Talk:Kamenets–Podolsky pocket: Difference between revisions

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Who won?

I think it should be clear that this battle was not a Soviet defeat or German victory. While the Soviets failed to achieve the aim of destroying 1st Panzer Army, they succeeded in neutering it, and they gained immense territory. If that is a defeat, I guess we need to count Waterloo as a British defeat, and the Battle for Normandy as an Allied one. Andreas 09:49, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It was not a German tactical victory either, unless the Battle of Falaise does qualify for that label too. Andreas

I agree, but shouldn't we put something like "German breakout" in the outcome box? TheCheeseManCan 03:26, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would overload the box, and it is sufficient to describe this in the text. Andreas 05:34, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

N.F.Vatutin ?

Gen. N. F. Vatutin mortally wounded from February 29 and then is taken in Kiev Military Hospital, how this campaign was the commander anymore? --Minh Tâm-T41-BCA (talk) 05:29, 17 June 2012 (UTC)--[reply]

Inappropriate photo/photo caption?

According to the original German caption of the photo used here, this was taken during antitank *training*, so the soldier is not really "taking cover". I also doubt that such training would be going on during active hostilities, so it's doubtful that this photo has anything to do with the battle in question. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.36.141.97 (talk) 22:41, 6 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Need assistance in editing

Hello everyone, I have a wealth of knowledge about this battle and the German losses in particular. I'd like to add more information about these aspects but I'm not really that good with editing since I'm relatively new here. I've recently added the estimates of German losses from the famous Russian historian Alexey Isayev. He recently wrote a highly detailed book about the Hube Pocket, based on German and Soviet documents. He and his works are a valuable source here regarding the battle, German manpower and equipment losses etc., since they contain primary sources. If there's anyone willing to help me edit this page and add additional information, I would very much appreciate.

Sincerely, Andreas — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tai3chinirv7ana (talk • contribs) 15:11, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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Soviet sources contradict German figures

All figures on losses from Soviet sources contradict German figures. Example: From 21-31 march 353 tanks captured and 1 - 10 april 188 tanks are said to have been captured. According to German sources only 96 tanks and 64 assault guns were available to the 1st tank army at the beginning of the Soviet attacks. The same is true for all numbers of captured and destroyed weapons. It is simply impossible to capture more weapons than ever existed! Source: Karl-Heinz Frieser, Klaus Schmider, Klaus Schönherr, Gerhard Schreiber, Krisztián Ungváry, Bernd Wegner: Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg Band 8 – Die Ostfront 1943/44 – Der Krieg im Osten und an den Nebenfronten, Im Auftrag des MGFA hrsg. von Karl-Heinz Frieser, Deutsche Verlags-Anstalt, Stuttgart 2007, XVI, 1320 S. ISBN 978-3-421-06235-2.--Falkmart (talk) 19:53, 19 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've noted this as well. The start of the piece has the available panzer forces at 838 vehicles. This is not credible. There are various references that give a figure less than half of this number. Where did the article authors get their information? Even allowing for a reasonable figure for reinforcements the numbers just do not add up. 2A00:23C4:503:5F01:5851:B064:104B:2DEF (talk) 18:40, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Revision as of 04:53, 18 March 2021 edit Dicklyon (talk \| contribs) Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Rollbackers 470,771 edits m Dicklyon moved page Talk:Kamenets-Podolsky pocket to Talk:Kamenets–Podolsky pocket: dash between names ← Previous edit		Revision as of 18:40, 27 May 2023 edit undo 2a00:23c4:503:5f01:5851:b064:104b:2def (talk) →‎Soviet sources contradict German figures: Reply Tag: Reply Next edit →
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	All figures on losses from Soviet sources contradict German figures. Example: From 21-31 march 353 tanks captured and 1 - 10 april 188 tanks are said to have been captured. According to German sources only 96 tanks and 64 assault guns were available to the 1st tank army at the beginning of the Soviet attacks. The same is true for all numbers of captured and destroyed weapons. It is simply impossible to capture more weapons than ever existed! Source: Karl-Heinz Frieser, [[Klaus Schmider]], Klaus Schönherr, Gerhard Schreiber, Krisztián Ungváry, Bernd Wegner: Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg Band 8 – Die Ostfront 1943/44 – Der Krieg im Osten und an den Nebenfronten, Im Auftrag des MGFA hrsg. von Karl-Heinz Frieser, Deutsche Verlags-Anstalt, Stuttgart 2007, XVI, 1320 S. ISBN 978-3-421-06235-2.--[[User:Falkmart\|Falkmart]] ([[User talk:Falkmart\|talk]]) 19:53, 19 May 2019 (UTC)		All figures on losses from Soviet sources contradict German figures. Example: From 21-31 march 353 tanks captured and 1 - 10 april 188 tanks are said to have been captured. According to German sources only 96 tanks and 64 assault guns were available to the 1st tank army at the beginning of the Soviet attacks. The same is true for all numbers of captured and destroyed weapons. It is simply impossible to capture more weapons than ever existed! Source: Karl-Heinz Frieser, [[Klaus Schmider]], Klaus Schönherr, Gerhard Schreiber, Krisztián Ungváry, Bernd Wegner: Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg Band 8 – Die Ostfront 1943/44 – Der Krieg im Osten und an den Nebenfronten, Im Auftrag des MGFA hrsg. von Karl-Heinz Frieser, Deutsche Verlags-Anstalt, Stuttgart 2007, XVI, 1320 S. ISBN 978-3-421-06235-2.--[[User:Falkmart\|Falkmart]] ([[User talk:Falkmart\|talk]]) 19:53, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

			:I've noted this as well. The start of the piece has the available panzer forces at 838 vehicles. This is not credible. There are various references that give a figure less than half of this number. Where did the article authors get their information? Even allowing for a reasonable figure for reinforcements the numbers just do not add up. [[Special:Contributions/2A00:23C4:503:5F01:5851:B064:104B:2DEF\|2A00:23C4:503:5F01:5851:B064:104B:2DEF]] ([[User talk:2A00:23C4:503:5F01:5851:B064:104B:2DEF\|talk]]) 18:40, 27 May 2023 (UTC)