Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems. Before posting: Read these tips for dealing with incivility If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page Try dispute resolution Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight. When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. You are not autoconfirmed, meaning you cannot currently edit this page. Instead, use /Non-autoconfirmed posts. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)
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Is it just me...

Moving long thread over 50k to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Oxford Round Table. Cheers, D.M.N. (talk) 16:01, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Future datestamp: 16:01, 11 February 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sceptre (talk • contribs)

Would somebody make sure this thread gets archived properly? Somehow I don't think shunting it off onto it's own subpage is going to allow that to happen. Pairadox (talk) 04:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the thread has died now anyway. That tends to happen when these sort of threads get moved to a subpage. The thread was also naturally coming to an end, so maybe it would have archived automatically after a day, but we will never know now. I know Betacommand has been manually archiving some noticeboards. Maybe he could deal with this subpage? Carcharoth (talk) 08:48, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

And it still sits there, abandoned and forlorn... Pairadox (talk) 04:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Orderinchaos 05:10, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I moved the thread as it is over 50k. People who have slower browsers find that this page especially loads up very slow, because of the big threads. D.M.N. (talk) 09:49, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Handling sock puppetry (block review)

• Griot (talk · contribs · logs · block log)
• Sedlam (talk · contribs · logs · block log)

Hi. I've only tangentially become involved with one or two sock puppetry cases in the past and would appreciate assistance from someone more experienced in dealing with them. Revisiting Incivility...Griot above, an editor to whom I'd given feedback on a BLP concern asked my advice on my talk page how to proceed in the case of suspected sock puppetry. He (pardon if I'm using the wrong pronoun) followed up at checkuser and confirmed that User:Sedlam evidently is a sock puppet being used to thwart policy by User:Griot. I know that per policy User:Sedlam is blocked as a matter of course as an inappropriately used alternative account. (Please correct me if I've left the wrong templates.) I'm not sure what's to be done about User:Griot. A warning? A label? He is a long-standing editor who has as far as I know has never had a problem of this sort in the past, although it seems he was blocked on the 31st of January, 2008 for edit warring, I presume on Matt Gonzalez based on this note. My only experiences with Griot prior to this were in relation to the article Cabretta, and though we haven't always agreed he seemed like a constructive contributor. Perhaps some political topics are too emotionally engaging? --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 23:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

If he was using a bad-hand sockpuppet to edit abusively, then both the primary and bad hand account should probably be blocked (based on a review of the edits in question). This is something the checkusers or checkuser clerks typically take care of, have they weighed in? Avruchtalk 00:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Other than confirming the check-user and the policy thwarting use of the account, no. I'm not sure they're going to. I notice that the matter was completed at 20:50 on February 8, and at the top of Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser, it says "In most cases, any block or other action based on the outcome will not be taken by the checkuser-people or the clerks. Instead, uyou will have to do this yourself." I'm not sure which cases constitute most. This is as close to check user as I've personally ever come. :) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 00:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

And so they did. :) Thanks for weighing in, Avruch. If I ever wind up in this situation again, I'll just wait a day to see if this falls into one of those "action to be taken" or "action not to be taken" situations. :) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 00:36, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Griot indef blocked?

Though we punish people who abusively sockpuppet, Griot is a longtime user in generally good standing prior to this incident.

However, the current block levied is indef against his main account.

This appears to be excessive and uncalled for. I agree that his sockpuppetry was abusive, but not indef-blocked abusive. A week, maybe?

Comments sought. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Agree 100% with this assessment. I have no data relevant to this specific situ, but I do have years of positive experience with User:Griot. If indeed Griot is guilty, then he has some serious explaining to do and perhaps penance of some kind. But indef block seems way extreme unless the sockpuppetry is repeated and sustained. BusterD (talk) 02:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I have no input on the proper length of a block for this situation, obviously, or I wouldn't have brought this here to begin with. :) I did not block the primary account myself because of his history, but as I said above, I have no experience with sock puppetry to speak of. I would like to note that the editor who initially requested the checkuser believes that Griot may have abused other accounts as well, as he indicated in a more recent note at my talkpage (a belief mirrored by the now blocked IP editor above). I don't know on what evidence or if these allegations are correct, but other suspicions seem to have been confirmed by checkuser. Is this the sort of thing that should be investigated prior to making final calls or only if Griot returns and concerns persist? --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 02:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm the editor who requested the checkuser on User:Griot. I have no opinion on any action to take. I would like to add the following, though. User:Griot didn't simply switch back and forth and revert and be done with it. He made a self conscious planned out effort to deceive, and presented not just reverts, but purposively deceptive talk page commentary. For instance, on the talk page, to portray some sort of "compromise" having been reached, he writes "Please click the links and observe how other editors rejected your edit:" and then lists himself and his confirmed sock puppet (and one other editor of unknown relationship to this). Then, he logs out as Griot, logs in as User:Sedlam, and writes ":You can add me to this list of compromisers." On the BLP noticeboard , Both Griot and another likely sock User:Feedler, both gave input. As Moonriddengirl mentioned, I have reason to believe the sock puppetry by Griot goes back a ways on Nader-related articles, but wasn;t caught (although the issue seems to have been raised, but the complainant seems to have gotten blocked). Griot seems to have been vigourously edit warring on Nader article for a year or so. Elsewhere, he has confessed to have a serious personal grudge against Nader. Boodlesthecat (talk) 03:55, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

The indef block is abnormal in this situation and unwarranted, in my opinion. Has the blocking admin commented? --Akhilleus (talk) 05:31, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Evidently, here, where she has indicated a willingness to go along with consensus and suggested this discussion. Personally, I'm wondering if a topical ban would be appropriate in the event that the block is made definite. It seems the sock account was used primarily to thwart consensus building and disguise edit warring on Ralph Nader and Ralph Nader's presidential campaigns. Perhaps this is evidence that the user is too emotionally invested in these articles to contribute to them as he does elsewhere? --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 12:47, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe. Looking at the history of those articles, it looks like there's a lot of editing by drive-by IPs, SPAs, possible socks, etc. We know that one of the editors on the "other side" from Griot is a persistent sockpuppeteer. So my question is, has Griot been editing abusively for a long period (in which case I'd support a topic ban), or did he only turn to sockpuppetry recently after getting frustrated by the editing environment? (Either way, the use of socks is not good, and if he does it again, the block should be much longer...) --Akhilleus (talk) 15:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know. I suppose it might be worth asking Boodlesthecat the proceed with investigating his other suspicions to find out. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 15:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Adjust the block to be slightly less than that used against the person who opposed the user via the same tactics. Lambton ^T/_C 21:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean slightly less than the IP editor recently blocked for 6 months here as a sock of User:Telogen, who was indef blocked here, or are there yet more Nader-fighting socks that I don't know about? :) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 00:27, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Reduced block

The handling of this matter was over the top IMO. As an uninvolved editor/admin, and after reading the above, I have reset the duration to one week (it says 6 days, but note a day had elapsed since the block was enacted). Consensus here should determine whether further reduction or an unblock is warranted. I am particularly surprised at the treatment of the user's user and talk pages, which I have reverted to their pre-9 Feb state, and the ignoring of the blatant incivility of Boodlesthecat by those handling the case. I will be placing a warning on his talk page shortly - ([1] done). Orderinchaos 06:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

My response to the inference of incivility is here.. Boodlesthecat (talk) 22:09, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with User:Orderinchaos. As a relatively frequent reviewer of sockpuppetry cases at WP:SSP, the standard practice has been to block named abusive socks indefinitely, but to block the master account for a finite period if it appears to have at least some constructive potential. I typically block for 72 hours (see User:Lucy-marie, for example), though others use anything from 24 hours to a week. In any case, the master account (Griot) should definitely be blocked, but for a finite period (72 hours to 1 week). Further confirmed sockpuppetry should result in a lengthy or indefinite block, but an indefinite block for a first offense by a somewhat-constructive account is excessive. MastCell ^Talk 22:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Longstanding sock puppetry by Griot

I filed another Checkuser showing the very extended sock puppetry of Griot over here. Boodlesthecat (talk) 22:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Griot deliberately misrepresenting me on his talk page

Which I don't think is allowed is not allowed on Wikipedia talk pages, so reverted it back to the original conversation. This can be seen here along with my comments on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Griot&action=history This must be considered uncivil behavior. I reverted it back to the original and he did it again. He has done it again, saying (this is my talk page) - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Griot&diff=prev&oldid=190710037<br\> However Wikipedia talk pages are not the place for purposefully misrepresenting fellow editors in a bad light.<br\> WP:Talk_page states that Article talk pages are provided for discussion of the content of articles and the views of reliable published sources. They should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views.<br\> And I am certain they are also not meant to be used in the way Griot is using his. Can someone please have him either remove all conversations between me and him from his talk page or leave the whole conversation exactly as it originally was? Thanks. BillyTFried (talk) 21:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Did I or did I not warn you to stop edit harrassing and warring with him on his talk page?

Anyone who wishes can see the old versions and edit history. Stop bothering him. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 07:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Case of "nothing to see here, move along". Seems the guy archived or removed some comments from his talk page. Orderinchaos 09:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Amongst the comments removed are challenges to transparently false statements on his talk page that attempt to portray his history on the articles he has edit warred on for years in an undeservedly favorable light. Which of course is his right. Boodlesthecat (talk) 17:02, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

As I told Billy, the history of what people have commented on there on his talk page remains for anyone who cares to dig. Our user talk page policy allows one to remove comments and warnings once they've been read, though a lot of people object to it. Policy remains what it is, though, so Griot is within his perogative, and edit-warring to restore content there is against policy etc. Best for everyone to just drop the situation - everyone knows about the CU results now, that's not going away, if he wants to clean up the talk page and protect some personal dignity then leave him alone. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:40, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Apparently BillyTFried considers what has been left on Griot's Talk page is a personal attack on him. Perhaps the personal attack should be archived the same way Griot archived the other material. -- SEWilco (talk) 16:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes I do consider it an incivil personal attack and attempted defamation of character. And its beyond me why nobody is doing anything about it. Not even just telling him to either delete all my comments or leave them the way they truly happened. Seriously, I was warned and even blocked for a couple hours once for calling him "hysterically paranoid" on my OWN Talk Page. How is this any different? Is Griot somehow immune? BillyTFried (talk) 23:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Ya know, would it be ok if somebody posted a setnence on my talk page that said...<br\>

• Hey Bill I wanted you to know that I plan to kill the whole trivia section of that article that you wrote.

And I changed that user's comment to say...

• Hey Bill I wanted you to know... that I plan to kill... you.

Would that be ok with you guys? Hey, it's all in the "history" right? BillyTFried (talk) 23:11, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Newspaper Article<br\> I just wanted you to know that the reason Griot did this and that I am so VERY upset about his purposeful misrepresentation of me which you have done nothing about is because there is a Newspaper article about Wikipedia hitting the presses tomorrow morning here in San Francisco and Griot (who is currently banned for abuse) and his abuses and sock puppetry are the main focus of the article and this will surely bring traffic to his page which shows me in an unfair light thanks to him editing out our entire conversation and making it look like it happened in a way that it actually DID NOT. (he actually deleted 90% of his talk page except for the few items left he wants highlighted [inaccurately]) My Wikipedia user name (WHICH IS MY REAL NAME THAT MY HOME ADDRESS CAN BE GOOGLED FROM) is also briefly mentioned in the article referencing that event. Griot is of course an anonymous name. I find it completely unprofessional for his misrepresentation of our conversation to be left intact when it clearly violates Wikipedia's rules on what Talk pages are for and breaks incivility rules. I am asking one more time that you please address this issue before tomorrow when many people that live here in San Francisco will be reading this article, logging on to Wikipedia and then reading an unfairly edited chop up of a conversation I had with Griot that was chopped intentionally to make me look as bad as possibly... as if I was actually threatening him with GUN VIOLENCE, which was not what I was doing AT ALL, and that was ruled to be THE TRUTH by the admins after he REPORTED ME. I was NOT banned by the admins, though Griot said I was on his talk page, and when I removed that 100% lie, he didn't fight back. But his purposely editing out of the rest of the convo to make it APPEAR to be a violent threat with a gun will go over REAL WELL in San Francisco. At the very least please review exactly what has gone on here and ask yourself if what he has done is appropriate and that your allowing it is the right thing to do. Thanks. BillyTFried (talk) 03:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

You know, based on that outburst, interested readers coming here and seeing that are NOT going to be coming to the conclusion about you that you think they're going to come to. --Calton | Talk 16:37, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking of responding earlier, but you've captured my thinking rather well. Orderinchaos 18:17, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

And just exactly what conclusion do you think "interested readers" will come to about you from your constant unrelenting defense of a confirmed sock puppeteer? BillyTFried (talk) 00:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

In the section below, it would seem that there's a case here of the pot calling the kettle black. Orderinchaos 11:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Whatever. At least I'm on the side of honesty rather than the side of deceit or tolerance of deceit, which is exactly what will eventually cause the downfall of Wikipedia. And everyone knows it. BillyTFried (talk) 22:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

At least I'm on the side of honesty rather than the side of deceit or tolerance of deceit - hence your whole-hearted embrace of a long-banned, anger-management-impaired, and self-promoting sockpuppeteer who got her sister to practice a little yellow journalism on the side? Hence your abusive outburst above complaining about abuse? Strange new meaning of the word "honesty" of which I was previously unaware. --Calton | Talk 14:09, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

My whole-hearted embrace of who??? I have no idea what you're talking about and if you want to hold on to what little credibility you have left, I suggest you refrain from making any more false accusations with absolutely no evidence to back them up. Let's get the facts straight here. I have never supported or embraced a sock puppeteer on Wikipedia and never will. I think it's an extremely shameful behavior that I would never want to be associated with. You however very obviously have and continue to do so. You are clearly guilty as charged and so instead of hopelessly trying to refute that charge you instead go on the offensive and falsely accuse me of doing the very thing that everyone is witnessing you doing. That's pretty ridiculous. Is defending confirmed sock puppeteer Griot really worth eroding your own credibility like this? And since you're struggling with the word honesty, here's a hint for you... Leaving people's talk page comments as they originally were posted = HONEST... Removing all but one paragraph to make them appear to have happened in a manner which they did not = DISHONEST. BillyTFried (talk) 19:04, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

You know, based on that outburst, interested readers coming here and seeing that are NOT going to be coming to the conclusion about you that you think they're going to come to, however well a reporter tried to paint you. Hint: when in a hole, it's best to stop digging. --Calton | Talk 20:38, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Calton, I just stumbled in, but I didn't see anything abusive that Billy said. He seems to be in honest anguish about something, and he made some complaints, but he was not abusive. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 06:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

You're not much for originality eh? Nothing on my end needs painting. But I believe making false accusations and openly defending a confirmed sock puppet would indicate it is you who is holding the shovel and is in way over his head. BillyTFried (talk) 20:49, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

But I believe making false accusations and openly defending a confirmed sock puppet "Mr. Pot? It's Mr. Kettle on Line 3. He says you're black." The "in way over his head" part is just a bonus bit of irony.

You can put down that shovel any time now, you know. And I didn't realize that originality was a criteria in giving sound advice. Should I move the words around a bit for you, translate it into hieroglyphics, recast it into blank verse? There's no real value in rewriting a message you don't want to pay attention to in the first place. --Calton | Talk 21:03, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Calton, your tired and insulting guilt by association attacks on other editors are getting to be a monstrous snore, and transparently disingenous. It was you who dragged me into this muck with a false and malicious insinuation of sock puppetry on my part, for which you not only never apologized, but instead leveled a steady torrent of abuse my way. On top of which, you never acknowledge your own complicity with the proven sock puppeteer and tabloid pheenom GRIOT. Why not just knock it off already and quit making a spectacle of yourself? Some of us are simply interested in working on articles on achieving a bit of balance on Wikipedia, and really could care less for the silly dramas we get sucked into (e.g., by my having to waste time filing the successful sock puppetry notice against GRIOT while you were busy filing a bogus one against me--not to late to apologize!). Boodlesthecat (talk) 21:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Calton, your pot/kettle comment is suggesting that I am the one who has made a false accusations and defended a sock puppeteer. What false accusation have I made? What sock puppeteer have I defended?<br\>

• You have aligned yourself with and defended a confirmed and presently banned sock puppeteer, Griot - True or False?
• You have accused me of "wholeheartedly embracing a long-banned, anger-management-impaired, and self-promoting sock puppeteer" but never named the user or gave any proof of such. What is the name of this user and where is the diff showing me "embracing" or even being involved in a discussion with or about this this person? If what you have accused me of really never happened at all, is that not in fact a false accusation?
• What is your purpose posting in this ANI discussion I started? To purport that Griot altering my comments on his talk page to make the conversation appear differently than it really occurred is NOT incivil? Or is there something else you are trying to accomplish?

--BillyTFried (talk) 21:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The answer to the second question is self-evident - this checkuser contains the relevant information. Orderinchaos 16:43, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

You mean the FACT that I have NEVER posted a single word ANYWHERE on Wikipedia in ANY discussion with or about that user is self evident?? Let alone wholeheartedly embraced him or her?? You must be part of the Griot/Calton alliance to be bold enough to try and back up Calton's very obviously false accusation. So tell me, are there more troops on the way? BillyTFried (talk) 18:09, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Article in San Francisco Weekly

here is the San Francisco Weekly article that BillyTFried refers to above. I don't think I would be exaggerating too much if I said that it attempts to out an anonymous Wikipedia editor, contains numerous insults that would, if they appeared on Wikipedia, be a violation of WP:NPA, and is by the sister of a banned sockpuppeteer (see, e.g., Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Telogen) to boot. According to a previous thread on this board, the reporter (User:Marynega) was in contact with Wikipedia PR and a number of Wikipedians; I trust that nobody knew what the content of the article was going to be, but it's still a bit distressing that this piece got produced with the help of Foundation members. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Crude hatchet-job. I'm surprised she got it past her editors. I've already dashed off a quick Letter to the Editor pointing out a conflict of interest or two that the reporter neglected to mention, including quoting a banned sockpuppet of her own sister without mentioning that fact: seems a wee lapse of journalistic ethics, there. --Calton | Talk 16:37, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Is it this paragraph that makes you feel that way?

“ That's when Jeanne, who is also a writer, told me of a debate over the entry about her in Wikipedia — and of one particular user, Griot, who seemed to be on a no-holds-barred campaign to delete her page after he blamed her for making dubious edits to Ralph Nader's page (which she denies). One Griot note on the talk page of a user called Calton, dated Aug. 27, 2007, reads, "Is there anything we can do about Jean [sic]? It's tiresome. Maybe we should give her back her personal page on Wikpedia so she isn't so lonely." He also accused her of creating several online identities to make a flurry of changes to the Nader entries. "Spicuzza is on the warpath again," Griot wrote to Calton, and made a snarky offer to Calton about my sister: "If you ever need help fending off this multiple personality disorder, don't hesitate to ask." ”

Is what the reporter said about you a lie? What she said about me is certainly hard to believe... ;-)

“ Fried actually struck me as a well-meaning and earnest editor — one of the few willing to use his real name (and even agreeing to meet in person) to talk about his devotion to Wikipedia. ”

BillyTFried (talk) 21:50, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Calton, you also sound very angry and emotional here:

“ Its amazing the hyperbole the usual cast of beer drinking NASCAR driving invisible being in the sky worshipping can spew out of their uneducated mouths. If you don't like the system bucky, then get out of it. Mmm'kay?

Point is, you dolts can spew whatever bogosity you want, Wikipedia will be standing in the end. Our truth, the Wiki-truth, is the thing that matters. Perhaps you plebians can go back to whatever homeschool spewed you out to learn about such things.

BTW nice email has been sent to your Editor in Chief. I'd start looking for a new job if I were you broom-pusher.

Comment by Calton — February 14, 2008 @ 12:39PM

”

Talk about name calling galore! And what did you mean by "Our truth, the Wiki-truth"? That sounds kinda scary as if you know it's not the REAL truth, but your OWN truth that you have the ability to manipulate. Why would you boast of having "ownership" of the truth in the comments section of an article that accuses you of just that? Way to make Wikipedia look even better in the public's eyes! Bizarre! BillyTFried (talk) 21:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow this is one of the most creepy cases of ciber and real stalking that I have seen, what is keeping us from indef blocking the user trying to "out" another user's annonimity? - Caribbean~H.Q. 22:03, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I doubt the account will be used ever again. BillyTFried (talk) 22:13, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

She did post this awkward message today [2] so how can't we guarantee that she won't continue stalking? - Caribbean~H.Q. 22:25, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the question in my mind is whether we should block BillyTFried for harassment. He's been edit warring at User talk:Griot--[3] [4] are recent diffs; he continues to post to this thread when it would be much better for him to lay off; his user talk page is essentially an attack page against Griot; and there's this super-creepy thread on User talk:Marynega (that's the journalist who wrote the hit piece in SF Weekly) that I've having a difficult time interpreting as anything other than a "joking" threat of violence. I don't see why we should allow this behavior. --Akhilleus (talk) 00:42, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

That's a novel idea. Blame the victim. I've never heard of that before. Are you part of the Griot/Calton alliance as well?. Anyone that wants the whole story can just go to Griot's talk page history for the truth: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Griot&action=history Also, I like how you refer my REVERTS back to the original conversation as it happened months ago as "Recent Diffs" and try to make them seem as if they were new and were justification for blocking me. Jeez! My "attack" of a user page is simply the original unedited conversation as it original occurred months ago that I am asking be restore. The closest thing to harassment I've done is probably my response to his "Letter to the editor" this morning, defending his actions and blaming the article's author for his being banned: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Griot&diff=190675197&oldid=190673998 BillyTFried (talk) 01:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

A number of people have been victimized in one way or another in this series of events. Please stand in line over there to join the crowd... Although at least my appearance in the article was fairly positive.

I think a lot of people think that your response to that, and your interactions with Griot, have gone beyond the bounds of civil discourse and Wikipedia policy into counter-harrassment. And our policy is that two wrongs equals two warned users, or two blocks. If you break policy or abuse people here in response to legitimate or perceived baiting or abuse by them, you're still breaking policy and will still be held accountable.

Please tone it down some. Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 09:10, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Article in San Francisco Weekly (II)

But seriously, folks, it was just a fine article. Very interesting and informative. Nicely edited, too. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 06:44, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

And a very creative way to post libelous material in name of a banned user... - Caribbean~H.Q. 07:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

So, George, you've forgotten that if you want to pull off the disinterested innocent bystander act, it helps if you say something even remotely believable, otherwise you blow the gaff. So, are you another of Jeannie Marie's relatives here to do her dirty work for her now that her dozen or so sockpuppets have been blocked? --Calton | Talk 13:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Accusing a fellow editor of trying to pull off an act of some sort doesn't seem very civil to me. Do you have any evidence to back up that claim or is it just another in your ever growing pile of false accusations dished out to anyone who does not agree with you? BillyTFried (talk) 19:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

We have a person whose sister is a checkuser-confirmed sock, and her mates accusing Griot of sockpuppetry. It's beginning to look to me like a well-planned, long-running case of harassment on and off wiki, and when someone fights back inappropriately, an attempt to hang them for it. To GeorgeLouis's defence I would note he has been a continuous and fairly hard working editor for almost as long as I have been, although I am genuinely curious as to his role/involvement in the situation. Orderinchaos 16:46, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Minor point: Griot is guilty of [sockpuppetry. Pardon this no doubt novel insertion of a fact into this discussion. On a side note, is anybody on this board in an admin position ever going to say something to Calton about the endless number of accusations, including false ones, and mean spirited diatribes he levels against other editors? Does he have incriminating tapes of you all, like J Edgar Hoover? Boodlesthecat (talk) 17:01, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Its not a matter of ACCUSING Griot of sock puppetry because he has been CONFIRMED to have been doing it fervently for a long time. That seems to be a meaningless footnote to you. Do you feel he was innocent and was unjustly banned? Obviously he does! And nobody involved in this discussion is my "mate". Again another false accusation from you. I have not had any correspondence with anyone here prior to this event, unlike you and Griot, Calton. BillyTFried (talk) 19:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Signature

• Jeffmichaud (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Jeffmichaud for a long time has used the signature "Jeff", but changed it on Jan 14 to "Baha'i Under the Covenant".[5] The policy on User names says to avoid names that are offensive or promotional. WP:sig suggests for users to politely request others to change their signature. If there is consensus that the policy of avoiding 'offensive, confusing, or promotional' user names equally applies to signature, then I also suggest updating WP:sig.

I politely requested on Jan 24 for him to change the signature,[6] and after no response I warned him again on Feb 8,[7]. The first request was immediately archived,[8] and the second request was immediately deleted outright from his talk page.[9]

For more details on why this is both offensive and promotional, glance over Baha'i divisions. The Baha'i religion has teachings on the succession of authority, and anyone creating divisions are considered dangerous and shunned, labeled "Covenant-breaker". The implication is that there is a Covenant in the religion to provide unity, and anyone who breaks away is not under the Covenant. Jeffmichaud belongs to one such group with a handful of followers who call themselves the "Baha'is Under the Provisions of the Covenant". Changing his signature in the middle of a debate over Baha'i content was his way of promoting his ideological claim in the face of other editors. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 01:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh good grief! What kind of belief or faith is it that cannot withstand critical comment even from within itself? And when it comes down to mere words, whatever their implications, I'd suggest that any belief system should be self-confident and self-consistent in itself to be able to ignore mere words. That words are found offensive doesn't help in the slightest. Throughout history, words have been labelled as offensive, mostly because they represent a difference from orthodoxy; but in the context of an analytical, independently-minded and intellectually balanced source of information, rather than of opinion, taking offence at mere words is jejune, intellectually barren, and time-wasting. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 04:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Addendum: Please feel free to cite any authority whatsoever, religious, legal or otherwise, that supports a right not to be offended. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 04:44, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

That is completely not the point. We have a Wikipedia policy that says not to use offensive user names, and a guideline that says it equally applies to signatures. Your response is attacking the policy and saying that nobody should be offended by anything. That's nonsense and a total disregard for the official policy that "all users should follow". Cuñado ☼ - Talk 07:07, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I apologise, but I personally am offended by any user name containing the letter "c". Therefore, they should all be banned. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 11:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Once again, completely not the point, and an illogical disregard for WP policy. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 15:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Stop shaking the straw man, please. Or is that Reductio ad absurdum? hbdragon88 (talk) 19:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Forgive my stupidity, but exactly how is the signature offensive or promotional? —Kurykh 07:10, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I can't see it either; sounds like the debate we had over User:Rama's Arrow a few months ago. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 12:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm.. neither can I. Has the subject since changed it? Rudget. 14:08, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

This is a big part of why I don't edit Baha'i articles anymore. :\ JuJube (talk) 14:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe I should make something clear: I don't think it's offensive that he has certain beliefs and edits wikipedia, but he changed his signature to something that implies divine right. It would be like a user name of "I'm in God's favor and you're not". There is no need to use controversial user names/signatures and I politely requested for him to change it, and I politely requested for an administrator to enforce policy and ask him to change it to something less controversial. And no he hasn't changed it yet. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 15:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll take a deeper look, and ask him to change it based on that reason. I don't see anything unreasonable in asking the subject to change to something that would at least reflect his username. Rudget. 15:38, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Personally, if someone changed their sig to "I'm in God's favor and you're not", my reaction would be less "offended" and more "hilarity". Even assuming the worst possible faith--that the person is TRYING to honk off the other believers--changing a sig to something self-aggrandizing says less about the truth of his/her beliefs as it says about their response to disagreement. Just my opinion, though, and no offense intended to anyone. Gladys J Cortez 06:57, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Gladys. It is funny. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 07:12, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Hey, is someone here talking about me behind my back? Kidding. Rudget, I will respectfully decline your request to change anything if, as seems clear from the discussion that transpired, I'm not in violation of any policies nor am I being "required". I don't believe I've violated any policy, but rather am being "asked" to change it to appease Cunado's will on the matter? After closer look at the actual policies on the matter it is obvious that Cunado is taking generous liberties at interpreting them in his own unique way for reasons not exactly obvious to me or anyone else. I appreciate your sentiments to avoid controversy, Rudget, but if it is offensive to Cunado I can only be envious that his life is so blessed to have nothing of greater concern to worry about. Baha'i Under the Covenant (talk) 07:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

WP:Username policy is a policy that "all users should follow", and "a user who acts against the spirit of them may be reprimanded, even if technically no rule has been violated." The policy states that inappropriate user names are ones that are misleading, promotional, offensive, or disruptive, and "these criteria apply to both usernames and signatures." I already explained why the signature is controversial. I was once blocked for not following WP:sig, which is a guideline and not even a policy, see this conversation. Someone please enforce policy. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 17:50, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I am inclined to view this as not offensive. It is one thing to say "My group is great" and another to say "Your group isn't", so we have lots of users with pro- type names, whether it be sports, nationality, activity, whatever, which seem compliant with the policy; while anti- type names aren't. Quite a difference between User:Boston Red Sox lover and User:New York Yankees hater in my mind. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 00:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, would you find a signature such as "Jesus, the true lord and savior" to be offensive? It's proselytism, regardless of the religion involved. We have some Yankees and Red Sox fans who have a fervent devotion to their teams, but it's not the same thing. If the signature would be blocked as a user name, it shouldn't be acceptable as a signature either. Horologium (talk) 01:04, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Horologium, your example is in fact proselytism, but I'm not proselytizing per se. I'm identifying myself here, and not promoting/proselytising anything. BTW, it hasn't been blocked as a user name. Would it be? I've considered creating it as one. Would it be a problem? Baha'i Under the Covenant 08:48, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I brought it up on Wikipedia:Usernames for administrator attention, but it was not considered because the actually user name is not the issue. The spirit of the policy is that user names and signatures should be used for identification and should avoid anything controversial. Religion and politics are the most controversial subjects, so it should be a no-brainer to say that it's inappropriate to boldly promote a religious view in a user name or sig. Even a name like "Jesus is for me" might seem harmless, but there is no reason to stir the pot on something that should be free of controversial subjects. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 16:03, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Generally, the signature is intended to be a means of discerning who has placed certain comments. By changing it to something that obscures your username (no where in "Baha'i Under the Covenant" does it tell me who that is), is not within policy. The only problem I see is that there is no reference to "Jeff" or "Jeffmichaud" in your signature. Surely, it would be better to use something that includes the phrase you want, but also includes your actual username in some form.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 08:54, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

While I agree, WP:sig is a guideline, and it says "While not an absolute requirement, it is common practice for a signature to resemble to some degree the username it represents." So we're back to offering Jeffmichaud unenforceable advice. The issue is about enforcing the policy about a controversial signature. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 16:03, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I've also seen that he has not responded to my comment either here or his talk page. I'm really not sure, as an administrator, what should be done here.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 23:55, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Ryulong, you didn't request comment "here or on my talk page". There were no questions in your message. I understand your concern now, and it makes perfect sense, so I've taken your suggestions and made the appropriate changes. I didn't think further comment was needed. _{Baha'i Under the Covenant}^Jeff 05:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Admittedly I know essentially nothing about the religion in question, so I can't say for myself whether this signature in and of itself is contentious. But what strikes me as a potential bad faith is the way this came about -- from a content dispute regarding the religion in question.

I'm of the opinion -- and this is an opinion I came to by taking my lumps first -- that anything potentially divisive should be left off the wiki ... this is why I changed my username from something contentious to something just plain silly. The difficulty here is that not all people hold this view. Jeff obviously doesn't, and it would seem, from a policy point of view, that he's entitled to not hold it.

Is Jeff doing something whereby we can make him change his signature? Probably not. But in the spirit of good cooperation he should consider changing it as a measure of good faith. However, Jeff's comments here, such as these:

I will respectfully decline your request to change anything if, as seems clear from the discussion that transpired, I'm not in violation of any policies nor am I being "required".

I appreciate your sentiments to avoid controversy, Rudget, but if it is offensive to Cunado I can only be envious that his life is so blessed to have nothing of greater concern to worry about.

Horologium, your example is in fact proselytism, but I'm not proselytizing per se. (emphasis mine)

Ryulong, you didn't request comment "here or on my talk page". There were no questions in your message. [...] I didn't think further comment was needed.

do not indicate an overwhelming amount of dedication to the cooperative spirit. Sorry to assume mediocre faith here, but I'm not thrilled with the spirit of these responses. - Revolving Bugbear 20:48, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Revolving, how strange that you'd decide to cut and paste around the comments which are absolutely agreeable and polite, and display my comments in such a unfavorable way? Why leave out "I understand your concern now, and it makes perfect sense, so I've taken your suggestions and made the appropriate changes."?

I wasn't even notified about this directly, but was sideswiped, so-to-speak, by an email from Rudget (which was very polite and agreeable), so I came into the conversation after two days of discussion had transpired. I didn't change this, as Cunado implied, on the 14th in the middle of a discussion, but on the 12th basically on a whim. I don't feel compelled in any way to bend to Cunado's will as I believe his concerns are unfounded and a bit overly dramatic; but that doesn't automatically mean my actions here are in bad faith? Cunado's stated concern was this violated policy by being "promotional and controvertial", and I disagree. That is within my rights as far as I'm aware. Being made aware of Ryulong's concerns shed a new light on the matter, and I immediately made the changes he requested. If that is all then I'll thank you all for your help in the matter, and if there's anything I can be of further assistance for please notify me directly as I won't be keeping abreast of any further evolution of this discussion. Cheers. _{Baha'i Under the Covenant}^Jeff 22:59, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

You were definitely not "sideswiped". I asked you twice to change it and told you that I would follow up on the Admin notice board.[10] Cuñado ☼ - Talk 01:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Negated fallacy of division -- just because not all of your comments are lacking a spirit of cooperation does not mean that all of your comments are not lacking a spirit of cooperation.

Given the number of people who have approached you in the last week or so (3) vs. the number of them you have directly responded to (0) and your long-standing message that you don't want people to comment on your talk page about anything substantive, I think that a little more effort to reach out to the community would be very helpful in this situation. - Revolving Bugbear 19:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Change to user name policy

I can sympathize with admins not wanting to make a value-based judgment on what might be offensive in a religion, but this requires such a judgment. Would it be appropriate to update the user name policy to avoid showing religious or political affiliation? That seems to be in the spirit of what to avoid, and would differentiate this from the User:Boston Red Sox lover example mentioned above. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 01:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Well the best place to do that would be at WP:U where there is ongoing discussion regarding these types of things. As a matter of fact, the issue of religious or political references has surfaced. I ask you though, do you honestly propose that usernames that make allusions to a religious figure should result in a block? Remember WP:CENSORED. Wisdom89 _{(T / ^C)} 04:30, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

There is a big difference between censoring in an article and avoiding controversial subjects in a user name. We already have a policy of not using promotional or offensive user names, and it is supposed to be enforced by a block, but right now it's not specific enough to include religion and politics, which to me seem obvious. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 05:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, at one time it was specific enough to include (and this is more of a intuitive assessment of the name now) an inflammatory or offensive POV - If the username were to specifically disparage a religious icon or political figure, that would be one thing. However, there is an enormous difference between this and simply mentioning a symbol of your faith or ideology. Would you insist that IlikeAynRand to be a blatant violation of policy? Wisdom89 _{(T / ^C)} 05:59, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Just bear in mind that there is much ongoing controversy over the username policy, not all administrators can come to an agreement, and in its current form there is nothing that would suggest the username you put forth is overtly offensive. The bottom line is this: virtually any username could potentially insult, aggravate, annoy or inflame somebody based on a personal point of view. This doesn't mean they should be reported to WP:UAA though. Wisdom89 _{(T / ^C)} 07:26, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Edito*Magica

Just my day for ANIs I guess. User:Edito*Magica was brought to my attention by another editor, User:UpDown who knows I am well versed in creating episode lists and requested my assistance on List of Keeping Up Appearances episodes. Edito*MagicaJ kept changing for format of the list to one that removes the lead, and does not follow proper episode list format, going against the consensus for proper episode list formatting. (see good version versus his version). I reverted his edits, and tried to explain to him why his edits are incorrect. He refuses to listen, however, and appears to feel that he knows better than the main Wikipedia MOS, the TV project, and existing consensus and standards for episode lists (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Collectonian&diff=next&oldid=190484465 talk page discussions). UpDown also tried talking to him. I warned him that if continued his attempts to mess up the list, his edits would be considered vandalism, but he continues to revert, now calling the undoing of his edits to be acts of "sneaky vandalism." (his talk page with warnings that he has since blanked)

He is also removing content from various articles under the claim that information shouldn't be repeated in an article (examples: [11], [12]), despite it being appropriate information and my explaining to him that information can and should appear both in the lead and within the article proper.

At this point, its down to just undoing everything he is doing in these areas, and I'm hoping perhaps he will be more willing to listen to an admin since he is completely discounting the comments of other editors. I'm not entirely sure his edits are fully vandalism, but they are becoming very disruptive. Collectonian (talk) 23:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

As an update, he is now leaving false warnings on the pages of those undoing his actions [13], and is selectively canvassing relatively new, inexperienced editors to try to get them to agree with him [14] in an attempt to "form a new consensus" [15]. He is also continuing to edit war over his changes, blanking out content of infoboxes [16] or outright reverting the undos of his bad formatting and calling it vandalism [17]. He is showing that he has absolutely no desire to actual improve or work with the community, and is ignoring more notes from experienced editors telling him that his format idea is wrong. Collectonian (talk) 01:16, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Collectonian (talk) 06:43, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, the reason why I persist in making the alterations on the Keeping Up Appearances episode page is to improve it for other users. I have the good of the community in mind and for that reason I want to help improve Wikipedia. Secondly, it is true I contacted two other users for a second opinion, both are not inexperienced and both agree with my minor adjustments to the layout. Collectonian does not like the fact that other users agree with me, and to report me for making changes he does not agree with is folly. It is he who is reverting constructive alterations that I have made, which still follow the Wikipedia policy on the “lead”, which isn’t even compulsory to follow anyway. I will stand up to the likes of Collectonian; if he can get people banned for undoing his edits and get them banned for making improvements, then how unjust the Wiki system actually is. I would report him, but i don't thing it is a constructive method in solving deputes. Edito*Magica (talk) 11:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Have either of you considered stopping the accusations of vandalism and trying to follow dispute resolution? Someguy1221 (talk) 11:21, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Good faith or not, the policies have been show to EditoMagica, who ignores them. That is vandalism whether he thinks he's improving the pages or not. --UpDown (talk) 14:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I AGFed at first, and tried to explain in detail why his edits were wrong, but EditoMagica has made it clear that he doesn't care. He removes content from articles because he thinks it shouldn't be "repeated" in the infobox (despite being told the infobox is a summary, not a standalone) and he is refactoring episode lists articles to remove the lead in favor of another section of lists of statistics, despite again being told that it violates the MOS, the lead, and the consensus for episode list formatting. He is now taking these edits to other episode lists[18][19][20] and of course he is continuing on the KUA list[21]. He also completely blanked the talk page of Keeping Up Appearances[22] despite his edit history showing he knows very well how to properly edit a talk page. Its hard to AGF when he has already said very plainly that he doesn't care about Wikipedia policies or guidelines and instead is calling the clean up of his mess "sneaky vandalism" and making other accusations against the editors keeping him from ruining the articles (such as the one he left on your talk page which is obviously not a good faith remark). He's been told numerous times this isn't just the opinion of UpDown and myself (who normally, by the way, tend to disagree), but of the entire Television project, Anime project, and BBC project, all of which deal with television episode lists, and of the FL process, which EditoMagica would realize if he would actually look at the MOS and featured episode lists as was suggested. This was brought here because he will NOT listen to other editors, hence the need for admin intervention as his edits are very disruptive. His claims of support are from one or two other editors who are also as inexperienced as he is, and he continues to claim this support of two trumps to consensus of the hundreds of members of those projects and of Wikipedia guidelines as a whole. He is also blatantly ignoring two other editors telling him he is wrong. Despite his accusations, I'm not asking for him to be banned, but corrected and only blocked if he continues to be disruptive. Collectonian (talk) 15:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

This really is getting out of hand now; EditoMagica is being hugely disruptive and seems to think that his way of writing an episode list is the best way, and the fact one or two editors apparently back him up he thinks means he has "popular support". These things are backed up policy, guidelines and by looking at relevant FA. All these go against EditoMagica but he ignores this. In addition, he fails to understand that what is in the infobox is always repeated in the article proper (like the LEAD). If he won't listen to advise and guidelines he will need to be blocked for the sake of Wikipedia.--UpDown (talk) 14:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

And he continues leaving fake warnings on people's use pages[23] and again trying to mess up the KUA episode article[24]. I really wish an admin would look at this. Edito*Magica is trying to harass other users to get his way, insulting other editors, and being disruptive. He is not going to listen to warnings from "regular" editors as he thinks he knows better than all of us, and his actions will only discourage people from working on those articles to give them the final polish they need to be potential FL candidates. Collectonian (talk) 15:21, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

So today, List of Keeping Up Appearances episodes was given a much needed update/clean up to bring it into line with the established format for episode lists. User:Edito*Magica reverted it then again put back in the version he prefers that he has already been told is not appropriate. He is also trying to get other users to come attack me [25] Collectonian (talk) 01:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Create an RfC and if that fails to generate a resolution move on down WP:DR. However I note he's already making personal attacks--Crossmr (talk) 02:20, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Can an RfC cross multiple articles though? While he's concentrating on the KUA episode list at the moment, he's been trying with others as well. Collectonian (talk) 03:24, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes because you're requesting comment on a certain formatting style.--Crossmr (talk) 14:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The thing is, the formatting style is already established. Edito*Magica is the one going against established consensus, and continuously attacking people in the process (mostly me, when I wasn't even the one who started the issue). *sigh* Collectonian (talk) 14:59, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Firstly it is Collectonian that is being abusive, calling me and others “inexperienced” and “trumps”. I have not said one bad word about her, only referring to the user as a “nightmare”. Secondly there is no consensus for altering an entire tabular layout on the K.U.A episode page, Collectonian changed the page drastically without discussion on the talk page or considering any other user than herself. The previous table layout of Keeping Up Appearances, which Collectonian changed, had been established after consensus and disputes that had been resolved.

Furthermore, my edits are following the rules of the “lead” and other sections of the manual of style, which is not even compulsory to follow, but I do so anyway. I will persist in reverting Collectonian’s edits until she sees sense. Edito*Magica (talk) 21:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Calling someone inexperienced is not abusive, its a fact. Please provide evidence that I called you or anyone else "trumps." You have said a lot of bad words about me, insulting me on multiple user talk pages and in your edit summaries, and who continues to do things you've been warned by no less than FOUR editors not to do. The KUA episode page was changed to bring it line with the MOS, the biggest consensus there is. You are the one who has decided that you know better than three different large projects on Wikipedia and the general Wikipedia MOS. Manuals of styles are not compulsory to follow to the letter, however articles that completely disregard them will never reach good or featured status (or in the case of lists, featured list). Thank you, though, for illustrating why I didn't bother with an RfC or the like. If you won't listen the whole projects, why would you listen to an RfC or anything else. You have stated very plainly you will continue to be a disruptive editor and have no intention of actually working to improve the encyclopedia within its definition of improve, but only based on your own agenda. Collectonian (talk) 00:05, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Just for completenesses sake can you provide links to all the discussions from the projects where they decided on style? Thanks.--Crossmr (talk) 15:06, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The consensus is reflected in the featured episode lists and in peer reviews of episode lists. For examples from current FLs: List of Meerkat Manor episodes, List of Trinity Blood episodes, List of Smallville episodes, List of Blue Drop: Tenshitachi no Gikyoku episodes, List of Carnivàle episodes, etc etc. For the TV project, users are directed to those and encouraged to use the episode list template here, the talk page of which also includes a discussion on the standard format that has now been implemented at KUA. BBC uses the same standard, with appropriate British English in place of American. Anime and Manga project also uses a similar standard, as is seen in the FLs. Collectonian (talk) 15:38, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Another attack, in the form of a retalitory ANI filing[26] without OUT the courtesy notice to tell me he filed it and making false accusations about me attacking other users and without mentioning any of the earlier stuff before I got involved when he edit warred with other editors over this and I came in as a project representative to try to stop it. Collectonian (talk) 00:15, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Edito*Magica is continuing his crusade, now creating a whole new List of Goodnight Sweetheart Episodes. I quickly fixed it up and put it in the proper format, but I suspect he will only start another edit war there as well. He continues to ignore numerous other editors telling him he is wrong and continues so sling insults at editors he disagrees with. Collectonian (talk) 23:25, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

As expected, he is now violently edit warring over this second list and has now violated 3RR. Collectonian (talk) 00:51, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I’m not quite sure who these numerous editors who I am ignoring are, I suspect they are products of Collectonian’s imagination. As for the editors I have spoken to, well I have taken on board what they have said, regarding the “lead” on the Keeping Up Appearances Episode Page and decided it was better in paragraphs; that is hardly ignoring other editors. Secondly, I have not attacked any editor, in fact it is Collectonian who called me and another user: “inexperienced” and “trumps”, if anyone is being attacking it is Collectonian. Furthermore, Collectonian is also violently edit warring and has also broken the 3RR by constantly reverting the improvements I am TRYING to make. Edito*Magica (talk) 01:09, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

You've again made an accusation without providing evidence while others have already warned you for your personal attacks. You have also now blatantly ignored an administrator who warned you NOT to revert the List of Goodnight Sweetheart episodes again. Collectonian (talk) 02:18, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

To all admins closing AfDs created on 10 Feb and 11 Feb

If you are closing an AfD which was created on 10 February or 11 February, you will see a "(delete)" link. Please do not click on it! Due to my egregrous screw-up it will delete the AfD page or whatever page you viewed the AfD from. I have just fixed the mistake (passed wrong parameter to the delete link). AfDs created on 12 February onwards will not have this problem. Pegasus «C¦T» 01:23, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Would this be all AfDs for 11 Feb, or just the ones in the first hour or so before the error was caught (per your timestamp above)? Thanks for the heads up. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 13:43, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, those AfDs created after the timestamp of my previous comment will be okay (I fixed the template a few minutes before that.) But I'm mentioning dates only, to be on the safe side. Pegasus «C¦T» 17:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Fake timestamp for bot: Pegasus «C¦T» 17:50, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Zenwhat blocked again

I've blocked Zenwhat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for continued trolling after Jimbo explicitly asked him to stop. He continued here and was reverted by User:Crum375. As a result, I've blocked him for a week. Since this editor's conduct is currently being discussed in an above section that may be archived soon, I have started a new section for further discussion. Nakon 05:47, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

This is the first of this user's blocks that I actually endorse. Which is a shame, since I think that were it not for the previous ill-advised blocks, he might never have stooped to the level of deserving blocks. But he's responsible for his own conduct, and today his conduct hasn't been good. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 05:49, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, this is exactly the kind of behavior I have come to expect from Zenwhat. He has been posting tripe like this at the Village Pump for some time, and its been getting tiresome. This is not new behavior since the last blocking above, and I do not expect this to stop when the block expires. I would really love Zenwhat to prove me wrong, but his past behavior has not led me to believe that that will happen. I endorse this block, and pray that he returns from it with a better attitude. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:54, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I've gotta endorse Nakon's actions. When Jimbo says "stop trolling" you stop trolling. A week (as opposed to a longer, perma block/ban) is being generous. MBisanz ^talk 05:55, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not being snarky, but if all he wants to do is discuss meta issues, perhaps someone should point him to an offsite area to do this, like the mailing list, forums, blogs, or whatever. I'm just saying the guy really likes talking about Wikipedia, maybe he can blow off steam elsewhere. daveh4h 08:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

If he put that energy into article editing-- wow. I think he has problems not necessarily related to Wikipedia, and that he should better spend his energy elsewhere. The one week block is fine for the sake of reducing the disruption level. I don't foresee any change in his editing patterns after the block expires. Dlohcierekim Deleted? 08:39, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Dave, he seems to have done just that and moved some of his efforts to Meta (m:Special:Contributions/Zenwhat), but aside from some possibly license-breaking copy-and-paste moves, his contributions there seem to be on the up-and-up. --jonny-mt 08:44, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, I cannot bring myself to see his posts as anything else than a bit distressed and eccentric, but also rather interesting meta comment. That someone who adores Ayn Rand has considerable difficulties sharing that perspective doesn't come as a big surprise. User:Dorftrottel 10:55, February 12, 2008

If I were a meta admin, I'd probably be inclined to do something about [27]. --B (talk) 13:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Dorftrottel, for the most part. My only concern is that repeatedly banning this user will make him back come more outrageous than the last time and eventually turn him against the project entirely. Some may say that he is already against the project-but I disagree. If he were, he wouldn't spend so much time commenting on it. That said, I don't see any of this ending well, unfortunately. :-( If he is doing this for attention, then the offsite alternatives like meta, mailing lists, and message boards won't provide him enough. I find it easy enough to avoid his commentary if I find it annoying. Violating the sanctity of Jimbo's talk page seems to be the latest offense. If he said it elsewhere it probably would have gone unnoticed. This user either has other problems or he just hasn't understood the subtleties of how to interact here yet, which is something to consider. I still think he should be encouraged to read and interact at other meta sites, maybe he can find something positive to do. daveh4h 17:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Fully agree, particularly with the word encourage. That's the key, imo. Discouraging him is definitely counterproductive. Maybe his energies can be gently directed into more appropriate channels, so why not give it a shot instead of jumping the gun on him (npi)? User:Dorftrottel 17:50, February 12, 2008

Much as I apperciate Jimbo, "the sanctity of his Talk page" seems a bit excessive. Regardless, I do think Zenwhat is a tragic case of what happens when a Wikipedian is brought low by what we call Wikistress, and a downward spiral of incivility between editors. -- RoninBK _{T C} 18:13, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Move?

I've seen a lot of discussions come up about Zenwhat in the past few days. To keep all discussions centralized and in one place, I think it would make sense to have discussions located at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/User:Zenwhat. Opinions (note, I will move this discussion if users below agree). Regards, D.M.N. (talk) 15:11, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I think that is a good idea. daveh4h 17:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I doubt it will be necessary, especially with the most recent block. - auburnpilot talk 21:08, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I do not think this is a good idea. (In general, I dislike moving discussions to sub pages, as the discussion is then fractured and the audience narrowed.) --Iamunknown 21:22, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree, I can only think of one other instance where it was done, and in that case there were issues with th user inquestion being able to edit pages >32K and extreme formatting difficulties. MBisanz ^talk 21:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Talk page protected

Per a request at WP:RFPP, I fully protected User talk:Zenwhat and reverted it. As you can see here, Zenwhat was continuing on the same sort of trolling that got him blocked in the first place. Just a long monologue about who-knows-what - conspiracies against him, etc. No discussion about wanting to be unblocked, no discussion about anything related to writing an encyclopedia, etc. Just a blog. Sorry, but to me, a week-long block is a week-long block. It doesn't mean a week of blogging. He can go about blogging when it expires.

Not particularly surprising, I've been called out on it so here I am for community review. If consensus here is to unprotect and let Zenwhat continue his blogging and pondering now instead of a week from now, then I welcome someone to unprotect it. —Wknight94 (talk) 22:11, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Good block, good protection. Wikipedia isn't a place for conspiracy-theory soapboxing. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:19, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Endorse. He was blocked, in part, for disseminating these pointless dull ramblings. Providing airtime for him to continue to use our bandwidth to witter on is pointless. Extended-RBI correctly employed. ➔ REDVEЯS has changed his plea to guilty 22:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I won't act against consensus, but I see the talk page protection as pointless. Ranting privately on his talk page seems harmless, and protecting pages like that is what gives complainers fodder. Do we wish to make Zenwhat into a hero for WR and the like? -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Creating an account to do nothing but chat with your friends is even more harmless - but try it and see how fast you're permablocked (after you're caught anyway). WP:NOT#MYSPACE. In this case, he was ranting about particular users conspiring against him - mentioning them by name - all while already blocked. He should thank me for protecting him from himself while he cools off for a week. As far as making him a hero for WR, sorry but I couldn't possibly care less. —Wknight94 (talk) 22:35, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Not caring what WR says is a healthy attitude, sure. I just think it's foolish to encourage people's unwarranted feelings of persecution, and that's what a protection like this does. If he wants to think that we wish to "silence" him, we're now encouraging that. I think it's better to just let him go off on his talk page (it's not as if he's got any credibility). Like I said though, I won't act against consensus. I just think we could handle such a situation better. -GTBacchus^(talk) 21:44, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't consider Zenwhat's comments on his talk page to be trolling (posting rambling comments to one's own talk page - which people can readily unwatchlist and ignore - hardly seems to qualify as deliberate attempts at disruption) and I don't think his use of his talk page was particularly abusive (as mentioned in the protection log). I would support unprotecting his talk page. --Iamunknown 22:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

So would I. Not my call though. User:Dorftrottel 23:07, February 12, 2008

Protecting the talk-page (it is only for a week) is a good call. Otherwise ZW can continue to post rubbish as has been happening for weeks, and this rubbish includes attacking insulting, misrepresenting, other users egregiously,(to no purpose whatsoever, except to gain attention). If I have to watch the page, to see myself slanderered, I would have to revert such rubbish off the page. I think I have the right to repair such damage on a WPpage put up by a blocked User. Why should I or others be forced to such troubles by a nuisance editor, and then run the risk of being blocked oneself? Wish I didn't have to say this, but Do not feed the trolls applies, as ZW has said so themself. ZW may in time learn to contribute without all the aggro and self-importance, (in time, but not at this time, so its preventative, not punitive.) Newbyguesses - Talk 00:44, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I dunno. First of all, you don't have to watch the page. Several others of us are on it. Second, if I see myself being "slandered" there, I would consider it my job to either ignore it or to politely correct any inaccuracies, per dispute resolution. I don't know why you think you would run the risk of being blocked yourself. Edit warring with anyone over their own talk page is the height of folly, when there are literally hundreds of people standing around who would be happy to revert it for you. If you truly know how not to feed trolls, then you can simply ignore them, without having to protect their talk page, and justify their paranoia in their own minds. -GTBacchus^(talk) 21:38, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Let him use his talk page for ranting. If he insults or attacks other editors (not Wikipedia in general - railing against Wikipedia in general is fine), we can extend his block. If he doesn't, then there's no problem. Neıl ☎ 09:30, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm with Neil on this one. If he was abusing unblock templates I'd think differently, but if he's just ranting and it's hurting nobody, let him. Orderinchaos 15:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I would tend to agree, but (and I understand this isn't policy, but a guideline) isn't personal opinion and ranting about conspiracy ad nauseum a breach of WP:TALK? I mean, it's almost literally the first line in the heading for proper use of a talk page. If he/she slanders, makes threats (physical or legal) etc.., then it is completely unacceptable. It may result in a block. However, what is the overall consensus regarding disruptive talk page usage as displayed here? Wisdom89 _{(T / ^C)} 07:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

ZW is editing, but the protected page says "Retired"

I am mystified as to how ZW can make this edit, whilst "retired", and under discussion at AN/I for the (third time). Newbyguesses - Talk 19:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

That edit is almost a week old: February 7. —Wknight94 (talk) 19:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

ZW is blocked until the 19th. Addhoc (talk) 19:04, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I misread the edit history at WP:IAR. The edit which confused me was [28] and it is not done by User:Zenwhat at all. It is done by 18:02, 13 February 2008 192.235.8.2 (Talk). Newbyguesses - Talk 19:11, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Socking?

ZW, and blocked User Karmaisking. (Separate AN/I thread below}See ...You and I both know the game. People want us to shut up. They threaten. They harrass. They hate the truth. Why do we keep going? I don't have the patience, or the time. I welcome and encourage you, a like-minded fellow traveller on this dangerous journey of life, to got into my talk page history and check out the old correspondence...User:Karmaisking 11:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC) This sounds a little familiar to me, though it is very slim as evidence goes. See also here and similar questions in ZW's previous threads at AN/I. (I hope I am not coming across as obsessing over these matters, but merely trying to discover the evidence - perhaps there is no black and white, and it all belongs in the grey zone;) Newbyguesses - Talk 12:48, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Pelasgians/Chaonians

Repeated tactics

[29] If they dont get it its not my fault.Megistias (talk) 16:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't understand the question - do you have a concern of some sort? D.M.N. (talk) 16:26, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

They refuse to interact and simply keep on reposting rejected material.Again on my ethnicity ,denying ,irony and ignore my postings and of any user or admin rejecting themMegistias (talk) 16:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Megistias is mixing up complaints against two different users: User:Dodona, who is indeed a disruptive editor and forever in danger of earning himself a renewed ban, and a new guy User:PelasgicMoon, who has so far not done anything outrageously disruptive by Balkanic standards. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:50, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

OK. In which case, can we have some diffs so that we can resolve, or try to resolve the problem. Regards, D.M.N. (talk) 16:53, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I am pretty frustrated.This is like deja vuMegistias (talk) 16:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Dodona is a loooooong story. I've been trying to guard him through a "second chance", that's the only reason I'm not just joining in with Megistias' cry for bans, but I have doubts if it's going anywhere. I somehow don't know where to start with the links :-( Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:04, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Still at it.[30]13:08, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Someone please remedie this situation in its entirety.Its all wasted time against people that have a dogma [31]Megistias (talk) 15:39, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Calling me a propagandist

talk, User:Taulant23 at the bottom of the talk says"his main propaganda agenda" referring to me.Megistias (talk) 09:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Not really the worst of personal attacks, if it even qualifies as one. What do you want done about it anyway?--Atlan (talk) 11:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

For him to stop doing it.Megistias (talk) 12:21, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Here's the diff. While it's borderline, comments like this are not helpful to the debate. I have left a note. — Satori Son 14:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

User PelasgicMoon is doing the sameMegistias (talk) 14:15, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Diffs please. — Satori Son 14:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Its at the bottom talkMegistias (talk) 14:22, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

User Dodona "that i am what i am called"[32]Megistias (talk) 15:32, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Okay, it's time to apply a few trouts here. Can somebody uninvolved please take over at Chaonians? (I've IAR'd and applied emergency shortterm protection for just two hours, but we need a taste of WP:ARBMAC I think.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:54, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I do apologize if I called you a Greek propagandist. But, it started with the Albanian page by putting maps after maps, showing North Epirus (southern Albania) as a Greek region.The maps and the article, sound it like a right-wing Greek nationalists favoring the long-term goal of unification of so-called North Epirus with Greece.If Megistias (talk) doeesn’t like something, he takes it off. or reverted. He deleted my sources (and other users too) and call all my authors pseudo historians (even if some are ancient Greek writers). I don't go on Greek articles and edit their page nor do I claim Greek land or their heroes. We Albanians have our own history (ancient and modern)! I do apologize again, and I am offering to work with you. However, please respect my people, our history and let’s edit in peace.--Taulant23 (talk) 07:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

My maps are source according to Wiki rules.Involved admins(all of them) approve of my actions and your slander here against me is even more encumbering in your case.Admins all call your sources pseudo historians.Admins at a great number and non Greek ones too.Megistias (talk) 08:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

So four different users are wrong when they complain about your acts? Since when all Admins(all of them) approve your actions? and my slander here against you? I did apologize, and offered to work with you. What else do you want? I was sincere of what I think of your actions in Wikipedia.I do believe you promote Greek propaganda.--Taulant23 (talk) 08:46, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Your actions and that of those users you speak of is rejected by All the admins involved.Since you believe that i am that thing you say i want swift justice and measures by admins on you.You should also know that here only the violation is disscused not its specifics how you put them because those are resolved by the admins in the given pages.Megistias (talk) 08:53, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Some things you did and carry on it seems.Also note that i use secondary sources according to Wiki rules whilist you do not.So that makes me corrrect in all thesis support.You realise what that makes you and your likely minded users.

• [33]
• [34]
• [35]
• [36]
• [37]
• [38]
• [39]
• [40]

Megistias (talk) 09:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

The fact that you carry on in here is even more unbelievable.Megistias (talk) 09:27, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Incident

[41]see talk page[42] admins-User wants an edit war and provokes to this effect ignoring secondary source and pretending he cant read.Most likely sockpuppet .Megistias (talk) 16:39, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

It seems to be a minor content dispute - I've suggested a compromise, hopefully this will solve things. I suppose both yourslef, Megistias, and the IP (who then created an account, Arditbido (talk · contribs)) could both be blocked for 9 reverts each, but Fut Perf's protection has just as easily calmed that down. Neıl ☎ 17:17, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

He doestn get it.He wants the edit warMegistias (talk) 17:41, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

That is not a new user for certain.I am tired .Megistias (talk) 17:49, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Note that I only protected for two hours as an emergency measure. I've been involved with various related conflicts, so I'd appreciate if somebody else took care of whatever sanctions are appropriate. WP:ARBMAC applies, if necessary. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:55, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Not a new user.[43]Megistias (talk) 17:57, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Look at what he is doing.I have answered a dozen times and provided myriad sources both secondary and primary and he just goes on.[44].Megistias (talk) 18:20, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

He is not a new user he even knows how to switch his name [45] into appearing as another "balkanian".You dont go from nymbered user to that in an hour!Megistias (talk) 19:24, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Hm, User:DragonflySixtyseven made a substantial edit to Chaonians and then protected the page. This seems like a no-no. I've asked him about it on his talk page, but he seems to be away from the computer at the moment. Anyway, I haven't investigated this situation fully yet, but it looks like we've got a handful of POV-pushing disruptive editors who are using a combination of dodgy sources and flat-out original research, with some possible sockpuppetry tossed in. --Akhilleus (talk) 21:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Can you guys impose some sanctions on the whole of the disruptive editors?They dont change or learn .Just do something.Megistias (talk) 08:50, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Listen guys we have wasted endless hours these past few months

with this team of disruptors and they dont change nor will they.They have clones they do they same thing again they ignore users,admins and rules and so on.Megistias (talk) 09:50, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

continual lack of good faith and WP:OWN displayed by one editor

I wish to report the behaviour of user User:Mathsci who continually has tried to discourage me from contributing and editing articles on French localities in a significant display of WP:OWN and particularly WP:OWN#EVENTS. This first started with accusations of being lazy and unconstructive [46] and being disruptive and having no "special knowledge of French or France" [47] and [48] then reverted a legitimate edit of mine [49] which I believe this was solely done as I did that edit. This developed into a personal attack as shown in the edit summary of [50] and still displaying WP:OWN in [51]. And then accused me of "not aiding the WP project" today at [52] At no point has this editor assumed good faith about my edits. I have tried to reason and warn about lacking good faith on numerous occasions to no avail [53], [54], and given warnings [55], [56]. Michellecrisp (talk) 02:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I have hardly edited recently [57] because I am busy giving a graduate course/preparing a book. I did buy an 800 page book on the history of Marseille (in French) on a recent brief trip back to France: I have used this a little to check historical details mentioned by other editors on the page of Marseille and have suggested using it as the source for a detailed article on the chronology of Marseille (a similar article already exists on the French WP). Michellecrisp appears to have followed me to Aix-en-Provence. I own neither of these pages but have them on my watchlist. Much local information (eg detailed local history) on both these places is only available in French. If dates are added which contradict the chronology in an authoritative and encyclopedic history they will be corrected using the reliable source. Michellecrisp seems to have gone on a tagging spree on information added mostly by other editors long ago and has not tried to source the information on her own (such as population estimates from INSEE). Often sourcing information is not hard to do with a knowledge of French: the official information is often only available in French. I have no idea why she has brought this to WP:AN/I. Her choice of the word "continual" is odd considering my recent wikibreak. Mathsci (talk) 23:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

My original comments stand. I am not questioning Mathsci's knowledge of French topics. but the violation of principles of assuming good faith and clear WP:OWN (I have given seven examples above of this which has occured over the past month) which has regrettably developed to personal attacks. It is against Wikipedia principles to discredit or put down other editors for lacking knowledge. Michellecrisp (talk) 23:44, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Your content dispute does not represent what happened on the actual pages, where you added faulty information (mistaking a TGV station for an SNCF station, quizzing the climate of Aix, dismissing the ancient monuments of Marseille, getting dates wrong). I have no idea why, without adding any significant content to either of these pages but merely tagging indiscriminately, you have seen fit to bring your grievances to WP:AN/I. You have not made any very clear arguments on the talk pages and most of your taggings that I have had time to look at are easy to justify. They mostly concern long standing additions by other editors. If you tag without discussion and add faulty information, is it not to be expected that somebody with access to detailed information will check the information and add sources? That does not constitute ownership of an article: it merely means that sources are being provided. Data from dubious websites that contradict acknowledged encyclopedic history books will be corrected in this process. This "dispute", of your own making, should never have been brought here. Your tagging was provocative: you seem now to be objecting when proper sources have been added to justify material of long standing by other editors. That seems unreasonable on your part. It seem odd that you have been tagging with no intention of checking the information for yourself, which cannot be so hard, even in Australia. I think you have misrepresented the recent editing history: you seem to be making a mountain out of a molehill. Mathsci (talk) 01:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

This is not a content dispute but an issue of user behaviour. My issues is here are your comments that you have directed to me that violate assume good faith and WP:OWN#EVENTS. ownership of article includes trying to discourage others from editing not necessarily "owning" in the literal sense. Please let this be reviewed by an administrator.Adding faulty information such as the SNCF edit was done in good faith. I have never deliberately added faulty information. Feel free to check the history of Marseille or Aix-en-Provence where I have found some references and tried to improve wording. I have brought this grievance here because after repeated warning you fail to assume good faith and have developed into personal attacks, and a deliberate campaign to dissuade me from editing articles. Michellecrisp (talk) 01:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

"a deliberate campaign to dissuade me from editing articles"? On the contrary you have chosen a very public place to misrepresent my WP edits. Bonne nuit. Mathsci (talk) 02:36, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

This is very clearly a content dispute. Please take follow the policy Wikipedia:Dispute resolution in resolving this issue. Your dispute does not belong here. If necessary, please request mediation. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Please clarify how this is a content dispute? I am reporting the issue of user behaviour, specifically WP:AGF and WP:OWN#EVENTS as evidenced in my diffs in the original post. This is not related to specific content. I am not disputing the content of any article mentioned, I am disputing the validity of editors asking other editors not to contribute to certain articles. One of the things Mathsci is questioning is my right to tag articles. Michellecrisp (talk) 05:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I have removed "content". You still need to work through dispute resolution to get this taken care of. That's what it's for. So far, I don't see anything that specifically needs an administrator to do anything. Any user can warn another for violating policy or guidelines. You are having a dispute with Mathsci, and the steps on WP:DR are there to help you work through the dispute. Please take advantage of that information and the steps found there. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 07:37, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I have said that I am on a wikibreak because I am otherwise occupied in real life. Michellecrisp is needlessly wikilawyering here because I have added "of note" after the word "fountains" in Aix-en-Provence to describe two particular fountains, picked out in the cited Guide Michelin for Provence. From her contributions here and on my talk page, she is simply trolling to make a highly ill-conceived point that appears at the bottom her user page. She is being highly disruptive. The presence of this inappropriate report suggests that she is set on harrassing me and does not properly understand how WP works. I unfortunately have no time at present to engage in interactions with Michellecrisp unrelated to actual content in WP articles. Thank goodness she has stayed away from mathematics articles. :) Mathsci (talk) 07:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Michellecrisp has added fresh citation tags to Marseille. She has inspired me to prepare a WP article on Pierre Corneille's play Médée when I return to France. Can someone please award her a barnstar? Mathsci (talk) 09:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone note the continual lack of good faith displayed by Mathsci towards me and less than subtle personal criticism in their above comments? Could an administrator please read my original post? I have attempted to warn the user in question of potential WP:AGF and WP:OWN#EVENTS violations and only came here because the user persisted with this behaviour to this point with no cessation as shown in the rather rude edit summary here [58]. I have made several warnings which I stepped up to higher levels (the next level being reporting here) but this behaviour towards me continued (as shown in the seven comments I have provided in diffs above). I would like to continue editing or tagging article I see fit without being rudely discouraged each time I edit an article. With the exception of Masalai I have never experienced this in the 20 months I've been on Wikipedia. An example as shown in my original post was Mathsci reverting one of my edits simply because it was me, I changed some text to conform to policy WP:LAYOUT and removed non-relevant links . [59] is not a content conflict but one based on one editor disliking me editing French geography articles. Where is the evidence of my disruptive behaviour? Tagging is not disruptive but as per WP:CITE and WP:PROVEIT Michellecrisp (talk) 10:29, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

There has been no revert war. One revert of your edits does not warrant the needless and inappropriate drama you have been creating here. You are behaving out of all proportion, apparently because you have been upset when some of your errors have been corrected. Please desist. Normally people with some knowledge of France or the French language edit pages related to France (the pages on Aix-en-Provence and Marseille are not "geography articles" as you quite wrongly suggest). When this is not the case, such errors are to be expected and should not be taken personally. Now you seem intent on exacting some form of revenge, quite outside wikipedia rules. Why not make yourself a nice cup of tea instead? Mathsci (talk) 22:57, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

This is not a revert war, therefore not a content dispute. The above comments still reflect a lack of good faith and WP:OWN#EVENTS as displayed continously despite my repeated warning. This continues with Mathsci's recent revert of my comment[60]. I might have said geography but perhaps more broadly cities and towns fall under a category of geography and places. My original complaint stands as a violation of WP:AGF and WP:OWN#EVENTS. Comment on content not editors as they say. Michellecrisp (talk) 08:07, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Michellecrisp, please, please, please, take some time to learn about WP. I can remove any comment on my own talk page if I wish. Your complaint is absurd and, as an administrator has already said, whatever your grievances, no administrator can help you. One remedy is to get a detailed book on the history/recent history of Marseille or Aix-en-Provence, read and digest the contents and then transfer that information to the English wikipedia. If the only books are in French, polish up your French. Become an "expert" on the topic. You are wasting time, space and energy here. Go and have that nice cup of tea now, it's starting to get cold :) Mathsci (talk) 08:53, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

BTW you risk being blocked if you continue publicly harrassing me here. You have read but ignored that I am on a wikibreak. You are starting to be extremely disruptive. If I am not editing/reverting how can you continue to make these very unreasonable claims about wikiownership? Please stop now. Mathsci (talk) 08:59, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

This is not harassment, I am reporting your behaviour of accusations of being lazy and unconstructive [61] and being disruptive and having no "special knowledge of French or France" [62] and [63] then reverted a legitimate edit of mine [64] which I believe this was solely done as I did that edit. This developed into a personal attack as shown in the edit summary of [65] and still displaying WP:OWN in [66]. And then accused me of "not aiding the WP project" at [67] At no point has this editor assumed good faith about my edits. I have tried to reason and warn about lacking good faith on numerous occasions to no avail [68], [69]. Become an "expert" on the topic. is classical WP:OWN#EVENTS. Please provide diffs of harassment to back your claim. I have provided diffs of violation of WP:AGF and WP:OWN#EVENTS Michellecrisp (talk) 13:49, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Jimbo comments on Mantanmoreland and Gary Weiss.

This discussion has been moved to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Mantanmoreland.

For the record, I did not say that Mantanmoreland is in fact Gary Weiss. I have investigated that claim repeatedly and I have been unable to find any proof of it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:23, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

For the record, immediately after you claim this here you say My saying at one point that I believed Mantanmoreland to be Gary Weiss is not a smoking gun or anything like one. WAS 4.250 (talk) 10:31, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

That is exactly the same thing, and it is exactly right. I have never said that Mantanmoreland is in fact Gary Weiss. I have said that I believed it at a point in time. There is a huge difference between saying that something is a fact, versus saying that I believed it. Belief, knowledge, not the same thing. I have been completely clear about this on multiple occassions. To this day, I have no proof that it is true.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:08, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

However, that you believed it would seem to indicate that it was a reasonable thing to suspect, and that people shouldn't have been considered "proxying for a banned user" just for voicing that suspicion. —Random832 14:40, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Collectonian

Having been an editor of the Keeping Up Appearances pages for some time, I have worked hard to get them to the quality they are. I have written large amounts of the episode synopsises, much of the plot summary and made many other contributions. So as you can appreciate, when user Collectatonian decides start reverting my improvements, I was not very pleased. The recent issue has surrounded the List of Keeping Up Appearances episode page, where I have made a minor adjustment to the layout by putting technical details under a new sub-heading and the information that follows in bullet points. This is so that users can find technical details quickly, rather than having to read a whole paragraph. I would like to point out that my changes to what is known as the “lead” of the page are hardly drastic, and the information is still there, present and correct, just laid-out slightly differently. The lead of the episode page follows the guidelines of the manual of style, yet Collectonian doesn’t seem to think so. Collectonian disagrees, and describes my changes as vandalism. She has threatened me with warnings about being banned, and personally attacked me and another user, calling us: “inexperienced" and "trumps” ”. Such attacks are uncalled for, and if anyone should be banned it’s Collectonian. Furthermore, she has now completely changed the entire page for the Keeping Up Appearances episodes, inserting a new tabular format with no consensus whatsoever, yet when I revert such changes to the previous layout, she claims it’s vandalism; hardly just. A user can’t come on here and accuse someone of vandalism, just because they disagree with their policies. If Collectonian persists in reverting my improvements, I have no choice other than to revert them back. The user is being highly disruptive, and as an editor I have to make the right decisions for the public, my layout is concise, quick and efficient, and is the best way of displaying information. Most importantly, I will not have other users being attacked, and Collectonian needs to understand her actions will not be tolerated. Hopefully an administrator will put an end to the user’s unjust reverts, derogatory comments and bullying tactics.Edito*Magica (talk) 21:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I've issued User:Edito*Magica a warning about labeling edits he/she disagrees with "vandalism", and have also asked him/her to review WP:3RR. Corvus cornix_talk 22:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

After discussion with Edito*Magica, he/she has agreed to follow the dispute resolution process. Corvus cornix_talk 23:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

So now I can add filing retalitory ANIs without even following protocol and giving me a notice about it to the list of your attacks. Collectonian (talk) 00:11, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

You really are petty aren’t you?Edito*Magica (talk) 10:52, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Edito*Magica, I highly recommend that you refrain from these uncivil comments and that you discuss this on the article's talk page, where there is surprisingly little actual discussion. --Farix (Talk) 12:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I can also add drastically changing tabular layout without consensus to your list of attacks, Collectonian. Edito*Magica (talk) 21:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Collectorian switched to using the standard template for the episode lists. You have been the only one reverting the changes even after other editors supported the change by restoring them. If Collectorian was editing against consensus, then there would be others reverting Collectorian's edits or speaking against them on the talk page. However, the talk page is silent of protests except for your demands to maintain your preferred layout. Now can you stop with the edit war and actually discuss the issue on the talk page? --Farix (Talk) 22:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, only 3 other editors have supported the new layout, which is hardly enough for a fair consensus. Secondly, I have taken the discussion to the talk page and got nowhere. And thirdly, the old table layout had been in place for months and there was no demand for a change, and the discussion page was also silent from protests when the old layout was in place, implying there was nothing wrong with it, why change it? The layout is following the rules and the layout is also a standard Wiki format used by many other articles. I really hope the despute is soon resolved so we can all move on. Edito*Magica (talk) 01:35, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

3 editor opposed to 1. So far as the previous table, I'll point that consensus can change. The previous table has lost consensus since there is now a dispute, with the majority of editors favoring the newer table over the old. You also haven't presented a compelling reason as to why this episode list should remain inconsistent with what is considered the prevailing episode list format. --Farix (Talk) 02:00, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Paul Tillich

Obstructive and tendentious editing by Saul Tillich (talk · contribs) disrupting Talk:Paul Tillich with lengthy personal essays [70] WP:SOAP and WP:SOUP. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 00:52, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

This seems to be heavily rooted in Dispute resolution. I would take the necessary steps of WP:RFC or WP:RFAR. Wisdom89 _{(T / ^C)} 04:46, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, if the user is being incivil, try the non-abrasive WP:WQA. Wisdom89 _{(T / ^C)} 04:49, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Sorry about the irritation; the situation is getting to be a severe nuisance. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 02:42, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Not an irritation in the slightest, I can sympathize with you regarding the situation. Good luck. Drop me a line if want any additional help. Wisdom89 _{(T / ^C)} 03:10, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Staygyro

Page move vandalism? I'm not sure quite what Staygyro (talk · contribs) is doing. Could somebody block this user and fix the tangled web of moves? Corvus cornix_talk 00:52, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I think its just a misguided attempt to create redirects for possible spelling variations, not anything malicious--Jac16888 (talk) 01:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

that is my intention Staygyro (talk) 01:02, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

if you want to create a redirect to another page, rather than doing it through page# moves, create the pages with the spelling variations, using #REDIRECT [[Name of the article to redirect to]]. --Jac16888 (talk) 01:06, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

on the same issue, i have accidentally created a page called Dmitri Hvorostovsk. Can an admin please delete it Staygyro (talk) 01:49, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

• Done. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 01:57, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

It is inappropriate to open a public discussion concerning these blocks, on this page, on the other noticeboards, or anywhere else on the website. Appeals should be submitted to the Arbitration Committee via email.^[71] Comments redacted; archived. Thanks for your patience. El_C 02:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

11,000 images tagged NFUR in one day

And 6,000 yesterday [[72]]. All to be modified in 7 days or face deletion. How can that possibly be squared with with betacommandbot's stated desire of not wanting to delete images? I have had 7 tags appear in my watchlist today, and looking at comments on the bot talk page from another user with 7 and an 11, that seems about average, with one admin getting an unholy 65 direct talk page tags over the 2 days. I, like other well meaning editors who have not uploaded these images do have a willingness to investigate, fix and educate where necessary, but are simply put off by the sheer number of tags in a short space of time, with no tags applied for the preceeding 5 days. The intransigence/absence of betacommand on the bot talk page is also frustrating many. I have also seen the speedy deletion of images purely on the say so of uploaders getting fed up with the bot and just jacking it in. The majority of uploaders just seem baffled/confused/annoyed, with none really making any headway faced with tag explosions like this. Many image tags wont even be seen by the uploader in 7 days. Something seriously needs to be done about the way this bot is operated/scheduled. MickMacNee (talk) 04:36, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I am glad that I am not the only one angered by this. I find it incredibly disruptive and destructive to Wiki. While I understand that the policy is clearly written, the policy was recently changed, but in most of these cases, the image does qualify as fair use, but it simply needs to mention the specific article its already used in. Why can the bot just do this automatically? Some of the users it is notifying aren't even active anymore to change the image. --Veritas (talk) 04:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

This policy has been effect since mid 2006. and bots cannot write valid rationales. β^_command 04:46, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree with this. While tagging images is necessary, tagging them at this rate overwhelms the ability of Wikipedians to deal with fixing fair use criteria, the ability of admins to delete the images without a script, and the ability of people to review that the bot did tag the image properly. Please slow down the bot to reasonable levels. Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 04:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Even still, why does a bot even need to do this? We're sacrificing reason for efficiency at a destructive and brutal pace. If it is not possible for a bot to operate in a constructive manner it should be shut down. It is clearly not capable of fixing problems, but only pointing them out and often to users who are no longer active and unable to do anything about it. Thus, what happens? Images are deleted and we will wait a year or so until someone else comes along to add new images. A ridiculous waste of editor time thus indicating that the bot really isn't all that efficient in the long-term. --Veritas (talk) 04:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree we need a bot to tag these to conform to policy. But given that we have 40+ days, I'd urger that we work on this current backlog past the 7 day limit. Its worked before and can work again. Also, a schedule of when runs would occur, would be most helpful. MBisanz ^talk 04:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

This is an example of the intransigence. Just completely brushes aside any criticism. Not everyone has been here since mid 2006, especially many new uploaders, and many images pre-date 2006. This bot has got to be one of the most divisive things I've seen on WP, and yet, no direction is given to a precise summary as to consensus for this bot's usage. This is not about the policy, this is about the effectiveness of the bot to apply it. I have seen nowhere in the myriad of talk pages about this, any actual analysis of whether the bot statistically meets it's stated aim of not seeing an end result of deleted images, rather than being just a very fast and efficient deleter of content, valid or not. Denying that the bot plays any role in the admittedly final human decision to delete is just outrageous, especially given the timescale, numbers, and the reactions to it's tags from users of all experience levels. MickMacNee (talk) 04:57, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that BC is being intransigent, but that the use of this bot must be monitored and restricted due to its damaging side-effects that tags images faster than other, active, editors can step in to fix the backlog of destruction it leaves behind. BC seems to have a tendency to closely stick to policy. That's the safe route and there's nothing wrong with it save the fact that it doesn't always account for the human element of Wikipedia. --Veritas (talk) 05:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Veritas, when ever BCBot makes a run that day's limit is normally extended. since we are getting closer I thought Id identify as many as possible so they could have time to fix them prior to the deadline. β^_command 05:03, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not completely sure of the technical aspects of how the bot works, but I know that I haven't had any complaints about it until the past couple days so I'm not sure if something has changed recently. It is troubling though since I do feel that the bot's actions are negating is usefulness. Perhaps we can extend these 7 day deadlines until the back-log is cleaned up? --Veritas (talk) 05:06, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

PS, why is this convo going on at AN as well as AN/I? --Veritas (talk) 05:09, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

That convo looks like a general gripe, I am raising issue with the incident of NFUR tagging 15,000 images in 1/2 days, and the multitude of issues that comes from that. MickMacNee (talk) 05:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

(ecx3)That is reasonable to ID them now so there is a greater opportunity of the uploader seeing and fixing them. Would it be possible to extend the delete date in the tag to say 14 or 21 days to reduce the incidence of uninvolved Admin X wandering across the image, not knowing about the extension on the Cat page, and deleting it? MBisanz ^talk 05:13, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

This issue has come up several times. Part of the problem is that instead of tagging a few hundred images each day, the bot runs on this task only once in a while but tags many thousands of images instead. There is no need to extend the deadline, really, this will create a huge backlog when it comes time to delete these things anyway, so the deadline will effectively slip. It would be nice, though, if this task was run more frequently but at a lower rate. Mangojuice^talk 05:11, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

What use is that if the tag says 7 days, and people just chuck it in because they haven't a clue what to do? There is no information anywhere about this deadline we are getting close to. Of the 7 images I have seen marked, 2 required a 10 second mod, most had specific tags that can direct to organised interest groups such as applying dvd cover templates, and none actually deserve deletion. Some even date from Nov/Dec 2005, so why are you rushing this through now? Why has there been no attention earlier by people who know what needs to be done to satisfy this bot? MickMacNee (talk) 05:12, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The copyright tags on the images clearly state what is required of the uploader to fulfill policy. There are also a few hundred active admins and a help desk for anyone confused to contact about what to do. I really don't see how this is something the bot can be faulted for. Lara❤Love 05:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree and disagree at the same time. Ideally, that is how it should work, but clearly not how it works in practice. I am tending to favor Mango's suggestion here that the bot run the task more often. This would create a far more agreeable tagging to editor-intervention ratio that is actually maintainable. --Veritas (talk) 05:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I am planning more runs, I had a massive run about a month ago. this cleared what I missed last time and future runs should not be as bad, Im hoping to run this ~2 times a week. β^_command 05:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

That fits from the admin who said it wasnt her job to explain the procedures on the project page she patrolled, necessitating edits of the instructions by the user themselves. MickMacNee (talk) 05:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

What project? Lara❤Love 05:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

There's nothing at all wrong with this. I just cleaned up one myself, and i'm lousy at writing these things. Luckily, it's pretty much boilerplate, and if you can remember most of it, then you're fine, and if you can Cut n paste to fit the use of a given image, then it's easier. there's a bit of mix and match, running down your entire notification list with one clipboard text-set would be bad, but it's not that tough to do. And this doesn't affect every editor, just those who never read the full 'how to upload images' guides, or who disregarded the tough part about writing something. Those editors will get the notes, as will all editors who have any article with such an image in their watchlist. I just grabbed one, and will probably find others in the next few days. This isn't as big a deal as it is being made out to be. And, it does keep WP out of legal dangers and hassles. Would it be nice if the tagging bot ran more often than now? Maybe. It would probably irritate the serial violators more and a few might quit uploading, and a few might start writing, and then we'd have less for the rest of us to do. Or maybe not. But that we have 18K unfurred (sounds dirty, don't it?) images is even worse. ThuranX (talk) 05:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I know how to write FUR's, it's easy, I did one right off the bat, but when 7 pop up in your watchlist in one day, in the middle of a big article project yourself, none of which you uploaded but want kept, all of which are not violaters, some pre-dating the policy at all, some that could blatantly be fixed in seconds, some you know full well will not get the attention (it's not all project based images), but the effect of lumping it all in one, and with attitude of the operator, and the complete lack of historical guidance, you have to wonder if the stated aim of not wanting to delete images is correct. Had I just seen one or two flagged, I probably wouldn't be here now, and be none the wiser as to the tip of the iceberg surrounding this bot. MickMacNee (talk) 05:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Three of us on the ice hockey project fixed about 40 images in a very short period of time. There is no reason why we have to hold to a hard 7 day deadline if the backlog cannot be adequately tackled, but if editors with an interest in affected articles and projects are dedicated, it can be handled fairly easily. It just takes some time. Resolute 05:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Beta just said that he's planning on having the bots do more frequent runs. I am in favor of a large number of these being tagged now so long as the bot does regular and fairly frequent runs in the future so that users interested in maintenance have time to step in to fix the often minor adjustments that are required. --Veritas (talk) 05:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah, for the day when there'll be a "11,000 images fixed in one day" thread. MickMacNee, if these images are so easy to fix, why are they not being fixed? Why is it so that years down the track, this bot finds thousands upon thousands of bad images each time it runs? --bainer (talk) 05:30, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

There are clear issues surrounding the lack of links and interest from the bot operator to inform aggrieved users of the past discussions about this bot (are there any agreed consensuses? Not about the policy, but the specific use of the bot). The issue is not clear cut when most advocates of the bot are expert admins, and most aggrieved by it are new editors. The issue is clearly affecting many many editors. Just needing a 17 point not my fault header on the bot talk page that has an archive for every month should tell people something is wrong. I say again, has any analysis been done on the effectiveness of this bot on gaining rationales to meet policy? As opposed to just hastening deletion of perfectly acceptable material? MickMacNee (talk) 05:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The material is not acceptable if it's not fixed; that's the policy, and the bot is just alerting admins that there is a deficiency. As for Betacommand and his communication skills, yes, they leave something to be desired, and I've had my own 2 cents to say about that a time or two. Nonetheless, the bot shouldn't stop running just because it's delivering the bad news that there is a lot of stuff that needs fixing). Mangojuice^talk 05:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

You absolutely cannot ignore the scheduling issue, and the complete lack of any historical links or summaries. 'see the archives' is all you will get, if you're lucky. It has changed my willingness to fix things today, it has caused an admin with 60 odd tags to flip out, and caused others to just give up and say they want the images deleted rather than deal with bcb anymore, which were probably fixable. MickMacNee (talk) 05:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

In the time you've spent debating here, you could have fixed a few dozen images. Also, Wikipedia isn't really hurt by copyrighted images being deleted, appropriate for fair use or not, so it's not damaging the 'pedia. It's an inconvenience for some, obviously, but it's a bigger issue for Wikipedia to be improperly using copyrighted images. Lara❤Love 05:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

• I know this probably doesn't matter to the deletionists, but there are a lot of editors (myself included) who have simply given up on uploading images. BCBot takes a subsection of a subsection (10C is it?) and uses it to tag tons of perfectly acceptable images for deletion. Then we have admins who simply plow through the backlog, deleting without bothering to check if it's something simple to correct. I'm done with trying to add images to this project, at least until BCBot is reined in or shut down completely. Bellwether ^B_C 05:59, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

It's silly to say that deleting images doesn't hurt the articles. It's also a little strange to give up on uploading images. It's not hard to do it the right way, if the image is truly appropriate per policy and guidelines. I won't opine on the schedule though. Sooner or later we do need to get to a resting place where most of the images have the data they need. Wikidemo (talk) 06:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that many of the images at hand were uploaded correctly, then the guidelines changed, and suddenly there's a bot coming by screaming about the coming image apocalypse. BCB is bad diplomacy; Wikipedia rules are in flux, and when they change, thousands of articles are affected. How do we deal with this? Do we make it easy to bring the old ones in to compliance with the new rules? Maybe get a bot to fix that? Or do we get lazy and just send a bot out to tell editors they're wrong and their work is being erased. Even if the form is easy now, why should I trust it? Why should I assume the rules aren't going to change again such that the band name or record number has to be included with every album cover, and suddenly BCB rolls by with another 11k nastygrams per day? Allowing this to proceed unabated costs Wikipedia the trust of its editors. —Torc. ^(Talk.) 11:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Isn't really hurt? A picture tells a thousand words. How about the editors chucking it in left right and centre every time this thing runs like this? In the time you've spent debating here, you could have fixed a few dozen images, As said above, I do fix images, but on days like today you think what's the point?, especially when you research and see the background to this issue, and see the massive effect one user is allowed to have without comeback. The copyright issue is all well and good, but again, this bot today has tagged in my watchlist sample, 30% of images that were loaded in 2005, and not a single actual copyright violator (after modification to meet a seemingly ever changing policy). Would you create content if you knew you might have to do it 3 times after each deletion retrieval? How does anyone expect any other jobs to get done in the face of that kind of lunacy. MickMacNee (talk) 06:04, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

• My main problem is that he's taking a subsection of a subsection, and applying it like it was the effin' tablets brought down from the mountain with Moses. And the admins that mindlessly plow through the backlog, without checking each image carefully aren't doing the project any favors either. There's just next to no common sense applied here. Bellwether ^B_C 06:07, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

In the time you've spent... is such a horrendously fallacious argument to make. In the time I've spent correcting correctly tagged images so the bot stops bitching I could have made substantive contributions to the project. We have X hours of editor manpower, yet a machine insists on determining exactly how we'll get to use those hours, and it has decided that forcing editors at gunpoint to perform dull, meaningless bureaucracy is the best use of our resources. And those hours are gone: whatever it decides, plus the lost hours from the editors who just bail from Wiki altogether when they get spammed by a machine, plus the lost hours from editors who will eventually have to reupload the same image because there was nothing wrong with it before aside from botardedness. —Torc. ^(Talk.) 10:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

What is silly to me is to stop uploading images because of BCBot. Just upload them under the policy. They don't get tagged if they meet the requirements. Lara❤Love 06:13, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

• No, what is silly is treating a subsection of a subsection like it was holy writ. And dismissiveness is usually the best option when dealing with those less experienced than you. I uploaded my first image maybe a month ago. I haven't uploaded a new image in a couple of weeks at least, after getting bludgeoned by BCBot, both on images I'd uploaded, and on images at articles I contributed regularly to. I'm tired of it, and I'm not going to be uploading (or working with images at all) until this bot is either reined in or shut down. Bellwether ^B_C 06:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
• The issue is also non-uploaders wanting to fix things, faced with ridiculous conditions to do so, the issue of minimal exposure images being lost due to an arbitrary 7 day deadline, and images that were uploaded under the now out of date correct policy, being tagged multiple times every time a phrase changes. The issue is also the us and them attitude, there is absolutly no link from the bot page for a collaberative effort for experienced editors to fix things in a coordinated manner, nor any links to major consensus regarding the bot, it's all hidden all over the shop, all that exists is a long list of excuses and get out clauses. Most loaders hit by the bot only know to go to the bot page if that, and realy struggle to even comprehend what is required of them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MickMacNee (talk • contribs) 06:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

What would be a better time frame than seven days? "Arbitrary" doesn't seem appropriate considering these are images that infringe upon copyrights. Lara❤Love 06:33, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Please don't confuse Wikipedia policy with U.S. law. The former is far more restrictive than it legally has to be. Most of these images do not infringe upon copyrights; they simply haven't had a specific rationale for fair use written yet. An appropriate time frame would be one that gives actual humans (not bots) time to give a thumbs-up or thumbs-down to each individual image, and to write a rationale if the image is to be kept. *** Crotalus *** 06:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

They are not infringing until examined and challenged in court. The one I corrected today was patently legally correct, it just did not meet whatever matching criteria the bot uses (these are I believe kept secret, why?). Many of these are not infringing at all, it is purely the bot design that tags them. Giving 7 days notice on an article loaded in 2005 along with 15,000 others at the same time is patently ridiculous. It is also my understanding that an image with a few keywords but filled with gibberish does not get tagged. MickMacNee (talk) 06:46, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I know the quesiton was rhetorical but it would make more sense to tag all the images at once rather than haphazardly, and give people a very short time to correct new uploads but a long time (say, March 1 or March 15) to correct older ones. That way people could plan their work load, and rest assured that once they addressed all their notices they would be done with it. That's not going to happen, but just my $0.02. Indeed, the vast majority of these images don't violate copyright and are perfectly fine for Wikipedia, they just lack some data fields on the image file. Wikidemo (talk) 11:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem here is that people who either don't understand the Wikimedia Foundation policies or don't understand how to write a proper fair use rationale are having their images deleted. It seems to me like they want someone to blame. Either Betacommand, his bot or the deleting admins are taking flak for enforcing the policies laid down by the Foundation. The policy is not decided by Betacommand, his bot or the deleting admin. Also it is not always simple to write a FUR if you are not the uploader. How can I know the source of an album cover that someone probably google searched? Also with regard to Bellwether's comment "No, what is silly is treating subsection of a subsection like it was holy writ." - If any part of this section is not met, the image may be deleted. It's written in the "enforcement" section right below the one I linked to. You may think that 10c is trivial but the Wikimedia Foundation (ie the owners of the servers and they set rules which we cannot override) do not. There's nothing silly about a bot pointing out violations of policy. James086^{Talk | Email} 07:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

There are issues on how it is being scheduled. There are people who want to fix things, this bot is not helping by going the extra yard and scaring new users and annoying old users that have complied with a now changed policy. At the very least this should have been an internal project bot to highlight first issues for an experienced group to review/quick fix, without going straight to tagging the uploader, placing a massive incomprehensible tag on the image, and deleting within 7 days (that isn't being enforced because it is not working, so why say it?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by MickMacNee (talk • contribs) 07:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Plus nobody it seems is aware how the bot checks to decide when and when not to flag, it's whole design and operation appears to be in one persons hands. That to me is wrong when it affects so many other editors. MickMacNee (talk) 07:30, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

There is no-one more suited to writing a fair use rationale than the uploader. If they don't know how, then they shouldn't have uploaded the image. New/inexperienced users may not have known about fair-use and the policy, but the message given by BetacommandBot links to Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline and Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. I think tags such as {{no rationale}} are pretty clear, but if you can think of a better way of phrasing the message that needs to be conveyed by the tag, go for it. Finally; even if the images aren't being deleted within 7 days it provides an incentive to provide a valid rationale now instead of procrastinating. We can't change this policy even if it is overwhelming for new users (I stayed away from fair-use for a long time). James086^{Talk | Email} 07:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The images I'm often seeing tagged are ones where the uploader is usually long gone due to issues like this bot. And I don't get this idea that you can jump straight in and add text without any knowledge, and it will usually be fixed if wrong, yet woah betide you if you add an image with even the most trivial of non-compliances. Only a small subset of images really need the uploader's actual knowledge. Understanding the rules around nfcc is a nightmare. The bot is damaging efforts for new uploaders and experienced fixers at the same time. To suggest all is hunky dory at the moment is daft. The lack of group effort or consensus regarding this bot is also amazing, as fixing furs at the rate they are being tagged is way out of the league of even the most wiki-addicted. MickMacNee (talk) 08:08, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Replying to MickMacNee: As far as I can tell, the bot has a very simple algorithm. It takes the name of the pages an image is being used on and looks for them in on the image page (note that the links at the bottom of an image page are automagically generated, and so don't count). If any of the images are precisely named on the page (doesn't even have to be linked), ie. including things like "(diambiguation bit)", then the bot passes it. There is even a toolserver link around somewhere to a tool where you can check your images to see if Betacommandbot will tag them or not. So MickMacNee is correct to say that you can write gibberish on a page and the bot won't be able to tell as long as you include the name of the article somewhere. Of course, if a human spots this, the image will be tagged or corrected, and the editor who did this would get warned and, if they didn't stop, blocked. There are images I know of, which lack rationales, but which have the article name on them for other reasons. The most common reason is when the description bit says "picture of random article name" (with or without the link). The bot won't be able to detect these. It does, however, detect ones that say "picture of subject of article" without naming the article. Carcharoth (talk) 08:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

If it's Just That Easy™, why does the bot fix the fair use rationale? What information is it missing? For that matter, if it only detects a linked article name if the article has been wikified, that's a bug. A fair use rationale has to name the article it's used in, but does not explicitly have to link to it.

Another bug is that the bot is too stupid to tell when a targeted page has been moved and replaced by a disambiguation page, which triggers a false NFC. If it was a human eidtor who falsely harassed a few dozen users and deleted images under false pretenses, they'd be banned for vandalism by the fifth instance. We should not be more lenient for bots than we are for people.

Another issue is how totally confrontational everything about this bot is. Look at User_talk:BetacommandBot: you're greeted with screen-tall stop sign and 17 rules that all essentially say "piss off I'm right about everything." Then read the discussions below where it gets even worse. (Seriously, read it.) —Torc. ^(Talk.) 10:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Form issues

The issue is obviously that most uploaders are ignoring the page that appears prior to the upload formula, if the users uploading Fair Use images where presented a blank form and filling it was obligatory to complete the upload we wouldn't be dealing with a backlog of 11,000 pages due to something as simple as FCC#10c. - Caribbean~H.Q. 06:38, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

• No, the issue is that WP's policies regarding image useage are so arcane and stringent that they allow bots to tag perfectly acceptable images for deletion, based on a subsection of a subsection. When this project brings their image use policies more in line with actual copyright laws, perhaps the deletionists won't have such a field day, and new uploaders (and image workers) won't become discouraged and give up. Bellwether ^B_C 06:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

You've stated this four times now. What we're discussing now is a possible way to prevent images from being improperly uploaded to begin with. Lara❤Love 06:52, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

• And you've ignored the root cause I raise four times now. The problem isn't good faith uploaders who don't know the subsection of a subsection of the NFCC that BCBot uses to tag images for deletion. The problem is primarily with the policy that allows the "letter of the law" enforcement that BC demands from initial uploaders, and the tagging itself, which seems like killing a gerbil with a bazooka to me. Bellwether ^B_C 13:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

That's a good point. A change that I would think could be easily implemented. And what would be the negatives? Lara❤Love 06:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

There are many images that predate the bot specs and were uploaded perfectly correctly. MickMacNee (talk) 06:46, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

You really have to separate this issue into two parts, old images and newly uploaded ones. Or maybe three - brand new, a few months old, and really old. Older images are a real problem because people get blindsided by the tags and by deleted images. For people actively uploading new images they can get spanked around a little bit until they learn how. "Arcane" is an overstatement, it's just a weak user interface. People grumble but I think that's more in the delivery of the message than the task they have to learn. In less than 1/2 hour you could learn most everything there is to know about how to upload images properly. It's a lot faster than learning the markup language, or learning where all the policy pages are. Nevertheless, anything that could make the process easier to get right from the start is good. Wikidemo (talk) 11:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

• The negatives are that oftentimes an image is used for articles other than the one it was specifically uploaded for, which then triggers the bot to tag it per 10C. Bellwether ^B_C 06:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I've pushed for this in bugzilla:12452. No word yet on its implementation. If someone could write the css/javascript code, we might be able to implement it locally. MBisanz ^talk 06:50, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I am suggesting a option to prevent a simmilar situation in the future, this is supposed to kill the problem at its root. About sideffects, the only one that I can perceive is that the upload process would take longer, but then again when that is compared to the time that admins spend cleaning image backlogs that effect proves meaningless. Please note that this blank form (wich should be designed so even the most dumb of bots can understand the resulting rationale) would only appear if the user selects one of the Fair Use licences, wich means that users uploading free or public images wouldn't encounter this problem. - Caribbean~H.Q. 06:50, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Most first time uploaders probably don't even know the difference between free and non free, but the editors that do are being given the runaround by the reverence being held for this bot, and ignoring the massive issues it creates and continues to create with it's tidal wave operation. The culture is also now I believe, we have a bot that fixes that, so let's not do it ourselves, or guide good faith violators. The tag box is huge and intimidating to a new user. MickMacNee (talk) 06:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Again, if a new user is going to upload a image he/she will receive the instruction page before uploading, now if they choose to ignore that, chances are that they will most likely end uploading without a rationale wich will only add to the backlog, we can't have a competition between a bot that fixes images and several tagging them, and we can't let the 'fix bot' choose if he removes a notice placed by another bot before. - Caribbean~H.Q. 06:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I would support a redoing of the image uploading procedure where incomplete uploads were prevented from happening. If a user does NOT supply a required piece of information, the page should send return an error message and stop the upload until all required info has been provided, INCLUDING the article where the pic is intended to go. This would reduce the problems on the back end that leads to all the grief this bot takes. I have no idea how this can be techincally done, but it seems a good idea. On the flipside, regardless of how inconvenient it is, the bot is doing necessary work, since images which are protected by copyright should NOT be used inappropriately on wikipedia. Remember, even "fair-use" is a violation of copyright, though being done in an "excused" manner. If you wish to excuse the violation of the rights of someone else, you should probably be very clear as to how and why and for what reason you are doing so. The bot only cleans up situations where people have not done this adequately. If it tags too many images, its probably because most people are doing it wrong, which is why we need to fix it at the "front end" before being uploaded. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 07:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Let's not get hung up on first loaders, as I've said, there are wider issue with those about them not having a clue at all. But I am seeing a very large proportion of these flags being like this: [73]. Perfectly fixable in seconds by experienced editors, yet we are being swamped, and who is coordinating these efforts, and from where? And is there any information at the page causing all these tags, the bot? No. Leaving fixes to uploaders and pontificating as such by the bot is also wrong when like this, it was loaded 18 months ago. MickMacNee (talk) 07:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

WT:TODAY should give some insight into coordination. But its rather dormant now . MBisanz ^talk 07:33, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

For those images uploaded a year and a half ago we will have to deal it with patience and using the current methods. Please note that my proposal is focused in the images being uploaded in the very close future so we don't have a similar discussion eighteen months from now. - Caribbean~H.Q. 07:34, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I was just about to make the same point - it's not fair to say uploaders should've enforced a policy that didn't exist at the time. At the same time, though, people should keep a check on their uploads. Will ^(talk) 13:03, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Disputed fair-use image deletion deadlines

Partial repost of previous post at WP:AN

Please click "show" above and have a look at the backlogs arriving soon in the "disputed fair use images" dated categories. Normally, these images would be deleted after 7 days. The practice so far has been to extend the deadline some indeterminate amount. Given that these runs by Betacommandbot were done rather close together (looks like an extended run over three days), what would be the best way to determine a suitable extension here? An extra week? An extra two weeks? I asked Betacommand on his talk page recently (a few weeks ago), and he said he was near the end of doing these runs. Previously, I put dates of 10th and 17th February on the other backlogged categories. I'd suggest putting a date of 2nd March on these categories. It isn't terribly clear where this sort of thing should be discussed, or with whom, and it seems no-one else is attempting to manage the backlogs. To avoid future disputes, I'd appreciate it if people could object to or endorse this action, here. Thanks. Carcharoth (talk) 07:08, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Well I only do logos (and some symbols and seals). Right now AWeenieMan's tools say I have ~3900 images to process. Given real life commitments and what, I would need about 3 weeks from today to get through them all. MBisanz ^talk 07:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd recommend giving them a month at least. Give the original uploaders (who might not be very active) some fair time to see the notices. I know the policies are strict and all but 18,000 images obliterated in a week just seems brutal (though kind of impressive). • Anakin ^(talk) 18:23, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Nakon (talk • contribs) 07:13, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Solution (for the future)

Stop uploading so many non-free images, and use fewer non-free images. Less time spent writing rationales, less time spent fixing images, Wikipedia is more free — its a win-win situation. Mr.Z-man 18:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Gary King, inappropriate categories, and probable unauthorised bot use

User:Gary King has been adding categories to uncategorized articles at an alarming rate. Most of these are questionable, many plainly incorrect. When I questioned some of his categorizations (here), his eventual response implied the use of a bot ("Those were automatic edits."). He has now denied that it was a bot, but is continuing to add categories despite having been asked to stop (here) by both myself and User:Pichpich. So, two issues (1) probable unauthorized bot, and (2) ongoing questionable edits. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 05:25, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm completely baffled by this whole thing. After digging through, it seems he was told at least 6 months ago that he was messing up categorization work. I think we should assign a bot to undo all the edits made using the semi- or fully-automated process for categorization because it is actually quite damaging to the project. Many of the uncategorized pages need to be sent to some kind of deletion process, which this user has clearly not tried to do, many are worse off being categorized in overly broad categories than they would be if they were returned to the uncategorized backlog where they have a chance to be dealt with competently. The most bizarre aspect of all this is Gary King's complete unresponsiveness despite repeated pleas for him to stop. I can't imagine he's ill-intentioned but the result is a disaster. Pichpich (talk) 05:36, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not a bot; I should have worded my response more carefully. I still have to hit Submit on every edit made before it gets put through to Wikipedia, so it is all manually driven. In my defense, a lot of the categories that I added were extremely suitable for their respective articles. I'll see if I can make a list of the categories that I added to which articles; I am now aware that some of the more generic categories are not suitable, but in some cases, it is also hard to tell which category say, an album should belong to when the only text in the article is "x is an album made in 2007." Also, I am not familiar with how to react to articles that I think should be deleted; please advise on that and from now on I will follow that. --Gary King (talk) 17:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The thing is: you cannot do a proper job of categorization when you're doing up to 12 edits a minute (see for instance your edits on February 13). It's also a bit hard to believe that you do anything more than hitting submit when you're editing at that speed so for all practical purposes you are running a bot. I also don't understand how you can claim ignorance on the issue of overly broad categories when you were told way back in June that this was inappropriate. Delicious Carbuncle and I have been telling you to stop for a few days but clearly you have not. I'd like to ask you to use the very process you've been running to undo all of the automated cleanup you've been doing because your experiment has been an unmitigated disaster. Hints and tips have been sitting forever at Wikipedia:WikiProject Categories/uncategorized and you were asked back in June to check these out. Among the tips are "Take your time", "Don't use overly broad categories", "Remember to use the birth/death/living categories for articles about people", but clearly you chose to disregard all of that. Pichpich (talk) 18:12, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Would it be acceptable if I add {{uncategorized|date=February 2008}} instead of their original dates, because I do not have a record of the original dates for when the templates were applied to the articles. --Gary King (talk) 18:25, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Just look at any of the examples I posted on User talk:Gary King. A brief analysis suggests it was a bot or a user with almost no comprehension of what they were reading. As far as I'm concerned, "automatic edits" is an admission that it was a bot. A manual approval would not require "changes" to "fix" it. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:31, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The reality is that I have to type out each category by hand. What the form does is offer suggestions for categories to be added to each article; articles that I have added an inappropriate category to did not have enough text for the application to suggest an appropriate category. I've removed the application so that it is not used again. --Gary King (talk) 18:50, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Again, in your own words "[I] will manually observe the edits before they are made from now on". What you are saying now, simply doesn't add up. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:59, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

What I meant was I would pay more careful attention to what I type in before submitting a category carelessly. If it were a bot submitting the categories, I can assure you that it would submit them more quickly than 12 edits a minute. --Gary King (talk) 19:03, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I am currently editing all of the articles that I added a category to in the past few days, and re-add the {{uncategorized|date=February 2008}} to each one. --Gary King (talk) 20:30, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

(arbitrary unindent) I think it would be reasonable to a) go through a bot approval process from now on and b) use the bot to either undo the changes or create a new category, say, Category:Categorization needs to be redone and tag all articles you categorized through an automated process. That may be simpler to handle and at least some of these categories make sense. Pichpich (talk) 20:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Let me try to make my recommendation and those of Carbuncle more coherent. For now, stop editing through AWB. The fact is your edit rate makes it de facto an unapproved bot so that's not an acceptable solution. There's no real rush of undoing your changes since the uncategorized backlog has now grown to 4000 after a run of User:Alaibot. Make a request for bot approval in due form. Explain how you want to fix the problem, say using the solution I proposed above. In a few days, if and when the bot is approved, let it run and we can start the process of correcting the mistakes. Pichpich (talk) 20:36, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Persistent unwarranted tagging of articles for citations and deletion

I need help in dealing with User:Blast Ulna, who is spinning out of control, tagging large numbers of articles for sources/citations or for deletion when these are clearly unwarranted. He is clearly a man on a mission and his contribution history is descending into farce, creating problems that waste time rectifying.

Though his targets are widespread, my concern is (a) articles on significant recording artists he declares unnotable, many of which he is now tagging for deletion, and (b) stub articles on albums by notable artists that consist of little more than an infobox, intro, tracklist and personnel. The information at these stubs is (a) self-evidently sourced from the album covers and (b) not likely to be challenged, and therefore not covered by the requirements of WP:V and WP:CITE, both of which appeal for commonsense in their application. When I delete the tags and explain why, he consistently reverts.

I have discussed the issue with him at length in such places as Talk:Those Who Are About to Die Salute You, Talk:The Devastations and User talk:Blast Ulna, as well as at the deletion discussion for Brood (album), which he AfD'd after I deleted his "sources" tag. (After intervention from another editor he grudgingly withdrew the nomination). From his replies, it emerges: (a) he disagrees with Wiki's policy on citations, and therefore rejects criticism; and (b) regards album articles without cited sources as possibly "elaborate hoaxes". His words. His blizzard of edits – almost all of them them demanding sources or nominating articles for deletion on the grounds the subject is unnotable – has today reached a nadir with the absurd request for a source to be cited for a record label in an infobox. (See The Devastations). (edit: Now he's outdone himself. See Home Improvements.)

His urge to see sources cited on articles is commendable and constructive, but his edits are now becoming disruptive and frivolous and he shows no sign of slowing down. I have raised the issue at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums to gain independent opinion; it was suggested there that I raise the complaint here. Grimhim (talk) 10:31, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

• Grimhim continually removes my tags, such as refimprove, reliablesources and so forth, on the grounds that WP:MUSIC allows articles on albums don't need any sources. I have told him that WP:V, being a policy, overrides WP:MUSIC, a guideline. I'm pretty sure my tags are not in any way a violation of policy. Let me know if they are. Could you also inform Grimhim on the whole Wikistalking business? Blast Ulna (talk) 10:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

• • If the infobox lists AMG or any review site, those are sources that satisfy WP:V. Once they have confirmed the existence of the album, then there is one reliable source implied with every album article: the album itself. Do we need to explicitly cite the album itself in an article about the album? Why not {{fact}} tag each track? That's not to say every tag is going to be invalid or that no citations are needed, but it's only for material that is: (1) Not covered in the standard sources like AMG, Rolling Stone, etc., (2) Not covered in the album or liner notes, and (3) likely to be challenged. It seems to me most, but not all of Blast Ulna tags seem to fit this. —Torc. ^(Talk.) 11:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
    • I tagged only articles without AMG and standard sources etc. Blast Ulna (talk) 11:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) I would remove them too if I had the energy. Policies don't override guidelines in that way. You're supposed to honor the policy and the guideline. If you think WP:MUSIC is in conflict with WP:V you should take it up as a policy matter, not by splattering Wikipedia with dozens or hundreds of contentious article tags. Look, infoboxes don't need source citations for every field. You're misreading WP:V to think they do. You have placed tags on material that you're challenging for no other reason than that they lack citations. I've spot checked a few dozen of these and found nearly all of your tags to be pointless, and about half of your "prod" tags (20 in the past day or so) to be contentious. Prod is only for uncontroversial deletions. If someone objects they can remove the tag and then it's up to you to take it to WP:AfD if you really think it's got a chance of being deletable, but please no more than a few a day because you'll overload the system. Incidentally, looking over the pattern of controversial edits done by a rogue editor is not wikistalking. It's damage control. You probably ought to slow down if you want to avoid provoking a flare-up. Wikidemo (talk) 11:30, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Please take a look at the kind of articles I tag. When I was informed of the notion that being signed to a record label made a band notable even without any sources, I tagged a few bands that have never been signed to any label. These bands and their albums have no independent sources, make no claim of having any hits, and were not signed. How is it wrong to question them? Blast Ulna (talk) 12:02, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

(Updating my comments from earlier.) Actually, a few of Blast Ulna's tags do have merit. Adding the unreferenced tag to Home Improvements, Bread and Circuses (album), Tomorrow's Blues, and Daughter of Time was entirely appropriate, since they don't list any third party reviews in the info box and really have absolutely nothing aside from a primary source; while primary sources are allowed, they're not allowed to be the only source for an article. Also, The Devastations article really doesn't assert notability enough to escape a notability tag, and the AfD for that is somewhat appropriate. —Torc. ^(Talk.) 11:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

A side issue, perhaps, but your point that AfD nom is appropriate for The Devastations is wrong. According to Wikipedia:Notability (music)#Criteria for musicians and ensembles, notability is achieved by any of the criteria which includes "(5) Has released two or more albums on a major label or one of the more important indie labels ..." The article's discography lists two albums on the Beggars Banquet Records label. (The BB link was wrong, admittedly ... I've fixed that) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grimhim (talk • contribs) 12:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Not really fixed; the article still has only the band's own webpage and their myspace page. Nothing verifiably notable. Blast Ulna (talk) 12:05, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

By the way, here is the diff between one of the articles before I tagged it and now. It seems to have been much improved, especially considering how small an article it is. So, are my tags disruptive, or do they help improve Wikipedia? Blast Ulna (talk) 12:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Discussion on this point continues at a more appropriate place, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums#Diff. Grimhim (talk) 06:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

User: Sarvagnya

This editor's obnoxious behavior towards several editors and articles is appalling and out of control, and needs to stop. It's steadily been escalating to a point that requests, warnings and alerts have not deterred the editor from changing his/her ways, even after a number of months.

The editor has made it a habit of being incivil with editors who make edits that he/she disagrees with. The editor has been requested and warned on several occasions. Once here, and on another occasion, I myself requested the editor to stop being so overly-critical of others contributions and start giving some recognition so that editors don't leave as a result of the unnecessary incivility (evidenced here). There are several other examples which can be found through this editor's talk page history (unfortunately, this editor has made it a habit to delete many of the comments on his/her page) and through some article talk pages where this editor has made comments.

However, he/she continues to resort to using a judgemental tone in edit summaries evidenced-here, assumes bad faith, is rude, calling others contributions names, and making it a priority to direct personal attacks at editors who do not support his/her edits and/or reasoning. The editor also forces others to the point of breaching civility without seeming to commit such a breach themselves. This can be seen as he/she scatters some valid points among an extensive attack on an article or on those who have contributed to it. This is evidenced especially here. Again, there are other examples, but i cite only this one as it was the final straw that prompted me to report such behavior. (On a separate note, he/she has also made other attacks on the article and its contributors over the last couple of years, and yet, in all this time, has made no actual positive contributions towards improving the article significantly. In stark contrast, the editors involved have made a major improvement from the nonsense it was to begin with.)

The editor uses mannerisms like 'I'm just obsessed with improving this article', 'This article is dear to me' and 'I am just as frustrated with the state of the article as you are', or the like, as a justification for the impolite, incivil and inconsiderate communications he/she uses, when really, such communications are unwarranted under any circumstance.

This editor in addition to often assuming bad faith, often assumes WP:OWN over the articles he/she concerns himself/herself with. He/she has vandalized articles (or blanked material without explanation), and when left a warning about it, has deliberately deleted the warning (seen here). Similarly, the editor removed a request (that an otherwise reasonable editor would have taken the time explain to the concerned editor who made the request) labeling it 'trolling' here. It is ironic that he/she expects reasoning from others, when he/she often fails to provide any when he/she makes edits or removals of information. He/she in effect thinks its justifiable to do anything as he/she sees fit, without any explanation to support it. For example, the editor has blanked out entire references in an article without properly explaining how or why the references are 'extremist' (as he/she indicates in his/her edit summary here), perhaps in an attempt to advance his/her position that content from this article should not be mentioned in another article, Carnatic music. Having deleted these references, the editor then goes one step further and adds tags that there are no references for the article here. In several other instances, editors have requested for some sort of explanation for his/her reverts and edit wars evidenced-here, but again, no explanation is given as he/she asserts WP:OWN over these articles. Similarly, when an editor has requested that he/she stop making derogatory statements, his/her reply involves telling the other editor to stop whining evidenced-here.

This overall style of interaction between editors has resulted in driving away some contributors. Whether it is a lack of patience, or just a deliberate attempt to assume WP:OWN over certain articles he/she concerns himself/herself with, driving away editors is the direct opposite of a postive contribution. It is a serious issue that us editors have been forced to tolerate such incivility, disrespect and persistent assumption of bad faith by him/her, when it shouldn't be happening in the first place, (nor is it necessary).

For these reasons, I request that this editor be blocked for a period of time, both to prevent this happening again (until he/she cools off), and to make it clear that such behaviour is not tolerated at Wikipedia. This editor needs some time so that he/she can refresh his/her style of interacting with other editors (this would involve learning to show more respect for other editors contributions to Wikipedia, and also, learn to show more control over what he/she edits and how emotionally involved he/she gets in disputes). Warnings and requests have clearly not worked, and I, nor any other editor, wishes to stoop to the same obnoxious level as him/her, nor would any editor like to leave as a result of such obnoxious behaviour, or gaming of the system. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Huh! So, here is an ANI which is a result of content dispute from Carnatic Music.

Ncmvocalist, how did you conclude expressions such as 'I'm just obsessed with improving this article', 'This article is dear to me' and 'I am just as frustrated with the state of the article as you are', etc as " unwarranted under any circumstance" ? I do not see any logical reasoning why they are unwarranted under any circumstances.

Regarding removing the warning, I would like to see the policy which states not to remove the warning. On the other hand, Ncmvocalist has been templating the warnings on a user who has written almost a dozen FAs!

And again what is all this with this diff? Those tags are completely relevant to that article, and Sarvagnya has done a good job to that article by those tags. By addressing those tags, the article can only be improved further. Oh, yeah, I observed the previous diff given above, regarding extremist ref. Thats again a content dispute, and a prolonged discussion had happened tamilnation.org and other such sites.

And the plain allegations of assumption of bad faith is just reciprocative on Ncmvocalist's conduct here. Where is the assumption of good faith here? - KNM ^Talk 15:50, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Mentorship

If an editor is determined to have a need for mentoring, how is that mandated and enforced? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 32.138.11.104 (talk) 14:57, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

If an editor is determined to have a need for mentoring, who determined that need?

Perhaps User:32.138.11.104 can enforce this mentoring by mentoring the user. Archtransit (talk) 18:55, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Is this a serious response? If so, a MedCab mediator has determined a need. I was curious about procedure. The user in question is User:Lucy-marie. She has flatly declined any offers of assistance. 32.137.78.227 (talk) 19:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

She's been here since 25 February 2006 (2 years) with 5042 edits, what here needs Administrator assistance? --Hu12 (talk) 19:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Based on this Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-01-13 24 character merging of minor characters is on hold, perhaps its best to communicate with those involved in the case?--Hu12 (talk) 19:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The original mediator found her in need of mentoring before he recused himself for Lent. 32.140.92.134 (talk) 19:57, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Maintenance tag vandalism

• see Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#National_Policing_Improvement_Agency
• see Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive365#is_this_disruptive.3F

Maintenance tag vandalism using sock IP's on National Policing Improvement Agency

• 09:11, 12 February 2008 - -17:52, 12 February 2008 - -17:57, 12 February 2008- -18:03, 12 February 2008- -10:53, 14 February 2008 - -14:16, 14 February 2008 - -14:50, 14 February 2008- -15:17, 14 February 2008 - -15:17, 14 February 2008

Maintenance tag vandalism using sock IP's on Serious Organised Crime Agency

• 09:12, 12 February 2008- -17:52, 12 February 2008- -17:55, 12 February 2008- -17:57, 12 February 2008- -17:59, 12 February 2008- -18:03, 12 February 2008 - -18:05, 12 February 2008 - -18:07, 12 February 2008- -10:54, 14 February 2008 - -14:17, 14 February 2008- -14:51, 14 February 2008

Bamford (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) works for the NPIA, see [74][75][76][77]. Despite being invited to the discussion on COI/N, The account and IP's continue to edit, and have have persistently removed the maintenance tags (see above), despite the fact that he/she is infact the one with the conflict. Input please.--Hu12 (talk) 15:11, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Bamford does seem most insistent about that tag. I'll drop him a note. Cheers, Jack Merridew 15:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, we have all tried to communicate but with little result, hopefully you'll have better luck--Hu12 (talk) 15:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

If he removes the maintenance tags again, I would endorse a block. After numerous notes from multiple editors, it looks like Bamford just does not "get it." --Kralizec! (talk) 18:34, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd endorse a block along the same lines. WP:AGF has its limits and this editor(s) is clearly pushing them. MBisanz ^talk 18:52, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Same here, also I left him a note on his talk page. Compwhiz II^(Talk)_(Contribs) 19:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I seriously doubt you are going to extract any change of heart from this editor. They are not interested in community editing because they are certain they are the only source of the truth. I suggest that they are blocked, the socks recorded, and a checkuser run. If it proves that the editor is using the facilities of the establishment that is the subject of the article then a little email to the management might be in order... LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Blocked

Bamford ignored the various warnings, reverted the articles in question back to his preferred version ([78], [79]), and issued a rather scathing reply [80]. As such, I have blocked Bamford for 31 hours for his continuing disruptive editing. --Kralizec! (talk) 22:59, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

This series of 25 edits to his talk page have me completely baffled. They appear to consist of adding four {{pp-semi-vandalism}} and fourteen {{COI2}} tags. While these ten edits appear to be the standard variety of rant against the injustice of following Wikipedia's official policies and guidelines (or so I presume - TLDR), I do not understand why even a disgruntled editor would add pointless maintenance tags to their talk page. --Kralizec! (talk) 18:30, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Yorkshirian

The Guy Fawkes article continues to have problems with an WP:OWNership editor named User:Yorkshirian. The protest group Project Chanology incorporated the use of the Guy Fawkes mask in V for Vendetta (and also used on the cover of the novel), and I placed a photograph of the protest under the "Popular culture" section of the Guy Fawkes page. One user, and only one user, continues to edit war over it. He was blocked for WP:3RR a day ago for removing the photo five times in 24 hours, despite other Users saying they want it. Four users (User:Cirt, User:R. Baley and User:silly rabbit have either the photo on the page, or said they want it on the page on the Talk. User:Yorkshirian continues to edit war still over it.[81], [82]. He is also naming a section title his own POV, calling the photo "Spam" which is a personal attack.[83], [84] He has called me a troll [85], [86]. I request he be blocked for edit-warring against consensus (again) and for personal attacks. --David Shankbone 15:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Since when is calling something spam a personal attack? It's not like he said you were a can of Spam or anything. Luigi30 (Taλk) 15:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Calling a good faith contribution SPAM, when it has been pointed out that it is not SPAM by another Admin, and calling me a troll twice, are personal attacks. We don't call the good faith contributions of long-term editors SPAM. SPAM impugns the motives of the contributor. --David Shankbone 15:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

David Shankbone against the warning of administrator Georgewilliamherbert has continued to war on the article Guy Fawkes despite that administrator specifically telling him to "leave it as is for a bit, and talk to him on the article talk page and try to work it out to a real consensus".[87] Despite this warning Shankbone has persisted in spamming his photo on the article which it does not belong.

On the talkpage it has been proven that the incident is a direct parody of a scene in the movie V for Vendetta (film) and indeed the people in the image are using the official "V for Vendetta" merchandise masks as sold here. Shankbone claims to have concensus, he is telling a lie. As clearly shown on the talk he is the only one aruging rationale for the inclusion of his image, as shown in WP:CON users are supposed to put across a rationale to show their case. Myself and an administrator have cited rationale against its inclusion.[88] After been disproved on the talkpage about any real relevence to Fawkes and the proving that it to do with the fictional V for Vendetta movie, Shankbone has now taken to refusing to address the content of the messages. Instead of providing an answer to the content, he merely returned to waring against the warning of the admin, without even using an edit summary for his reasons (he even compromised the content of the article by vandalising sources in the content, with no thought for the article.). I even suggested a compromise to move his image to where it belongs; V for Vendetta (film), yet he persists.

Shankbone also took to trolling my messages, he blanked one as shown here and defaced the talk header of the section that I started to push his POV, despite the fact that users are not allowed to edit others messages. He thinks he can do this because he is an established editor, I'd like to see him blocked for warrning against rationale stated consensus, going against the request of an admin and the vandalism of my message as shown in this paragraph. - Yorkshirian (talk) 15:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

(e/c) I have to say that, as a slightly involved party who has been following the progress of this incident, that Yorkshirian has been baiting for a fight the whole time. Calling Shankbone's contribution spam may or may not be a personal attack, but it shows an astonishing lack of civility, and otherwise fails to assume good faith. I don't know if blocking is the right course of action, but certainly someone should issue a stern warning to the user that this kind of behavior doesn't pass. WP:MASTODON and all that. Silly rabbit (talk) 15:29, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Yorkshirian clearly does not understand consensus, and his saying that I'm lying belies the diffs and warnings of others to Yorkshirian: Cirt [89] (who has 7 featured articles under his belt), Silly Rabbit [90], and R. Baley [91]. Yorkshirian has nobody but himself . --David Shankbone 15:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

You're lying Shankbone. Please point out a single place on the talk of the article, where any of them users provide a single rationale to show how its related to Fawkes and not the movie V for Vendetta? Nobody but you has argued a rationale in favour of it, and at this point you have even been disproved in your rationale to the extent that you have taken to closing your eyes and pretending the talkpage and the points on it (all with sources) doesn't exist. I understand consensus fully, may I suggest you read WP:CON and learn what it is? this isn't a strawman vote... anybody is welcome to put forward a rationale, it just so happens that so far you are the only one to put forward one in favour of your image. I have proved you wrong with various sources on the talk and an administrator has told you not to leave it off for now, very clearly. Why is it that you have 0% respect for that admins wishes and went against what he told you? Can you explain that please? You have also failed to explain why you blanked messages and even blanked sources from the article. The diffs I provided in the message above show this very clearly, its not acceptable behaviour. - Yorkshirian (talk) 16:25, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Not only has the rationale been explained on your Talk page, on the Guy Fawkes page, etc., but this goes down to your WP:OWNership issues - When four users see merit in an image, and only you don't, you are not the "gatekeeper" we must pass to change the article. I don't know where you get off that four users have not explained themselves to you as well as you would like. I will let an admin deal with this situation as I am tired of bickering with you about it. --David Shankbone 16:31, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I can't help but thinking if Shankbone's name weren't attached to the image we wouldn't have a problem here. Issues with Shankbone's images have led to far more conflict than any other contributors, the above is case in point. A user has a valid reason the images should be stricken and Shankbone goes to war. Mike Farrell is another, Farrell took the time to send in a better picture of himself to replace Shankbone's and Shankbone went to war. Perhaps we should disallow names in images for some period of time and see if it leads to less contention? 71.112.130.211 (talk) 16:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Comment - I have worked with Shankbone and Yorkshirian before, though on separate articles. It should be pointed out that Yorkshirian has a fairly extensive history of not dealing well with dissent. My earliest contact with him in Robin Hood late last year found us in disagreement over his massive edits and my request and advice that he discuss them beforehand. Before long, he began calling me a 'vandal' - not exactly conduct conducive to professional interaction. I see that the behavior has not abated whatsoever. Calling established editors liars and their contributions spam is deleterious to a positive editing environment.

For me, the deciding factor as to culpability in behavior is the back-and-forth edit summarized by this discussion page Diff wherein Shankbone is altering a section title to make it less inflammatory without surrendering any of the informative value. Shankbone should be commended for this. Yorkshirian has to recognize that he is going to be edited, and if he truly feels that is edits are and should remain unassailable, then perhaps Wikipedia is not the best use of his talents and temperament. When it comes to consensus, sometimes you are the dog and sometimes you are the hydrant. Having been both, I can assure Yorkshirian that consensus can be built anew over time, so long as the argued point isn't of the 'snowball' variety. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 16:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

And as for the anon 71.121's contention that ' Shankbone's images have led to far more conflict than any other contributors', perhaps they should take the time to consider how many images that Shankbone actually contributes to the wiki. One can hardly surg the wiki for an hour without coming across an image file not of Shankbone's creation. I would put his rep up against any other image-uploaders any day of the week and twice on Saturday. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 16:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Yorkshirian does seem to have a temper, but I think he's correct. People wearing Guy Fawkes masks, just like in V for Vendetta, does not belong in his article. It's trivia. Like having photos of people wearing George Bush masks in the George Bush article. But the real issue I think is Shankbone's images. How many times has he been in some sort of conflict over an image? Would there be so much conflict if his names weren't attached? I think there'd be less conflict, but I'm not sure. I don't think Shankbone would be here asking for Yorkshirian to be blocked if the image was uploaded by someone else. Let's give it a try and see. 71.112.130.211 (talk) 17:03, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

This IP User is a banned User and I have asked for a Checkuser to be performed on them. They are banned and they are also a notorious troll of my work, which they are repeating here. --David Shankbone 17:09, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

this whole post was about "personal attacks" from yorkshirian, such as calling shankbone a troll. now shankbone is calling me a troll for suggesting a remedy that might prevent these conflicts? 71.112.130.211 (talk) 17:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Rationale has only been explained or claimed by you in favour of it. One, uno person... that isn't a consensus, thats you. Lets face the facts this has nothing to do with WP:OWN, this is to do with you trying to slap an image on any article you can just because "you took it", regardless of the fact that you've been proven that it doesn't belong on this specific article. Despite the fact that you're the only one who has even attempted to explain a rationale in favour of it and despite the fact that two other people, including an administrator has told you to give it a rest. You care about putting on an image simply because "you took it", you're not interested in improving your article. Notice how once again you dodge all the questions I presented even here? Just because you've been here a while doesn't give you the right to a different set of standards I'm afraid. - Yorkshirian (talk) 16:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Both blocked

Both David Shankbone and Yorkshirian edit warred past 3RR and disruptively edited over at Talk:Guy Fawkes over this. Most annoyingly, they edit-warred over a subsection title and some contents on the talk page.

David certainly knows better and I've issued a 24 hr block to him for the 3RR and disruption. Yorkshirian, coming off an earlier block, should have made a better effort to talk to people constructively, and also avoid the 3RR violation / edit warring on the talk page and other disruptive editing elsewhere. I've blocked him for 48 hrs.

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 18:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I concur with the blocks, and rationale. I would also suggest keeping an eye out for David Shankbone not succumbing to the temptation that an enforced absence of the other party to the dispute might present; in short that they do not revert to their preferred version as there is no-one able to challenge the legitimacy. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:10, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Per discussion on David's talk page, I have unblocked him at this point. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:51, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Requesting block review for User:Decoratrix

When I was going through the the helpme pages I noticed this: [92] user was blocked for a time of 1 week for "vandalism", yet this user's recent edits seemed to be good faith attempts to improve the encyclopedia, rather than damage it. In addition, even if there were some edits that I can't "see" (deleted edits), to be blocked for one week with no warnings seems a bit extreme. Vivio Testarossa^{Talk Who} 16:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

That block does seem a little stern to me, but have you brought this up with the blocking admin? That is normally the first thing to do in such cases. — Coren ^(talk) 16:13, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The user has been unblocked by another administrator. The apparent reason for blocking was that the edited the article of Barack Obama, an American candidate for President. The edit had some negative information about his voting record which had a reference cited. Administrative abuse or not? Archtransit (talk) 16:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

We could probably wait for Bearian to comment before speculating on his motives for the block. --Onorem♠Dil 16:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

(ec)This could very well be "no administrative abuse". However, if an administrator blocks an editor who has made a controversial but cited edit in a political article just prior to block, fairness dictates that we examine that political censorship is not an issue and the real reason for blocking. I don't know much about whether this source is a reliable source of not (WP:RS). Isn't this politician running against John McCain for U.S. President? Archtransit (talk) 17:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Decoratrix was accused of vandalism by User:Nuclearj in this edit summary after making these two edits to Barack Obama, both of which Nuclearj reverted. Decoratrix was shortly thereafter blocked for 1 week by User:Bearian with "vandalism" given as the reason in the block summary. No warnings were issued. The block has now been removed by User:Rodhullandemu. My opinion is that the blocking administrator does not need to be consulted before removing such a blatantly improper block, but should be informed as a courtesy that his block has been removed. Mike R (talk) 16:55, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh. I actually didn't think I'd unblocked, realising that I should contact User:Bearian first, but I have left a message for him and explained on User:Decoratrix' talk page. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 16:59, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I am agreeable to this resolution. I blocked because it was tagged as being vandalism by a Bot, it appeared to be a case of vandalism, to prevent further vandalism to a FA, and due to the user's prior recent history of warnings. Further information is on the block log. I have alerted the editor to WP:BLP. I probably should have made a test-4 warning first. In the interest of disclosure, I have made an edit or two to the article Barack Obama. Bearian (talk) 17:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC) FYI, here are the two diffs: [93] and [94]. Bearian (talk) 17:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

On third look, this was too stern, as a final warning or very short block would have been better. I am sorry for the incident. Bearian (talk) 18:15, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Nuclearj is not a bot, can you explain where this user's edits were "tagged as being vandalism by a Bot"? Also, bots can have false positives. Also, where is the prior history of warnings? I see no warnings on the user's talk page. —Random832 19:26, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I wrote that I looked a third time. I made an honest mistake and disclosed any interest. I apologized here, at another admin's talk page, and on the user's talk page. Let's get back to building a 'pedia. Bearian (talk) 21:12, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Blanking this page

Resolved

 – Persistent vandal-only IP blocked by Vassyana —Travis^talk 18:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Someone want to take a look at this user: 66.168.119.50? He just blanked this page and when I went to warn him, I saw all the warnings on that page and thought I should just ask an admin to take care of it. Tex (talk) 16:10, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

(editing conflict) Next time you could be proactive. It's good practice : ) If the IP is still active and continues to blank after a warning (level 3 or final), then you or someone else can report him/her to WP:AIV. Looks as though they've already been warned. and blocked Wisdom89 _{(T / ^C)} 16:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Blanking one's own talk page is permissible, unless it's a shared IP. It's practice; a proposal to use punitive measures against blanking one's own talk page failed to gain consensus, and probably won't. (Of course, this is a bit controversial.) Gracenotes^T § 16:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

It's an IP with a long history of sporadic vandalism, including page blanking. They didn't blank their talk page, they blanked this page (AN/I).[95] Vassyana (talk) 16:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Oops, misread. Sorry about that :) Gracenotes^T § 17:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Done. IP blocked from anonymous editing. {{anonblock}} noted on talk page. Vassyana (talk) 16:33, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Vassyana. Apparently my original post wasn't clear. I'm glad you understood what I was trying to say. Tex (talk) 16:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Wait, what? Why has it been blocked for six months? It blanked the incidents noticeboard once - which was of course quickly reverted - and, prior to blanking, had not edited for almost a month. Six months seems, at best, excessive. --Iamunknown 01:17, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't have a strong opinion on this, but according to wannabekate, that IP has 165 mainspace edits and every one of them is vandalism. If it were an account, it would definitely be indef blocked as a vandalism only account. Tex (talk) 15:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

RfA withdrawal of Snocrates

Resolved

by WJBscribe

I made the decisions that the RfA hadn't a chance at all to succeed, so I closed the RfA as unsuccessful;

I've got some implications that because the RfA still has over 50% support, I shouldn't have closed it, so I report the issue here for more insight.

I still believe it's practically impossible for the RfA to succeed. _→AzaToth 19:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Given the evidence that has come out as a result of the RfA, I think you are probably right in doing so. Closing it now would seem to cause much less drama than leaving it open until its scheduled conclusion. Ioeth _{(talk contribs friendly)} 19:03, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

• I feel the candidate should have had an opportunity to explain things before his RfA was closed. Given the position it was in (under no consensus rather than failing), an administrator should not be closing it, and a crat could evaluate the situation based on their strong experience in the field. Ryan Postlethwaite 19:06, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

update: reopened by 'crat. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 19:09, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I've reverted this action. I don't believe RfAs should ever be closed where the candidate has the support of the majority of participants. Even bureaucrats are limited to judging community consensus, not second guessing how things will proceed or judging the seriousness of the allegation against the candidate. Such allegations have been made and not comfirmed in the past - for example Gmaxwell's belief about Majorly was not later supported by the findings of other checkusers. Snocrates has yet t have an apportunity to respond to the checkuser results. I have decided in light of this to suspend the RfA until he has an opportunity to do so. It can then be up to him whether he withdraws it, or asks for it to resume based on his response to the sockpuppetry case. WjBscribe 19:11, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

When did policy change that non-crats could close RFA's other than obviously trolling/bad faith/etc? That used to be pretty seriously frowned on. It's easy for the namespace balance oppose crowd to start piling on the opposes until a voice of reason points out the error of their ways and things turn around. --B (talk) 19:15, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I clearly don't hang around RfA enough, I had no idea what mainspace balance is, much less that it apparently attracts a crowd. (I googled it.) Relata refero (talk) 19:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Non-bureaucrats can close RFA's, and/but they have to be at least as careful as the bureaucrats when doing so. --Kim Bruning (talk) 20:11, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

My impression was that non-bureaucrats should close RfA's with the same caution as non-admins closing AfD's - i.e. ensure that the situation is clear and unambiguous, and that the action is unlikely to be controversial. UltraExactZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 21:24, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

My impression was that all editors closing anything should exercise caution. I'm frankly disturbed by User:WJBScribe's comment above "Even bureaucrats are limited to judging community consensus....". Emphasis on "even". For some odd reason I've never felt the 'crats where better than admins, same as admins aren't better than non-admins etc. etc. Pedro :  Chat  21:33, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Aherm, I think you're reading my comment a little broadly. Outside the content of closing RfAs (and renaming users/flagging Bots), bureaucrats clearly have the same role as every other user. My comment was limited to the context of closing RfAs, where the community mandates bureaucrats to close RfAs, exercising their judgment as to whether a consensus is present. My point is that this community mandate does not permit bureaucrats to override community consensus. I was clarifying that this wasn't a question of "You did something only a bureaucrat should do" but more one of "You did something not even a bureaucrat should do". Hence where the "even" comes in. I hope that clarifies things. WjBscribe 23:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this. Also, where WJBScribe states "not second guessing how things will proceed or judging the seriousness of the allegation against the candidate", I would correct that to: all editors are expected to predict future community consensus in all actions, and are explicitly required to judge every comment based on the level of seriousness. How else can we possibly have a consensus system? --Kim Bruning (talk) 22:24, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

My point Kim, is that if I want to judge the seriousness of the accusation I should participate in the RfA by expressing my support or opposition. If bureaucrats start deciding RfA outcomes based solely on their personal opinions of how serious the oppose rationales, they aren't assessing consensus but making a value judgment of their own. Of course each comment must be assessed for its weight but not in a vaccuum - in the context of the discussion it was in. But saying "this user has been found by a checkuser to have engaged in sockpuppetry - that is so serious a concern that this RfA is bound to fail" would, in my opinion, be overstepping the boundaries of merely assessing consensus. As to predicting future community consensus, I defy you to point to anyone capable of doing that accurately. Better to let that consensus form than try to second guess it. WjBscribe 23:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry might be ok, but disruptive sockpuppetry == instant fail, no matter what anyone says after that point. Giving the bit to someone who engages in that kind of activity is ...probably not a good idea, so I would expect a bureaucrat to close that discussion, if after some amount of time the incident can't be explained. --Kim Bruning (talk) 04:08, 15 February 2008 (UTC) So if you were saying "at least give the guy some time to defend themselves", then sure, I agree. :-) Just so long as we agree that if the defence isn't forthcoming, they simply fail the RFA, even if it's a unanimous 100% support before that point.

• Guys, the bureaucrats have been trusted by the community to look after the RfA process. They have been asked to judge the consensus on RfA's and basically keep an eye on the whole process. It's their job to close RfAs where there's even small controversy with them. Non admins should only close RfAs where there is a clear consensus that they are going to fail i.e. far more opposes than neutrals. In this case, there was still a greater number of supports and the candidate had no opportunity of offer an explanation to the allegations. It should not have been closed by an admin and WJBscribe was right to revert, and suspend the RfA pending clarification from the candidate. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:07, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Cut-and-paste problems

This report was made to AIV, but I thought it important to move here, as it looks like a serial problem.

• Darbel2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - On Division No. 1, Manitoba;. Systematically copying to wikipedia http://www.communityprofiles.mb.ca/maps/census/index.html - has been warned and ignored it. The longer he carries on, the more we have to delete ;). JPilborough^{-Leave Message} 20:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I looked at some of the editor's other contributions, and it appears that the majority of them are cut-and-pastes from Canadian government and provincial government websites. As far as I know, there are copyright problems with that use unless specific approval is given. I don't have the time to really dig into this right now, but we're talking about dozens of potential copyvios from this editor. Could someone take a look at this, please, ASAP? Tony Fox (arf!) 21:05, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The website copyright information is pretty clear: http://www.communityprofiles.mb.ca/disclaimer.html I'm going to delete all 15 Manitoba Division articles created by this user under WP:CSD#G12. He only created one article after being warned which is probably when he got the new message banner and appears to have ceased - so a block is unnecesary. CIreland (talk) 00:21, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Trying to avoid 3RR for gratuitous gender comments in Code Pink

24.34.131.179 has twice inserted "a transgender peace activist" into the Code Pink article, following text already identifying an individual as an activist. Gender identification is not relevant to a political article, but I have reverted it twice and don't want to violate 3RR.

On the Talk: Code Pink page, 24.34.131.179 has overwritten some of my response and is being generally confrontational. Clearly, anything I say will have little effect on someone so intent on having his/her/its way. Might I ask an Admin to review these actions and determine if they qualify as vandalism, and, as such, a 3RR exception?

Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 21:37, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I have commented at the article talkpage. I suggest you form a consensus that including one aspect of the individuals background, one that appears irrelevant, is inappropriate. While there is just the two of you (plus my opinion, for what it is worth) it is a content dispute. Kudos for standing back from 3RR and requesting outside help. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:37, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Another look

Would another admin or two take a look at the recent block involving User talk:David Shankbone? Specifically, I'm quite confident in my assessment that modifying the section heading another person added to a talk page over their objections is just like having edited one of their comments, and is (1) bad form, and (2) certainly bad to edit-war over. But Shankbone doesn't seem to believe this. Also, Newyorkbrad (talk · contribs) offered an opinion on the situation but then hasn't responded to a note I left him. Mangojuice^talk 22:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I haven't looked too deeply into the context of what these people were quarreling over, but in general I'd disagree with your assessment of the section heading issue. Changing section headings is not so uncommon, it can be part of legitimate refactoring. Since section headings, as a structuring textual device, are not really part of one particular post, but are designed to be a shared feature structuring all the following thread, they really cease to "belong" to the individual editor who first posted them, and become more like a common property of all the users of the talk page. Especially when a section heading is felt to be offensive or needlessly inflammatory, replacing it with something more neutral seems legitimate to me. At least, I did it myself just the other day.[96] Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I previously concurred with the block at an earlier section (here); DS ought to know by now that simply getting into revert wars is inappropriate, no matter how justified he believes his position to be (and that has also been a bone of contention in the past). LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

As I just noted above, I unblocked David a bit ago. I left a fairly long message on his talk page.

While it's not necessarily wrong to refactor talk page comments, that's not what happened. The first revert cycle can legitimately be seen as that, but then David and Yorkshirian simply see-sawed the contents back and forth several times. It was classic revert war / edit war behavior, though I had apparently miscounted the 3RR check / time period.

I even agree with David that the original section heading was unnecessarily provocative. The problem was David getting down in the dirt and fighting over it, rather than calling for help and having someone uninvolved try to reason with him or bring the fifty-ton mop of civility down on them. That rapidly degenerated into both sides having done wrong. Who started it is slightly relevant (and accounted for a longer initial block), but both sides clearly misbehaved.

More of my comments can be found on User talk:David Shankbone

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:57, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Warbringer47 (talk · contribs)

• I have reason to believe that Warbringer47 (talk · contribs) is an incarnation of an anonymous user who has been repeatedly blocked for revert warring on Sol Badguy, Ryu (Street Fighter) and Guile (Street Fighter) and has been attempting to harass me. (See [97], [98], [99] (Sol Badguy), [100], [101], [102] (Ryu), [103], [104] (Guile), [105], [106] [107] (his vandalism to my talk page). He has a long history as an anonymous user and I don't think he should get a pass now that he has an account. JuJube (talk) 22:43, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
  • And he's revert warring again. JuJube (talk) 15:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

important

I filed this report Wikipedia:Abuse_reports/68.90.62.244 on 3 Feb 2008 regarding the long term vandal user:Mmbabies. Is there thing the Foundation or Mr. Jimbo can do to speed up the process of getting law enforcement involved to prosecute this joker. He has been harassing people for over a year since Feb 12 2006 ; he has made death threats against VIPS, and wikipedia users. Can someone inform the board of the Foundation or Mike Godwin, the lawyer . I think a admin needs to see the abuse report. Thank for your time Rio de oro (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 22:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Can someone respond Rio de oro (talk) 01:07, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there's much we can do, until someone responds to the abuse e-mails. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 03:30, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

89.60.210.122 (talk · contribs)

Resolved

 – User warned

They started with Katherine Heigl and later went to Category:German-Americans and Category:Americans of German descent. Other odd edits include Leopold Katzenstein and David Letterman. Not really sure if this is vandalism or just a POV or something else. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 23:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Their Talk page is a red link. Try talking first. Corvus cornix_talk 00:36, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Second that, maybe just communicating with the user will solve the problem without the need of administrators. Tiptoety ^talk 00:56, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I welcomed the IP user, and noted WP:POV. Bearian (talk) 01:02, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

User with multiple IPs keeps deleting the same material

The Illuminati article is having difficulty with a persistant vandal. I reported the situation to ANI-Vandalism, but they have said the situation is not blaitant enough and referred me here. This is the situation... On January 31, an IP user:189.30.110.198 deleted some material from the article without explanation... I reverted and requested discussion on the talk page (see:http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Illuminati&diff=next&oldid=181216241 this dif.). The IP responded with a rather strange edit: here, which led to the following chain of edits and reverts: [108], [109], [110], [111] and [112] ... note the change of IP address... same prefix though. At this point the editor (logged in as User:Edictorwikicentral) did respond on the talk page... seehere. To that point, I would not have called these edits vandalism. We had a content dispute, which several editors attempted to resolve in the appropriate way. However, the removal of the content has continued - to the point where it now is vandalism... The editor simply removes the content with no explanation (see: here, here, and most recently here.) In each case we reverted and tagged the user page with a vandalism warning... but because he/she uses a slightly different IP address each time, the vandalism warnings that have been mounting up are defused. Because he/she only reverts occasionally, it isn't a case for ANI-Vandalism or 3rr.

I doubt it would be appropriate to simply block the entire 189.30... IP range, but is there anything that can be done to convince this vandal to stop deleting the content? Blueboar (talk) 03:58, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, but my suggestion would be to request semi-protection to keep the IPs from editing so you can focus on the content dispute without interference from users who aren't logged in. --clpo13_(talk) 05:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Guess it already is semi-protected. Never mind. --clpo13_(talk) 05:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Semi-protection helps... but does not solve the problem. The IP editor in question just waits for the protection to be lifted and repeats his/her deletion. Blueboar (talk) 13:50, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

User:AkiKimura99

Resolved

 – blocked by me. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

AkiKimura99 (talk · contribs) is repeatedly removing an unsourced tag from the article they're working on. I gave them four warnings, including a final warning, and they keep removing the warnings from their talk page, which is okay, except that looking through the history of their talk page, they've already had a final warning for the same behavior about a month ago. They never use Talk pages, never use edit summaries, and never address the concerns of other editors. And now they've given themself a whole slew of barnstars, signing them with other editors' names. Corvus cornix_talk 05:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Took care of it. A 31 hour block is in place to get his attention. If he returns with teh same behavior, let me or other admins know, and it will be replaced with a longer one. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

This user copied a barnstar that I awarded to User:Nlu and placed it on his talk page. For the record, I have no idea who AkiKimura99 is and never awarded him any barnstars. Grandmaster (talk) 05:44, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I removed all of the bogus barnstars from the talk page. All taken care of. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:45, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

The one from Nlu was legit. I've restored that one. Corvus cornix_talk 05:48, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Continued harassment by Propol

I have getting tagged by this out of control editor with delusions of socks on his head. I have warned him four times, and he continues to harass me with is war of tagging my my user space with is sock puppet BS. [113] [114] [115] [116]

If he think I'm a sock then let him file, but just unilaterally placing tags on editors talk pages is just a form of bulling and harassment. I think someone should stop this rude and childish punk. Propol appears [117]to have a long, and uncontrolled reputation of this and needs to be disciplined as to the rules. This child is out of control?Oldschooltool (talk) 07:07, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree, this appears to be in bad faith. If the user felt strongly about his/her accusations, then they should have filed a sockpuppet case involving your conduct with a list of diffs as evidence. Since this has not been done, it could be construed as trolling (at the very least). Did you attempt to mediate the situation on his talk page beyond the level 4 warning you gave him/her? Wisdom89 _{(T / ^C)} 07:23, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I have left a message on the user's talk page regarding the situation. Wisdom89 _{(T / ^C)} 07:27, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Urgent! Sri Lanka - moved / hacked

This article has somehow been moved/hacked to a page entitled Sri Lanka - hacked by Bleezhulk. This user has been vandalizing a number of pages in a similar way, see [118]. This user needs to be blocked.--Gregalton (talk) 09:21, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

User blocked by Riana, articles moved back and deleted redirects created by the moves. Thanks for the heads up! -- ReyBrujo (talk) 09:28, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

For immediate attention

Could we get a block on this IP immediately. User talk:86.134.94.232. See these edits:

[119] [120] [121] [122] [123]

I tried a level three abuse warning, but this just escalated things. I hope this is the correct place to report such problems. Cheers Nouse4aname (talk) 09:52, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Blocked. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:57, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks very much. Nouse4aname (talk) 10:04, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

New IP!

It seems a broader block may be required. Is this possible?

User talk:86.134.94.204

[124]

Nouse4aname (talk) 10:09, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Iced him. east.718 at 10:18, February 15, 2008

It's a dynamic IP from a large block owned by a British ISP, so I'm afraid a range block wouldn't be feasible. Please just bring it up on WP:AIV if it acts up again. (Tell them it's a block-evading repeat offender so they won't be asking you for prior warnings and stuff.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:21, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks all. Nouse4aname (talk) 10:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

has received two lasts warning

Resolved

 – User blocked indef.

User:Bubbleshum received a last warning about making nonsense pages and he deleted it from his talk page [125], and has now received *another* last warning for making yet another nonsense page with related thematic. First page was John Iliston, and second page is Ilistonitis, and both were speedily deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Enric Naval (talk • contribs) 11:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

He's already blocked --Enric Naval (talk) 11:21, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Numbered user

Resolved. Two main protagonists given short blocks to cool off. ^Khukri 15:50, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

This user has been changing with original research or simply non at all a great number pages.80.78.74.88.Megistias (talk) 11:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC) The user continues [126]Despite being warned that what he is doing it against the rules.Megistias (talk) 11:44, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

This can be handled at Talk:Ioannis Kapodistrias. No need for ANI. (Although another pair of eyes from an uninvolved admin might be useful, now that it's here.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:52, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

You can't say "see discussion" in the article (see what discussion?). You need to cite|cite a reliable source so your claim could be verified. El_C 11:55, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

That was, I think, Mavronjoti's mistake, not Megistias. Anyway, it's reached the stage where we need an uninvolved admin to swing the trout over at that article. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:00, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Since they both have names that start with M, I'm unable to distinguish between theM. El_C 12:01, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I cite sources and rules this person doesnt.I am not the offenderMegistias (talk) 12:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Lol.

• Mavronjoti = Albanian, brings questionable sources, has also been editing as IP, has breached 3RR
• Megistias = Greek, defender of article status quo, did two reverts, is under revert parole.
• Tassoskessaris (D.K.) = Greek, defender of article status quo, has been unnice to Mavronjoti.

Makes it clearer? Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:11, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

i thought the limit was automatic!.I suck but i did defend the article!Megistias (talk) 12:18, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

"Defending" works differently. Defending is done through friendly, relaxed, patient discussion and through "writing for the enemy". Ever tried that? Writing for the enemy means, you assume an active role taking the opponents cues, actively check how much of their claimed sources may in fact contain a kernel of truth, and then work that into the text, on your own accord. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

You that they just remove the secondary sources and then incite an edit war.I took the bait last time.Megistias (talk) 12:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

User trying to use Jimbo comment as a club

Before this gets too ugly, I want to make sure a few uninvolved admins start keeping an eye on a situation that appears to be developing. Jimbo made a comment on 7 February in which he stated:

I would like to offer my opinion. The project to excise all references to GNU/Linux is deeply POV and wrong. It should be reverted completely and totally as quickly as possible. Virtually all references to Linux should be references to GNU/Linux. I am certainly unaware of any community consensus which would support the draconian and absurd campaign that has been conducted against the correct naming convention.

Since that comment was made, a relatively new user, Lightedbulb (talk · contribs), has started an editing campaign to put "GNU" in front of every instance of "Linux" he can find. More so, he is trying to proclaim the rule of Jimbo in his edit comments with statements such as, "GNU/Linux has been confirmed as the correct naming convention for Wikipedia by its founder Jimmy Wales." He is doing this without prior discussion and is not responding well to talk page discussions trying to get him to slow down and discuss the changes. He is taking the stand of "Jimbo said it therefore it is the law".

Since that time, at least two other editors, Gronky (talk · contribs) and Bald Eeagle (talk · contribs), have jumped on the wagon and started using the same sort of edit comments.

Personally, when someone says "my opinion" I take it in a different context than "this is a Wikipedia rule". This editor runs the risk of making it appear that Wikipedia is driven more by the whims of its founder than the consensus developed by the community. Some help in explaining that this is a consensus driving project is appreciated. --StuffOfInterest (talk) 12:46, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

"OMG! St. iGNUcious strikes again!"

Note that Jimbo could be said to have something of a conflict of interest on this particular topic too. ;-) (look at the page footer, or here) --Kim Bruning (talk) 13:04, 15 February 2008 (UTC) OMG! He's fallen into the evil clutches of Saint iGNUcious!

Now they think Lightedbulb is using a sock to get around 3RR Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Bald Eeagle. Sarah 13:11, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

And, in fact, the Wikipedia rules do say the opposite; whether "GNU/Linux" is "more correct" than "Linux" (an argument I do not want to enter), "Linux" is by far the most common english name for the group of operating systems driven by a Linux kernel, regardless of the presence of GNU tools— and therefore the one that should be used. — Coren ^(talk) 13:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Good grief, we even have an article GNU/Linux naming controversy. —Moondyne 13:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

They were edit warring on that page, too, Moondyne. "Because Jimbo said!" :) Sarah 13:42, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I am undoing these edits on sight. The essence of Jimbo's opinion, IMO, was that creating an organized project to expunge the name GNU/Linux was inappropriate. Gronky and the others are engaging in the exact same inappropriate behavior in the opposite direction. But, y'know, we all remember the scene from Life of Brian with the gourd and the shoe. Nandesuka (talk) 13:49, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I am undoing the inappropriate work of the organised project. No more. --Gronky (talk) 14:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

This is getting very disruptive - see Gronky's edits for some more (many haven't been reverted). --Iamunknown 14:14, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

One (presumably rainy) weekend, User:Thumperward went through a few hundred articles which mentioned "GNU/Linux" and changed them all to "Linux". A few people objected, but no one had equal time to undo this consensusless spree. I would call it an "edit flood". I've been meaning to undo those edits ever since, and others have also expressed an interest. Jimbo's comment is just the final motivation to actually start. There was never any justification or consensus to strip Wikipedia of "GNU/Linux" in the first place. User:Thumperward's campaign completely ignored and undermined the community process that makes Wikipedia work. So my 15 or so edits today are not a campaign, they're just a partial rollback of an edit flood that should never have been. --Gronky (talk) 14:27, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Well with people like YOU (Prolog, StuffOfInterest, Nandesuka and a couple of others) acting here as the owners of the last word on what stays in wikipedia it's not surprising to see why in many Higher Educational Institutions the use of Wikipedia is discouraged and in some cases even forbidden.

With arguments such as to use the most common or most popular words to name things you are not helping to build an Encyclopedia but a kind of blog that you use to express your personal preferences. I will not get into a lengthy demonstration of this disdain of Wikipedia by the the serious international academic community. But for anyone here who has a doubt about that just go to the nearest University and talk to any professor to see what they think of Wikipedia as it is thanks to you guys, wonderful old seasoned editors.

The image wikipedia is getting is one of an outlet that is even used by corporation executives that pay people to edit anything that concerns them or their interests. By the way I can say I am not affiliated to any organization or company that sells any product or service related to GNU/Linux or as you so passionately prefer just "Linux". I don't get one cent from my efforts. I wanted just to share what I know with people seeking information.

The aim has never been to deny the Linux kernel but rather to add. Now your aim seems to be to hide the fact from many users that to be able to use this OS GNU/Linux there is complete freedom to the user and that he/she does not need the services of any company to supply him with the software as happens with proprietary sotfware. It is clear that as the creators of the "Open Source" initiative declared they wanted that what was until then known as "Free Sotfware" became more acceptable to the business community and to investors. Thus there is a systematic pattern by many people to omit the mention of GNU which has as its main message the idea of freedom. Freedom is not what interests "open source" companies such as O'Reilly which by the way is one of the main publishers of books with the Linux title to refer to the entire OS. In a well known documentary one can even see Linux Torvalds wearing and O'Reilly's T-shirt with the words "Open Source". As one of the editors who deleted my contribution said AdrianTM and to whom Prolog readily seconded the reason for eliminating GNU is that he hates the idea of "Free" Software and Richard Stallman. Just as Linus Torvalds does. Well if that is not POV then what?

It is a pity that this idea of a free Wikipedia Encyclopedia will end up as a failure to become an accurate and reliable source of knowledge and information. For that Microsoft Encarta, a proprietary product, will be a far better choice.

Lightedbulb (talk) 15:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

"The shoe is his sign! Let us follow his example. Let us, like Him, hold up one shoe and let the other be upon our foot, for this is His sign, that all who follow Him shall do likewise." Nandesuka (talk) 15:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I am SO tired of arguments that include the phrase or likeness "well, THIS is the reason academics don't like Wikipedia!". I have some great ideas for what to do with the shoe when arguments like that one are made... - Philippe | Talk 19:45, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

If you disagree with the common name arguments, maybe you should try and get the guideline which says to use common names changed instead? --Haemo (talk) 20:17, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Inverness

Resolved

 – all articles fixed, RM can be opened for future move requests

Hi all. I'm requesting that someone with admin privileges restore the page now at Inverness, Highland to Inverness. This is a controversial move made in the last hour, but moving editor User:Laurel Bush has already edited the previous location Inverness, redirecting it to Inverness (disambiguation), so that no editor without sysop privileges can reverse the unilateral move. I don't think it's unfair to request that the page be restored, so that Laurel Bush can then open a WP:RM if she desires. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 15:56, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

• Moved back to original locations. Left a note on the talkpage to open a RM, though I'm not sure why we'd want to move this article now. Black Kite 16:09, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

<edit conflict> Having a look, the disambig page isn't a bad idea except it's being used for all things pertaining to the various Inverness's, and not different types of Inverness's themselves. Also the page I think with naming convention it should be Inverness, Scotland not Inverness, Highland. However I see you haven't left a message on the editors talk page prior to bringing it here, and only a message on the disambig page and discussion hasn't been thoroughly explored but will look to move them back. And it was done as I was typing. ^Khukri 16:11, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

• I've move-protected it until a discussion takes place, if one does. As a general point, we usually don't use a qualifier for a city if one is by far the most well-known, which I think the Scottish city is. Black Kite 16:15, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. A similar course of actions had been taken on Nairn yesterday I think. Again, the irreversible action was taken first, then a notice was posted on the Scottish wikipedians' noticeboards. The move ... unnecessary and controversial from the responses, involved the cutting and pasting of text, and has left hundreds of wikilinks pointing at a dab page (now at Nairn). In both the cases of Nairn and Inverness, the pre-move page appears to be clear primary usage ... though moves in both took place before this matter had been examined by the community. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:02, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

• I've moved the pages and fixed the links, problem is now that the history is at Nairn (government and administration boundaries) rather than Nairn after the article was split. I've got to go out now, but I'll fix this when I get back. Black Kite 18:42, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

It's a nightmare ... took a while to work out what happened! It fairness to User:Simply south, who did the cut and paste split, the split wouldn't have been so bad if he'd chosen to make Nairn, Scotland (now thankfully back at Nairn) the successor of (pre-move) Nairn rather than the other one! Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:50, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

• And done. Black Kite 19:53, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

How strange...

Someone please take a look at this strange/suspicious upload of 10 Feb...

• Image:Jaso2.pdf (note the suffix)

The .pdf is not linked to by any article and the upload constitutes the user's only edit.
Paranoid snot that I am, I wouldn't recommend opening the file. I hear it screaming "exploit".

-- Fullstop (talk) 16:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

It seems harmless. It's a text about a location in India that was apparently meant as an article. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

More V-Dash socks

User:Supertoolbox is going around and changing the userpages of User:V-Dash socks to make it appear as if they were Jeske socks. Anyone want to handle this? shoy 17:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Blocked. But, we should ignore these to whatever extent possible. I see no value in bothering to create userpages for throwaway troll accounts. Revert, block, ignore. Creating a collection of trophies only encourages them. Friday (talk) 17:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Supertoolbox

User's talk page has a personal attack against Friday and Jeske... dont know how this started or who's sock this user is, but it should be investigated. Queerbubbles (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 17:39, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Trolling username

Resolved

 – User hard-blocked —Wknight94 (talk) 17:44, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to get User:UntimelyMaroon blocked for the trolling username. Let me explain. Earlier today a new user showed up at Allegations of state terrorism committed by the United States, under the name of User:Ultrastoopid. This username is a clear jab at User:Ultramarine, who is a regular editor of the article. Furthermore, the user's edits were heavily critical of Ultramarine's contributions. I had Ultrastoopid blocked by a report to WP:AIVU. Moments later, the same user (no need for an request for checkuser per WP:SNOW) showed up under the new name User:UntimelyMaroon. Once again, this username is (in my mind) a clear violation of the username policy, since it targets the editor User:Ultramarine with the explicit goal of being offensive and disruptive. However, Slackr, the usernamevio admin, did not see the name as a transparent violation. He/she recommended that I send the complaint through a different channel. Silly rabbit (talk) 17:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good to me - nicely explained. I hard-blocked UntimelyMaroon. —Wknight94 (talk) 17:44, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

BetaCommandBot, reprogramming suggestion

I am increasingly seeing how this bot works through its invasions of my watchlist and watching the results. What appears to be happening is that images with no rationale and images with an attempted rationale, but no article link, are tagged as being completely the same, i.e. deletabble in 7 days, i.e. here: [127]. I believe this is unnacceptable, as the cases of attempted rationales would clearly pass muster in a court, which is what the policy aims to meet. In order to decrease the stress and anger this bot is causing every time it goes on a 20,000 tag run, it should be reprogrammed to only run a few hundred images at a time, and to dump the resulting tagged images into an expert clearing house, before placing a huge warning and endless spamming of talk pages, only some of which are appropriate, so that images can be screened into the obvious 2 categories here, non-compliance full stop and in need of time and attention, and non-compliance with the bot's specification, but fixable in 10 seconds without stress and alarm by experienced editors, and the consequent uneccessary loss of images/editors. This would also increase the accuracy of the bot process as a whole itself, as the bot can be defeated easily by putting a gibberish rationale, as long as it contains the appropriate number of links. I know time/numbers is a factor, so I suggest images in the clearing house not given any attention in 7 days are then tagged and users warned as usual, irregardless. The clearing house can be accessed by anyone, in a collaborative effort that WP is supposed to be. MickMacNee (talk) 18:08, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

You do realize we have almost 300,000 non-free images? If it only did 500 per day, it would take about a year and a half to go through all the images we currently have. And that assumes that there are people willing to spend hours per day going through the images and fixing minor errors. Mr.Z-man 18:19, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

And you have assumed every single image present is in error, which they are not. MickMacNee (talk) 18:56, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

It would be better if changes were made to the upload process that required the use of the FUR template, which makes it clear when there is anything missing that it must be added. The problem is at the beginning of the process and with the uploaders. The bot is just pointing out the mistakes. Lara❤Love 18:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

That is not a reason to not change the bot as described above. Pick a random sample of tagged images, this is not purely a new image problem. MickMacNee (talk) 18:56, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

That actually probably makes the situation worse. Don't know if it still holds true but the license list used to contain licenses which were invalid for use on wikipedia, such images quickly got deleted. Why would we do this? Simply we want people to be honest about the license, not just use something which works. So user uploads image, select FU as a "license" is forced to enter all sorts of stuff they don't understand, ah what the hell PD it is then... --81.104.39.63 (talk) 19:28, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I did just noticed uploading two images a second ago that (unless it's the advanced wikEd editor that put it there) that the non-free rationale template is automatically inserted into the rationale edit area for image uploading. --MASEM 19:40, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

It was inserted a couple of months ago. Remember the Dot did the programming and either I or him suggested it at the Upload talk page and I believe VP-Prop or VP-Tech. MBisanz ^talk 19:58, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

If you are getting spammed messages from BCBot on your talkpage it is because you are doing it wrong. The images are supposed to have a machine-readable rationale template, and the bot tags images that do not. The purpose is not to be sufficient for court, Wikimedia copyright liability for images is not the primary issue. Please do not create new threads for BetaCommandBot when there are already half a dozen on WP:AN and threads from this board have been moved there recently. Avruch ^T 20:11, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

La dii da

Resolved

 – indef blocked

Brand-new account, only edits are to blank arbcom pages. Possibly a sockpuppet? —Random832 18:18, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

FYI, user was blocked within minutes of the blanking edits. —Wknight94 (talk) 18:48, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Request edit summary change with less offensive comment

Request that an admin kindly remove these WP:ICA "vandalism" comments from edit summaries here andhere. Thanks, JGHowes ^talk - 20:00, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Admins cannot edit edit summaries. Sorry! Metros (talk) 20:02, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

An oversight could remove the revisions? --The Helpful One ^(Review) 20:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

They could but I highly doubt that they'd consider this a needed removal. They generally only do this for personal information being revealed; not a bad-faith edit summary. Metros (talk) 20:07, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, if we oversighted mean edit summaries, we'd be at it all day. --Haemo (talk) 20:10, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Spamming and threats

I caught an anonymous user adding inappropriate links to contextflexed.com here and here. Now Contextflexed showed up and not only readded the links, but threated me here saying he will be forced to out your identity. Stop headhunting me or else. IrishGuy ^talk 20:23, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

SA and WP:HARASSMENT/WP:OVERSIGHT

User:ScienceApologist has googled my user name and is insisting on posting an off-wiki link that reveals an off-wiki pseudonym. A clear violation of WP:OVERSIGHT and WP:HARASSMENT. Can someone please put a stop to this? Ronnotel (talk) 20:28, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Dana4

Disruptive single-purpose account, possible sockpuppet. Edit-warring on Homeopathy, which is under probation. I have deleted the copyrighted image they uploaded but am not sure if they should be blocked at present. Comments? Tim Vickers (talk) 20:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)