User talk:Fowler&fowler

Archive 22 Archive 23 Archive 24 Archive 25 Archive 26

India-related FPs I

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  Indian vultures, (Gyps indicus), in a nest on the tower of the Chaturbhuj Temple, Orchha, Madhya Pradesh. The vulture became nearly extinct in India in the 1990s from having ingested the carrion of diclofenac-laced cattle.
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  The bank myna is indigenous to the Indian subcontinent.
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  The vulnerable Malabar frog is endemic to the Western Ghats.
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  The endangered Nilgiri tahr is endemic to the Western Ghats. Shown here is a female in a national park in Kerala.

India-related FPs II

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  The brahminy kite (Haliastur indus) hunts for fish and other prey near the coasts and around inland wetlands.
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  The lotus (Nelumbo nucifera) is the Indian national flower. Hindus and Buddhists regard it as a sacred symbol of enlightenment.
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  The Indian peafowl (Pavo cristatus) is the Indian national bird. It roosts in moist and dry-deciduous forests, cultivated areas, and village precincts.
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  The Pahalgam valley in Jammu and Kashmir is covered with a temperate coniferous forest.

India-related FPs III

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  A Toda tribal hut exemplifies Indian vernacular architecture.
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  Bangles on display in Bangalore India
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  A Sadhu and a picture of Siva in Kayasth Tola, Varanasi, Uttar Pradesh in Northern India
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  The pushkarani, or tank, located on the eastern side of Krishna temple in Hampi, Karnataka, the seat of the Vijayanagara Empire

India-related FPs IV

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  Large Gautama Buddha statue in Buddha Park of Ravangla, Sikkim
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  A Jain woman washes the feet of Bahubali Gomateswara at Shravanabelagola, Karnataka. The Bahubali idol is 18 metres (58 ft) high and is carved out of a single rock on top of a hill.
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  A Chola bronze depicting Nataraja, who is seen as a cosmic "Lord of the Dance" and representative of Shiva
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  A sixteenth century rendering of a scene from the Ramayana, an ancient Sanskrit epic.

India-related FPs V

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  Paintings at the Ajanta Caves in Aurangabad, Maharashtra, 6th century
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  The Agasthiyamalai range, constituting the southern end of the Western Ghats, as seen from the rainshadow region of the southwest monsoon in Tirunelveli, Tamil Nadu.
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  A beach off the Arabian Sea in Puvar, Kerala. The Arabian Sea is the northwestern region of the Indian Ocean, bounded by the Arabian and Indian peninsulas.
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  Flowing through its rocky terrain near Hampi is the Tungabhadra river, the major right bank tributary of the Krishna river, a peninsular river, which empties into the Bay of Bengal. The coracles, made of wicker, are traditionally covered with hide, their circular shape preventing them from overturning in rivers with rocky outcrops.

India-related FPs VI

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  The recycling industry in India, a Varanasi paper bag seller
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  An example of the Chinese fishing nets of Cochin. Fisheries in India is a major industry in its coastal states, employing over 14 million people. The annual catch doubled between 1990 and 2010.
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  A tea garden in Sikkim. India, the world's second largest-producer of tea, is a nation of one billion tea drinkers, who consume 70% of India's tea output.
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  A daily wage worker in a salt field. The average minimum wage of daily labourers is around Rs.100 per day

India-related FPs VII

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  A bharatnatyam concert in 2014
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  A Bondo woman walks to a weekly market in Chhattisgarh.
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  A woman in Bundi, Rajasthan
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  An ascetic in Varanasi, Uttar Pradesh

India-related FPs VIII

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  The tomb of Itmad Ud Daulah, Agra,
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  A Hindu bride
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  The interior of San Thome Basilica, Chennai, Tamil Nadu. Christianity is believed to have been introduced to India by the late 2nd century by Syriac-speaking Christians.
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  A Sikh pilgrim at the Harmandir Sahib, or Golden Temple, in Amritsar, Punjab

India-related Classic Pictures-I

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  A farmer in Rajasthan milks his cow. Milk is India's largest crop by economic value. Worldwide, as of 2011, India had the largest herds of buffalo and cattle, and was the largest producer of milk.
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  Indian agriculture dates from the period 7,000–6,000 BCE, employs two thirds of the national workforce, and is second in farm output worldwide. Above, a farmer works an ox-drawn plow in Kadmati, West Bengal.
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  Schoolchildren in Chambal, Madhya Pradesh eating a mid-day meal. The Mid-Day Meal Scheme attempts to lower rates of childhood malnutrition in India.
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  Cricket is the most popular game among India's masses. Shown here is an instance of street cricket.

India-related FPs IX

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  Asfi Masjid at the Bara Imambara complex, Lukcnow, India
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  Chhota Imambara, Lucknow, India
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  Taj Mahal mosque, Agra, India
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  Bangalore panorama

India-related FPs X

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  Red Weaver ant, Oecophylla smaragdina in Bangalore, India
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  Female Telamonia dimidiata in the Lalbagh Botanical gardens, Bangalore, India
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  Mysore Palace in the morning
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  Indian Olympic athlete, Irfan Kolothum Thodi

India-related FPs XI

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  Grammodes geometrica, Bangalore, India
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  Mumtaz Ahmed Khan founder of Al-Ameen Educational Society
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  Al-Ameen College of Pharmacy, Bangalore, India
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  Kumar Anish, Indian yoga specialist

India-related FPs XII

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  Taj Mahal at the golden hour
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  Bara Imambara, Lucknow, India
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  Salman Khurshid, Indian politician belonging to the Indian National Congress
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  Indian palm squirrel, Bangalore, India

India-related FPs XIII

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  Odissi
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  Mohiniyattam
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  Kuchipudi
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  Arundhati Roy

India-related FPs XIV

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  Chandiroor Divakaran
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  Karnataka High Court, Bangalore
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  Dharmaraya Swamy Temple a Hindu temple in Bangalore
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  Bangalore Town Hall

Notice of No Original Research Noticeboard discussion

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

Buddha related FPs I

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  Battered religious figures stand watch on a hill above a tattered valley. Nagasaki, Japan. September 24, 1945
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  17th century Painting on cloth of of Buddha Shakyamuni as Lord of the Munis with Bodhisatvas in background.
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  The Gathering of Four Buddhas. 1562 CE, National Museum of Art, Korea.
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  Two women walk past the huge cavity where one of the ancient Buddhas of Bamiyan used to stand, June 17, 2012. The monumental statues were built in A.D. 507 and 554

Buddha related FPs II

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  Monk walks in the morning after the rain in front of the Temple of the Emerald Buddha (Wat Phra Kaew), part of the Grand Palace, Bangkok, Thailand.
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  Buddha Amitabha in His Pure Land of Suvakti, Central Tibet. 18th century; Ground mineral pigment on cotton
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  English: Shakyamuni Buddha with Avadana Legend Scenes. Tibet. Date 19th century
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  Chiang Mai, Thailand: Buddhist Manuscript Library and Museum

Things to do on 6/10/22

• Start the article Singrauli estate (see Wikipedia_talk:Noticeboard_for_India-related_topics#Cleaning_up_confusions_about_"Singrauli_State"
• Start something on the Ethnic fermented foods and beverages of the Darjeeling Hills, using

• Thapa, Namrata; Tamang, Jyoti Prakash (2020), "Ethnic Fermented Foods and Beverages of Sikkim and Darjeeling Hills (Gorkhaland Territorial Administration)", in Tamang, Jyoti Prakash (ed.), Ethnic Fermented Foods and Beverages of India: Science History and Culture, Singapore: Springer Nature, ISBN 978-981-15-1485-2 and
• Tamang, Jyoti P.; Sarkar, Prabir K; Hesseltine, Clifford W (1988). "Traditional Fermented Foods and Beverages of Darjeeling". Journal of the Science of Food and Agriculture. 44 (4): 375–385. doi:10.1002/jsfa.2740440410.

• Add something on Tibetan refugees in Darjeeling.

The relevant news, June 24, 2022

Executive Order No. 600: Protecting Access to Reproductive Health Care Services in the Commonwealth, DATE 06/24/2022, ISSUER: Charlie Baker, MASS REGISTER: No. 600 ... WHEREAS, the Constitution of the Commonwealth has long provided a guarantee of reproductive rights independent of and more expansive than any protection provided by the United States Constitution ... NOW, THEREFORE, I, Charles D. Baker, Governor of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution, Part 2, c. 2, § 1, Art. 1, do hereby order as follows: ...Given at the Executive Chamber in Boston this 24th day of June in the year of our Lord two thousand twenty-two and of the Independence of the United States of America two hundred forty-five.

Notice of edit warring noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you.

2c

F&f, if an editor asks to be referred to as male, female, or of neither gender, it behooves us to do so as a matter of common courtesy. The "real gender" [sic] of the editor or the reason behind their on-wiki preference is frankly irrelevant because while we can and should "argue" over article content based on sources, wikipedia policies etc, when it comes to this issue there is, IMO, no external authority to refer to beyond the person(a) themselves.

Of course, it is not always easy to remember each editor's preference and inadvertent lapses are almost inevitable. As a personal practice, for the last few years I have started using neutral third-person pronouns in all communications (both on and off-wiki) where the gender of the referent is unknown or is irrelevant to the topic of the discussion. And I haven't received any push-back from people who identify as male or female so far. The singular "they/them" takes some getting used to but English after all is a living language.

Note that in the above, I have not referred to any wikipedia policy although I believe there are some that have been formulated recently (tps'er can perhaps link to them). For me, the crux is that, irrespective of whether such policies exist or are enforced, we should hold ourselves to high-enough standard not to stoop to questioning other peoples gender or gender identity. Hope you will give it some thought; feel free to respond here or through email, if you prefer (best though, not to make the discussion about any particular editor). Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 00:31, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I belong to a peer group of men and women that didn't change their last names after marriage; some of us adopted hyphenated names for both, then argued in the best traditions of equality about order of hyphenated names for themselves and their children, ... Sartre and Simone de Beauvoir, were our idols or were Anna Freud and Dorothy Burlingham (whose WP article I had the pleasure of writing),

So, I do try and remember your dictum most of the time, but like you said, there are times when the generic male pronoun pops up unannounced. It does in the speech of women I know and they are not Phyllis Schlaflyites by a long shot.

Speaking of her, and I'm reminiscing now ... I went to the big ERA demonstration in Cincinnati in the spring of 1979, and then we crossed the mighty Ohio river to oppose the Right to Lifers in their own something or other in Lexington, KY, and that wasn't the first time. I've been around enough straight women, gay women, and gay men to know that the humane ones at least don't make a big deal of occasional slips of the tongue.

So, I'll try follow your advice more diligently, but I can't help feeling that in some of the The lady doth protest too much, methinks type objections I hear on WP, especially for some reason on India-related talk pages where they appears in an ambience of increasingly brazen hatred, I can't help feeling that I am being conned. I get irritated not so much because I am personally offended, but because I think such cavalier use of something that grew of our such serious things is an insult to Sarte, de Beauvoir, A. Freud, Burlingham, to Betty Friedan, Harvey Milk, and a long line of pioneers who fought for various forms of equal rights, going back to the nineteenth century, not just to Frederick Douglas and Lincoln and Harriet Beecher Stowe, but also to others not so well known such Herbert Musgrave Phipson (whose article on WP I wrote long ago) and his wife Edith Pechey, both of whom did their bit more modestly.

The cavalier use of usage, without irony or the kind of wisdom that usually accompanies heartfelt things, hurts for that reason. Maybe it is not cavalier, but the seeds of doubt remain Pinging @Johnuniq: by way of explanation, not defense. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:24, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I have to tell you that the pendulum is swinging strongly and we all must adapt to the times. Whether or not someone is using the issue as a tactic is not relevant in any way. Contributors, particularly those working in contentious topics, are quite readily indefinitely blocked when difficult issues erupt on a noticeboard, and where it is clear that the standard advice offered by Abecedare above has not been followed. From now on, everyone is they (or, find a way of avoiding pronouns perhaps by repeating the user name). Johnuniq (talk) 06:15, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

The thing about pendulums is that they swing both to and fro. Please have a quick read of WP:THREATEN. Personally I find using a plural pronoun when a singular one is used to be offensive to the reader. It interrupts the flow and makes you go back to find out which person you've forgotten about. But then abiding by standards accepted by the majority is considered poor form by right-on woke campaigners. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 07:10, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Martin: I consider John to be a benign presence who had my best interest at heart just as I do you. I didn’t think they were threatening me, only telling me what the mood out there is and that their (Abecedare’s and John’s) hands would be tied in case someone dragged me to ANI. It’s what the rules are for better or for worse. The thing is that I do try to use they/theirs, might have even argued in favor at a MOS discussion.

Given that the nominator at the RfC is quoting rules repeatedly, they might be looking to drag me to the wood shed and caution is best overall but especially now. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 07:40, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

OK, fair enough, and it is your talk page. It just read as "You're old fashioned, do it my way or you'll be punished" which is why I reacted. Best, Martin of Sheffield (talk) 07:59, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I understand. I think both of you to be guardian angels and don't want to lose you. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 08:42, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

You have read the situation accurately. A complicating factor is that at a noticeboard like ANI, almost no one can follow the background of a complex dispute so arguments might be settled by what onlookers do understand, namely that person X said something that person Y found to be offensive. Doing that more than once is an own goal. Johnuniq (talk) 09:19, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for that bit of insight into decision making at ANI-like noticeboards. This is very helpful. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:35, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Not being a soccer or hockey player, I had to look up "own goal" in the OED. At first, I thought it meant a personal goal (in life)  :)

1. Sport. A goal scored against the scorer's own team, usually unintentionally.

1922 Times 10 Apr. 6/5 Lennon (own goal), Smith, Pagnam 2.

1947 Sunday Pictorial 9 Feb. 15/1 An amazing ‘own goal’ by Wilf Mannion.

1976 Norwich Mercury 10 Dec. 8/6 With no one taking control J. Purling eventually left M. Warman stranded with a back header that lopped just under the crossbar for an own-goal.

1998 Miami Herald (Nexis) 16 Nov. 4 d His team's recent slump was highlighted by an own-goal off his stick against the Hurricanes on Saturday.

(Hide quotations)

2. figurative (originally and chiefly British). An act that unintentionally harms one's own interests.

1975 Economist (Nexis) 4 Oct. 27 The doyen of the Tribune group..scored an own goal on Wednesday night... His speech at a packed Tribune rally was a gross tactical miscalculation of [etc.].

1976 Guardian 11 Aug. 10/8 Two youngsters of Provisional IRA blown up by premature explosion of own bomb while crossing peace line..described as own goals by smiling Army press officers.

1989 Advertiser (Adelaide) (Nexis) 14 Dec. Senator Haines described Mr Downer's plan as an ‘own goal’ which would rebound against the Liberals.

2001 Farmers Guardian 17 Aug. 9/2 For a Government minister..and a key adviser..to state publicly their low estimation of farmers and farming is yet another spectacular own goal. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:40, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

WP:WHAAOE see own goal! Johnuniq (talk) 09:43, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

So, its more than just soccer or hockey. It means I have not really been watching my Green Bay Packers or Chicago Bulls with any diligence. Thanks! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:51, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

By the way, another cultural lesson is that asking "what gender are you?" is very creepy. I can't quite put my finger on why, but it is not appropriate at Wikipedia. We're not supposed to make any personal queries at all—it's none of my business where other editors live, or what they do in their personal lives. It might be ok to ask what pronouns are wanted but that's not scalable—we can't have each of a thousand editors asking each of the others what pronoun to use. Stick to singular they (it's not plural). Johnuniq (talk) 10:44, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I won't ask anyone again, but I asked in part because I assumed they are confident in their gender identity and would thereby give me a better idea of Wikipedia's demographics, which I currently assume to be overwhelmingly male in IT-related professions or male students preparing for careers in IT-related fields (according to the NY Times). Indeed I've spent much time (months, maybe even years intermittently) at WT:FAC arguing that topics that are of interest to "quantitative" males of the Anglosphere are the ones that inundate FAC (and its overworked reviewers) and are usually promoted; there was some sympathy for my views there and some change effected.

But I generally agree with you and won't ask again. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:03, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I also asked, to be honest, in part because I doubted their new found identity and wanted to test their answer against both very confident and very shy people I have known who have talked about identity issues. Both of the latter share a kind of underlying honesty that people who use it as a tactic are unable to muster. I agree that I should not have done that. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:14, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

They are unable to muster, in part, because they have simply not thought about it enough. No angst, let alone melancholia, has accompanied their introspection. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:20, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

The thing is that I'm not your typical his user by a long stretch, at best an occasionally forgetful one.

No typical user would be making a valiant stand to have :"wheechair bound" and "is confined to a wheelchair" depracated at MOS talk; none would have been asked by Ceoil to look look over: this tribute to SlimVirgin; and none would have had someone new to WP but dealing with issues of identity and disability make this post of thanks.

I'm not being defensive, only giving some idea of the finer nerved views I hold most of the time and the strangely opaque Wiklawyerish objections of my interlocutors. I don't mean you, John, obviously. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:57, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

So summing up, you are maybe saying that all the finer nerved stuff doesn't add up to a hill of beans if at ANI the only thing that the judges of the passing moment can understand is WP:ASPERSIONS. I don't want to be marching to the gallows on that account. I agree there and thank you for the explanations, John. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:21, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

This is what happens when you get strongly identified with your digital life on Wiki and start owning your community contributions. Ego is the path to the dark side. I think you should study this Sanskrit quote: “Seva Paramo Dharma”. Fayninja (talk) 16:48, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Service is merit, or Service is righteousness, apparently.

Kind of like Service is its own reward, or Virtue is its own reward. But then there is also (Mallory's) "Because it is there," or "Valor is its own reward." But then there is also: Discretion is the better part of valor.

Mottos are a dime a dozen. It takes more than one motto to carve out a philosophy. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:39, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes. It is translated as "service is the highest duty" or "selfless service is the ultimate virtue." The phrase encapsulates the idea that serving without any expectation of personal gain or reward is a noble and honourable way of life.

In many spiritual and philosophical traditions, seva (service) is considered a fundamental principle. It promotes compassion, empathy, and a sense of interconnectedness with others. By engaging in acts of selfless service, individuals can contribute to the well-being and upliftment of society as a whole.

Since you have contributed so much of your time to Wikipedia, I thought you were already walking the path but just needed a gentle reminder.

I apologize if any of my comments had hurt you. I tend to be spontaneous most of the time. Fayninja (talk) 15:40, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

True. In the heat of the moment, I do veer off WP's principles which I will follow with greater resolution after your reminder, especially in reference to using "they" as the universal personal pronoun, which this thread is about. Remember that WP's principles may not always conform to national perspectives. Kashmir might be one of those topic areas. Beyond saying this, I cannot offer much about the topic on this page. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:52, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Re: Kashmir RFC

Regarding your comment: note that the conclusion of this RFC may well be that, as North8000 suggested and you hinted, no updates are needed to the existing consensus! Getting the 2019 consensus re-affirmed (if that is what happens) will itself be of benefit IMO. Also, if your preferred option for the lede language is not among the ones listed in the RFC's currently (as I suspect), feel free to offer it as part of your comment. I haven't yet examined the listed options carefully enough and it would be good to have your preferred version listed before I get down to weighing in myself.

PS: I am commenting here in order to avoid have a threaded discussion in the "Survey section" of the RFC, because we both know how messy that gets! Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 00:45, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I added an "explanation" after that comment, mentioning your earlier argument, which I thought was beautifully precise, epitomizing what GH Hardy had said in A Mathematician's Apology about reductio ad absurdum, "A chess player offers the pawn sacrifice. A mathematician offers the game." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:12, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Kashmir is complicated

There seems to be no consensus in the academia about how to refer to the disputed regions. Even if we use the term Indian/Pakistani-invaded uniformly over all regions of Kashmir, we will still technically achieve neutrality because of the uniform application of the template. I have put in my last comment on the matter, now it's time for the bystanders to chime in and finish it. Good night. Fayninja (talk) 16:12, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

'43 Famine

Hi F&F,

In the t/p archives of Bengal famine of 1943, you have frequently highlighted Hindu men's desertion of their families, as the famine gained pace. I am interested in a few sources on this narrow locus but for purposes which are not connected to Wikipedia. Will appreciate some aid. TrangaBellam (talk) 09:11, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Hello @TrangaBellam:

• The time honored is Paul Greenough's Prosperity and Misery in Modern Bengal: The Famine of 1943-1944, Oxford, 1982. Difficult to find. I have a hard copy but no pdf.
• Arjun Appadurai's How moral is South Asia's economy: A review article
• Among many rural folk in East Bengal, who were mostly Muslim and perhaps a few Hindus, a strange kind of passive acceptance was seen. They had gradually lost everything: their crops, their steady incomes, their livestock, their furniture (auctioned), even their thatched roofs (also auctioned or taken by the money lender). Eventually, they just sat in their homes and died by the tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, never asking for help. It is briefly discussed in one of the war volumes of Bayly and Harper. Hauntingly sad. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:51, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Indian independence movement

Surprised to see that you don't seem to edited this article to any significant degree. It somehow wasn't on my watchlist till earlier today either. Haven't read the article yet but looking through the references etc, the citations seem pretty "random" with each work apparently selected to support a individual claims. Not clear which, if any, history texts were used to "structure" the contents.

Anyway, no particular ask at the moment but this may provide an interesting project if you are feeling particularly inspired or bored. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 17:17, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Aksai Chin Map

Hello. Please prove that Demchok, Ladakh is part of Aksai Chin. If you do not give direct evidence of that, then I feel morally obiliged to remove this map, for lack of evidence of claims made: Commons:File:Kashmir region. LOC 2003626427 - showing sub-regions administered by different countries.jpg Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)