Talk:Exodus of Kashmiri Hindus: Difference between revisions
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*{{citation|last=Datta|first=Ankur|chapter=The Blank Space Between Nationalisms: Locating the Kashmiri Pandits in Liberal and Hindu Nationalist Politics in Relation to Kashmir and India|editor1-last=Duschinski|editor1-first=Haley|editor2-last=Bhan|editor2-first=Mona|editor3-last=Robinson|editor3-first=Cabeiri deBergh|title=The Palgrave Handbook of New Directions in Kashmir Studies|year=2023|location=London|pages=365–380|publisher=Palgrave Macmillan|isbn=978-3-031-28519-6}} |
*{{citation|last=Datta|first=Ankur|chapter=The Blank Space Between Nationalisms: Locating the Kashmiri Pandits in Liberal and Hindu Nationalist Politics in Relation to Kashmir and India|editor1-last=Duschinski|editor1-first=Haley|editor2-last=Bhan|editor2-first=Mona|editor3-last=Robinson|editor3-first=Cabeiri deBergh|title=The Palgrave Handbook of New Directions in Kashmir Studies|year=2023|location=London|pages=365–380|publisher=Palgrave Macmillan|isbn=978-3-031-28519-6}} |
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[[User:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 01:38, 10 October 2023 (UTC) |
[[User:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 01:38, 10 October 2023 (UTC) |
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== Article violates Neutral point of view == |
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"Many Kashmiri Muslims did not support violence against religious minorities; the departure of the Kashmiri Pandits offered an excuse for casting Kashmiri Muslims as Islamic radicals, thereby contaminating their more genuine political grievances, and offering a rationale for their surveillance and violent treatment by the Indian state" |
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Such apologetic tone is not present in articles on Anti Muslim riots in India, for example. Many Hindus don't support riots against muslims as well but these things are not mentioned when victims are Muslims |
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Besides, read the article on 2002 riots and then this, and you would realise how crimes are described in graphic details in that article [[User:Factpineapple|Factpineapple]] ([[User talk:Factpineapple|talk]]) 16:09, 8 February 2024 (UTC) |
Revision as of 16:09, 8 February 2024
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Many of these questions arise frequently on the talk page concerning the Exodus of Kashmiri Hindus. To view an explanation to the answer, click the [show] link to the right of the question. Q1: Why is this article not titled as a genocide?
A1: Wikipedia relies on reliable sources that have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. The Neutral point of view policy, especially the sections Undue weight and Equal validity, requires that editors not add their own editorial biases when writing text based on such sources. As the relevant academic field generally rejects the several hypotheses grouped under the umbrella of Exodus of Kashmiri Hindus as a genocide, it would be a disservice to our readers to have a description of the topic that does not reflect the consensus view. Further advice for how to treat topics such as this one may be found at the Fringe theories and Reliable sources guidelines. The reliable sources consider the description of the violence as a "genocide" or "ethnic cleansing" to be widely inaccurate, aggressive, or propaganda. |
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Bibliography
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- Books
- Bose, Sumantra (1997), The challenge in Kashmir: democracy, self-determination, and a just peace, New Delhi: Sage Publications, ISBN 978-0-8039-9350-1
- Bose, Sumantra (2003), Kashmir: Roots of Conflict, Paths to Peace, Harvard University Press, ISBN 978-0-674-01173-1
- Bose, Sumantra (2013), Transforming India, Harvard University Press, ISBN 978-0-674-72819-6
- On Uncertain Ground: Displaced Kashmiri Pandits in Jammu and Kashmir, Oxford University Press, 2017, ISBN 9780199466771
- Faheem, Farrukh (2018), "Interrogating the Ordinary: Everyday Politics and the Struggle for Azadi in Kashmir", in Duschinski, Haley; Bhan, Mona; Zia, Ather; Mahmood, Cynthia (eds.), Resisting Occupation in Kashmir, University of Pennsylvania Press, pp. 230–247, ISBN 978-0-8122-9496-5
- Hussain, Shahla (2015), "Kashmiri Visions of Freedom: The Past and the Present", in Zutshi, Chitralekha (ed.), Kashmir: History, Politics, Representation, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 978-1107181977
- Jagmohan (2006) [September 1991]. My Frozen Turbulence in Kashmir (7 ed.). Allied Publisher. ISBN 9788177649956.
- Jamal, Arif (2009), Shadow War: The Untold Story of Jihad in Kashmir, Melville House, ISBN 978-1-933633-59-6
- Madan, T. N. (2008), "Kashmir, Kashmiris, Kashmiriyat: An Introductory Essay", in Rao, Aparna (ed.), The Valley of Kashmir: The Making and Unmaking of a Composite Culture?, pp. 1–36
- Malik, Iffat (2005), Kashmir: Ethnic Conflict, International Dispute, Oxford University Press, ISBN 978-0-19-579622-3
- Metcalf, Barbara; Metcalf, Thomas R. (2006), A Concise History of Modern India (Cambridge Concise Histories), Cambridge and New York: Cambridge University Press. Pp. xxxiii, 372, ISBN 978-0-521-68225-1
- Rai, Mridu (2004), Hindu Rulers, Muslim Subjects: Islam, Rights, and the History of Kashmir, Princeton University Press/Permanent Black, ISBN 978-81-7824-202-6
- Tikoo, Colonel Tej K. (2013). Kashmir: Its Aborigines and Their Exodus. Lancer Publishers LLC. ISBN 978-1-935501-58-9.
- Pandit, T. N. (2005-01-01). Kashmiri Pandits: A Contemporary Perspective. APH Publishing. pp. 3, 9, 63–. ISBN 9788176488129.
- Snedden, Christopher (2021), Independent Kashmir: An incomplete aspiration, Manchester University Press, ISBN 978-1-5261-5615-0
- Swami, Praveen (2007), India, Pakistan and the Secret Jihad: The covert war in Kashmir, 1947-2004, Asian Security Studies, Routledge, ISBN 0-415-40459-2
- Wani, Aijaz Ashraf (2019), What Happened to Governance in Kashmir?, Oxford University Press India, ISBN 978-0-19-909715-9
- Wilhelm, Sandhya (2010). Can India Give Up Kashmir: An Option or a Risk? (PDF) (Thesis). Georgetown University.
- Zutshi, Chitralekha (2003), Languages of Belonging: Islam, Regional Identity, and the Making of Kashmir, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, ISBN 978-1-85065-700-2
- Journals
- Evans, Alexander (2002). "A departure from history: Kashmiri Pandits, 1990–2001". Contemporary South Asia. 11 (1): 19–37. doi:10.1080/0958493022000000341. ISSN 0958-4935. S2CID 145573161.
- Duschinski, Haley (2008). ""Survival Is Now Our Politics": Kashmiri Hindu Community Identity and the Politics of Homeland". International Journal of Hindu Studies. 12 (1): 41–64. doi:10.1007/s11407-008-9054-z. ISSN 1022-4556. JSTOR 40343840. S2CID 143490357.
Fowler&fowler's third-party scholarly sources on descriptors commonly used for the "exodus" of Pandits
This section is pinned and will not be automatically archived. |
Please do not add sources to this section. I will add a discussion section below once I have added the sources.
"migration"
"migration
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"flight"
"flight"
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"departure," "leaving"
"departure"
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Content dispute
- The content being disputed, removed here, is this:[1]
UnpetitproleX (talk) 13:04, 27 September 2023 (UTC)What added to their perceptions was the presence of various newly founded militant organisations with their fundamentalist agenda. Apart from seeking to apply Islamic codes on Kashmiri society and imposing moral codes on Kashmiri Muslims, these organisations also sought to pressurise the Kashmiri Pundits into using symbols to identify them-selves as ‘Hindus’. Some of these organisations also started a campaign using mosques and street posters to ask Kashmiri Pundits to leave Kashmir. Irrespective of the fact that mass of Kashmiri Muslims were not influenced by these fringe organisations and empathised with the Pundits and even offered to protect them in case of any untoward incident, at least in the initial phase, the factor of ‘fear’ was very strong.
- See also Behera (2006):[2]
UnpetitproleX (talk) 13:08, 27 September 2023 (UTC)One such alignment has developed among the Kashmiri Pandits, a target of militant Islamists in the early 1990s, when the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) imposed an Islamic code of conduct on the Valley. Cinemas, beauty salons, and shops selling liquor and videocassettes were closed, and Hindi movies banned. Muslim women were ordered to wear burkas and Hindu women to stop wearing a bindi. People in the transport business were no longer allowed to carry unveiled women in their vehicles, while tailors in Srinagar were warned against stitching any Western-style garments that departed from the traditional attire of Kashmiri women and were kept busy making burkas. The Jamaat-i-Islami, in particular, targeted the Pandits as “Kafirs—the Batta, (Infidels—the Pandit) the first symbol of India in Kashmir.”
- @TrangaBellam: and @Kautilya3: regards the actual content being disputed. UnpetitproleX (talk) 07:31, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
- Another thing that was removed was the mention of threats carried in letters, posters etc. for which Chowdhary was added as a reference.[3] Chowdhary, again, is not the only one to mention these threats. See, for instance, Hussain (2021):[4]
UnpetitproleX (talk) 13:22, 27 September 2023 (UTC) Copied and pasted from above section per this comment. --UnpetitproleX (talk) 08:14, 2 October 2023 (UTC)Stories of Kashmiri Pandits, branded as “informers,” and killed in their own homes or in their alleys, and survived by grieving wives and children, had a tremendous impact on the psyche of the minority community. Their fears were heightened as religious slogans merged with the cry for independence emerging from the mosques of Kashmir. Certain militant groups even wrote threatening letters to the Kashmiri Hindu community, asking them to leave the Valley.
- The problem is not removed content, but added content. It doesn't help to parade sources. The lead of the article had been stable for quite some time. You added something. I reverted it because the reliable content relating to the topic was already in the lead. Per WP:BRD and particularly WP:ONUS (which is Wikipedia policy), you need to tell us what exactly were the sentences you had added in the lead and why there are WP:DUE.
- Again, please don't parade sources. Tell us what the text was you had added, i.e. don't hide it in links. And tell us why what was there was not enough and why what you had added has due weight in the scholarly literature. 13:55, 2 October 2023 (UTC) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:55, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- PS And tell us where in the lead you had added it, include both the sentence before and that after. It is not our job to decipher mysterious links. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:57, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- PS I have changed the section title "Removed content" which is not accurate to "Content dispute." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:07, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- Please note that your quote cited to Shahla Hussain [4] (Hussain) above is a small part of the much longer quote already appearing in citation [41] (in the stable version of the lead). Please tell us what special meaning or emphasis can be extracted from the reduced quote that requires a second sentence. Please also note that the lead is written in Summary style. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:17, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- Please also *do not* add new sources. We need to first discuss your text addition in light of the attribution you had originally supplied and whether that attribution made the text due. Only then can we discuss new sources. The academics of this world were not twiddling their thumbs during the pandemic. Quite a few new ones have appeared. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:46, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- Summing up the above: please note that the stable lead alone has 58 citations to major scholars of Kashmir and the first two paragraphs of the Background section have another 20. (The lead has citations, moreover, because it was written with a lot of care and consideration to be the WP:NPOV and WP:DUE template for the rewriting of the article. The lead is not the summary of the article. There were quite a few editors watching me do it. The lead was in turn used in discussions and editing of Kashmir Files. I have done this sort of writing of lead-as-template in many WP articles, such as: Sanskrit, Mughal Empire, Brahmi script, 2020 Delhi riots (at the request of Kautilya3), Varanasi, Indus Valley Civilisation, Subhas Chandra Bose, Bhagat Singh, Mahatma Gandhi, Jawaharlal Nehru, … to name a few. It is that sort of lead. Sometimes people request my help for such lead writing in controversial articles.) Most citations have extensive quotes. Please make sure you have read them all before you attempt the defense of an addition. We can then consider that addition of text (in a specific place in the lead) to be a proposal and decide whether it fits coherently and cohesively with the prose organization of the lead and more importantly whether it carries due weight in the scholarly literature. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:31, 2 October 2023 (UTC) Clarifed with emphasis, explanation, and corrections. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 08:30, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
- I will add something here soon. UnpetitproleX (talk) 06:49, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
- Please be aware that I might also take five days to acknowledge it and longer to respond. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:55, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
- Noting that neither user:Kautilya3 nor user:TrangaBellam have responded to user:UnpetitproleX's ping of ten days ago (29 September 2023). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:38, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
- Actually, K3 has responded on UnpetitproleX's user talk page and essentially asked them to refrain from editing the lead, to preferring editing the main body (which is what I had written the lead for anyway). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:44, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
- Noting that neither user:Kautilya3 nor user:TrangaBellam have responded to user:UnpetitproleX's ping of ten days ago (29 September 2023). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:38, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
- Please be aware that I might also take five days to acknowledge it and longer to respond. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:55, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
- I will add something here soon. UnpetitproleX (talk) 06:49, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
- See also Behera (2006):[2]
Loss and erasure
In this edit, I've added a sentence that makes the sentence about the KP's in exile writing memoirs more comprehensible. It is cited to Ankur Datta's chapter in the very recent (June 2023) Palgrave Handbook of New Directions in Kashmir Studies. It has a quote for aiding in the main body expansion.
- Datta, Ankur (2023), "The Blank Space Between Nationalisms: Locating the Kashmiri Pandits in Liberal and Hindu Nationalist Politics in Relation to Kashmir and India", in Duschinski, Haley; Bhan, Mona; Robinson, Cabeiri deBergh (eds.), The Palgrave Handbook of New Directions in Kashmir Studies, London: Palgrave Macmillan, pp. 365–380, ISBN 978-3-031-28519-6
Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:38, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Article violates Neutral point of view
"Many Kashmiri Muslims did not support violence against religious minorities; the departure of the Kashmiri Pandits offered an excuse for casting Kashmiri Muslims as Islamic radicals, thereby contaminating their more genuine political grievances, and offering a rationale for their surveillance and violent treatment by the Indian state"
Such apologetic tone is not present in articles on Anti Muslim riots in India, for example. Many Hindus don't support riots against muslims as well but these things are not mentioned when victims are Muslims
Besides, read the article on 2002 riots and then this, and you would realise how crimes are described in graphic details in that article Factpineapple (talk) 16:09, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- ^ Chowdhary 2016, p. 125
- ^ Behera, Navnita Chadha (2006), Demystifying Kashmir, Brookings Institution Press, pp. 124–125, ISBN 978-0-8157-0860-5
- ^ Chowdhary 2016, p.127: (in footnote) "Apart from the imposition of code of conduct by some militant organisations, some of these launched a terror campaign through letters, posters, pamphlets and newspapers asking them to leave in specified time. Some Srinagar-based newspapers also carried threats from militant organisations asking the minorities to leave. Many Pundits received threatening letters and phone calls. The religious slogans like ‘Nara-I- Taqbir Allah - o-Akbar’; ‘Yahan Kya Chalegea? Nizam-e-Mustafea’ [What will happen here? System of the prophet] certainly affected the morale of the minority community. Further, there were slogans that were specifically targeting the Pundits. Some of these slogans (e.g. ‘Zalimo, Kaffiro, Hamara Kashmir Choor Do’ [Tyrants, infidels, leave our Kashmir], ‘Musslamano Jago, Kaffiro Bhago, Jihad Aa Raha He’ [Muslims wake up, infidels run away, jihad is coming], ‘Agar Kasmir Me Rehna Hoga, Allah Allah Kehna Hoga’ [If you want to live in Kashmir, you have to chant Allah]) made the Pundits quite insecure."
- ^ Hussain, Shahla (2021), Kashmir in the Aftermath of Partition, Cambridge University Press, p. 320, ISBN 978-1-108-49046-7
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