Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football

Not to be confused with Wikipedia talk:WikiProject American football, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian rules football, or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Canadian football.

RfC medals in infobox

Following up on this discussion, which medals should be included in the infobox of (association) footballers and national teams?

1. Olympics only
2. Olympics and other major multi-sports events (e.g. Mediterranean Games)
3. All international tournaments

Nehme₁₄₉₉ 16:03, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Olympics only if it's what other sports projects are doing (tennis, swimming, etc.) for consistency. Otherwise, all international tournaments. It would be very weird to include the Mediterranean Games but not the World Cup, for example. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 16:38, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Anything where you have a gold, silver and bronze. Other sports we include things like the World Games. If the international tournament doesn't follow this format, then it doesn't belong. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:11, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • @Lee Vilenski: {{Medal}} also has parameters for "Winner" and "Runner-up", not only gold, silver and bronze. So it's not necessarily true that a tournament that doesn't have a third-place match "doesn't belong". Nehme₁₄₉₉ 12:59, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
• Olympics only and no need to link the locations. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:13, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3 per Nehme, as other sports are doing it also and i see no reason to only include the olympics. Kante4 (talk) 18:20, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3 is the one we are using in almost every article, I don't see any reason to change it.Cracker-Kun (talk) 18:53, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 1 - Olympics only, otherwise where do we draw the line? It does not matter what other sports do. GiantSnowman 09:37, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3 It should not be restricted to only the Olympics or Mediterranean games. Sea Ane (talk) 15:52, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 1 the Olympics give actual medals, other competitions do not. Possibly also could include Olympic-like events e.g. Youth Olympics, Summer Universiade (universities version of Olympic Games) if they have football events. Joseph2302 (talk) 16:22, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
  • @Joseph2302: Competitions like the Asian Games, where football is an event, do give medals; see e.g. 2018 Asian Games medal table. Number 57 16:29, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3 - Actually, almost all competitions give out medals to the winners (well, sometimes they don't for when there is no match for a 3rd place match played, but 1st and 2nd get almost always medals, can't think of a tournament that they didn't to be honest, but I say "almost" in case I am missing some cases), but the point is that Olympics give only medals and not cups as trophies (unless people count souvenirs as trophies) and so people correlate Olympics with medals, because the tournaments in Olympics are not overshadowed by cups (medals only is still superb, by the way, and, of course, something much better than the old days, much less thorny, considering what the trophy used to be). I don't care if other sports are doing it, but I don't see why not all to not be added as long as you only need to click "show" so the medals to appear, as long as the articles don't look overwhelmed when you visit them... Nialarfatem (talk) 17:26, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3 per Nialarfatem. Also Template:Medals has parameters like "winner" and "runner-up" which could be used (and are used now) even if they didn't get medals. But they do get medals in every international competition and you would have to never watch a football tournament to say otherwise. Piotr Bart (talk) 21:36, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3 If other sports are doing it, we shouldn't restrict to Olympics only for consistence purposes. BristolTreeHouse (talk) 07:15, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 1 From what I remember it was created for the Olympics and should remain as such. Govvy (talk) 08:25, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
  • It appears to have been added without discussion in 2009 (there is nothing on the talk page from that time). Number 57 10:49, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3 per Nehme and Nialarfatem - other sports do, there is no requirement for the tournament to use medals, and the section says 'honours', not 'olympic medals' or whatever, so excluding major honours would just be a bit weird. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 10:08, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3 Why should football be different to other sports? It’s a sport just like any other after all!--Egghead06 (talk) 11:07, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3 Major international competitions such as the World Cup and Euros give medals, at least to the winning and second-placed teams, so no reason not to include them in the infobox. ComplexRational (talk) 21:33, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3 Keep consistency with other sports that use the same style. Comatmebro (talk) 22:13, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Non-diffusing categories

A user (@Mitch Ames:) has used AWB to remove valid categories such as Category:Greek football managers and Category:Australian soccer coaches from articles (now reverted). However, they were not tagged as non-diffusing, hence the confusion - should we run a bot or similar to tag all parent categories in Category:Association football managers by nationality (and Category:Association football players by nationality to avoid further confusion? GiantSnowman 06:11, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I'd say yes, if they should all have that, and my understanding is they should. Crowsus (talk) 12:03, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

WP:CATSPECIFIC is clear that articles ought not be in a category and its parent. I don't see the need for non-diffusing categories here, but if you think it appropriate, please add {{Non-diffusing subcategory}} and {{All included}} to the categories, to avoid the same "confusion" happening in future. Mitch Ames (talk) 00:18, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

In absence of {{Non-diffusing subcategory}} and {{All included}}, WP:CATSPECIFIC applies and the articles should be removed from the parent category. According to WP:LOCALCONSENSUS: participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope. Mitch Ames (talk) 10:25, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Mitch - no, the consensus is clear. Try and remove Category:English footballers from Category:England international footballers and see how many reverts/warnings you get from different users...the categories are non-diffusing, they just need to be tagged appropriately. GiantSnowman 10:37, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

they just need to be tagged appropriately — Then please do that. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:04, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Do the Universiade Games count for listing a player's nationality?

If a player has represented a country at the Universiade Games, does that count for listing a player's nationality? It's an internationally recognized tournament, just not a FIFA one, but technically the Olympics aren't FIFA either, but we would accept that for a player's nationality. Is it also acceptable for the infobox (i.e. "Country Universiade" #(#) or no?). I ask because I was editing Lukas MacNaughton and I was reverted on his club page for changing his nationality to Canada which he represented in those tournaments (nation of his birth USA also competed, but he didn't represent them). Some players do have it in their infobox, for example Reo Hatate RedPatch (talk) 22:33, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I would say yes, as it's same as playing for the country's youth team. If he'd played for Canada U-19s, then we'd list him as Canadian, so makes sense to be consistent for Universaide appearances. Joseph2302 (talk) 06:54, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

@RedPatch: Hello! I don't see why not. However, as far as I am concerned of, and as far as I know, I'd say the national team of the Universiade Games is an U23 national team (well, more or less, as obviously a university national team can have players with 23 or more years old, as universities are not age restricted, but the majority of its members will still be U23, so it can be considered an U23 national team), even though the age limit is at 28 and in the latest years the football tournaments of the Universiade had a limit at 25, but it's not so much like playing to the country's U-x (U23, U21, U20, U19) youth teams, as, while these national teams are made mainly of professional players, the Universiade national team is in the majority of its players or entirely an amateur national team, so for this reason I think Canada U23 (amateur) or Canada U25 (amateur) with a note linking to Universiade Games and/or explaining it was a university national team would-should be an acceptable better choice-alternative so also the age to be indicated, or just Canada Universiade (amateur) with a note indicating it's an U25 age-restricted national team, as I do think "amateur" is needed to differentiate it from professional national teams and the age is also needed so to follow the U-x format like all age restricted national teams in the infobox, unless the Canada Universiade is a hyperlink to an article explaining it's about an amateur university U25 national team or there is a note explaining this. Kind regards! Nialarfatem (talk) 01:25, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Seeking consensus on tables of international tournament

screenshot of a page of my previous editing 7.30

I have been trying to add a table of international tournament participated by footballers under the column of 'international career' on their page, however, my multiple edits were reverted by several other editors. They kindly reminded me that I need to seek for consensus here, but I don't really know how this works. I've seen similar tables in the Spanish language version wikipedia, and I think it helps massively when I check the pages of the players that I wasn't familiar with before, so it became an idea recently that I should add this to the English version Wiki, my original intention was that this could definitely help people. Peilin99 (talk) 15:48, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

If anything, we can find a way to incorporate this into the already existing International career statistics table. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 16:05, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

@Nehme1499: Thank you for your reply. Can I start doing this now? Does it count as we've reached consensus? or do I need more editors to approve? Peilin99 (talk) 16:19, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

@Peilin99: No obviously we need more input from other editors. This change wouldn't be a minor one, so it's best to take our time. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 16:21, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

I personally think this is an interesting idea and wouldn't be opposed to it but the career stats table mentioned by Nehme does seem to cover it already though. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 12:59, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

I remain unconvinced of the table's usefulness. I don't see the benefit. Robby.is.on (talk) 13:01, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Agree with Robby. Don't see the reason to include such a table. Kante4 (talk) 13:10, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

I have to also agree here: I also don't think there is a need for a separation of goals and appearances by international tournament, meaning I don't think it's essential, even though I can understand that to some people may be good info to know, i.e. the way we have it, matches and goals by year only, is good enough, unless someone convinces me this kind of granularity is crucial information. However, it must be said that listing the top participants and top goalscorers of a tournament in an article about the statistics-records of the tournament (or a section of its article) is a different thing, and a crucial part of the tournament... Nialarfatem (talk) 00:18, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't object to the standard international stats by year table being expanded to include the bits directly relevant to the player: i.e. tournament, apps, goals, but without the flags and the head coach. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 13:30, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Maybe as Struway2 suggests - can be done by adding a column to the International career statistics table detailing tournaments participated in (a notes column?) --SuperJew (talk) 18:59, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

I often try to do this by differentiating between competitive matches and friendlies, but I don't see any need to get any more granular by noting which major tournaments the player appeared in in a given year. – PeeJay 21:51, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't hate it but I think this might become overkill. Maybe better trying on a manager's stats table first? Rupert1904 (talk) 18:14, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Danny Makkelie

Hi folks. I could use more eyes at Danny Makkelie. An WP:SPA editor, Kleikema, has been edit-warring to remove criticism from the article. In my view, the criticism is both reliably sourced and WP:DUE: the penalty in England v Denmark match was widely discussed during the Euros.

At their Talk page, I have pointed out various relevant Wikipedia policies and guidelines such as Wikipedia:Verifiability, WP:DUE, and WP:BRD.

In light of WP:COI concerns, I have also asked the editor whether they know Makkelie "personally or professionally". Their emotionality and their username ("Kleikema" is an anagram of Makkelie) would suggest as much. They have not responded to the question. Robby.is.on (talk) 13:09, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Same counts for Robby who is clearly bashing Makkelie with offensive and one-sided look at the situation. Following a newspaper doesn’t mean it’s factual. And by including all kinds of peripheral information, the impression is strongly created that he intends to put makkelie in a bad light. Kleikema (talk) 13:35, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Following a newspaper doesn’t mean it’s factual. Wikipedia follows the sources. I have pointed out Wikipedia:Verifiability to you a few times now. Have you read it?

he intends to put makkelie in a bad light Stop making bad-faith accusations. WP:AGF is a basic tenet of Wikipedia. Robby.is.on (talk) 13:41, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Scottish club season articles - infobox

Hi everyone - Is there a specific MOS to Scottish football clubs that I'm unaware of and cannot seem to find? I ask this because in about 90% of infoboxes for Scottish clubs, the League Cup is always positioned above the Scottish Cup. Not only do I not like this as I think it suggests that the league cup is more prestigious or important than the national cup, but it's also against the MOS standard of League then National Cup and then League Cup. I've also found that a lot of footballers in Scotland who have won both cups, tend to have the League Cup positioned above the Scottish Cup in their honours section - which I think is a result of the incorrect positioning that's been done in the infobox. If there is a specific MOS for Scottish football to organize like this then that is one thing but if the argument is that the league cup in Scotland is finished before the national cup then that is not justifiable as that's the case in every country. Thanks. Rupert1904 (talk) 20:30, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

I fully agree with you. It has always perplexed me that the League Cup has been ranked above the Scottish Cup but I think some people put it that way because it is chronological. The Scottish Cup is cup one though and should be listed as such in the infobox. I didn't realise the MOS listed the national cup as the first cup otherwise I would've been bold and changed a few season articles. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 21:01, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Purely chronological. Its been since the Scottish task force was created, not that there are many editors left from that. Personally I don't think its positioning in info box denotes anything about prestige of a cup, although i am not overly bothered either way.Blethering Scot 21:06, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Most of the club/league season articles will just be a copy and paste of the previous season with a few numbers changed - so you probably shouldn't read too much into it. No objection to them being changed. Boothy m (talk) 16:08, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Okay, thanks all for feedback. I am going to start marking the Scottish Cup as cup1 in infoboxes that I cam across where this is not the case and also position it above the league cup in the body of the article is the MOS practice and as you see with clubs throughout the world who compete in both a national cup and league cup - England, Portugal, France, Japan, Qatar, etc. Rupert1904 (talk) 18:07, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Stadion Wiener Neustadt ≠ Wiener Neustadt Arena

Good evening, it's two stadium different stages: Stadion Wiener Neustadt (Demolished in 23 April 2020 [1], [2], [3]) ≠ Wiener Neustadt Arena (Opened in 28 September 2019 [4], [5]). Thank you. Arturo63 (talk) 22:34, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I don't see why one of these links in the section header is a redirect to the other linked article. Once one stadium opens before the other gets demolished, both stadiums temporarily exists at the same time so they should most definitely be different articles, if the "Wiener Neustadt Arena" article passes notability with notable sports history of it's tenants. Pinging @Robby.is.on: who I believe knows the language from these websites provided. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 09:58, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm happy to help. What can I do for you? :-) Robby.is.on (talk) 10:01, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

What these articles the original poster provided are saying, though now I realised I can translate them into English on the browser I'm using. I'm also wondering if I am right in saying what I said before. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 10:13, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Can we remove the redirect page [6]? Arturo63 (talk) 12:48, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

"US Secretary of Defense"

Not sure of the logic of these edits made by various IP's, this disruption (e.g. here) has been going on for a couple of days. A page protection should stop, however, the page history with when these edits were made shows many of us is in nighttime so many of you may be unaware of this except for me this morning. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 10:08, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Eugh, not the first time this has happened to a USA goalkeeper - if you recall Tim Howard in 2014. – PeeJay 22:00, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

It's because of her saves during the Olympics. If it was just once, it'd be just be a fun edit, but since it's continuously being changed I put in a request for page protection. RedPatch (talk) 22:09, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

@PeeJay: - yes I have now found when those edits were made on the Tim Howard - I wasn't registered on Wikipedia with my user name back then so I missed the similar editing pattern. With protection applied to the article back then and I'd noticed the same thing has indeed happened to recent disruptive editing, I hope there is no more disruption to the recent article. Also see Craig David where many IP addresses claimed he is a member of the archery team as the bow selector (e.g. this edit. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 08:17, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Oh yes, I see that the amount of saves that Tim Howard made and the Olympics saves this year could well be the reasons why these edits have been made. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 08:22, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Bow selector! lol, that did make me laugh know. Govvy (talk) 15:16, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

IP Range disruptive editing

Is there anything that can be done about an IP range or is it just something that is going to have to be monitored? IP starting 88.232 keeps editing football articles and nearly all the edits are disruptive. Just got one IP number banned for 32 hours but not sure looking at range history if that is going to be enough? Wondered if others have dealt with something like this before? — NZFC^(talk)(cont) 21:50, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

I've encountered this before, I just had to keep reporting. They just get progressively longer bans. One I dealt with got the following bans: 1 week->1 month->3 months->6 months->never came back RedPatch (talk) 21:58, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Annoying but understand. Will just keep an eye on the range. — NZFC^(talk)(cont) 01:13, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Mass creation of "Fooian expatriate footballers in bar" categories

See Special:Contributions/23shlomomaman23. Is this a desired categorization? Geschichte (talk) 07:32, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Was just coming here to post this - I think not, and I am sure there is consensus at CFD previously not to have categories like this. GiantSnowman 10:33, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Just notified the user at his talkpage that these are unwanted. --BlameRuiner (talk) 10:57, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Ben White career statistics table

I recently made this edit to Ben White's career statistics table, putting the U23 stats below the senior stats as he made his senior debut before his EFL Trophy debut, and adding rows for seasons where White did not play for Brighton's first team as per WP:FOOTY/Players (my recollection was there was no concensus in that discussion on Ike Ugbo, but lost track as that discussion was so long and Ugbo's seems to be including those rows with 0s, so I added them at White's article like that). The former part was reverted by Daemonickangaroo2018, with that rationale that 'under-23 should go first' and the latter by Mattythewhite. So, should (a) clubs in these tables be arranged chronologially, such that U23 goes below first-team when the player played for the first-team first, and (b) rows be included for the parent club even when they fail to play, as is shown in WP:FOOTY/Players. Many thanks, Microwave Anarchist (talk) 14:30, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

I think display the U23 stats above the senior club, and yes, 'empty' rows should be displayed when a player is out on loan as per MOS. GiantSnowman 15:44, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

looks like Ugbo is missing his U23 stats from the EFL Trophy on his page. also I was under the impression we would list the U23 stats under the senior team in a similar vein as loaned out stats.Muur (talk) 16:46, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't see why we're removing the "U21" part from the team that played in the EFL Trophy, when that's what the Soccerbase source describes the team as being in the 2018/19 season. And I can't see where the player MoS encourages us to include redundant rows where a player was out on loan the entire season? Mattythewhite (talk) 21:31, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

'empty' rows should be displayed when a player is out on loan as per MOS is per GiantSnowman's (and some other editors) reading of the MoS, while others don't read it that way as it is ambiguious regarding what to display for players out of loan. There was a big discussion about this in the past few months and no consensus was reached. --SuperJew (talk) 22:59, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

+1. Spike 'em (talk) 08:18, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

The MOS clearly has a 2010–11 parent row for Template United, even though the player was out on loan that season at Wiki City... GiantSnowman 08:28, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

This has been discussed at this discussion. Not the place to re-open it. My comment was only to state that the fact that you claim something doesn't make it true or consensus. --SuperJew (talk) 09:34, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

It is an indisputable fact that in the MOS there is a row for the 2010–11 season in the parent club entry and a row for the 2010–11 season in the loan club. GiantSnowman 10:45, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

That is true. But that in itself doesn't support the claim. Perhaps this theoratical player moved on loan to Wiki City mid-season and was eligible for Template United in the first half of the season? As I said, it's ambiguous without exact dates and without supporting prose and/or infobox. --SuperJew (talk) 11:39, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

1994 Malaysian football scandal

Came across this in the new page feed and wondered if there was an older article or another one to redirect too. At the moment, it's very flat information wise! I did think it could be a redirect to somewhere, I also felt that WP:NOTNEWS might also apply. Govvy (talk) 15:13, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Seems like the biggest scandal in Malasia, guess the article can be improved but stand on its own. -Koppapa (talk) 18:01, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

I would agree. Lifetime bans mean it was a big deal. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 18:15, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Match fixing in association football, if you did want to merge/redirect anywhere. GiantSnowman 18:22, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

I guess it has merit, certainly needs improvement if you ask me. Govvy (talk) 20:10, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Vannes

Could someone update the logo for Vannes OC? Thanks. Paul Vaurie (talk) 16:39, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Swansea City F.C. too. Paul Vaurie (talk) 16:40, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Have uploaded and added the Vannes logo. The new Swansea crest will only be used on the shirts. The main one stays the same. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 18:14, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. Paul Vaurie (talk) 16:07, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Pizzi

Pizzi (Portuguese footballer) was moved to Pizzi (footballer) without any discussion, and there are other footballers called Pizzi. Is this okay? SLBedit (talk) 16:44, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

I have reverted the move by @Nehme1499:. Worth a WP:RM. GiantSnowman 17:03, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Tino Livramento

Is he notable enough now to warrant an article? He just moved for £5 million to the Southampton first-team and is a member of the England U-20 team. Or should we wait until he makes his senior club debut? Thanks. Rupert1904 (talk) 17:11, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Does he meet WP:GNG? Signing for a big club / playing youth international football are not enough. GiantSnowman 17:16, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

This is why I am asking. I think there is a case for him to have an article now. To WP:GNG, there has been significant coverage of his move from reliable sources with it being covered in Sky Sports, The Guardian, the BBC, The Athletic, Eurosport, Daily Mail, etc and was given a squad number with the first-team at Southampton. He made 3 appearances in the 2020–21 EFL Trophy and was also on the bench for multiple Premier League games for Chelsea last season. Rupert1904 (talk) 17:24, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Transfer reports are not considered significant coverage. Anything about him? Daily Mail also not a RS. GiantSnowman 17:34, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

What do you mean by articles about him? And why are transfer reports not considered significant coverage? Is that a guideline? Seems like a strange policy and that you're suggesting these articles contain no information about the player? While I have actually found that a lot of the time, transfer related articles or new contract articles have the best information related to who players are, their backgrounds, their careers up to that point, etc. It's not like BBC is publishing a profile on a different footballer every day. Here are a few articles on Tino's background and his recent transfer and a couple other similar articles on players to expand on my point.

• • Football London (mentions his appearances in EFL Trophy): Who is Tino Livramento? Meet the rampaging wing-back on the bench for Chelsea vs Man City
  • Southampton (good overview of his career so far): Saints complete Livramento deal
  • The Athletic (this one specifically mentions him being a first-team player) Southampton sign Chelsea teenager Tino Livramento on five-year deal
  • Goal (this is the most in-depth piece on Tino's career): Tino Livramento: Why European clubs are queuing up to sign Chelsea's academy star
  • Leicester City (I used info from this piece to expand on Marc Albrighton's wiki article): Marc Albrighton new contract
  • Werder Bremen (I used this in creating Maik's article): Maik Nawrocki moves to Legia Warsaw on loan

Rupert1904 (talk) 22:48, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

I also see that you created Louie Barry's article in 2019 on the basis of him signing for Barcelona - even though he wasn't part of the first team there, never made an appearance for their senior side, and it was a further 18+ months before made a senior appearance after moving to Aston Villa. The notability standards for starting an article for a player seem murky at best. There's a lot of articles about Tino, he made three appearances in the 2020–21 EFL Trophy, made the bench for Chelsea in the Premier League last season, and has now been the subject of a sizable (for his age) transfer to another Premier League club where he has been included in the first-team. I'm going ahead and making an article for him. Rupert1904 (talk) 23:09, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Citations wanted - potential entries for List of footballers killed during World War II

Reposted and updated version of original now archived.

As main contributor to this article, I would like to flag up for attention of others on the project a number of candidates for the list that are already wiki-articled and known or believed to have been killed in or died as a result of circumstances brought on by the war (eg execution, in enemy captivity, effects of wounds etc) but which so far lack a reliable citation regarding their death which is preconditional to inclusion in the list. A few have no death circumstances described in the text of their article but I note have been put on category lists that suggest someone knew/believed they died in wartime circumstances. I also include those whose death circumstances are disputed - see their talk pages for further detail - and are in need of a conclusive ruling in or out.

• Dragutin Babic (Yugoslavia) - there is a source in Croat language but it is unclear to me it indicates manner of death
• Walter Berg (Germany) - alleged died in Soviet captivity after capture in war in 1949
• Josef Bergmaier (Germany)
• Henri Bierna (Belgium)
• Walter Claus-Oehler (Germany)
• Eddy de Neve (Netherlands) - also disputed death circumstance and identity
• Jozsef Eisenhoffer (Hungary) - also disputed death circumstances
• Hermann Flick (Germany)
• Franz Jelinek (Austria)
• Werner Klaas (Germany)
• Karol Kossok (Poland)
• Franz Krumm (Germany)
• Willi Lindner (Germany) - source in German language, not fully clear about death details
• Josef Madlmayer (Austria)
• Richard Malik (Germany)
• Alexander Martinek (Austria)
• Otto Martwig (Germany)
• Philip Meldon (Ireland) - disputed death details, not known to CWGC.
• Hans Mengel (Germany)
• Adam Obrubanski (Poland)
• Slavko Pavletic (Croatia)
• Mimis Pierrakos (Greece)
• Alfreds Plade (Latvia)
• Eriks Raisters (Latvia)
• Stasys Razma (Lithuania) - disputed death details
• Fyodor Rimsha (Russia)
• Janis Rozitis (Latvia)
• Holger Salin (Finland)
• Otto Siffling (Germany) - It is listed under the list on German Wikipedia, but says he died of pleurisy. I've added it here in case he is found to have served during the war.
• Aleksandrs Stankus (Latvia)
• Erwin Stührk (Germany) - disputable death date
• Willi Völker (Germany)
• Karl Wahlmuller (Austria)
• Heinz Warnken (Germany)
• Willi Wigold (Germany) - date of death is disputed

There may be additions coming onto the list so I encourage watch this space! Others are welcome to add. Please let us know if sources are found and added into their articles.Cloptonson (talk) 06:27, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Danny Ings

Please help with an imminent edit war on Danny Ings between myself and User:RossButsy. He is of the opinion that only the Aston Villa article about his transfer should be included as a citation, whereas I think that at least one other source independent of the club (preferably the BBC) should be cited. In my experience, club articles are fairly temporary and are taken down after a year or so, whereas BBC articles remain available online permanently. He also objects to any reference to a transfer fee with the rather bizarre logic: "the club source doesn’t mention a fee because there is no fee when it says undisclosed it stays as undisclosed". Any help with coming to common ground would be appreciated. Daemonickangaroo2018 (talk) 13:19, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

@Daemonickangaroo2018: Not every transfer has an immediate transfer fee circulating case in point this. Sky Sports news and their associated journalists didn’t mention any kind of transfer fee. Also how this transfer was very quickly announced is different to others where normally there would be days, weeks etc of speculation in those a fee would be reported where as this was announced and caught the public with a surprise. I’m fine with you removing the club article but I disagree with your opinion that they delete them after a year. I’ve made edits with club website posts still up to this day from two+ years ago. RossButsy (talk) 13:31, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

On the latter point, see the first citation in the AVFC section of the Ollie Watkins article, which is now a dead link after less than a year. Daemonickangaroo2018 (talk) 13:38, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

An independent source is always preferable, and there's nothing wrong with saying "the fee was reported as X" as long as sources agree and you haven't got the BBC saying it was £13m and Sky Sports saying it was £24m or something like that. – PeeJay 13:32, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Well some sources are doing exactly that. Guardian saying £26 million bbc saying £24 million. RossButsy (talk) 13:42, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

That's not true. Both the BBC and the Guardian are both saying the fee was £25m. And even if that weren't the case, when two similar fees are reported, they can both be mentioned in the article. – PeeJay 15:07, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Change it then. No Objections from me. Case closed. RossButsy (talk) 15:11, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

@RossButsy: Please learn to properly indent your comments so we know who you're replying to. – PeeJay 18:16, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

@Daemonickangaroo2018: Regarding the saying club articles are fairly temporary and are taken down after a year or so, that can be the case in a lot of stuff - many times sites reorganize their format and then links change around and they don't always bother redirecting (have had this on the A-League site, the clubs' sites, the FIFA site, FourFourTwo/FTBL, and many more). The solution is to create an archived version using a web crawler (like this one) if there isn't one already created automatically, and link it in the ref at the "archiveurl" parameter. --SuperJew (talk) 16:07, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Why not put both? "The transfer fee was not disclosed by the clubs. Figures ranging from X to Y were reported by the media." Oldelpaso (talk) 13:26, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Notability of canceled friendly matches

Are canceled friendly matches worthy of inclusion in club season articles? SLBedit (talk) 21:21, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

I would be fine to briefly include them in prose about the pre-season, but I don't think it is necessary to include them in results tables as they didn't actually happen. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 21:47, 5 August 2021 (UTC)