Wikipedia talk:Good articles

What is the GA review requirement for factual accuracy?

Wikipedia talk:Good article criteria#"Factually accurate" czar 22:25, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Tweaking subsection name

I would like to change the subsection currently titled Children's stories, fairy tales, and nursery rhymes to Children's books, fairy tales, and nursery rhymes. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:51, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Given the lack of objection I have now done this. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:51, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Marshmello

When I nominated Marshmello for GA, it failed the first time after the reviewer closed it as a quickfail. So, I fixed the issues and the original reviewer then reclosed it as promoted. However, the bot isn't adding the GA icon to the article or notifying me about the promotion. The reclosure might not be recognized by the bot as "official". Can someone please assist with the situation?-- Flooded with them hundreds 09:02, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 January 2019

Abhijeet Anand- Growth Marketing (talk) 07:00, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

hi

•  Not done Unclear what the request is. buidhe (formerly Catrìona) 07:01, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Removal of GA cup tab?

Seems it best we take that tab down unless another competition happens? —Ed!^(talk) 04:06, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Agreed and done. For reference the page can be found at Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/GA Cup. AIRcorn (talk) 05:21, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Demoted featured articles

Peacemaker67 and I seem to have a difference of opinion about this passage in the Good Article criteria: ""demoted featured articles are not automatically graded as good articles and must be reassessed for quality". The article in question is Werner Molders which was promoted to GA before achieving featured status, and then was later delisted at FAR. My interpretation is that upon being promoted to featured status, the article lost its good status, and now that it's been demoted it would have to go through GAN again. buidhe 02:08, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Yes, that's the usual understanding. If an article for whatever reasons no longer meets FA standards, it might not meet GA standards either. Best way to decide is to put it through GA review again. --RL0919 (talk) 02:32, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

My reading of this is that from a practical perspective, they have to have a class when they are delisted after FAR, and the appropriate one is GA if they were a GA before becoming an FA. I consider that "must be re-assessed for quality" for a GA is the GAR process, and a separate GAR process is needed to delist them as a GA, as the FA criteria and GA criteria are a long way apart. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:43, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

That might be your preference, but the guidance explicitly says "demoted featured articles are not automatically graded as good articles" (emphasis added). The other assessment classes (stub to B) are available to be assigned to any demoted FA. If you want to modify the wording (for instance by adding "unless they were listed as GA prior to being promoted to FA"), then a RfC would be the best option. --RL0919 (talk) 03:07, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

So, you are effectively saying that when a FAR results in a delist against the FA criteria, there is currently no process to assess the article against the GA criteria if it had previously had that class? Any editor can assess it at whatever class they like, GA or below? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:14, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

I've always interpreted that to mean that B is the maximum assessment that can be given on delisting. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:16, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

That doesn't make a lot of sense, though. If an article was a GA, is promoted to FA, then loses FA, it should be classified as GA again. Otherwise we're saying the GA reviewer's work counts for nothing, and any passing editor can re-assess the article as they see fit. The sentence in question (worded slightly differently) was first added in May 2011 by Koavf. I think it should be changed, because the second sentence doesn't necessarily follow from the first. SarahSV ^(talk) 03:58, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

I too have also thought that a hard and fast rule on demoting past Good was a bit of a waste. I understand that some FAs dissolve so far that they are not even close to good standard, but I would be fine with FARC editors deciding that they may still meet the GA criteria if they had previously passed this in the past. They could always be tagged with {{GAR request}} if there was doubt. AIRcorn (talk) 10:02, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Ladies and gents, you are in for a treat! You're about to witness the modern GAC at their inception! :)

The relevant verbiage was actually first added in April 2007 (here). Koavf just added a further elaboration to it in May 2011 (unclear on what basis). The changes follow the discussion now at WT:Good article criteria/Archive 3 § Proposed reworking of the criteria, and were primarily driven by Deckiller and Homestarmy (no longer active), with somewhat more sporadic contributions by a handfull of others (Elonka pops her head in, as does AaronY, Wrad, and some guy going by Mike Christie).

The discussion is of course wide-ranging, covering the GAC in general, but also touches on this issue specifically: Deckiller asks "I might be wrong, but delisted featured articles are automatically given GA status once again, correct?" and Homestarmy replies that "I've never seen delisted FA's automatically regain GA status, and because its not easily recorded which FA's were once GA's, trying to automatically relist delisted FA's which were once GA's might be problematic". They both are clearly working within a context and trying to reflect their then understanding of de facto practice as of 2007; but those two quoted sentences are the most immediate reason why a former FA does not revert to a GA absent a new GA review. These days, of course, {{ArticleHistory}} records the GAN and outcome, so a reversion to GA can easily be done automatically (by bot even), and certainly manually by a human.

And I agree with Sarah: it's nonsensical for an article to be considered no longer GA just because it's no longer FA. FAR does not review against the GA criteria, so if we wanted that to be the case (which I don't) it should go back to GA but with an automatic GAR. To me though, it seems ridiculous to do so: there is a great big gap between a GA and a FA (by design: see the linked discussion) so the likelyhood of an article that no longer meets the FA criteria also no longer meeting the GA criteria is pretty poor relative to the disruption and wasted effort this would cause. At most we should encourage FAR reviewers to nominate at GAR iff they think it necessary.

I propose the relevant bit be changed to something like: "Featured Article status supercedes Good Article status. An article that loses its Featured status does not automatically become a Good Article unless it was already a Good Article before the promotion to Featured Article. [Iff necessary we could add: If the article no longer meets even the GA criteria, it should be listed at GAR.]" For reference, the current wording is "a good article loses its status when promoted to a featured article. Accordingly, demoted featured articles are not automatically graded as good articles and must be reassessed for quality." --Xover (talk) 13:33, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Nice research! Thanks for doing that. I guess I'd be fine with the change, since ArticleHistory does give us the information in most (all?) cases. Pinging the active FAR coords to see if they have an opinion: Casliber, Nikkimaria, DrKay. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:43, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

I proposed years ago that FAs could be "demoted" to GA through and after FAC review years ago, but it gained little support. So it does seem like demoted FAs can not automatically become GAs. FunkMonk (talk) 13:51, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Automatic GA for demoted FAs seems like a bad idea -- some FAs devolve considerably due to editing, or new information about a subject cause them to be incomplete is ways that would fail GA also. But if the reviewers in the FAR explicitly think it meets GA but not FA, then that seems at least as supportable as the current GA review process. --RL0919 (talk) 14:21, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

@FunkMonk: Note that we're here discussing whether a GA that becomes FA and then, later, loses FA status goes back to being GA again. For the purposes of this discussion the only way to become GA is GAN: it's only a question of whether an article must go through a second GAN (or automatic GAR) after it is demoted from FA. Articles that were never GA would not become so without going through GAN. Whether it makes sense for a FAC that is archived as almost-but-not-quite to have some kind of special path to GA is a separate question. --Xover (talk) 14:30, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

I know, but even that (demoting former GAs to GA) was rejected in the discussion, which I unfortunately can't find. One argument was that a GA could have degraded prior to being FAC nominated. FunkMonk (talk) 14:32, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

If you can find the discussion that would be very helpful. However, I must note that there's a fallacy in that argument: any GA "could have degraded" at any given point in time. The way we deal with that is GAR. An article does not become any more or less degraded relative to the GA criteria just by failing a FAC or a FAR. And if a FAR reviewer or coord feels an article has degraded so far that its fulfillment of the GA criteria is in question, they can and should list it at GAR as well. In fact, if my above proposal is adopted, and the FAR coords thinks it a good idea, I'd be in favour of the coords listing articles at GAR as part of the closing procedure for failed FARs. Nobody is going to die if we miss a few substandard articles with an undeserved pretty icon in the top right: they will all end up at GAR or FAR eventually if not maintained. --Xover (talk) 14:42, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

I don't recall the full discussion and I haven't read this one or the last few, but the practice of the bots and the FAR coordinators is not to demote to GA status. There was some discussion at Wikipedia talk:Good article nominations/Archive 18#Demoted FAs and Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/archive 12#Demoting FAs to GAs. DrKay (talk) 14:54, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, DrKay. That's very useful history to have here. Given the acrimony the 2013 threads devolved into, I feel I should be clear: I am explicitly not suggesting that FAC/FAR have any role in GAN/GAR beyond possibly, if consensus is that that's desireable, to toss a badly failed FAR to GAR to also check the GA criteria. My proposal is that GAN/GAR is what determines GA status and FAC/FAR determines FA status. This is unlike the status quo where FAC/FAR effectively takes over an article once it's made FA (but a failed FAC automatically retains GA for some reason). By changing the assumption such that GA status, once obtained, is valid until and unless it fails GAR (not FAR), we reduce work and frustration for all parties (article writers not least of all). --Xover (talk) 19:23, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Generally when articles are demoted they are pretty well below FA standard, and I would suspect GA standard. Given there's been article deterioration, I think demoting to GA in these cases is a bad idea and that articles need to be rechecked against GA criteria (by being at GAN). But I can see a rationale for the other POV. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:30, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Community GAR is not a great process at the moment and I would not like it flooded with a lot of demoted featured articles. Most of the FAR co-ordinators are familiar with the GA criteria so I would rather they just made the call. It seems a bit redundant to review these articles twice. If they want a check or balance then all that needs to happen is a request for a potential GAR being made by putting the {{GAR request}} template on the talk page. Myself or someone else will get around to looking at it eventually. Having a review already conducted should make determining its status relatively easy. Another option is to just drop a note here or at WT:GAN so a GA reviewer can add their 2c as to whether it has devolved enough to no longer be considered good. This is supposed to be a lightweight process and it works best the more flexible we keep things. AIRcorn (talk) 19:42, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Xover's comments. There is a large gap between the two sets of criteria, and GAR can be conducted individually. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:45, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

WP procedure in assessing consensus is to revert to the status quo unless there is a clear consensus to overturn it. See various instructions such as closing RfM or RfC. Consequently, demoting an article should revert to the status quo, and the prior assessment. Comments from an FAR may specifically represent that an article may require further review (ie comments specifically indicate a need for GAR), in which case, it would be appropriate for the close to reflect same (with a warning against this being exercised as a WP:SUPERVOTE). At an FAR, commentors are addressing issues within the specific context of FA criteria. It would be inappropriate to construe their comments outside the context in which they were made. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 10:55, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Does anyone check IC during the GA process?

I'm wondering because I just removed three so called references from Gavin Newsom. They were there for saying he moved to Marin County with his mother after his parents divorced. Not one of the 3 IC said that in any which way or form. In fact, this one[1] doesn't even make ANY mention of Marin County....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 21:29, 27 January 2019 (UTC)