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Summary of Military history WikiProject open tasks watch · edit · full list News and announcements The 2024 coordinator election has begun with voting open until 29 September. The September newsletter is now available. Editors are advised that Featured Articles promoted before 2016 are in need of review, if you had an article promoted to Featured status on or before 2016 please check and update your article before they are listed at FAR/C. Current discussions No major discussions are open at the moment Featured article candidates Battle of Saipan • German atrocities committed against Soviet prisoners of war • The Motherland Calls • Battle of Lake Providence • Jochi • Yugoslav torpedo boat T6 • Robert Poore • Chagatai Khan Featured article review Byzantine Empire • Edward I of England • Northrop YF-23 • Middle Ages • Thomas C. Hindman • Isaac Brock • Pre-dreadnought battleship Featured picture candidates Thorsten Nordenfelt A-Class review Henry Biard • Miyoshi Nagayoshi • Ernest J. King • Lockheed YF-22 • SPARS • USS Texas (BB-35) Peer reviews Henry Clay Work • Charles the Bold • 1939 Liechtenstein putsch • Sher Shah Suri • Rwandan genocide • Battle of Sark Good article nominees Aérospatiale SA 330 Puma • 1864 Washington Arsenal explosion • Felek al-Din Dündar • Roswell incident • Mohammad Shah Qajar • Gubir shootdown • Eleanor of Castile • Soldiers' and Sailors' Arch • Northrop B-2 Spirit • Battle of Ekiokpagha • Simon Stuart (general) • 170th Rifle Division (Soviet Union) • Dabney Coleman • Benin Air Force • Battle of Mosul (2016–2017) • Crusading movement • Battle of Thorgo • Jarrett Robertson • Tel al-Sultan attack • Charles Keating IV • Sack of Delhi (1757) • Black and Tans • Diaspora Revolt • Peruvian cruiser Lima • Castlereagh–Canning duel • Ottoman minelayer Intibah • Ottoman destroyer Yarhisar • Piri Reis • Eunus • Patrick J. Ryan (chaplain) • George Preece • Francis L. Sampson • HMS Regulus (1785) • Spanish Christian–Muslim War of 1172–1212 • Italian Campaign of 1796–1797 • Pandour Corps • Central Powers Good article reassessments Battle of the Yarmuk • Battle of Plataea • Siege of Szigetvár • Mehmed II's Albanian campaign • Manley Power • USS Texas (BB-35) • George W. Bush Articles that need... work on referencing and citation (148,536) • only work on referencing and citation (43,237) • work on coverage and accuracy (123,873) • only work on coverage and accuracy (19,905) • work on structure (31,874) • only work on structure (361) • work on grammar (8,172) • only work on grammar (46) • work on supporting materials (32,941) • only work on supporting materials (1,337) • assessment (8) • assessment as lists (7) • project tags fixed (2) • assessment checklists added (1) • assessment checklists completed (2) • task forces added (3) • attention to task force coverage (655)

Assistance requested

Hello everyone, I'm working on revamping a lot of the TA units for the British Army (or Army Reserve) which have been left out. I just finished the 30th (Lowland) Independent Armoured Brigade, but I'm requesting assistance regarding the brigade's history. Any help is welcome! Coldstreamer20 (talk) 19:44, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Ah, why are you using orbat.info, Coldstreamer20? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:48, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

That's the site where the link is, but the works are by Dr. Graham Watson. So, in short, the website where you can actually find it is on that website, but it's an independent publication by a very well known author. I'm sure it looks strange that way. Coldstreamer20 (talk) 13:39, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

How do you know that Watson is the author, Coldstreamer20? What is the title of the independent publication that this content reproduces? There is nothing on this page (for example) that indicates who is responsible for the content hosted there or that it is extracted from another publication. Can you provide some links that show what you are saying is correct? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:20, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't add that, that had been on the page, I had nothing to do with that part. I only did the Post-War section. My bad, I thought you meant here. I don't use the order of battle website, it's very unreliable, I agree with you there, that happened to be on the page. I mean I thought "Retrieved 9 August 2018." kind-of gave it away as something I hadn't actually done. I just needed the post-war help with. Sorry for the confusion. Coldstreamer20 (talk) 04:59, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Note: this is what I added (at least the main changes) here. Coldstreamer20 (talk) 05:00, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Making a Wikiproject

Hi, I am making a WikiProject named Millitary Policies, the name says everything so I need some help in making the WikiProject Yodas henchman (talk) 00:37, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

G’day, military policies fall under this project. Our Military science, technology, and theory task force and National militaries task force are both relevant. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:40, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Alright, thanks! Yodas henchman (talk) 03:15, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree, this would be a redundant exercise. -Indy beetle (talk) 02:50, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

User:Coldstreamer20 (J-Man11) and WP:PRIMARYSOURCES

The 1991 British Army Master Order of Battle is a WP:PRIMARYSOURCE, which WP guidelines specifically instruct us *not* to use.

In accordance with previous concerns raised about Coldstreamer20 (J-Man11) at places like Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive334#Proposal for topic ban: J-Man11 and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Archive 161#Repeated massive, shoddy additions by J-Man11, I advised him on his new Coldstreamer20 talkpage (User talk:Coldstreamer20#Smaller unit Templates) on 4 January, several days ago, that he should not use the 1991 Master Order of Battle, in view of longstanding WP:CIR - Competence Is Required - concerns.

Now I find it utilized and added at 51st Infantry Brigade and Headquarters Scotland, on 8 January, after my warning. This breaches at least two sub-clauses of WP:PRIMARY, those being:

• "A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge."
• "Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so." In particular, the late 1980s unit listing that I have just removed from the 51 Brigade article was a synthesis and interpretation based among other sources on the 1991 Master Order of Battle - which was issued *after* the date of the claimed unit listing.

I was advised after the last post at WP:AN to seek a WP:CR - closure request, for a site topic ban for Coldstreamer20 / J-Man11 for any military topics after 1850.

I would now like to seek any additional opinions from any interested editors regarding this potential site topic ban. I will advise Coldstreamer20/J-Man11 of this post. Buckshot06 (talk) 08:33, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Any discussion of a community ban should take place at WP:ANI or WP:AN (per WP:CBAN). Nick-D (talk) 08:53, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. This is not the forum for this. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:15, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Ditto. Cinderella157 (talk) 10:17, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you all. Having now gone along to WP:CBAN in accordance with Nick's note, I shall relocate this discussion. Buckshot06 (talk) 11:51, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

A copy of the above post and a (second) request for a topic ban can now be found at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#User:Coldstreamer20 (J-Man11) - repeat my request for a topic ban. Any interested editors are encouraged to comment there. Buckshot06 (talk) 11:59, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Pronunciation key for "Gneisenau"

I think it would be helpful to add a pronunciation note for articles with Gneisenau in the title. It seems most English speakers mispronounce it with a silent G, and I do not believe it should be assumed that English speakers know that most letters are not silent in German. However I am not 100% sure on this and the help of German speakers or other experts would be much appreciated to render it in IPA.

Relevant articles can be found at the Gneisenau DAB page, but I think the most important would be:

• August Neidhardt von Gneisenau, namesake of those in the disambig
• German battleship Gneisenau, the most popular ship with his name

Thank you for your consideration. 9³ (talk) 03:12, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

A pronunciation key is probably needed for uncommon foreign words and names if there is any doubt, imo. But double check WP:MOSPRON in the "Appropriate use" section. Regards, -Fnlayson (talk) 03:49, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, I believe it would satisfy appropriateness as a foreign name that is not common, on par with Khrushchev. I would also argue it is counterintuitive due to "gn" usually being pronounced as /n/ in English as in gneiss, gnome, or Gnosticism. To minimize intrusiveness I would add it as an explanatory footnote for the two pages bulleted above.

I don't know German but here is a draft IPA made using a YouTube recording, German phonology and Help:IPA/Standard German:

German pronunciation: [ˈgnaɪ̯zɛnaʊ̯]

Thanks, 9³ (talk) 05:02, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

If you still need a German speaker to confirm, the folks at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language should be able to help. Alansplodge (talk) 15:38, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, opened a discussion there. 9³ (talk) 22:33, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

• Hello, former German student hier! I'm no phonetics expert but the G in Gneisenau is certainly pronounced. -Indy beetle (talk) 04:56, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Request for Comments at Sri Lanka Armed Forces

A Request for Comments on statements about human rights violations by the Sri Lanka Armed Forces has been posted at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sri_Lanka_Armed_Forces#RFC_on_Human_Rights_Violation

Your participation is invited. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:08, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Help with user refusing to source or discuss edits

Anonimus Croatus (talk · contribs) is edit warring at Armed Forces of Croatia‎‎, Croatian Army‎‎ and related articles to be found in their list of user contributions. I have been reverting them and have posted at ANI, but in the mean time I'd appreciate some support with rolling them back. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 14:53, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

User has now been blocked by an admin. Thanks to anybody who rolled stuff back. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:12, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Old A-class articles

I don't know if this is the most appropriate place to ask this, but ... Okay, during the early days of Wikipedia (long before I was here), few other Wikiprojects like Bio and Math used to have their own A-class reviewing system (See this and this). Articles like Alan Keyes and Peano axioms were successfully nominated, and are yet rated A-class, when, in my opinion, they don't even meet GA criteria. Since all other Wikiproject A-class review system are marked historical, I was wondering what is the process to re-assess/delist them? I asked this in Wikiproject Bio, but was suggested to ask the same here. Thanks! – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 18:29, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

If there's no A-class process, I don't think anyone can object to unilateral delisting. WP:IAR and the articles clearly do not meet A-class by any reasonable definition. I reasesessed the Keyes article as C-class. (t · c) buidhe 00:15, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

G'day Kavyansh.Singh. This project has an operational A-Class delisting process, and if someone thinks a Milhist article is sub-standard they need to use that, but if another project doesn't have an existing process for A-Class, and it is currently a GA, then the article should be put through a WP:GAR, individual or community, and at the end of that re-assessed where it currently sits. If it isn't a GA as well as A-Class, then presumably you can re-assess it in the normal way. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:08, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I've started a GAR for Alan Keyes. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 09:57, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

• Re non-milihst A-class reviews in general, they tend to be done unilaterally and without proper consideration for what A class "should" probably be. Technically, A class is a criteria which can be defined by any project, but since milhist has been so active in this regard and we've moved towards near-FA standards we've set a really high bar for the rest of the project (though we make mistakes). Thus it can mislead editors to list an article as A class without any formal review, since it can appear on the surface a better rating than GA. I'll try and stop someone from listing an article as A across multiple project quality ratings. If someone from a specific project gave it that rating on behalf of their project, it might be worthwhile to consult them on their reasoning and explain why you think the article is faulty. Recent attempts to revive or create A-class procedures in other projects have generally fallen flat. It is useful to look at the June 2018 edition of WikiProject Conservatism's The Right Stuff, where it celebrates the passing of its first A-class article (and only one to date) alongside lots of whining about ANI proceedings with grievances from other editors of the project's gratuitous backslapping and ideological bias which it appears eventually killed the project (though the ANI itself was inconclusive). Long term that kind of A-class system would've certainly become a system of rubber-stamping. I know SandyGeorgia has expressed some worries about friends helping friends at FA in the past. As editors (not MilHist members), we should not allow the rating system to be misused. -Indy beetle (talk) 07:39, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Feel free to Contribute!

Hello there everyone, I'm working on a sandbox here: User:Coldstreamer20/Structure of the Japanese Self Defence Force regarding the structure of the Japanese Army in 2018, with changes to the end of 2021. I'm hereby asking anyone who has further references to feel free to contribute. I would ask that if you do you add a comment at the top of the page and sign it or add a small brief of what was added/removed, etc. Or new units in italics and removed units to be crossed out. Any help is welcome, thanks all! Cheers, Coldstreamer20, feel free to chat here or see my made pages! 04:06, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Trying to identify a VC winner from Gallipoli

Hi. I have just uploaded a series of images from the Second World War about a ceremony linked to the Gallipoli landings in the First World War. Some of the images, such as this one show a " Sergeant Dick Richards, VC," from the Lancashire Fusiliers, who earned his Victoria Cross at the landing on "W" beach at Gallipoli. I have consulted the lists of VC winners but I can't find his name. The closest I can get is Alfred Joseph Richards, whose story sounds similar to how the Imperial War Museum describes Dick's story. Does anyone have any sources available that would suggest whether Alfred also used "Dick" as a nickname? From Hill To Shore (talk) 17:40, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Anyone with the surname of Richards is highly likely to be nicknamed Dick. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:44, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Almost certainly him, based on regiment and VC event, apparent age, medal ribbons, that Richards served in WWII and lost his leg and this fellow has a cane. All OR of course, but too many coincidences to be someone else. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:50, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Experienced eyes needed at List of major arms industry corporations by country

There doesn't seem to be any inclusion or exclusion criteria. I recently removed the entire North Korea section as none of the listed entities are actual companies and they were also all redlinks. The page is regularly edited by only a handfull of editors. I tried to raise a concern about inline external links and WP:WTAF on the talk page but got no response at all. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 10:27, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

I've just removed the Australian government's space agency, and an Australian small arms company that hasn't existed since the mid-2000s. This article is full of total rubbish. Nick-D (talk) 10:33, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

@Nick-D There seem to be several space agencies and other government/state institutions all over the page. I'll remove the ones I find. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 15:08, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

The whole article is a real throwback to 2000s-era Wikipedia, where we had lots of articles providing semi-random lists of things with no supporting references. Nick-D (talk) 21:46, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

It seems to lack any attempt at referencing. Is it serving a purpose? Gog the Mild (talk) 21:52, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Those external links in the body... wow, that's really bad. I say nuke it and start over (or just nuke it, period). Trainsandotherthings (talk) 22:09, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Agree on nuke. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 22:14, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

RAF question

I posted this at Royal Auxiliary Air Force, but I suspect that page doesn't have enough traffic for me to get an answer to the question, so I thought I'd try here. Currently Royal Air Force Reserve redirects to Royal Auxiliary Air Force, but in Royal Auxiliary Air Force's "Formation" section we have "The Royal Air Force Reserve (RAFR) differs in that its members...", with the link going to Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. If "Royal Air Force Reserve" is usually read to mean the RAFR, shouldn't the redirect from Royal Air Force Reserve go there rather than to Royal Auxiliary Air Force? This came up because T. Stanhope Sprigg, according to a source I have, was in the Royal Air Force Reserve at the start of WWII, and I don't know which article that ought to link to. Thanks for any help. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:45, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

In my opinion Royal Air Force Reserve should be a redirect to Regular Reserve (United Kingdom)#Air Force Reserve, as we have no specific articles for the separate British regular reserves which comprise the RAFR, Royal Fleet Reserve and the Regular Reserve - though I may be a little out of date and the latter may be "Army Reserve (Regular)"? The RAAF is the air force volunteer (part-time) reserve. The RAFVR was originally another volunteer reserve force but now exists only to host the university squadrons and glider and flight experience squadrons for the cadets, it is not liable to call-up. Your man Sprigg was in the RAFVR, he left as a squadron leader in 1954, though was granted the use of higher rank of wing commander - Dumelow (talk) 18:05, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. I've fixed the link from the article on Sprigg. I'll leave the redirects to someone who knows more about them. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:26, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

A little help?

G'day all, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Coordinators#AutoCheck report for November still has a few Milhistbot-rated articles that need checking by human eyeballs. Any help knocking off the rest greatly appreciated. The December report has already dropped, so if you scroll down a bit from there you'll see some more that need a look. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:47, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Thai navy flag

There is an issue with {{Navy}} re the calling of the correct flag for the Royal Thai Navy. I think I know what the solution is, but need confirmation before I make any changes to the {{Country data Thailand}} template. Discussion underway at Template talk:Country data Thailand#Template:Navy displays naval ensign flag from Template:Naval instead of navy flag as shown in the template documentation. Mjroots (talk) 12:36, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

New Wikipedia:Nazi affiliation Task Force

With International Holocaust Remembrance Day coming up on 27 January, after discussing in WP:GERMANY I created a Taskforce on Wikipedia to address coverage of Nazi affiliations of individuals, companies that are possibly whitewashed on Wikipedia. Please join and make some recommendations including any scholarly source that are relevant! Wikipedia:Nazi affiliation Task Force ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 18:35, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

UK MOD insignia images issue - Ministry of Defence Illustration Licence

Apparently, a Ministry of Defence Illustration Licence permits the use of low resolution MOD logos from their insignia lists available on their Defence Brand Portal website for use on Wikipedia (see 4.7 of the Ministry of Defence copyright licensing information guide).

Coldstreamer20 has uploaded approximately 80 images from the Defence Brand Portal website largely in the past month onto Wikimedia Commons. An administrator on Commons has advised Coldstreamer20 that they are of the view that the Ministry of Defence Illustration Licence is not compatible with Commons. Coldstreamer20 was advised that they could upload a Defence Brand Portal image to Wikipedia as fair use if they complied with Wikipedia's fair use policy. Coldstreamer20 had started to upload images to Wikipedia as fair use, however, they have recently been blocked indefinitely (pending appeal). Coldstreamer20 asked for my advice on whether they should delete the Defence Brand Portal images on Commons and I hastily told them that they should delete the images. Coldstreamer20 has now nominated the images for deletion. I started to have a look at what links to the Commons images and there are many Wikipedia articles. If the images were deleted there would be many articles without images mostly I think in their infoboxes. As Coldstreamer20 substituted these images in articles the existing fair use images that other users had uploaded to Wikipedia were deleted Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#F5 (F5. Orphaned non-free use images) for example this image.

I've asked on the Commons Help Desk if there is a way to resolve this otherwise Wikipedia editors will have to upload replacement images if the Defence Brand Portal images are deleted on Commons.--Melbguy05 (talk) 07:22, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Edited to fix Commons links.--Melbguy05 (talk)

• Question: Should Coldstreamer20 perhaps be temporarily unblocked with the strict proviso that it would be only to for him to participate in this discussion? (no other editing would be permitted of course) Otherwise, should he wish to contribute to this discussion, would it be permissible for other editor(s) to copy his comments from his talk page over to here? I ask because after reading Melbguy05's comment above, it seems that edits made by Coldstreamer20 could have a significant impact of numerous articles, which might necessitate his participation. - wolf 07:45, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

It seems to be clear that Coldstreamer has made a mess up of this; what can they add in a discussion? If there's anything they need editing back for it would be to sort out this out by removing any badly licenced images they've added to articles. GraemeLeggett (talk) 08:21, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Endorse GraemeLeggett. Coldstreamer20 should not be unblocked. I do not wish to have to go chasing around again after Coldstreamer20 / J-Man11, whose number and lack of comprehension of mistakes, WP:IDHT is practically legendary, this time over images. Buckshot06 (talk) 10:13, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Not long after receiving the advice from the Commons administrator, Coldstreamer20 uploaded an image for No. 1 Parachute Training School RAF to Wikipedia at the existing File:Badge airborne delivery wing 1024x1024.png with a comment that "Better quality image added". However, Coldstreamer20 did not change the image's source URL or what may have been prudent to add an author. WP:FAIRUSE requires the identification of the source. I gave Coldstreamer20, after they had been blocked, a user warning {{Uw-nonfree}} on their talkpage January 2022 Non-free content image for not changing the source. After the initial upload to Wikipedia the following uploads by Coldstreamer20 were as a new image. --Melbguy05 (talk) 10:44, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Opinions requested at requested move

See Talk:CSS Governor Moore#Requested move 16 January 2022. Hog Farm _Talk 19:40, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

WP:South America Articles

Hey Everyone, per this discussion that occurred last month, I went through all articles in WP:South America and sorted articles geographically. This will hopefully prevent anyone from dealing with confusion about where Central American and Caribbean articles fall in the future. Any thoughts on having a bot go through all the talk pages and having any "Latin-Task-Force" updated to South America? It might be overkill but that was the second or third discussion I remember about the issue. --Molestash (talk) 23:44, 16 January 2022 (UTC)