Talk:Wesleyan

Ohio Wesleyan Misinformation

On many of Ohio Wesleyan University's foreign language pages, the author has erroneosly named the institution Wesleyan University. This leads to misinformation. Could someone who understands these languages please rectify this? 24.2.244.245 05:19, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Disambig'ing pages

I've gone through and disambig'd the dozen or so articles that linked here, refering them all the their appropriate place (I hope!). The only one remaining is on some user's Talk page, and is part of some complex filing system that I wouldn't want to mess with.
--Asbestos 02:06, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Other Wesleyans

I arrived at the "twenty-two" universities figure from this page: http://www.nwjc.ac.jp/en/top/links/#001

The list includes

 Wesleyan University  	       Connecticut, USA
 Wesleyan College 	          Georgia, USA
 Dakota Wesleyan University 	  South Dakota, USA
 Illinois Wesleyan University 	  Illinois, USA
 Indiana Wesleyan University 	  Indiana, USA
 Iowa Wesleyan College 	          Iowa, USA
 Kansas Wesleyan University 	  Kansas, USA
 Kentucky Wesleyan College 	  Kentucky, USA
 Nebraska Wesleyan University 	  Nebraska, USA
 North Carolina Wesleyan College  North Carolina, USA
 Ohio Wesleyan University 	  Ohio, USA
 Roberts Wesleyan College 	  New York, USA
 Southern Wesleyan University 	  South Carolina, USA
 Texas Wesleyan University 	  Texas, USA
 Virginia Wesleyan College 	  Virginia, USA
 West Virginia Wesleyan College   West Virginia, USA
 Tennessee Wesleyan College 	  Tennessee, USA
 Bartlesville Wesleyan College    Oklahoma, USA
 Central Wesleyan College 	  South Carolina, USA
 Nagasaki Wesleyan Jr. College    Nagasaki Prefecture, Japan
 Nagasaki Wesleyan University 	  Nagasaki Prefecture, Japan

--Asbestos, 2004 Oct 31

Order of any referenced universities

Hi, anonymous editor (132.236.193.62). I reverted your edit because you removed the reference to the 20 other "Wesleyan" universities, and randomly decided to switch the order of Wesleyan University and Ohio Wesleyan University. I assume that you are either a student/alumnus of Ohio Wesleyan, or are otherwise enamored with it, from your numerous contributions to its own Wiki entry.

However, as Wesleyan University was the first "Wesleyan" university founded, and since a Google search of "Wesleyan" comes up with it as its first hit (suggesting more links and references to it, suggesting that Wesleyan University is better known), it would appear to make make sense for it to be the first citation.

As for removing my references to the other twenty Wesleyan's, is Ohio Wesleayn any more of a "Wesleyan" than Wesleyan College, Central Wesleyan College, Dakota Wesleyan University, or any of the others?

I'm not trying to start an edit war, so do let me know here why you think otherwise. :)
--Asbestos 00:03, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It would be really good if you could post here first before reverting, or we'll never get anywhere. Could you please explain why you *again* thought it necessary to switch the order of Wesleyan University and Ohio Wesleyan?

To add further arguments to those above, let me also mention that, not only does Google find that Wesleyan University is referenced more often AND linked more often to than Ohio Wesleyan, more Wikipedia articles link to the fomer as well (55 links to Wesleyan University, compared to 37 to Ohio Wesleyan).

More importantly, ALL of the articles that linked to the disambiguation page (this one) that were about universities meant to link to Wesleyan University, and NONE of them meant to link to Ohio Wesleyan (this was before I went through and disambig'd all the pages). Following Wikipedia's principle of "least surprise," those pages would be less surprised to come to a dismbig page who's first link was Wesleuan U, as opposed to Ohio Wesleyan.

Given that you are the same person that keeps inserting irrelevant Ohio Wesleyan references into Wesleyan U's own wikipedia article, I realize that you have a very high opinion of your university. I'd like you to please follow Wikipedia's NPOV principles, however, and also to post in the talk pages of those articles you revert before you revert them.

I've now reverted this page again. Please post here if you choose to revert yet again.

--Asbestos 20:44, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

---

Google.com is not an authoritative source for anything. If you feel you need to add information info, please do so, but do not delete other useful information. My opinion about any university is not sufficient ground to change the order of the entries. However, I created the page and I put the Ohio Wesleyan University entry, so any other other addition has to come after it. I apologize, but google.com is not a strong rationale.

~~PN

Hi PN, thanks for finally getting back to me.

First, your arguments in order: Google is a fine source for finding how how the internet as a whole views different sites. Searching for "Wesleyan" comes up with "Wesleyan University" as its fist link. This implies that more sites refer to www.wesleyan.edu by the term "Wesleyan" than they do any other site, including Ohio Wesleyan. In this sense, Google is a majority's voice arbiter.

Second, Google wasn't my only source, I also used the number of links to the two sites on Wikipedia, and, most importantly, the sites that linked to the disambiguation page. You had a disambiguation page where the very first entry was "Ohio Wesleyan University", yet not one single page that linked to the disambig page meant to go to Ohio Wesleyan. Several of them, however, meant to go to Wesleyan University. This point was very clearly described in my last post.

Third, why do you think I deleted information? If anything, you or the previous anonymous user deleted the fact that twenty other Wesleyans exist, and I'm very pleased that you decided to leave that information this time around. However, I most certainly did not delete a single word from this entry since I started editing this page.

Finally, the fact that you created this page does not give you total control over it, so that shouldn't enter into the discussion. Wikipedia articles or disambig pages are for the good of the community as a whole, and are not supposed to be vanity presses, nor are they supposed to preferentially point to pages that shouldn't be preferentially pointed to. You and/or other users have clearly made it your mission to point as many pages possible to Ohio Wesleyan uni, including yet again inserting an irrelevant reference to it within Wesleyan University's page and a clearly POV edit in the Methodism page where you claimed that "The most famous school among [originally Methodist] institutions is the prestigious Ohio Wesleyan University in Delaware, Ohio," which is not only POV but also incorrect, unless you cite your reference. I'd appreciate it if you would not only give an argument for why Ohio should be inserted into these random places, but also why you insist on placing Ohio Wesleyan first on this page, a question that I asked you in my last post, yet one which you have not yet answered.

I'm reverting this page. Unfortunately I cannot follow Wikipedia's recommendation of finding neutral ground, as our edits are mutually exclusive. If you wish to change it back, please describe what makes you place Ohio Wesleyan in front of Wesleyan University, and perhaps we can make this into a proper discussion.

Thank you very much, --Asbestos 02:03, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

---

Here is my input IN CAPS, Dear Asbestos:

It would be really good if you could post here first before reverting, or we'll never get anywhere. Could you please explain why you *again* thought it necessary to switch the order of Wesleyan University and Ohio Wesleyan?

I CREATED THE PAGE, SO IN THE VERY BEGINNING THERE WASN'T EVEN A MENTION OF WESLEYAN(CT). FEEL FREE TO ADD IT, BUT ONLY SECOND TO THE ORIGINAL CONTRIBUTION. ORDER SHOULDN'T MATTER BUT I BELIEVE THIS IS AT THE VERY LEAST A CASE OF COMMON COURTESY TO THE ORIGINAL CONTRIBUTOR.

To add further arguments to those above, let me also mention that, not only does Google find that Wesleyan University is referenced more often AND linked more often to than Ohio Wesleyan, more Wikipedia articles link to the fomer as well (55 links to Wesleyan University, compared to 37 to Ohio Wesleyan).

THAT'S HARDLY AN ARGUMENT FOR ANYTHING! YOU CAN PROBABLY FIND JUST AS MANY LINKS TO THE WESLEYAN CHURCH AND THAT WON'T PROVE A THING.

AS FOR THE NUMBER...I WILL ADVISE YOU TO RECOUNT THE NUMBERS AGAIN. PERHAPS MY PHD EDUCATION FAILS ME BUT I COULD COUNT MORE WESLEYAN (OH) LINKS WITHIN THE ENCYCLOPEDIA THAT YOUR 55 (BTW, 53) LINK TO WESLEYAN (CT).

More importantly, ALL of the articles that linked to the disambiguation page (this one) that were about universities meant to link to Wesleyan University, and NONE of them meant to link to Ohio Wesleyan (this was before I went through and disambig'd all the pages). Following Wikipedia's principle of "least surprise," those pages would be less surprised to come to a dismbig page who's first link was Wesleuan U, as opposed to Ohio Wesleyan.

REALLY? IF THAT'S THE CASE SHOULDN'T HAVE THEY TURNED INTO ONE OF YOUR 55 LINKS? STILL LESS THAN THE ONES THAT REFER TO OHIO WESLEYAN. THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT MOST OF THE LINKS ON WIKIPEDIA ARE PROBABLY METHODIST-RELATED LINKS. THEY PROBABLY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EITHER WESLEYAN. SO, THIS WILL DISCOUND YOUR "LEASE SURPRISE" ARGUMENT. IN OTHER WORDS, SOMEONE WHO IS LOOKING FOR WESLEYAN IS MORE LIKELY TO BE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING ELSE RELATED TO A WESLEYAN MOVEMENT, ETC THAN WESLEYAN (OH) OR WESLEYAN (CT).

Given that you are the same person that keeps inserting irrelevant Ohio Wesleyan references into Wesleyan U's own wikipedia article, I realize that you have a very high opinion of your university.

MY ADDITIONS ARE NOT BASED ON OPINION. THOUGH I APPRECIATE YOUR ATTEMPT AND RELENTNESS LOGIC TO GUESS MY EDITING BEHAVIOUR. IT IS BASED ON CONFUSIONS BY PEOPLE AS TO WHAT WESLEYAN ONE MEANS. SURELY, IF YOU EVER REFER TO WESLEYAN, THE RESPONSE WILL BE..."WHICH ONE?". SO, MY ATTEMPTS ARE MEANT TO DISPEL SOME CONFUSION ABOUT THE TWO MOST FAMOUS AND MOST COMMONLY CONFUSED ONES. THAT'S ALL

I'd like you to please follow Wikipedia's NPOV principles, however, and also to post in the talk pages of those articles you revert before you revert them.

COULD YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW I DO NOT FOLLOW THE NPOC PRINCIPLES? IF ANYTHING, I CAN FIND A LOT MORE PRINCIPLES THAT YOUR EDITING VIOLATES.

THANKS.

--Ranamim

Hi Ranamim,

[note, both my post and my post above were written after Ranamim's posts, but because of the organization I only saw this one later. I've re-organized.]

I'm afraid that you've shot yourself in the foot, but we'll get to the reson why in a moment:

First:

"I CREATED THE PAGE, SO IN THE VERY BEGINNING THERE WASN'T EVEN A MENTION OF WESLEYAN(CT)"

Again, this is entirely irrelevant. I could write a page explaining why Buddism is evil, and then complain when people edit it because "I was there first," but this would carry no weight.

"...THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT MOST OF THE LINKS ON WIKIPEDIA ARE PROBABLY METHODIST-RELATED LINKS. ... IN OTHER WORDS, SOMEONE WHO IS LOOKING FOR WESLEYAN IS MORE LIKELY TO BE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING ELSE RELATED TO A WESLEYAN MOVEMENT, ETC THAN WESLEYAN (OH) OR WESLEYAN (CT)"

You're absolutely right, and I'm changing the order of these two items in the diambig page right now.

"AS FOR THE NUMBER...I WILL ADVISE YOU TO RECOUNT THE NUMBERS AGAIN. PERHAPS MY PHD EDUCATION FAILS ME BUT I COULD COUNT MORE WESLEYAN (OH) LINKS WITHIN THE ENCYCLOPEDIA THAT YOUR 55 (BTW, 53) LINK TO WESLEYAN (CT)."

Now Ranamim.... this is where you've shot yourself in the foot. I really don't want to insult your intelligence, but are you really telling me that you didn't know that a user's edits can be found here [1] on Wikipedia?

I admit that I was confused when I looked at the number of links. Could it have been that I had really miscounted? Then a thought struck me, and I really hoped that you wouldn't be as low as to change the links so that more would point to Ohio Wesleyan.

First of all, you ADDED links to Ohio Wesleyan, in Oberlin College and Midwest. Next, you flagerantly created a series of articles who's sole purpous would seem to be to link to Ohio Wesleyan. Not only did you create a dozen one-paragraph articles for various Ohio Wesleyan Alumns, I happened to notice someone had placed a Wikipedia:Copyrights notice on one of them (Nevin Scrimshaw). Worried for a moment, I started looking more of the articles you created up on Google. Amazingly

Horace Newton Allen, Paul B. Sears, Harlan smith, Stephen H. Fritchman, Samuel Hitt Elbert, Mary King, Gilbert Van Tassel Hamilton, Afi-Odelia E. Scruggs, William McKendree Bryant, Shirin R. Tahir-Kheli, Guy Benton Johnson, The Transcript

...ALL of them were COPIED (CUT-and-PASTED) straight from articles on the Web (often with spelling errors intact). And all done within four hours of seeing my note that more pages linked to Wesleyan U than Ohio W. Now tell me, did your PhD education that you are so pleased with teach you to copy like that? This is in flagerant abuse of Wikipedia's copyright regulations, and is against any plagarism rules you would find in any university (I can also note that, according to the copyright warning someone placed on your page, "...those with a history of violations may be temporarily suspended from editing pages").

Finally, along with adding extra links to Ohio W where they didn't belog and cut-and-pasting articles to boost your count, you then DELETED valid links to Wesleyan University (Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. Regions/ Official Region Article Prototype and Highwayman). The second of these was promptly reverted by one of the main authors of that article, and I reverted the first. Unfortunately I don't know if you logged on as another user or anonymously in order to commit further vandalisms or copyright violoations, as I wouldn't know how to do that.

Ranamim, I'm reverting this one last time. If you revert again, I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask the sysops to step in. You flagerant addition of copyright information and targeted deletion of Wesleyan U links is enough for that, not to mention your inability to revert pages without adding comments as to why you believe your version is better.

Thank you,

--Asbestos 02:52, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

EDIT BY Ranamim:

WELL, I THINK WE HAVE TO COME TO A COMPROMISE OR ELSE IT WON'T WORK. IT IS THE NATURE OF ANY CONFLICT OF INTERESTS. YOU LEAVE THE WESLEYAN PAGE ALONE AND NO OTHER INSERTIONS GO INTO THE WESLEYAN UNIVERSITY PAGE? OTHERWISE, THESE REVERSALS CAN GO ON FOREVER...WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Hi PN,

Since you haven't given a single reason for putting Ohio W first, beyond the fact that you created this page, and beyond copying-and-pasting a dozen copy-righted articles linking to Ohio W (which have been listed on Wikipedia:Copyright problems by User:Gazpacho and myself, though I'm pleased to see that you've since edited some of them), I see no reason for Ohio W to go first. Could you give me some real reasons, if you're still wishing to continue this war?
Also, you yourself stated that it would be better for the Methodism link to come first. I agreed with you and switched them (thinking we had at last found something we agree on). Now it appears that you have changed your mind, or do you just revert everything I do on principle?

--Asbestos 12:11, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have given you a single reason. PLease open your eyes and read it above. If you choose to ignore it, that's a different thing. Also, I posted something right before your last comment...could you please take a look at it?

trivial issue

I cannot imagine why this trivial issue is of such importance to Ranamim. He suggests on my talk page (writing in what seems to me a mildly threatening and sometimes insulting style), that as an alumnus of Wesleyan University (which I am) I am biased and should refrain from editing this disambiguation page.

For the most part, I don't feel any personal stake in which university is listed first. I only came into this because User:Asbestos asked me to have a look at this page and I attempted a rewrite. For what it is worth, I've stated my case on Ranamim's user page and will reproduce that here:

Yes, for the record, I am an alumnus of Wesleyan University. You ask (without apparently wanting an answer), why should Wesleyan University be listed on the disambiguation page Wesleyan ahead of Ohio Wesleyan University? The answer is because "Wesleyan University" is commonly called "Wesleyan", just like "Harvard University" is commonly called "Harvard", "Williams College" is commonly called "Williams" and "Ohio Wesleyan University" is commonly called "Ohio Wesleyan". Normally, I wouldn't expect Ohio Wesleyan to show up on the disambiguation page of "Wesleyan" at all -- no more so than Bartlesville Wesleyan, Illinois Wesleyan, etc. I left it there as a courtesy because some editor (I take it, you) seemed to believe that it was commonly called just "Wesleyan" (if it is, I suspect it is a very local usage in Ohio). However, certainly in most contexts if someone refers just to "Wesleyan" they mean Wesleyan University, not Ohio Wesleyan University, just like if someone refers to "Columbia" they presumably mean the one in New York, not the one in Missouri. "First post" has nothing to do with it. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:32, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)

I have no intention of acting further on this myself in terms of the text of this article; as I say, it seems to me a relatively trivial matter.

I think the record here speaks for itself as to who is or is not biased and who is taking an excessive stake in that matter. Ranamim says I should stay out of this because I am an alumnus of Wesleyan University. I would be rather surprised if he/she has no association with Ohio Wesleyan. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:58, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)

Summary of Asbestos's Position

Hi PN:

I am going to attempt to summarize my position on this issue:

I believe that

• Entries within a disambiguation follow a specific order, based on

• How likely it is that an article's title would be confused with the disambiguation page title, and
• How well-known or well-referenced a given subject is. This would correlate to how much interest there is in this subject.

I have shown that

• Potential confusions:

• The majority of articles that originally linked to this disambiguation meant to link to the Methodism article,
• The rest of the articles meant to link to Wesleyan University,
• None of those articles meant to linked to Ohio Wesleyan University (you have shown skepticism of these claims in the past. If you like you can see all the pages I disambiged in my contribution list (on Nov 4th) [2]),
• A Google search in the form ("studied at wesleyan" -"wesleyan university" -"wesleyan college") (i.e. aimed at getting any references to any page that mentions a educational place named "Wesleyan" without the words "university" or "college" tacked on to the end) finds that ALL of the articles that say "so-and-so studied at Wesleyan" refer specifically to Wesleyan University. None of them refered to Ohio Wesleyan University. This would be evidence that more people refer to WU by the term "Wesleyan" than they do OWU. In the past, you claimed that just as many people refer to Ohio Wesleyan University as "Wesleyan," but you have yet to show evidence to back up your claim.

• How well known a subject is:

• A Google search of "Wesleyan" shows "Wesleyan University" as its first hit. By Google's page rank system, we know that this means more pages linked to Wesleyan University by using the word "Wesleyan" than they did any other page,
• A Google search of "from wesleyan university" (i.e. aimed at picking out a subset of those articles which mention "Wesleyan University" without a named tacked on the begining) returns 13,200 pages, a search of "from ohio wesleyan university" returns 3,070 pages (if you can think of a better way of counting the number of pages that refer to Wesleyan U without a prefix, let me know, but this should return approximately equally-proportionate subsets from both),
• Until I mentioned it, spurring you to copy-and-paste the dozen articles from the web to link to OWU (you have thankfully edited some of these articles now) and delete valid links to WU, more Wikipedia articles linked to WU than OWU.

As far as I can gather from our conversation above, your arguments for your position have been

• My arguments don't necessarily prove anything,
• You were here first.

If you feel that this is not an acurate portrayal of your position, please point me to any of your previously-made comments of yours that would correct me.

Ranamim, the only reason that I am so verbosely continuing what Jmabel refered to as a "trivial argument" is that

• you refuse to state valid reasons for your position (beyond the two "arguments" above),
• you have implied that the only reason I disagree with you is that I (and Jmabel) are biased, rather than seeing that I disagree with you for the reasons on list above,
• you have conducted yourself in an unprofessional manner by: reverting pages without stating why; adding copyright material to Wikipedia without citation in an attempt to win a "point"; accusing me of violating copyright by uploading images, which stated they were uploaded under Fair Use, while having uploaded simlar images which contained no statement of Fair Use; offering a quid-pro-quo agreement to me where-by you would stop added irelevant links to OWU from the Wesleyan University page if I would let you keep your order on this page; and warning Jmabel and myself in our personal talk pages that "Things would get ugly" if we continued debating this with you.

I am, however, perfectly open to accepting a compromise whereby all the "Wesleyan" universities are listed, in the order that they show up in on a Google search for "Wesleyan" (for the reasons explained above). For some bizzare reason you deleted my list of the 20 other Wesleyans from this talk page, but fortunately I can find it from the article's history. I am editing the article to reflect my proposed compromise.

If you don't feel like accepting this compromise, could you please state your position in a similar manner to the way I did, or we'll never be able to see where we are in this discussion.

Thank you,
--Asbestos 22:46, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

---

Dude, get educated at a better place than Wesleyan. Perhaps your not-so-academically serious institution taught you that Google.com is an authoritative source for references and publications. Outside of Connecticut Wesleyan that's not the case. That's so ridiculous, I wonder...how on Earth you are expecting someone to respond to you?? It is like randomly picking a book and getting the word that most frequently appears there as the word that people use most frequently.

As you keep refusing to sign in before reverting, and as your post was irrelevent, insulting and patently absurd, I'm reverting without much discussion. Your edit to my post in Methodism, by the way, was reverted and named vandalism by another user. --Asbestos

To whomever anonymously referred to Wesleyan (presumably the one in Connecticut: it seems that even the person who was trying to claim this is not how people use the name unconsciously did so him/herself) as a "not-so-academically serious institution": I find this perversely amusing. I'm almost afraid to know, but what is your idea of an academically serious institution?

By the way, your subsequent reference to "Connecticut Wesleyan" is simply wrong. The school never had that name. It was originaly "The Wesleyan University". Some of us think it may be unfortunate in precisely this context that it ever dropped the word "The" from the name. It would be so nice to just clarify by saying "The Wesleyan". -- Jmabel | Talk 00:37, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

In fact, increadibly enough, the the IP address of the anonymous user who insulted Wesleyan above, who told me to "get a life" and who continually reverts my NPOV edit in Methodism even after it was denounced as being vandalism by another user, comes from none other than Cornell University, coincedentally the same university as Ranamim. Ranamim (or his friend), kindly stop hiding behind anonymous posts in an attempt to get around Wikipedia's rules on etiquette and general good manners. --Asbestos 01:05, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Alphabetical order is the solution to this problem. Asbestos, you should stop because there is no different solution to this problem. You are right OWU happens to appear before WU in the alphabetical order, but it also appears after several other universities. -John

Hi "John",
You've had quite a busy night tonight, changing every single link to Wesleyan University and playing naive-newbie who thought he was just doing the right thing by turning WU into a disambiguation page. Please stop vandalizing our pages. People work quite hard on Wikipedia, and all those people who's pages you vandalized didn't deserve to have your war spill onto their articles.
For my reasons for stating that User:Ranamim and User:John69 are one and the same, please see my post on User talk:Rdsmith4
--Asbestos 03:11, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hey Jmabel,

You said: "I left it there as a courtesy because some editor (I take it, you) seemed to believe that it was commonly called just "Wesleyan" (if it is, I suspect it is a very local usage in Ohio). However, certainly in most contexts if someone refers just to "Wesleyan" they mean Wesleyan University, not Ohio Wesleyan University"

You will appreciate to know that CNN is your "very local usage" network: www.cnn.com/2002/fyi/teachers.ednews/04/30/classroom.affairs.ap/

Cheers mate... (I don't have the time to try to find other examples. I surely hope that CNN.com is convincing enough for you.)

-Ranamim

Um, Ranamim... The article calls the university "Ohio Wesleyan University" in their very first paragraph.
After that point, they've described exactly which university they mean, so refer to it by a shorter name. You'll notice there's no mention of Rome, Ohio on the article on Rome, even though many articles on CNN undoubtably refer to Rome, OH, as "Rome" after they've specified which they mean in their first paragraph.
--Asbestos 21:29, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

When was the last time you saw an optician? Sorry about the tone but you either seem not to notice, not to understand or what? Is it Ohio's Wesleayn University or Ohio Wesleyan University. Does it not repeatedly refer to the college as Wesleyan? What was Jmabel's claim? He doubted that "it was commonly called just "Wesleyan" (if it is, I suspect it is a very local usage in Ohio". Well the way you disprove a claim in formal logic (the least elegant way of doing it) is showing an example to the contrary. I found one such example. So, proof completed. QED. I mean I don't know how to be more convincing...how can I show something to a blind person?

Ranamim

My point, Ranamim, was that CNN specified which they meant in the begining. They never called it "Wesleyan" without first having specified the one in OH. NYT articles on Wesleyan University, however, refer to it as "Wesleyan University" right off the bat, without having to say "Connecticut's Wesleyan University" (and in fact, in their latest article (Nov 7), refer to it simply as "Wesleyan" from the very begining).

As for your continual deletion of links, did you see four of the ones you keep deleting link to actual articles? And as for the rest, have you seen the Mercury disambiguation page - the page cited most in Wikipedia's tutorial on disambig's? The extra links are there if someone were to create such a page: they shouldn't need to know that they need to come here and update this page. That's the great think about Wikipedia: you have links that become active when people create the article. Have you truely never noticed the Red Links on the OWU page, or did you just think that those ones should be kept and these ones not?
--Asbestos 21:45, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Actually, (1) the first paragraph refers to "Ohio's Wesleyan University", which is simply wrong. And for whatever it's worth, this article on CNN's site is attributed to Associated Press. To me, this looks like a simple screwup by AP, probably passed along without even a proofread by CNN. Things happen. A carefully chosen sample of size one doesn't demonstrate much. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:59, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)

-- Of course it is wrong. The know-it-all computer scientist can never get it wrong. CNN gets it wrong. AP gets it wrong. People like you are the worst to argue with since you seem to compensate for your lack of knowledge by obstinacy, which is almost always (and certainly in your case) equal to intellectual laziness. I am not sure what your reasoning skills say about CT's Wesleyan. Enough said. I was trying to show something by using what seemed to me sources forming and formed by public opinion but I guess I am wasting my time with people like you. Ranamim

I'm confused about what you're arguing. So are you saying that OWU really is called "Ohio's Wesleyan University"? Shall we change the title of the Wikipedia article then, if CNN is correct? --Asbestos 13:48, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Oh, man, get a coffee or something. The argument is whether Ohio Wesleyan could be/is/has been referred to as "Wesleyan". Hey, is this the discussion for the 'Wesleyan' keyword or what? Wake up, Asbestos, wake up.

Ranamim

Ranamim, for a guy who is so critical of everyone else, you seem to do a lot of misreading. As Asbestos pointed out, what I said was "simply wrong" was that the article's first reference was to "Ohio's Wesleyan University". This is not a matter of my "reasoning skills": it is an accurate statement.

Since standard style at both AP and CNN is to refer to something by its proper name first, this incorrect first use suggests that (despite having a prestigious employer) this reporter was either incompetent or confused. This "thirteenth strike of the clock" makes this a useless citation in terms of examples of common usage of "Wesleyan University": either this reporter or a proofreader or someone in the chain screwed up at least once on a name issue in this article, so it is hardly authoritative. And, yes, I would accept an AP or CNN article that didn't have a flaw like this as much stronger evidence that in a national scope Ohio Wesleyan University might sometimes be called Wesleyan University.

By the way, I am formally asking you to stop the ad hominem attacks. If this continues, I will start a Request for Comment. I've been involved in Wikipedia over a year and I've never gone that route, but I don't believe I've ever before been accused of being unknowledgable, obstinate, intellectually lazy, or having poor reasoning skills, and being accused of all four by one person with whom I've interacted over only one trivial matter is a bit much. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:20, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

name ordering controversy

Hi folks

As far as I know the schools with "Wesleyan" in their name are generally known locally as just "Wesleyan."

Wesleyan University in CT is the most exclusive of the bunch and has maintained a constant low-level PR campaign to position itself as the real "Wesleyan," with the goal of requiring all others to use adjectives, and states that this is because it was founded some years before the others. At one point they sold a T shirt that was part of this campaign, that included a more lengthy list of schools than the one we have here, with a punch line to the effect of the Middletown, CT school being the only actual "Wesleyan."

I don't believe that here at Wikipedia it is appropriate for us to buy into the PR. List the schools alphabetically.

For what it's worth, of the others, Ohio Wesleyan is probably the most well known nationally. The remaining schools draw chiefly local or regional students.

uc 21:50, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hi UC,
Fortunately, I don't believe there's any more order contoversy: The links are alphabetical and noone seems to be threatening to change that.
You're last comment, though, while irrelevent in the context of this article as it stands, is surprising. What's your source? --Asbestos 21:59, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Edit: Oh, "of the others, Ohio Wesleyan...." I see. Woops. --Asbestos 22:00, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

By the way, the t-shirt in question was created by undergrads in the 1980s. I don't remember the University itself selling it, although unsurprisingly the university book store, Atticus Books, took the opportunity. I believe (although I'm not certain) that Atticus is an independent business. It moved off campus around 1974.

And for whatever it's worth, I agree that Ohio Wesleyan is probably the second best-known school with "Wesleyan" in the name. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:05, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

I probably will agree that the Wesleyan in CT is more well-known by a slight margin to Ohio's Wesleyan but I believe this is only due to the fact that the one in CT is twice as big (and hardly a college) and because of its location (Northeast vs Midwest). Otherwise, both schools recruit nationally and are known to pretty much everyone who knows anything about liberal arts colleges.

Ranamim

Chronological order

Putting them in chronological order does two things, it is a neutral plan, and it also gets the more likely sought after schools close to the top. Generally speaking, people are more likely to be looking for institutions that have been around for some time compared to ones just a few dacades old. The chart also distinguishes the ones that are still Methodist-related from others, and does it quickly and clearly. Someone recently took the chart apart, and I restored it.

• The disambiguation manual covers this in greater length. Alphabetical order is the least controversial order as it doesn't assume that any one of the institutions is more sought after than another. If you think that any one is most common than another, please point to a legitimate reference and place the reference in the page. Sharekept99 20:22, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

"As it doesn't assume that any one of the institutions is more sought after than another" a patently erroneous assumption. Reversed.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.133.124.199 (talk • contribs) 00:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC).

If you read this page alone, there is a consensus here that a) Wesleyan at Middletown is the largest and likely the most looked for, probably followed by Ohio Wesleyan. That alone shows that an alphabetical listing is less than adequate.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.133.124.195 (talk • contribs) 02:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC).

• It looks like the last edits were made by the same IP address originating from Wesleyan University that does not wish to register, yet engages in ad hominem attacks. This user is already engaging in edit wars with Rbellin, who left a comment on the IP's talk page "Wikipedia has policies on civility and assuming good faith, and guidelines on good manners. Considering that there has been a bunch of quite belligerent recent edits from this and other similar IP addresses, I'd suggest you read those policies (as well as familiarizing yourself with WP:NPOV, our core policy on bias). Otherwise you may end up blocked from editing. -- Rbellin|Talk 04:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC)" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Imageunit (talk • contribs) 20:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC). (and copied from here

  The list was in chronological order before the edits by 129.133.124.195 et al. And I can't find any mention of alphabetical order in the disambiguation manual WP:MOSDAB. It instead promotes ordering by usage. -- JHunterJ 21:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

  JHunterJ, the list has always been alphabetical precisely to avoid an argument on the page about which university is better known as "Wesleyan" than another. The June 4, 2006 edit by user:Jmabel spells out exactly that. It was the February 14, 2006 edit by User:Ychennay that the arguments about which is better known (redressed in which is the oldest) reappeared. A quick look at the other edits of User:Ychennay quickly reveals that he is not an unbiased editor. Imageunit 22:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Untrue, it has not always been in alphabetical order, and has been functioning quite nicely without intervention. Nor does this have anything to do with Ychennay, and you shouldn't leap to personalization of this matter.