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*'''Delete''' per Agent 86. I don't understand why everyone wants Wikipedia to do the job of Wikinews. Newsworthiness is not notability and this is covered in the article about Mel Gibson. [[User:GassyGuy|GassyGuy]] 06:35, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per Agent 86. I don't understand why everyone wants Wikipedia to do the job of Wikinews. Newsworthiness is not notability and this is covered in the article about Mel Gibson. [[User:GassyGuy|GassyGuy]] 06:35, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. The existence of this article makes a fine example of [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias|systemic bias]]: we tend to fix too much our attention to what happens just now, to famous, mostly American, people. This incident is very important in the life of Mel Gibson, and perhaps in the life of people especially liking or resenting him. As for the world at large, it is just one of millions of similar accidents happening every day, affecting just the life of the people involved. So, this is an event pertaining to Gibson, and as such should be covered in the article about him. --[[User:Goochelaar|Goochelaar]] 09:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. The existence of this article makes a fine example of [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias|systemic bias]]: we tend to fix too much our attention to what happens just now, to famous, mostly American, people. This incident is very important in the life of Mel Gibson, and perhaps in the life of people especially liking or resenting him. As for the world at large, it is just one of millions of similar accidents happening every day, affecting just the life of the people involved. So, this is an event pertaining to Gibson, and as such should be covered in the article about him. --[[User:Goochelaar|Goochelaar]] 09:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
**I always compare this logic to pulling up the first plants that sprout, because for the sake of symmetry they all must sprout at the very same time. You don't counter systemic bias by deleting what people have already written; you counter it by writing more in underdeveloped areas. [[User:Everyking|Everyking]] 10:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Revision as of 10:10, 7 February 2007

Mel Gibson DUI incident

Mel Gibson DUI incident (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

These sorts of pages sugarcoat the issue and make it unnecessarily hard to navigate. This information, at its core, involves one man, really. Mel Gibson. None of the officers are notable, nor did they do notable things. The article involves only one notable person. All of it should be at Mel Gibson. After the consensus at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michael Richards Laugh Factory incident it seemed a good time to gauge consensus here, following my attempt at a merge several months ago that didn't generate much debate-Mask 07:40, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep - clearly a major and controversial event that received widespread news coverage. The article is well-sourced and verified, and while I accept that coverage of news events has to be limited, there are plenty of news events that currently have their own articles. It's written in an encyclopedic style, and I can't see any reason to delete. Walton monarchist89 09:13, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Point- its not a delete, really, just a merge. -Mask
      • Then you should not have come here. This is Articles for deletion. Article merger does not involve deletion at any stage of the process. Only come to AFD if an administrator hitting a delete button is what you actually want. Uncle G 10:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC}
  • When more consensus is needed or if there are strong feelings involved, an AfD is perfectly suitable for a merge. kthxbye. -Mask
  • Point. In order to point out how wrongheaded articles articles such as the "Mel Gibson DUI incident" and the "Michael Richards Laugh Factory incident" are, consider whether there should now be a Wikipedia article on the "Lisa Nowak attempted kidnapping incident." Of course there should not be any such article. But her incident is receiving a lot of news coverage. Her relation to her incident is in many ways the same as Michael Richards' and Mel Gibson's relationships to their incidents. She too has celebrity status. Bus stop 16:34, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The nuclear test would be notable for any non-nuclear country. Would a guy blowing up during an arrest be notable if he were not a celebrity? this incident is notable solely for Gibson himself, and belongs at his article. -Mask
  • Point. I don't think there should be an additional Lisa Nowak article, about her recent incident, and I don't think you think there should be one either. You haven't cited any reasons why you think there should be a separate article on the Lisa Nowak incident. What do you see in common between the North Korean nuclear test and Mel Gibson's arrest for drunken driving and his antisemitic comments? Mel Gibson is one individual. He is not a country. And I don't recognize the comparison between the antisemitic mumblings of a drunk and the very sobering fact of the detonation of a nuclear device. Bus stop 19:39, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This is a fairly well-known incident, the article itself seems comprehensive and well-referenced. fraggle 09:20, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep without merging. The article contains way too much material for it to make sense to merge it into Mel Gibson, and most of it seems to be worth keeping. None of the officers or other related parties need to be notable to be covered in an article about the incident. (Their relative non-notability would only preclude individual articles about them). –Sommers (Talk) 09:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete This is not wikinews or wikitrivia or wikipeoplemagazine. The event is and can be more than amply covered in the main Mel Gibson article, and I see no need for every celebrity run-in with the law. Borrowing what User:Barno said in the Michael Richards Laugh Factory incident AfD, the parent article can more than amply accommodate what will likely be a matter of little lasting significance. If “incidents” associated with Lenny Bruce or Jim Morrison are covered well enough in the article on those individuals, the same goes for Mel Gibson or Stephen Colbert. Like the Michael Richards article, most of “well-sourced and verified” “comprehensive” material in this article is mostly just a pile-on of media reports. A judicious copy-edit when merging whatever is savageable can deal with the fact there is "too much material". Agent 86 10:29, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete "Well-sourced" (or "well-referenced") is not an argument to keep this article; it can and should be just as well-sourced in one article under Mel Gibson. "Too much" information is too much information whether in this article or in the Mel Gibson article; judicious trimming back would serve either article well. Mel Gibson was driving drunk. Mel Gibson muttered antisemitic statements. That is not the subject for a stand alone encyclopedia article. The correct perspective is to see the "Mel Gibson DUI incident" in the context of the life of Mel Gibson. The incorrect perspective is to see the life of Mel Gibson as an appendage to the "Mel Gibson DUI incident." Bus stop 13:44, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge the essential information. No need to create entire articles everytime a "celebrity" does something. Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 14:19, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep without merging. Still a major event that continues to have ramifications and is still referenced whenever a celebrity flies off the handle (see Michael Richards, the guy from Grey's Anatomy, and I even heard watercooler chat comparing Governor Arnold's office tapes to it). If there's an issue with how the content is presented and any so-called "sugar coating" (though one must be careful to not mistake sugar coating for an attempt at NPOV and avoiding WP:BLP issues) that should be handled via WP:BOLD.23skidoo 16:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Point. Fine -- it did "incredible damage to a very notable person's reputation." Isn't the question: in what context that "damage" is to be seen? Is that damage to be seen in the context of this one-day incident? No. The correct context in which that "damage" is to be seen is within the context of the entire lifetime of Mel Gibson. Bus stop 16:42, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mel Gibson has hidden his true nature from the public his whole life. This incident fundamentally alters how the public views him. It changes the context of what is really known about his life. It reveals his previous history as a lie. Nardman1 16:45, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Point. In point of fact Mel Gibson has long been considered by some to have antisemitic tendencies. But even if that were not so, I don't think biographies of living people should receive branch articles when some editors feel the subject of the article has reached a significantly different stage of life. I think we still have to respect the biological integrity of one person's life. Bus stop 17:06, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • If such articles are properly sourced to indicate that the incident being discussed is notable on its own, and has sufficient independent published references, then why is it a "bad precedent" to allow those articles if their text is too large to incorporate in the main article? I generally have no issues with articles that are well sourced and on notable events. Dugwiki 21:13, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The article appears to be well referenced and sourced, and the article also seems to indicate the incident in and of its own right meets notability guidlines. So this article seems to be a perfectly acceptable and notable topic. Not a good candidate for deletion, just my opinion. Dugwiki 21:10, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Point. I think the primary questions involve context and perspective. Those are the things that shift whether the article receives it's own heading or whether the article is seen under the heading of an article on Mel Gibson. The incident written in this article does not stand alone, apart from Mel Gibson. It is firmly attached to the life of Mel Gibson. That is the proper heading. We should see this incident from the perspective of the life of Mel Gibson. Bus stop 21:27, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Mel Gibson is the central character in the event, but that does not mean that the event isn't notable enough on its own to warrant its own article. As an analogy, the article John F. Kennedy assassination is clearly an article that is squarely centered on John F. Kennedy (or, if you prefer, Lee Harvey Oswald). However clearly that doesn't necessarilly imply that the article about the event needs to be merged with the articles about the people associated with the event. I doubt anyone is seriously looking to merge that article into the JFK main article, for example.
As another example, consider this from a reader's perspective. It certainly seems possible, I think, that a reader will be interested in searching for information about this incident without having much interest in reading about Mel Gibson himself or even caring much about Mel Gibson's career or biography. Since the amount of information about this event is large enough that it can fill its own article page, by splitting it off into a subarticle you are allowing readers to focus on reading about just the event without having to sift through everything else associated with Mel Gibson in his main article.
Thus I disagree with the assertion that an otherwise well sourced and sufficiently large article about an event that received extended international media coverage needs to be deleted, nor do I find any part of policy or in the guidelines that suggests it. Dugwiki 22:23, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Point. Dugwiki -- The reader would not have to "sift through everything else" to find information about the DUI incident in the main article because it would all be found in one area. For what reason would the facts of that incident not be in contiguous paragraphs within the main article on Mel Gibson? The assassination of John F. Kennedy by Lee Harvey Oswald does not compare with Mel Gibson's drunken driving incident, even with the utterances of antisemitic sentiments. It is an incident of a totally different order. One is the president of the United States. The other is not. One is still alive. The other's life is not over. Bus stop 00:12, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete WP:NOT specifically discourages the creation of articles on current events which may eventually become obsolete. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a supplement to the National Enquirer. Thousands of people are arrested for DUI every year, and I would suspect that many of them get upset and say inappropriate things to the arresting officers. There is nothing NOTABLE about this type of incident. The only thing which is notable in this event is Mel Gibson. By giving this incident its own seperate article, Wikipedia is giving an undue amount of WEIGHT to a negative incident in this living person's life, which runs contrary to WP:BLP. Unlike other celebrity bios on Wikipedia which frequently contain ONE "Controversy" section; Gibson's bio is over run with sections which seem to push the POV that he is a homophobe, a racist, anti-semetic,a drug addict and an alcoholic. As IF that isn't bad enough - there is ALSO this free-standing article, which has provided an additional platform for editors to label him an anti-semite. The excessive amount of space that Wikipedia has dedicated to this type of material about this LIVING PERSON constitutes attempted defamation of character in my opinion. Clearly, more than 75% of Wikipedia's editorial "space" dedicated to Mel Gibson paints him in a very negative light and, therefore, cannot be considered NUETRAL and OBJECTIVE. This article's very existence creates a weight issue that runs contrary to Wikipedia's own policy on WP:BLP Cleo123 21:54, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • To reply, WP:NOT only talks about not writing opinions on current affiars that might quickly become obsolete. The policy, however, does not talk about the actual information and facts of a news event becoming obsolete. So while you shouldn't write an opinion piece about whether or not Mel Gibson behaved badly, for example, you can write an article about a news event involving Mel Gibson provided it has sufficient sourcing and is large enough and has enough detail to warrant being split from the main article. I also do not agree with the assertion that the article's existence in principle somehow "gives undue weight" to a possible negative aspect of Mel Gibson's character. So long as the article refers to the actual facts of the event, as reported by verifiable published sources, and doesn't delve into personal editorial opinion, there is no issue here in regards to undue negative impact. Dugwiki 22:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think you are missing my point. The article should not have been created in the first place and it has become a platform for opinions, including those of a blogger for goodness sake! Of course, the article is detailed and well-sourced, I'm sure there has been considerable edit warring in its creation. I think Wikipedia should be steering clear of this type of article in general. It is not encyclopedic material. Thousands of people are arrested for DUI each year, why not write articles about them? Surely, there are reliable sources to be found in local newspapers. Just because there are sources to be found, it doesn't make the incident worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia. Is this current event continuing to receive media attention? No, it isn't, because it doesn't have lasting significance. Why doesn't Wikipedia have a Zsa Zsa Gabor slap incident article? Or a Brandy car accident incident? By singling out this one celebrity in particular Wikipedia is demonstrating an editorial BIAS against him. Cleo123 23:07, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The above argument assumes incorrectly that the thousands of DUI arrests actually receive sufficient, reliable, multiple notable published coverage in news publications. Clearly the coverage of this DUI incident is much greater than a normal DUI incident. So noone is arguing that all DUI incidents should have their own article. I'm arguing that this DUI incident should. Dugwiki 23:14, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Point. I think that just judging by two articles of this sort, namely the Michael Richards article and the Mel Gibson article, it seems to me that the reason for both of those articles as separate, "breakaway" articles, to focus on one negative incident, is to heap a special dose of shame on these people. I feel that articles of this sort are motivated, perhaps unconsciously, by deeply held sentiments concerning what is right and what is wrong. I can't prove that. But I am cynical of alternate explanations. Many people are outraged by the things said by Michael Richards and Mel Gibson about certain groups within the larger society. It is not too far fetched a hypothesis that people are motivated to set things right by highlighting such shameful speech in a separate article. But Wikipedia should resist this. Bus stop 00:35, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment My question above was a serious one, and I'm not at all surprised to see that it has gone unanswered. To answer this question is to be completely honest about what motivated the creation of this stand alone article in the first place. My question hits at the very core of this matter. The article is not about someone being arrested for DUI, it is an excuse for editors to elaborate on the theme that Gibson is a racist. By giving undue weight to such material, Wikipedia is not only defaming Gibson's character but aggrevating race relations by serving as a forum for debate among editors whereby individuals can be labelled racists. Cleo123 02:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - The article is well-sourced (WP:V), WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, and passes WP:Notability based on the multiple instances of non-trivial coverage in reliable sources. I see no valid reason for deletion. Also note, please, that the nominator actually intended WP:MERGE of this article. However, I don't think it ought to be merged as the subject-matter passes WP:Notability on its own (the sources are about the incident itself, not just about Mel Gibson generally). Black Falcon 22:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Point. -- Oakshade -- The deletion of the Michael Richards "breakaway" article is not "precedent" for deletion of this article. The facts in this article are properly a part of the article covering the life of Mel Gibson. Bus stop 06:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Point. -- Oakshade -- Not at all. The editorial decisions as to what should stay and what should be excised from this article should be made in the context of the main article, which concerns itself with the entirety of the life of the person named Mel Gibson. The perspective in this article is all wrong. It is not the content that I "don't like." It is the context that I take exception to. I never said it was not "notable." It is notable in the context of the main article. That is the preferable perspective, in my opinion. Bus stop 07:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I actually agree that it's unfortunate that a shameful event in someone's life is highlighted, but again, that would be a WP:IDONTLIKEIT arguement to delete. As WP:NOTE states "...the primary notability criterion is a way to determine whether 'the world' has judged a topic to be notable." When there are multiple published works primarily about a topic, "the world" deemed that topic notable whether we think its sad or not. And there's too much subject-specific information in this article to be included in the Mel Gibson article. --Oakshade 07:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • GassyGuy is correct. You are confusing news worthiness with notability. This event has no lasting significance. Although there will be more biographies published about Gibson, I sincerely doubt that any books will be written on the DUI incident. Regardless, no author would dedicate 75% of a biography on Gibson to the incident. Why should Wikipedia? The incident has no lasting notability or impact on anyone other than Gibson, possibly, and does not belong as a seperate article in any legitimate encyclopedia. Cleo123 07:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think you're really reaching. If I were to follow your logic, we should create a seperate article on the Paris Exposed.com story or any other news item that receives global news coverage, based upon your interpretation of notability. I appreciate your honesty in saying that you see it as a case of modern anti-semitism. I think, however, that you defeat your own argument with your candor. Wikipedia reports facts. It is not a repository for cataloging the racial opinions of the well known. It is a misuse of Wikipedia, for ethnic groups to use it as a tool to label and catalogue racists and anti- semites. Potential damage and defamation to the character of living people outweighs any legitimate "need" for this sort of article. Cleo123 08:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Agent 86. I don't understand why everyone wants Wikipedia to do the job of Wikinews. Newsworthiness is not notability and this is covered in the article about Mel Gibson. GassyGuy 06:35, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The existence of this article makes a fine example of systemic bias: we tend to fix too much our attention to what happens just now, to famous, mostly American, people. This incident is very important in the life of Mel Gibson, and perhaps in the life of people especially liking or resenting him. As for the world at large, it is just one of millions of similar accidents happening every day, affecting just the life of the people involved. So, this is an event pertaining to Gibson, and as such should be covered in the article about him. --Goochelaar 09:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I always compare this logic to pulling up the first plants that sprout, because for the sake of symmetry they all must sprout at the very same time. You don't counter systemic bias by deleting what people have already written; you counter it by writing more in underdeveloped areas. Everyking 10:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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