was the most definite technique to resolve the Armenian Question.

Khatchaznouni continues to describe the intentions of the Turkish government to destroy and exterminate his Armenian population in the very same report:

The proof is, however – and this is crucial – that the struggle began decades ago against which the Turkish government brought about the deportation or extermination of the Armenian people in Turkey and the desolation of Turkish Armenia.

This was the terrible fact.

Civilized humanity might very well be shaken with rage in the face of this horrifying crime. Statesmen might utter menacing words against criminal Turkey. “Blue”, “yellow”, “orange” books and papers might be published accusing them. Divine punishment against the criminals might be invoked in churches by clergymen of all denominations. The press of all countries might be filled with horrifying descriptions and details and the evidence of eye-witnesses...Let them say this or that, but the work was already done and words would not revive the corpses fallen in the Arabian deserts, restore the ruined hearths, repopulate the country now become desolate. The Turks knew what they ought to do and did it.

Khatchaznouni's report does not depict the Armenian Genocide as merely a war fought in between Armenians and Turksh. That's a huge mistake made by unprofessional Armenian Genocide denialists who are now embarrassed for even uttering such a claim. In fact, denialists don't even use this report anymore as an attempt of debunking the Armenian Genocide. They've been embarrassed way too many times. I suggest you don't try to continue or revive that mistake either. Simply because Khatchaznouni makes it clear that what happened to the Armenians in 1915 was a "horrifying crime" which consisted of "mass exiles, deportations, and massacres" which ultimately resulted with the Turkish government bringing about "the deportation or extermination of the Armenian people in Turkey." Étienne Dolet (talk) 23:22, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Claiming that he is trying to uphold Wikipedia's credibility, the initiator of the present topic is avoiding a legitimate discussion by ignoring the ordinary meaning of words and then hiding behind the results. "It was the most definite technique" does not equal "any action that can take place in war", or "numerous upsetting events". That is as clear as the nose on one's face. Diranakir (talk) 20:21, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for kind replies. I will be re-presenting my thoughts and opinions about the subjects that have been mentioned. But first, I have to inform you that I will expand this thread further later, as I do not have enough time for this right now. So, please keep in touch.

1 - My primary motivation to start this discussion is to point out that, a highly significant report of the first prime minister of Armenia is not -and should be- referred in the article, if it is intended to make the article comprehensive. About the report, I also would be happy to hear your opinions about why the report "Dashnaktsutyun Has Nothing More to Do", by the first prime minister of Armenia, had been removed from libraries and banned in Armenia.

2 - As for the "anachronism" claim about the term genocide; I do not think I have made any imply that the term genocide had already been coined in 1915 (to be more clear: in my initial message by saying ""but it does not refer to "genocide"", I mean it does not refer to "genocide" (one should not take he message that it means genocide)); which means I am not trying to be funny.

3 - I hope you are a little bit outdated in the Ergenekon; otherwise what you stated would be a pure intentional denigration. The Ergenekon trial -after over 6 years - is proven to be a coup against people who are -after all these years they were sentenced- declared as not guilty, including Mehmet Perincek. All so-called convicted persons are acquitted, by the verdict of the Constitutional Court (highest court) of Turkey. You can check out the list of illegality examples in Ergenekon trials. As a matter of fact, the famous prosecutor of the trial, Zekeriya Oz, and judges, president of the court Hasan Hüseyin Özese, and member judges Sedat Sami Haşıloğlu and Hüsnü Çalmuk are now being prosecuted; for the faults in the Ergenekon trials. They are believed to be connected to the Fethullah Gülen (so called religious) order.

4 - I refuse the term "denialist", since one can only deny a truth. One can not deny the ambiguous outcomes of a controversial discussion, however these can be agreed or disagreed.

5 - There are many former "denialists" of Armenian origin, but one of the last of them was Hrant Dink, an iconic person of the Armenian community in Turkey, the editor of the Agos magazine, who was murdered in 2007. He interpreted the 1915 events with courage, Hrant Dink. Dink claimed that the Kurds were now falling in for the traps that the Armenians fell in the past. He says in his last speech in Malatya Business Peoples Association: "English, Russian, German, and French are playing the same game again in this land. In the past, the Armenian people trusted them, thought they would rescue them from the cruelity of the Ottoman. But they were wrong, because they finished their business and they left. And they left brothers of this land as enemies". He claimed that the US is now playing the same game, and this time Kurds are falling for it. He said "That is America. Comes, minds its own business, and when he is done, leaves. And then people here, scuffle within themselves". Before you accuse the imaginary Ergenekon organisation, let me add that the chief of police in Trabzon, Ramazan Akyürek, who condoned the murder to happen, had officially been filed as being a member of the Fethullah Gülen so-called religious order.

6 - Raphael Lemkin may be an innovative person, and like any person, he may be wrong, or deceived, or ignorant. If he chose 1915 events as an example, I believe that was his mistake. Please check the European Council of Human Rights report mentioned in the above topic The controversy about the 1915 events may only be ended by an objective, unbiased and thorough study by a council of scientists, not by talented individuals. I believe one day, these studies will be made and the fact that the events were "carnage made by both sides and effecting both sides", but not an "unilateral genocide", will be revealed.

7 - Being ignorant is not as difficult as knowing. But pretending not to know is even harder. I hope our children will meet, and be "brothers" as Dink would say, in a world where blood group is more important than ethnical identities.

Best regards, 94.121.64.98 (talk) 12:27, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

References

1.) 94.121.66.31 (talk · contribs) Okay, this is becoming a comedy. Banned in Armenia? Who ever told you that? I know the Turkish lobby and Armenian Genocide deniers have been repeating that garbage for quite some time now. But it's another embarrassing claim. Kachaznouni's Dashnaktsutyun Has Nothing More to Do is available in the National Library Armenia in several languages. The book has been republished several times in Armenia and is widely read. Have you even bothered looking for the book at the library catalog of the National Library of Armenia? If not, here's the link [1]. I've spotted at least a dozen copies of the book available in almost all branches of the National Library located throughout Armenia. So please, do yourself a favor and research this a little more before coming back here.

2.) How do you expect someone to use a certain word that hasn't even been invented yet? Regardless of what you may think, Kachaznouni stated that the "Turkish government brought about the deportation or extermination of the Armenian people in Turkey and the desolation of Turkish Armenia." The extermination of a people due to their race (in this case Armenian) is by definition a genocide.

3.) I do follow the news. We can't just abruptly consider this guys work to be reliable just because he was acquitted from trial in Turkey. How reliable is Turkey's justice system anyways? The very fact that they had arrested this guy under suspicion for plotting an overthrow of an elected government to reinstate an ultra-nationalist order leaves me to believe that his research is politically motivated and therefore not reliable. Perinçek studied in Russia for 1.5 years and was assigned by the Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs to conduct research. He was the mouthpiece of the Turkish government during those years and his research was politically motivated. Upon returning to his country, he spent two years in prison in his own country and was sentenced an additional six years in the summary judgement of the trial. He was fired from his academic duties at the University of Istanbul and had his doctoral thesis was revoked. His attempt at establishing an "academic" career turned out to be a disaster. Because of this, we as Wikipedia users cannot incorporate such rubbish into the project.

4.) When it comes to the Armenian Genocide, Turkey has lost the battle of truth. Your opinion is of a minority. Denialists, such as yourself, are slowly disappearing off the face of this earth. Although you have a right to your own opinion, your personal opinion shouldn't be a guiding force to edits on such articles as this. Introducing "two-sides" of the story goes against the general consensus of Wikipedia and the arbitrary regulations under WP:ARBAA2. The side that presents the genocide as fact has been the one adopted by the Wikipedia community through a consensus, while the other side, a minority position pushed by the Government of Turkey, has not. If you continue to push such a minority position in articles related to the Armenian Genocide, you may face sanctions under WP:AE. Denialist literature, whether it be about the Holocaust or the Armenian Genocide, is always held separate from Armenian Genocide/Holocaust related articles. In fact, denialist sources and references are considered unreliable and thus unacceptable in terms of Wikipedia WP:RS requirements. Denialist sources and information can all go into the Denial of Armenian Genocide article but never into Armenian Genocide/Holocaust related articles. Arbcom takes the position seriously, see Admin Sandstein's remark here and here. The user was formally warned for his constant assertion of denialist information and sources and as of this point may be banned if he/she continues.

5.) The statement by Hrant Dink that you've provided doesn't make any sort of denialist claim. Hrant Dink never denied the Armenian Genocide. He just never dared to speak about it in public in Turkey. Considering that there were three court sentences against him and death threats being sent to him on a daily basis, that wouldn't be such a good idea. However, he was perfectly comfortable about using the word genocide when speaking in Armenian. For example, in this interview (1:34-2:10), Hrant Dink describes the moral impetus of Turks denying the Armenian Genocide. In this interview, Dink frequently uses the word genocide and scolds the Turkish academic community for teaching young children that Armenians killed Turks and that they deny genocide. Unfortunately, these are the only two interviews I found in Armenian but with English subtitles. There are many other interviews and speeches, such as this one, where he uses the word genocide frequently and expresses his admiration for genocide scholars like Vahakn Dadrian and Yves Tenon.

6.) Arguments of free speech and reports such as the one by the European Council of Human Rights do not disprove the Armenian Genocide. That's an entirely different topic of discussion. But in regards to Lemkin, you are entitled to your own opinion. However, Lemkin was far from wrong, deceived, or ignorant. He was a well-learned scholar who spent a whole lifetime researching the Armenian Genocide and has been a pioneer in that field of study ever since. His dossiers concerning the Armenian Genocide were a big breakthrough not only in the studies of the Armenian Genocide, but of all genocides. They've been recently republished by Michael Bayzler, a scholar who compiled an outstanding piece of work.

7.) I'm not "pretending" to know anything here. What I know or what you don't know won't change the fact that what happened in 1915 was a genocide.

This shall be my last response to you because it digresses from topics of discussion concerning the article itself. Étienne Dolet (talk) 03:56, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

THIS PAGE IS NOT A DISCUSSION FORUM! If any credible sources give credence to Perincek and Perincek's bizarre interpretations then that should be the basis for any discussion over content addition. But no credible sources do - so end of discussion. Something as simple and basic as this should have been said at the very start, saving everyone a lot of time. And EtienneDolet - to descend to the level of mentioning Sandstein, really! Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 03:52, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Government

I think it is important to make clear that the Genocide of 1915 was brought about by the Imperial Government (Ottoman Empire) (Three Pashas government}. It is just a fact that is not included yet, but should be replaced with the much more complex article link of Ottoman Empire for any events after 1908, as the Ottoman Empire spans many centuries and this would be too much of a distraction for the reader to get immersed into; I replaced the links I found appropiate, please do this further if necessary. --92slim (talk) 23:32, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Photo

In "Hamidian massacres" text of the photo: "Armenian massacres in E..."?! May be you want to say: Killed Armenians in E...? or Massacred Armenians in E...? 96.247.108.45 (talk) 00:12, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Changed it to make it clearer, though I don't think the old caption was that unclear. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 03:56, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 April 2015

In reference to note 147, it is quoted a sentence from Ataturk saying

[...] the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule

While the actual statement from Ataturk was

These left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule

As you can check in the document linked by the note itself. There is a big difference between the two as in the first case the subject seems to be the "Millions of Christians" while in fact it was the Young Turk Party.

I therefore request to quote the sentence in its whole integrity

http://www.zoryaninstitute.org/docs/Kemal%20Ataturk%20Admits%20Reality.pdf

46.107.74.116 (talk) 11:18, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Done Thank you. I've (hopefully) corrected it but haven't copied the quote in full, as the remainder of it seemed out of place. Alakzi (talk) 16:31, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Very good catch, 46.107.74.116 Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 03:22, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Armenian Genocide

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Armenian Genocide's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "akcam":

• From Turkification: Akcam, Taner. A Shameful Act. 2006, page 88.
• From Witnesses and testimonies of the Armenian Genocide: Akcam, Taner (2007). A shameful act: the Armenian genocide and the question of Turkish responsibility (1st Holt pbk. ed.). New York, NY: Metropolitan Books/Holt. ISBN 0-8050-8665-X.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 15:19, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

File:Armenian woman kneeling beside dead child in field.png to appear as POTD

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Armenian woman kneeling beside dead child in field.png will be appearing as picture of the day on April 24, 2015. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2015-04-24. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:40, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Picture of the day

An Armenian woman kneeling beside a dead child in a field during the Armenian Genocide, conducted by the government of the Ottoman Empire. The genocide is conventionally held to have begun on 24 April 1915, when Ottoman authorities arrested and later executed some 250 Armenian intellectuals and community leaders. Much of the remaining Armenian population were deported into the deserts of Syria, where most died from starvation, exhaustion, and systematic massacres. The total number of people killed has been estimated at between 1 and 1.5 million. Though the events are widely recognized as a genocide by historians, the Turkish government rejects such a description.Photograph: American Committee for Relief in the Near East; restoration: MjolnirPants

"If this article needs any attention or maintenance" .... well that just says it all! This article needs a complete rewrite from the ground up. Though maybe the choice of that image for the day that marks the commemoration of the 100th anniversary is appropriate for Wikipedia, given the abysmal state of this article. This "routes of deportations" map, and its many variations, has long been discredited as a usable document, and it is considered to be an historical artifact (it has been described as an "icon") rather than a modern scholarly work. If you really are set on having it, use the original from 1920 which is probably well out of copyright by now. Here is an earlier English-language version [2] Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 02:49, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

The history of this map was covered in an article by Ara Sarafian in the periodical Armenian Forum 2, no. 3. He was very critical of the continued use of this map in AG literature produced by Armenian organisations, and pointed out its inaccuracies, generalizations, omissions, and falsehoods. The magazine used to be available online, but is no longer. However the article, and responses to it published in the same magazine, can be viewed here: http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2014/03/3448-1915-armenian-genocide-in-turkish.html. It is often the case that amateurish or outdated or unprovable or false or faked Armenian material relating to the Armenian Genocide is taken up and used by Turkish apologists to deny that the Genocide happened, and articles about them are used as a substitute for the complete lack of credible material to support that denial. This is why it is both wrong and insulting to have this outdated and inaccurate map used as a featured picture on the day that commemorates the 100th anniversary of the Armenian Genocide. In the words of Ara Sarafian, the continued reliance on this map with its "errors and ambiguities", its "erroneously drawn circles and tracks", "erodes the credibility of Armenian Genocide studies and opens people to ridicule when they repeat its claims". Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 02:58, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

The original map in French, from 1920, https://www.pinterest.com/pin/279575089343170176/ and http://www.gomidas.org/books/show/66 - it is by the cartographer Zadig Khanzadian, born 1886, died 1980 (so it is probably not out of copyright). Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:22, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

If this map is so problematic, why is it used in the article? Alakzi (talk) 02:24, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

It is used because the whole article is an embarrassment, an amateurish and probably unsalvageable mess. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 02:32, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

OK. Pinging Crisco 1492, EtienneDolet and GGT to take a look. Alakzi (talk) 02:41, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

The critique in that article is concerning. I also think that the comments I left in Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Armenian Genocide remain relevant - the details of the map are quite confusing. I remember being surprised at this passing its FPC (though I was the only oppose vote) Nick-D (talk) 07:23, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I would have opposed its proposed FP status too, if I had been around then and known about it. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:11, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

• Alternatives for the anniversary (this is not an anniversary we should miss) include File:Armenian woman kneeling beside dead child in field.png and File:Roman East 50-en.svg.  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:41, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

@Crisco 1492: I'm fine with File:Armenian woman kneeling beside dead child in field.png since it's more relevant. However, we must work on the blurb quickly since time is limited.

The trouble with that particular photograph is the vagueness about its details. Taken "between 1915 and 1919". Why is something as specific as the location known, while the date it was taken is not known. We need an image that is powerful, that serves the purpose of summing up the Genocide in a single image, and which is not going to suffer from suspicions of being faked or of being a set-up image or a reconstruction or taken at a different period of time than the genocide or (in this case, I think) a genuine image that might have been given an exaggerated caption by NER for fundraising purposes. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:07, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Quite a few of the supposed AG images that are available are actually not genuine. Some are faked, some are reconstructions, some are taken from film stills, some are from earlier periods. Many more are genuine images that are without accurate information, or have been given faked captions. We see this even on the Wikipedia article. "Turkish soldiers posing with Armenian dead" - I doubt that is correct, they look like Russian soldiers to me. "Armenians ordered by the authorities to gather in the main square of the city to be deported and eventually massacred." - the "main square" actually looks like a railway station. "After the 1918 Armistice, Armenians massacred in Aleppo...." - caption suggests that these are Armenians killed before the armistice, when actually they were killed in a post-WW1 massacre of Armenians by Muslims. "Deportations of Armenians. The man in the foreground is a gendarme who has stolen carpets from the deportees." - is this actually a film still? "Armenian monastery of Bitlis with severed heads and corpses in the foreground" - this is not the caption used in the Russian book that first published this image, in that book it is described as a bridge in Bitlis. "Soldiers playing with the skulls of Armenian victims of the Armenian Genocide" - again these are Russian soldiers who encountered the remains of the massacred during their advance west, and "playing" is clearly pov. "Armenian refugee children in Aleppo, Syria" - this photo is actually still in copyright - it was taken in 1940 by Robert Jebejain who died in the late 1990s and is published in his 1986 book "The Armenian Refugee Camp in Aleppo". Maybe some might claim that all this is just nit-picking, pointing out errors that are not worthy of concern - but it is lazy mistakes like these that provide crucial support to Armenian Genocide denial.

Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 17:00, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Regardless of the fact that you may have a personal dissatisfaction with the image, or any other Armenian Genocide photograph for that matter, we go by the EV of the photograph, and what RS sources have to say about it. Calling it "propaganda", "a set-up", "a fake", and/or continuing this with lengthy personal observations about any other photograph related to the Armenian Genocide shouldn't be taken into consideration, unless you have reliable sources that prove these photographs should be labeled as such. Even then, I think that this picture accurately describes, in all its emotive power, the event in one photograph. It's an iconic photograph used over and over again in various sources just for that fact. Major news media outlets have all used it which includes: Business Insider, FrontPage Mag, and even Haaretz. Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) uses it on their website: [3], so does Stanford University: [4]. Its recognizable presence in many of these sources only shows the . But it appears that Tiptoethrutheminefield doesn't like it. The user has obstructed Armenian related nominations in the past ([5][6][7]), and has been blocked for doing so. I kindly advise the user from refraining to do so again. Étienne Dolet (talk) 17:32, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

The main reason words like "alleged" and "Armenian allegations" are always attached to the words "Armenian Genocide", and the main reason this article is in such a mess (see this article's recent GA appraisal for example) is because of exactly the sort of attitudes expressed by Étienne Dolet. It is not surprising that denialist Turks can drive a truck through the holes in so much Armenian-produce Armenian Genocide literature because that literature is full of old lies, propaganda, and over simplifications (such as this map). I hope other editors have higher standards, and higher aspirations for this article, than "unconcerned" Étienne Dolet. He/she uses the word "iconic" to describe that photo. Ara Sarafian also used the word "iconic" to describe the map that started this discussion - but he, as a proper academic, and unlike Étienne Dolet, did not use that "iconic" status to blind himself to the obvious inaccuracies and failings in that "icon". An unattributed photograph taken at an unknown date under unknown circumstances cannot be held up as the ideal image to represent the Armenian Genocide anniversary on Wikipedia. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 18:53, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

The FP map is from Robert Hewsen's book Armenia: A Historical Atlas, University of Chicago Press, it is not derived from the Armenian National Institute (ANI). Ara Sarafian's review, in his own self-published Armenian Forum, does not criticize this map in particular, it criticizes another map in its entirety. In fact, the word Hewsen is not mentioned at all in his review. For example:

1. Sarafian's review is critical of ANI's use of the railways. Hewsen's map doesn't have railways.
2. Sarafian's review is critical of ANI's map containing circles of just one color, red. Hewsen solves that by differentiating extermination centers (black) from deportation areas (red).
3. Sarafian's review is critical of a map that doesn't have the rebellions of Armenians. Hewsen's map has those rebellions.

To reiterate: we're talking about two different maps here. Sarafian's review is strictly towards the discrepancies he has found with the Khanzadian map and with the map at the ANI website. I have yet to here any criticisms of Hewsen's book. In fact, its used widely in peer-reviewed articles, academia, and throughout Wikipedia.

Also, please remain WP:CIVIL during this discussion. The bad faith assumptions of blinding myself, or that I have an "attitude" that caused some sort of mess to an article is irrelevant to this discussion. Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:10, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

The map is a reworking of the 1920 map - that cannot seriously be questioned. The map contains the same sizes of circles as the 1920 map (and the same vagueness about what those sizes represent) and the same directional arrows as the 1920 map (simplified into straight lines). In particular it has exactly the same number of arrows pointing seaward along the Black sea coast. A major point in Sarafian's critique of the 1920 map is that this allegation, that large numbers of Armenians were taken out to sea and drowned, was false and that it is recognized to be false in modern sources. The map in Hewsen's atlas , Map 224, is titled "The Armenian Genocide (after J. Naslian and B. H. Harutunian)" The caption that accompanies the map make explicit its connection to the original 1920 Khanzadian map. It mentions that Khanzadian's map was "republished in an adapted form" by Naslian in 1951. So this is the same map that the Hewsen's map acknowledges in its title as its source. I cannot locate any 1951 publication by Naslian - but I think it reasonable to assume that this "adaptation" was simply its translation into English (if it were more than that, the word "adaptation" would not have been used by the atlas). As for bad faith - it is YOU who filled your post with attacks against me rather than answering any of the points I had raised or any of the points raised by Sarafian's article. And what, if not blindness, made you assume that this article could ever get GA status [[8]] - you initiated that GA review, remember. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:48, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Again, Hewsen's map is not the same map that Khazadian has published, or the Armenian National Institute for that matter. Hewsen's map, which was published in 2001, has made his own alterations, which appears to have been in light of Sarafian's 1998 critique. The deportation routes are changed. The colors of the map are different. Even the sizes of the red/black circles are different (Sarafian's critique of the sizes was due to the fact that the circles on ANI's map was of one color). At this point, you'll have to come up with a critique of this map in particular so as to substantiate your claims. Until then, we'll be going around in circles talking about an entirely different map.

And no, I've made no attacks against you. I've done nothing but respond to the points raised here. Étienne Dolet (talk) 20:02, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Hewsen's atlas was decades in the making and was ready for publication before Sarafian's critique was published. Its long gestation period is detailed in the atlas's introductory sections. I have already explained why they are essentially the same maps, and the Hewsen map's title acknowledges it. It contains the same errors as the 1920 original that are exposed by Sarafian (such as exactly the same number of arrows pointing into the Black Sea) and has the same ambiguities exposed by Sarafian (such as does the size of the circle indicate the number killed in that location, or the number of killed who originated in that location but who died elsewhere?). Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:33, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Again, you're missing the point. Sarafian's critique is not for Hewsen's map, and I have yet to have uncovered one review that finds it counter-factual. Consequently, you'll have to have a convincing argument as to why you think Hewsen's book is unreliable, since that is most relevant to this particular map. As for the Trabzon drownings, I find Sarafian's claim premature since Dadrian made a big breakthrough regarding that point when he uncovered that several Turkish eyewitness accounts by Turkish politicians (i.e. Hafiz Mehmet) stated that they saw mass drownings off the Black Sea coast, 5 years after this particular review. Étienne Dolet (talk) 20:41, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

The original map, the Hewsen map, AND the nominated map all have a circle in the Black Sea that is almost as big as the circle used for Trebizond. So all the maps are indicating that the majority of the Armenian population of Trebizond was drowned at sea. Such a claim is supported by nobody and it is a major error to have in the map, not some minor mistake. Sarafian explains that some small numbers were drowned this way (mostly important individuals), but nothing like as many as indicated in this map. Modern scholarship holds that the vast majority of Trebizond's Armenian population was massacred inland.Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:58, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I see many scholarly works against that notion. Armenians may have been deported and massacred inland, but there's dozens of eye-witness accounts, including Giacomo Gorrini and Hafiz Mehmet, that point to the fact that Armenians in Trabzon ended up in the Black Sea. Étienne Dolet (talk) 21:11, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Nobody is disputing that some Armenians from Trebizond were killed by drowning in the Black Sea. The map is erroneously indicating that 80% to 90% of the Armenians of Trebizond were killed by drowning in the Black Sea and that NONE were deported inland (there are no arrows pointing inland from Trebizond - even the original 1920 map has an arrow pointing inland). That is not supported by any scholarly works. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:25, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

You call me "blind" because I nominated this article for GA? I made that nomination in the good faith assumption that the community can be more involved towards the betterment of this article. And indeed, I've tried to garner support for this by incorporating more users to help out in that regard Talk:Armenian_Genocide/Archive_21#Issues_with_refs. I myself have done a lot to sort out technical matters with the refs (i.e. dead links, formatting) for quite some time now. These bad faith remarks towards me needs to stop. Étienne Dolet (talk) 20:30, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

You nominated an article for GA status that was nowhere close to being a GA. I put that down to you being blind to the article's failings. I don't see how that equates to accusing you of bad faith. If you saw its failings, why did you nominate it? If you did not see its failings, it is correct to say you were blind to them. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:41, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I nominate articles believing that the article has a potential of being a Good Article.I never said that I knew it would be one beforehand. That's not for me to decide. Good Article nominations are a working progress in which GA reviewers often times point out issues concerning the article in which the nominee or other users can fix or improve. Étienne Dolet (talk) 21:11, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

As for the accusations brought forth here, I don't find them concerning. I will give my reasons why after I sort out the blurb of the replaced photograph. Étienne Dolet (talk) 08:22, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

• Once we've got a consensus for it, I can change the image. There's not all that big of a rush (we've got almost two weeks). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:36, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

• Has the Nazi Holocuast ever made it to POTD? A quick search suggests not. This image of dead bodies in a concentration camp was passed over because it was too graphic, and in connection with the map image discussed above I notice that this recently nominated image Map of the Holocaust in Europe did not achieve Featured Picture status. Why not, one can reasonably enquire as it's an exceptionally fine graphic with obvious educational value.

As for the image now suggested for the Armenian genocide, that was originally passed over when first nominated for Featured Picture status. What really changed? The process seems somewhat arbitrary to me, the forum perhaps too small and isolated.

I would prefer to see an image that remembers the victims, rather than one that graphically depicts their suffering. There is a memorial to the Armenian genocide at Tsitsernakaberd. There are plenty of good images of this memorial and no copyright issues because Freedom of Panorama is recognised in Armenia. Or perhaps one of Wikipedia's featured photographers could provide a really outstanding image, which would be more in keeping with the Wikipedia ethos I feel. c1cada (talk) 18:41, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I was thinking of suggesting the image of the first ever memorial monument to be erected [9] but I have some doubts about its attribution too - is it really a photo of the monument or is it an artist's drawing of the design of the monument? Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:02, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, a technically accomplished photograph of that memorial would be good. c1cada (talk) 19:08, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

@C1cada: I agree. The map is still a fine graphic that has a striking EV. I also stated why the review above has nothing to do with this map in particular above. I still think the map is a good bet. Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:14, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

@EtienneDolet: Yes, certainly about the Holocaust map. I would be curious to know why it wasn't Featured. As for the Armenia map, I'm not qualified to comment. That debate should have been held at the time when it went up for nomination. I edit at Perinçek v. Switzerland. If the European Court of Human Rights uphold Switzerland's appeal, then perhaps it would be appropriate to POTD an image that reinforces the reality of the Armenian Genocide (now capitalising the 'g'). Otherwise for the memorial day, I do think it would be more appropriate to show a memorial. c1cada (talk) 19:34, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

But not Tsitsernakaberd please. That's now so common it has become a clichéd image. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:45, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

The photographs must be in FP in order to qualify for the main page. Étienne Dolet (talk) 21:11, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

That limits things :( - the 1919 monument picture would not get FP status because it is cropped at the bottom and slanting to the left. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 23:14, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

• Re: Holocaust image: The file File:Rows of bodies of dead inmates fill the yard of Lager Nordhausen, a Gestapo concentration camp.jpg was put on the Unused list by the former POTD coordinator. I've been planning on including it for Holocaust Memorial Day. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:24, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

I would suggest that the fact that only a small minority of those dead inmates were Jews might put a stop to that. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 23:33, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

• "The Holocaust ... was a genocide in which approximately six million Jews were killed by the Nazi regime and its collaborators. Many historians use a definition of the Holocaust that includes the additional five million non-Jewish victims of Nazi mass murders, bringing the total to approximately eleven million." (emphasis mine). Furthermore, the article includes much information about non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust. Your statement (even if it could be sourced) would not affect any decision. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:42, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

The associated article makes it clear that the % of Jews in that camp was small in relation to everyone else, and that they were late arrivals compared to the rest of its unfortunate inmates (which means that the % of Jews who died there be small compared to the rest of its population unless the Germans were going around selectively killing or starving to death only the camp's Jewish inmates). And Holocaust Memorial Day is (to put it crudely) a commemorate-dead-Jews-only thing (intertwined with pro-Israel propaganda) as far as the UK is concerned, which is why it is treated with a lot of contempt (and the fact that it was a pet project of the discredited and widely disliked Tony Blair does not help). I can't say anything about other countries Holocaust Memorial Days, but I would be surprised if they were that different. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 00:00, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

• As for what's going to be on the MP for the anniversary: it's far too late to try and find a new image. The FP selection process takes eleven days. Even if we were to find a good image of a memorial, it wouldn't be FP in time for the main page. There are two choices, period.
• As for the image being passed over the first time: that's neither here nor there. FAs and FLs often have multiple nominations, and that doesn't affect the final product. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:30, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

There's two pics we can choose from: the File:Armenian woman kneeling beside dead child in field.png, or the Kingdom of Armenia one File:Roman East 50-en.svg. I think the woman kneeling would be the best bet for now considering that it is the only other genocide related option. It's relevance to the genocide is without question. If not, we'll just have to go with the Kingdom of Armenia. All others should cast their vote for whichever they support after this comment. Étienne Dolet (talk) 23:35, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

If the choice was only an inaccurate map that will bring ridicule or having nothing, I would choose nothing. I am really angry to discover that Étienne Dolet was the person responsible for setting that discredited map up to be almost the only available picture to represent on Wikipedia the 100th anniversary of the Genocide. Though the blame is not his alone. Didn't anyone else think of finding a suitable picture of the day for this important date? I admit I did not think of it. Everyone should feel embarrassed - if they do not feel it already. To me, this amateurishness and lack of care and planning sums up many of the activities associated with the anniversary. It looks like "Armenian woman kneeling beside dead child in field" is the only option. Could it be cropped, I wonder, to make it more visually effective. The lack of suitable background info about its creation means it really is just a symbolic image of the event. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 23:47, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Please remain WP:CIVIL and stop expressing your anger towards me. If this continues, I may have to raise these concerns to WP:ANI. Besides, if it weren't for my good faith efforts to have this map dedicated to the centennial, we wouldn't even have a discussion to have this photograph, or any other alternate photograph for that matter, be featured on the main page for the centennial. I've had this map set to appear on the main page two years ago, and that's how long ago I prepared for the centennial. But that also means you had two years to express your concerns regarding the map. And even if you find the map not credible, your remarks appear as though I knew beforehand of Sarafian's criticisms at the time of the nomination, and that I remained ostensibly oblivious towards my knowledge of it. I've had enough responding to these accusations of bad faith over my career as an editor, especially when there's so little time left for the centennial. If this is an issue concerning my editing pattern, please come and speak to me on my talk page. At any rate, I'm glad we are inching towards a broader consensus. Étienne Dolet (talk) 02:14, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

You have said that you did not know about Sarafian's criticism. At no point did I say or suggest that you did know. I am saying that you should have shown due diligence and investigated the correctness of this map before you proposed it for the POTD to mark the anniversary. An investigation would have discovered the Sarafian article and revealed how unsuitable the map was. We are where we are now partly because of your actions two years ago, and partly because no other editor (myself included) since then had the sense or the foresight to think of having a POTD for the anniversary. Nothing in that is assuming bad faith was behind any of your actions, or anyone elses actions or inactions. I am not accusing you of bad faith so please stop suggesting otherwise, and stop being angry at me and accusing me of bad faith for being the one who pointed out the errors in and criticism of the map. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 17:05, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I did investigate, into Hewsen's book and its map. I don't want to talk about something that I personally have done two years ago at this forum. We'd be digressing. Again, if you find problems with my editing abilities, please come to my talk page and we'll talk about it. I am also not mad at you, I just pointed out that you shouldn't be angry, as you openly said you were. As for this POTD, it looks like we have four users in support of including the kneeling woman photograph. I think this case should move on in that light. Étienne Dolet (talk) 18:56, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I think we can rule out the map. Not only because of the issues highlighted above, but because a photograph can do much a better job in conveying an event. I would nominate the photo of the woman kneeling down if no other suitable photo can be proffered before then. It seems to capture the emotion, hardship, tragedy, and experience Armenians went through in 1915.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 02:57, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with Marshall though I should have much preferred to have seen an image of a memorial (cliché or not). I can't say I'm impressed with POTD on the basis of the above. I sympathise with Tiptoe's remarks. I should still like to see an explanation of why the Holocaust map didn't make it to Featured. Can I suggest the accompanying text of the Armenian genocide POTD avoids the use of the word genocide? Pope Francis yesterday talked about the capacity of humanity to systematically plan the annihilation of their brothers without using the word genocide. Whether that annihilation in the case of the Armenian refugees constitutes a 'genocide' is still a sensitive issue for the Turkish people and in Europe, presently at any rate, the right of freedom of expression so championed by Jimbo Wales protects those who wish to deny it: in Mr. Perinçek's immortal words, "I have not denied genocide because there was no genocide." Wikipedia is an international project and should reflect the whole international community, not just that very small subset of it which edits Wikipedia, and still less what seems to me to be a small and local community within it not even capable of agreeing amongst themselves which images Wikipedia should Feature when it comes to the Holocaust, agreed by all to be a uniquely evil genocide and where those so disposed in Europe are not free to deny it took place. c1cada (talk) 04:35, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Since when is the Pope an authority on the Armenian Genocide? As far as I'm aware, this is the common term, and I imagine that that has been thrashed out previously here. Anyway, the Pope used the term today [10] Nick-D (talk) 10:56, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

You are wrong to say it is the common term. It is referred to as "the events of 1915" in Turkey. The Pope used the word "genocide" in the context of referring to it as "widely considered 'the first genocide of the 20th century'" and while addressing an Armenian audience. The Pope is no more an authority on the Armenian genocide than the European Court of Human Rights is, or for that matter POTD. Both the former are however obliged to pronounce on it, as does the latter choose to. My point is that this latter ought to be both more informed and more sensitive in its dealing.

Regarding Featured Pictures in general, it seems to me its rationale should be re-examined. Why for example should Wikipedia Feature an image of the Mona Lisa simply because of its technical excellence and its obvious educational value when Wikipedia has in fact nothing to do with the genesis of the image? It seems to me that the kind of images that ought to be featured are the ones provided by Wikipedia editors, their own photographs or graphics, their gifts of family photographs of historical interest, the unearthing of significant images not previously published, and so on. In short, images Wikipedia has actually had some hand in producing. Last here. I shall look out for the April 24 POTD with interest. c1cada (talk) 12:20, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Isn't the legitimate authority on the Armenian Genocide legitimate scholars. It is they who "widely consider" it to be a Genocide and who have expressed that opinion in the sort of books, articles, lectures and statements that are used as references in this article. Anyone, even Popes, has the right to assume that the opinions of legitimate scholars and other experts are correct enough to be repeated. We don't have to be an authority ourselves before being able to believe or repeat the opinion of an authority - that is the whole point of a culture amassing over time a body of accessible knowledge. It is the point of Wikipedia too, isn't it! Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:08, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, that's right about scholars. But Pope Francis took care to express their view and not his. My point. I don't mind calling it small 'g' genocide, but big 'G' genocide is another matter. The fact is the Turkish government doesn't recognise the Armenian Genocide. They called in the Vatican ambassador today to clarify just that. I thought your comments interesting. Thank you. c1cada (talk) 15:19, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I think it should be capitalized Armenian Genocide because that seems the correct way to write it in English. It is a distinct event, just like the capitalized French Revolution, or the Renaissance, or the First World War. For the word genocide by itself, even if it is the words "the genocide" used in the context of a named genocide, I don't have a strong opinion. Maybe a small g for that. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:44, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

c1cada, first and foremost: FPC and POTD are separate processes. Please don't conflate the two. Second, the simple answer is that nobody voted. Why? Maybe because it was nominated in January, which tends to be a slow month (school starting up, and similar things), or maybe because the map is PNG when SVG is now generally expected for maps, or maybe because it's below the size threshold (not a factor if SVG, but a problem with PNG) of 1500px on each side... or maybe because it's cited to Wikipedia. There's a lot of innocuous reasons. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:58, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, that's the point: no-one voted. However this is not an issue I want to go more with. c1cada (talk) 12:20, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I am opposed to excluding the word genocide from the statement. This photo is being nominated for April 24 because it commemorates an event and process that inaugurated the complete destruction of Armenian civilization and expunging from their native homeland. I understand that this word is still sensitive to many, but scholarship has made great strides since I first began editing here (2005). We are no longer trying to prove a genocide occurred, as the first pages in this archive will show editors attempting to do. We know that it did and are now trying to comprehend how it took place. This photo will invite viewers to visit this article, however imperfect, view and read its contents and perhaps plant the seed for a better understanding of what took place 100 years ago.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 17:10, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Agreed with MarshallBagramyan. Also, this article is basically the consensus of how Wikipedia and the consensus derived from its users views the events of 1915. That is to say, if you want to see what Wikipedia thinks about the event, and not Erdogan or Pope Francis, you'd have to look here. Until it has been decided otherwise, then that is when the POTD picture should change its wording to reflect the article. Étienne Dolet (talk) 18:56, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

First of all to restore my good faith here (not that it hasn't been assumed I'm sure) please check this edit out at Perinçek v. Switzerland where I restored the word genocide as used by the European Court of Human Rights in its judgment. Of course it's not practical, and doesn't make sense, to keep referring to the genocide as the "events" or the "massacres" or whatever. Nevertheless in using that word, the Court was not making a judgment on whether a genocide actually occurred or not. The Court took pains to point out it was not called upon to do that. This Wikipedia article entitled Armenian Genocide unambiguously characterises it as a genocide, while at the same time giving due weight to the Turkish government's insistence it was not. I don't find fault with that either. What worries me is that on 24 April 2015, what is essentially an Armenian Remembrance day (albeit one recognised by the California State Assembly as it happens) is going to be picked up by Wikipedia and made an international one. This if you please, if I understand POTD correctly, on the say of a single Wikipedia administrator after a process of consultation with a forum whose decisions on these Featured Picture nominations involving genocides are baffingly inconsistent to say the least. I congratulate them on their sense of entitlement, but join with the fat geek in not envying their folly... I don't think it practical not to use the phrase Armenian Genocide Remembrance Day, but after that I do countenance diplomacy. c1cada (talk) 20:09, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

2015 is the 100th anniversary of the Armenian Genocide starting - it is an important historical event that had and still has far-reaching consequences so a POTD is appropriate. That anniversary is what is being recognized by the POTD: the whole year is the anniversary but we are taking 24th April as the most suitable day to mark that anniversary with a POTD because that day is the yearly date Armenians use as a remembrance day. It is unfortunate that some simplistic Armenian literature produced for non-Armenians claims that the specific day April 24th 1915 is the day the genocide actually started - I hope we can avoid that in the POTD wording (it was there in the map caption, alas), but the wording also cannot become a discussion containing an increasingly (even inside Turkey) marginal opinion. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:43, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Just try not to get Wikipedia banned in Turkey, Tiptoe . Good luck. I do wish this had been planned a little better. c1cada (talk) 21:49, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I think the kneeling woman is a near-perfect replacement for the map. The photo is suitable and indeed relevant for the centennial. It's a very emotional depiction of the genocide. --Երևանցի ^talk 03:42, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

@Crisco 1492:: regarding your deleted query whether it would be a good idea to include Turkey's denial of a genocide, I think that would be a very good idea if you propose to persist with the wording "The rest of the Armenian population were deported into the deserts of Syria and subsequently massacred." I suggest you replace that with "The rest of the Armenian population were deported into the deserts of Syria without adequate provisioning, the greater number subsequently dying of starvation and other privations." Something like that. Otherwise I think the wording's fine. Providing the wording is an accurate reflection of the article, I don't see why Turkey's denialist stance needs to be mentioned. c1cada (talk) 13:49, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

• If we've got a way to keep the character count down, there's no problem with reworking the blurb. The suggested phrasing is a bit wordy, though. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:09, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

• @Crisco 1492:: You have to lose that "massacre" word Crisco. You'll be taken to the cleaners if you keep it. Of course I accept that essentially they were massacred by being forced into the desert in this way, but that's not normally how we use the word. "The rest of the Armenian population were deported into the deserts of Syria, where most died" if you are really short on word count. Also get a historian to check on "the rest of ...", though as far as I know that was more or less so. I do suggest you take the wording of this seriously. c1cada (talk) 07:48, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

@C1cada: I don't understand why you're so inclined to incorporate the Turkish denialist view into the blurb of this photograph. At least three users above declined including or excluding terminology that would befit such a viewpoint. And to reiterate: you would be pushing a minority viewpoint, and giving it way too much consideration than it should deserve. The word massacre should remain because that's exactly what happened. There were massacres of Armenians before and after they reached the Syrian desert. Please read the article, the blurb does nothing but reflect the information contained within it. Étienne Dolet (talk) 08:08, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

• (ec) I did. EtienneDolet reinserted it with this edit. The new suggested wording is okay with me; current version. Please Etienne, can we discuss things before hand before changing the blurb yet again. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:12, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

@Crisco 1492: Yes, I am willing to discuss of course, and I apologize if I had edited it without discussion. Crisco, there's a stark difference between dying and being killed. During the Armenian Genocide, both happened. Some were killed, some died, and some survived. We should incorporate it all, or else it would do a grave disservice to our readership. But more importantly, it would not properly reflect the article. The lead makes it clear that these people not only died because of starvation and exhaustion, but killed as a result of massacres as well. Étienne Dolet (talk) 08:20, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

• And y'all need to work out a proper wording here. Otherwise we end up with edit warring over something that's gonna be on the main page, and that's never good. I've given it my go as a non-subject matter expert; if there are refinements which can be agreed upon by people more familiar with the subject, that's good. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:45, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Warmly support Crico's wording, which is excellent and just the thing I think. Étienne stop patronising me. Do you think I'm stupid? This a memorial, about commemorating and not soapboxing. c1cada (talk) 08:51, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

I am not patronizing you, and I never insinuated that you're 'stupid'. But the wording you support does not reflect the article. At least three users have declined your proposition, yet you insist on having it. By excluding the term massacre, you're befitting the denialist point of view which claims that the deportees just happened to have died in the desert. Though that's partly true, it is not entirely true. The blurb needs to state that these deportees were subject to massacre as well. Again, it should be done so because it not only properly reflects the article, but indeed the scholarly and academic views which the Wikipedia community has adopted through consensus as well. Étienne Dolet (talk) 09:07, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

That last sentence "Though the events are widely recognized by historians, the Turkish government has refused the classification of events as a genocide" would read better as "Though the events are widely recognized by historians as a genocide, the Turkish government continues to deny it was" or something of the sort. The editors here should ensure the description is historically accurate with regard to "much of" and "most of". As Crisco points out he's given it his best shot as far as the wording goes, but he's not an expert and it's up to the editors here to ensure Wikipedia doesn't give a wrong account of the events in the POTD. Don't feel you need to address me again, Étienne. Thank you. c1cada (talk) 09:44, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

• c1cada - How's this? I'm not keen to end a sentence with "was". — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:52, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

• Don't see why not. It's not as if it's a preposition we're ending it with. Main thing is to find is to find a form of words that avoids suggesting that historian widely recognise that "events" took place which the Turkish government refuses to accept, "events", after all, being their own euphemism.c1cada (talk) 12:17, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

• I also changed the phrasing of the first part of the sentence, to avoid that issue: "Though the events are widely recognized as a genocide (added) by historians, the Turkish government has refused such a classification." — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:27, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

• "always rejected" rather than "refused"? It's not as if a demand is being made on them. However, do what you ever think best. I have enough problems keeping my own copy in order. I do think the wording in general cuts it. The main thing surely is to be mindful that this POTD will be looked at closely. I do think the emphasis should be on commemoration. Looks good to me and it's true it's an iconic photograph.c1cada (talk) 13:12, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
• and "description" rather than "classification"? c1cada (talk) 13:16, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

• Agree on both counts. Done. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:39, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

@C1cada: I don't see how the massacres of Armenians during the genocide is a less historically accurate portrayal of what happened. By adding the word massacre, we're also refining the wording to the way Crisco sees fit. That is to say an user, such as myself, who has worked for eight years now in Armenian Genocide related topics, is providing wording that more accurately describes what happened to the Armenians in 1915. I say it be best to go to a vote. Étienne Dolet (talk) 16:04, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

• @EtienneDolet: Is English your first language, Étienne? I ask in all seriousness because "massacre" is not normally the word that would be used in English to describe the indiscriminate slaughter of a civilian population herded into a desert and left to starve. In a technical sense it is of course exactly that, but nevertheless in English it suggests violence and carnage in a way that starvation does not, a still more hideous death that might be. It's precisely for this reason, I suppose, that Lemkin was moved to coin the term genocide. He was specifically addressing the Armenian genocide, although the term was immediately used in the Nuremberg indictments:

"1945 Sunday Times 21 Oct. 7 The United Nations' indictment of the 24 Nazi leaders has brought a new word into the language—genocide. It occurs in Count 3, where it is stated that all the defendants ‘conducted deliberate and systematic genocide—namely, the extermination of racial and national groups.’" (OED).

The Armenian Genocide is not listed as a massacre at List of events named massacres, although the Adana massacre is. I would be grateful if you would let me off this now, Étienne. I really don't have more to contribute here. c1cada (talk) 16:42, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

@C1cada: I never suggested that the Armenian Genocide was nothing but a massacre. However, it was partly so. To ignore the fact that the Armenians were killed by firearm, in large numbers, not only in their destination of arrival, but in the vicinity of their own homes, is to go against the historical accurateness of the events. As I have already said, the Armenians didn't just die because of starvation and exhaustion, they were also killed en masse by the sword. The Armenian Genocide is not included in the List of events named massacres simply because it wasn't a massacre in of and itself, it was a genocide. But that is also not to say that Armenians were never massacred in the process of eight years of genocide. Étienne Dolet (talk) 16:53, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

• We little people who don't edit Wikipedia articles for eight year stretches and know better than everyone else for it are nevertheless sufficiently educated to know that the Armenian Genocide was especially horrible for the way in which a helpless people were herded into the desert and left callously to die without adequate provisions. That is a massacre by any stretch of the word. It just happens that massacre is not the word that has come to describe it. I don't doubt that over and above those events, massacres of a more conventional kind occurred as well, but it detracts from the bigger picture (and what in fact the POTD image depicts), the genocide of a helpless people locked out of their homeland and the key thrown away. Enough already. Off my watchlist. c1cada (talk) 17:20, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Armenians commemorate not only a human tragedy, but a genocide. In other words, they commemorate and mourn not only those who died during deportations, but the extermination of their people as well. Saying that they merely died in the desert doesn't properly describe the extermination campaign they had to face. Dying can happen even accidentally, massacre means to be slaughtered or killed deliberately. The 'dying' bit is wording that has always been suitable for denialists to shift the blame from themselves, to those who died because they couldn't physically handle a 'relocation'. Étienne Dolet (talk) 20:31, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

• What was responsible for the Armenian Genocide was the decision to deport the entire Armenian population of some 1,750,000 souls to Syria and Iraq without regard for their safety or welfare in circumstances that were bound to lead to the extermination of the greater part of them. This is what in essence is denied by the Turkish government. Only today Erdogan once again insisted the events were the consequence of civil war. He's not saying the Armenians couldn't handle a relocation. He's saying shit (massacres) happens in civil wars. So you could argue that insisting on the word massacre is also a denialist gambit. The POTD blurb (would that be the word you were looking for? it's not really very suitable) is limited in its extent. Keep the message simple is my advice. We all know it was the deportations, the death marches, that was responsible for most of the deaths. If we need re-education, perhaps you and your editors could make that a little clearer in the article. Meanwhile let's just remember the genocide, the forced marches that led to the death of the child in the POTD image, on 24 April. c1cada (talk) 22:27, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

The Armenian Genocide did not consist merely of deportations, it also consisted of systematic massacres. Accounts from across the Ottoman Empire, including the ones in Der Zor, Syria, where most deportees were deported, describe that the local government condoned and carried out massacres of those who survived the deportations. To clarify that massacre wasn't an accident, we can simply say "...died due to starvation, exhaustion, and systematic massacre." And no, we're not trying to convey the photograph in the blurb in and of itself, the first sentence of the blurb does that for us. We are to convey the event in which this photograph portrays. That means say yes, people died from exhaustion and starvation, but others were killed due to massacre. In other words, the photograph shouldn't be dictating what the blurb should say, rather the blurb should dictate what the photograph is there to represent, and to provide a proper and more accurate understanding of the Armenian Genocide as concise as possible. Étienne Dolet (talk) 23:57, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

• N'importe quoi. c1cada (talk) 00:31, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Vote

Which wording more accurately describes the events?

1. - Much of the remaining Armenian population were deported into the deserts of Syria, where most died.
2. - The rest of the Armenian population were deported into the deserts of Syria and died due to starvation, exhaustion, and massacre.

Please cast votes in Support of which version will suit the blurb best. Étienne Dolet (talk) 16:08, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I'll vote what suits the blurp (sic) best if the question is changed to "What wording commemorates the Armenian Genocide best". c1cada (talk) 17:01, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
• Support #2 The deaths of Armenians is better elaborated that way. --Երևանցի ^talk 20:18, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - I would ammend the second one to make clear that most died during the deportation. Fixed the orthography as well - The rest of the Armenian population was deported to the deserts of Syria. The majority of the victims died during the state imposed exile due to starvation, exhaustion, and massacre.--92slim (talk) 21:03, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

@92slim: Although your wording accurately describes the events, I think it's best to shorten it to the proposed wording #2. We're trying to make the blurb (caption) as short as possible. Your wording could be best summed up with #2. Also, we don't have much time to create new proposals every time. It's best to work with proposals we have already to manage our time better. Étienne Dolet (talk) 21:19, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Ok, then. Support #2. --92slim (talk) 00:16, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support #1 It better commemorates the Armenian Genocide arising from the Tehcir Law. If you are to use #2, you need to put it in good English and make it compatible with fact (that not all were deported and not all died). I suggest #2 - Much of the remaining Armenian population were deported into the deserts of Syria, where most died from starvation, exhaustion, or massacres. c1cada (talk) 09:39, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

@C1cada: I'm glad to say that we have a consensus. I'm okay with wording #2 with your proposal. I'm not too sure about the pogroms bit though. The genocide is hardly regarded as a pogrom. Its best to just leave it: The total number of people killed in eight years of genocide has been estimated at between 1 and 1.5 million. It's shorter that way as well. Étienne Dolet (talk) 10:05, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

• I made the following WP:BOLD tweaks to the template (mainly I stress the original Armenian intellectuals were not only arrested but executed, and I introduce the term progrom in place of massacre)

An Armenian woman kneeling beside a dead child in a field during the Armenian Genocide, conducted by the government of the Ottoman Empire. The genocide is conventionally held to have begun on 24 April 1915, when Ottoman authorities arrested and executed some 250 Armenian intellectuals and community leaders in Constantinople. Much of the Armenian population were subsequently deported into the deserts of Syria, where most died. The total number of people killed in eight years of genocide and pogroms has been estimated at between 1 and 1.5 million. Though the events are widely recognized as a genocide by historians, the Turkish government rejects such a description.

c1cada (talk) 10:11, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

@EtienneDolet: Hi Étienne. I'm glad we're moving to consensus. Your remark about pogroms perhaps a second language thing? It's essentially understood in English as systematic killings, a better word I think than your massacre, and the context is not to replace the genocide (which is usually understood to refer to the deportations) but to stress that the killings continued over eight years past the deportations into the early 1920s. c1cada (talk) 10:20, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

@C1cada: The problem with pogroms is that such a term is hardly used to describe what happened to the Armenians. It's mostly used to refer to a group of rioters harassing some minority in a violent way. Also, it is never used in this article. I think it's best to leave it as before. If users at the talk page disagree with its removal, we'll just put it back. It's shorter that way too, which is a big plus. I want to reiterate that I'm fine with your proposal: Much of the remaining Armenian population were deported into the deserts of Syria, where most died from starvation, exhaustion, or massacres. If we could have that wording, and remove the word pogroms until users here state that they would like it to remain, the POTD will be ready once and for all. Étienne Dolet (talk) 10:27, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Neurath

I removed the paragraph concerning Konstantin von Neurath and was summarily reverted by 92slim (talk · contribs) without a real explanation, so I'm starting a discussion here. I had two reasons for this edit, and I mentioned these in the summary:

1. The paragraph, as written, is almost word-for-word from the Independent story it referenced [11]. If nothing else, it needs to be substantially written because it's a copyright violation.
2. The referenced story does not actually place Neurath at the massacres. It simply notes that Neurath was attached to the Turkish 4th Army during the massacres with a monitoring role, and that Neurath later held high office in the Third Reich.

This paragraph argues by insinuation, as does the story. Neurath, while convinced of war crimes at Nuremburg, isn't considered a major figure in the Holocaust. He's not a major figure in the linked story, especially as none of the Germans in the photograph have been identified. Rudolf Hoess, who is a major figure in the Holocaust, is also mentioned but only that he served in Turkey in 1916. The article doesn't say in what capacity. There's not much to go on. Mackensen (talk) 14:05, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

@Mackensen (talk · contribs) I had edited Neurath out of the section. The paragraph that I edited stated that German officials commited massacres. It's not insinuation; it's written by Robert Fisk. Please, read before making an unjustified removal of information. --92slim (talk) 15:21, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I agree, it should go. As well as having undue weight issues, it is mostly a weasily-worded insinuation used as a substitution for presenting actual facts. Robert Fisk, regardless of his many good points, has a bad habit of doing this - writing about one thing simply as an excuse to attack a different thing, with generally that different thing being one of his personal bugbears. It is lazy and unprofessional writing, imho. Just because it is Fisk's opinion does not make it fit for inclusion into this article. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:26, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

"It is lazy and unprofessional writing" - I am not sure if that forwards your argument. Specially when talking about Robert Fisk. --92slim (talk) 15:31, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Saying it is not an insinuation when written by Robert Fisk does not advance your argument by much either. I have read the article and it is full of weasily-worded insinuations. The weasily-worded insinuation that some random unnamed soldiers photographed standing bedside some skulls are "just like those pictures the Nazis took of their soldiers posing before Jewish Holocaust victims a quarter of a century later" because some of them are Germans (or rather, might be Germans). The weasily-worded insinuation that because some of them are German this means that Germans participated in the mass killing of Armenians in 1915. The weasily-worded fake "Did the Germans participate in the mass killing of Christian Armenians in 1915?" question posed to readers, when Fisk's predetermined agenda already makes that question answered, regardless of the lack of evidence, regardless of even his own "Germans have been largely absolved of crimes against humanity" statement. And they are "Christian Armenians". Did the "non Christian Armenians" live happily ever after? Fisk goes on to mention Russian archives, and Russian photographs, neatly avoiding mentioning that those photographs are full of Russian soldiers standing next to the skulls of dead Armenians since they too must be "atrocity snapshots" according to his definition. And then he weasily cherry-picks out three names name from the roll of the tens of thousands of German soldiers who served in the territory of the Ottoman Empire because those 3 became notable for their criminal actions in WW2. The connection between that and the Armenian Genocide is never explained. He never makes any actual allegations - it is all just vague insinuation. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:48, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

"regardless of the lack of evidence" There is no lack of evidence. Sorry. "neatly avoiding mentioning that those photographs are full of Russian soldiers standing next to the skulls of dead Armenians" What are you talking about? This is not a discussion forum. There are blogs for that, perhaps. --92slim (talk) 17:51, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

It seems clear you know little about the subject. But even an ignorant person might think to go to the website of the organization mention in Fisk's article to see the photos and newspapers Fisk talks about, and notice that they are full of Russians standing next to the remains of the genocide victims they have come across during their advance against the Ottoman armies. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 18:44, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Speak for yourself. We are not here to send each other personal attacks on stupidity. Also, provide sources for your unfounded claims. --92slim (talk) 18:49, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

You are the one making the claims that are in the article. What evidence do you extract from Fisk's piece to support the claim that states Germans participated in the mass killing"? So what if some of those who were part of German forces operating inside the Ottoman empire during WW1 also participated in Nazi German forces during WW2? That is pointless and off-topic for this article. And please indent your posts in relation to what is above them if you are replying to what is above them - it is used to indicate which post you are replying to. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 18:53, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I see that Хаченци (talk · contribs) has restored the contested section concerning Neurath; I don't see any consensus here to do that and, again, it's essentially a copyright violation as written. Furthermore, as I said above, it's argument by insinuation (by Fisk). The fact presented in Fisk's article is a photograph which shows German army officers at the site of a massacre. He acknowledges that we don't know who they are, not even what unit they were attached to. This photograph has nothing to do with Neurath, or Hoess, or anyone else. Mackensen (talk) 01:44, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Fisk's account of Neurath's involvement is also difficult to square with Isabel V. Hull's account in Absolute Destruction, which depicts him as a fairly minor diplomat and not complicit in genocide (see [12]). It's been years since I read Hull but I recall it being quite negative toward the Imperial German military establishment and it's already referenced once in this article. Mackensen (talk) 02:00, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

The statement about Neurath does not say he was guilty of Armenian or Jewish holocausts, it simply says he "played a role in the Nazi regime", which is obviously true. Neurath (together with Schulenburg) is often mentioned in the academical articles and books about AG. You can find more about his role here. If you think this is a copyright violation, we can of course change the statement slightly, but I can't see any reason we shouldn't mention him. --Хаченци (talk) 08:28, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

The paragraph is about German involvement in the genocide. Is he involved? How? The implication of the paragraph is that Neurath was involved, thus setting a pattern for his involvement in Nazi terror in Czechoslovakia and elsewhere. If that's the claim then a better source is needed. I've scanned through Gust and there's nothing in there that I saw to justify Fisk's charge, although perhaps I overlooked something. Mackensen (talk) 12:30, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it's a copyvio. The phrase "was attached to the Turkish 4th Army in 1915 with instructions to monitor "operations" against the Armenians" is lifted wholesale. Again, what does Fisk mean by this? Mackensen (talk) 12:34, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

You scanned Gust, but didn't see how Neurath was involved? Hmmm,,, Nothing on pages 86-91?

I'm not Mr. Fisk and can't answer what he means. In any case, if it is a copyvio, we can simply rewrite the text, to make it clear this is a verbatim phrase from Fisk. The pragaraph would look then like this

Photographs exist that may suggest the Germans participated in the mass killing. One photograph shows two unidentified German army officers standing amidst human remains. The discovery of this photograph prompted English journalist Robert Fisk to draw a direct line from the Armenian Genocide to the Holocaust. Fisk noted that some of the German witnesses to the Armenian holocaust would later go on to play a role in the Nazi regime. He writes, in particular, «Konstantin Freiherr von Neurath, for example, was attached to the Turkish 4th Army in 1915 with instructions to monitor "operations" against the Armenians; he later became Hitler's foreign minister and "Protector of Bohemia and Moravia" during Reinhard Heydrich's terror in Czechoslovakia. Friedrich Werner von der Schulenburg was consul at Erzerum from 1915-16 and later Hitler's ambassador to Moscow.». Хаченци (talk) 13:06, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

To be clear, when I use the word involved, I'm referring to the actual murder of Armenians. My problem with this whole paragraph is that it's a non-sequitur. It starts with a paragraph showing German army officers at the scene of a massacre, with the implication that they were involved in killing, although Fisk acknowledges there's no proof of that either. It then mentions Neurath, a consular official who was apparently attached to a Turkish formation at some point, and notes Neurath's later involvement in the Third Reich. Probably thousands of Germans were both in Turkey in 1915-1918 and then filled a role in the Third Reich. That's not a revelation. I could see mentioning Neurath in a paragraph discussing the foreign office, but in its current location it's very misleading. Mackensen (talk) 13:50, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Bad grammar.

"...systematic extermination of its minority Armenian subjects from their historic homeland..." The word "exterminate" is not used with "from".

Mr Anon, I'd be more concerned with "from their historic homeland". It is a bit of a pov phrase anyway, but if it means the area of historical Armenia and of Armenian Cilicia, "historic homeland" excludes the parts of the Ottoman empire where most of its Armenian population lived and where most of the Armenian Genocide's victims came from. Such as Sivas. Kayseri, Diyarbekir, Silvan, Harput, Mezirfon, Samsun, Malatya, Ankara, Konya, etc. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 17:27, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

""historic homeland" excludes the parts of the Ottoman empire where most of its Armenian" No, it doesn't. As I referenced above, this is not a discussion forum. --92slim (talk) 17:51, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes it does. Ankara was never part of historical Armenia, Sivas was never part of historical Armenia, Konya was never a part of historical Armenia, Malatya was never part of historical Armenia, etc., yet all suffered massacres of its Armenian populations. Nor can the Ottoman Empire taken as a whole be described as the "historic homeland" of Armenians. This phrase is one of the many examples of lazy inaccuracy in language and content found in the article. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 18:39, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

"Malatya was not part""Sivas was not part" Alright Sir. Proven wrong again. From the article of Malatya:

It was a major center in Lesser Armenia (P'ok'r Hayk'), remaining so until the end of the fourth century A.D. Emperor Theodosius I divided the region into two provinces: First Armenia (Hayk'), with its capital at Sebasteia (modern Sivas); and Second Armenia, with its capital at Melitene.

--92slim (talk) 18:46, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

You are confusing the geographical term "Armenia" as used by the Roman Empire with the area actually lived in by Armenians. Consult suitable sources and you will find they say the majority population of "lesser Armenia", or its administrative subsections 1st / 2md / 3rd / 4th Armenia, was not actually Armenian. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 18:57, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

92slim needs reminding that Wikipedia is not a source and that quoting unreferenced content taken from Wikipedia articles is not something that gains respect in a discussion. The amount of Armenia-related crap and misinformation on Wikipedia is unbelievable. Time to fact tag the unreferenced stuff in those articles with a view to eventually deleting some of the rubbish. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:01, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Nice personal attacks. So you claim that Roman Armenia was not Armenia, and there were no Armenians there, because Roman sources are not suitable. Yawn. --92slim (talk) 19:07, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Sigh. There were a variety of Roman and Byzantine provinces with the name Armenia in them - that word "Armenia" is a geographical term, not an ethnic term. Your understanding seems at the same level as that of the ignorant Turkish nationalists who ban maps with the names of Roman provinces on them because they think they are irredentist Armenian propaganda (see p86 in Dalrymple's "From the Holy Mountain"). Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:28, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

"that word "Armenia" is a geographical term, not an ethnic term" Wrong. Come again. I am truly waiting to see the oncoming explanation for your claim that the Armenians are not Armenians. --92slim (talk) 21:36, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

But a literate person stops reading when the author displays illiteracy. Would you say, "John Doe was killed from his city"? You can say "banished from", "expelled from", "ejected from", but you can't say "killed from", "murdered from", "exterminated from". I have no interest in the content of a phrase embedded in sentence with a glaring grammatical mistake. When the sentence is made readable, then I might care about what it says. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.135.3 (talk) 17:26, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Exactly. --92slim (talk) 17:51, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

"Definition of the word genocide"

Strangely, the section with the title "Definition of the word genocide" does not contain a definition of the word "genocide". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.135.3 (talk • contribs) 1 October 2024

I can't think of a good reason why the article should contain such a section anyway - this isn't a dictionary, and even it was, the definition would go in the genocide article, not here. And renaming the section 'origins of the word genocide' doesn't particularly solve the problem. Clearly there is a debate as to whether the events described in the article meet specific definitions of 'genocide' - maybe the section title should be 'applicability of the term genocide', though even that doesn't really fit what the section is discussing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:29, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

"Clearly there is a debate as to whether the events described in the article meet specific definitions of 'genocide'" - Ok, from the beginning. A Polish man named Raphael Lemkin invented a word called genocide. He claims he invented it to describe what happened to the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, in a live television interview. Please, read the section - you'll understand the futility of arguing here. --92slim (talk) 18:41, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

@92slim: and AndyTheGrump (talk · contribs) I appreciate your good faith efforts in improving this article. Personally, I think this article needs to be shortened. I'm fine with trimming that section the IP talks about here. After all, we don't need a a 1000+ word section on just a word. Much of that information can be merged into the Genocide article. Also, I'd rather delete paragraphs from that section and add more on the section pertaining to Witnesses. That's much important into the study in this particular genocide, rather than a investigation into the origin of the word genocide itself. Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:02, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Also, I'd like to say that I am myself to blame for expanding this article. But my expansion was to something I think is very important, especially in recent Armenian Genocide scholarship: the witnesses and testimonies of Turkish politicians and public figures. That section was really small, it needed serious expansion. Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:06, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

You have a point in your argument, in that this particular section (about the actual word) has too many unrelated details. I support the trimming as well. --92slim (talk) 19:12, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

The origin of the word genocide.

I'm going to begin the trimming process. You're welcome to trim as well, or provide any additional input. Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:46, 12 April 2015 (UTC)\

@92slim: and @AndyTheGrump:...should we add this video to that section? What you think? Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:52, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, @EtienneDolet:. I support adding the video, as the section was neither clear nor concise. The information needs to be shortened and clear to the reader. --92slim (talk) 21:06, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Oppose, there is far far too much in the article already. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 22:42, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

What do you mean by there is far far too much in the article already? --92slim (talk) 00:58, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

We're in the process of trimming it down so I don't think that'll be a problem, at least not so much of a problem. Étienne Dolet (talk) 05:22, 13 April 2015 (UTC)