Talk:September 11 attacks

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Quotation

I hope I'm putting this discussion in the appropriate place on the page. If not, feel free to move it. Anyway, VegitaU and I disagree on a point and I wanted to see what others think. In the memorial section, there is a quotation. I like the version of the quotation that includes the name of the person that said it:

In addition, pictures were placed all over Ground Zero. Mark Sigmund described it by saying, "In the nearby area, you can’t get away from faces of innocent victims who were killed. Their pictures are everywhere, on phone booths, street lights, walls of subway stations. Everything reminded me of a huge funeral, people quiet and sad, but also very nice. Before, New York gave me a cold feeling; now people were reaching out to help each other.”

VegitaU prefers the version with no attribution:

In addition, pictures were placed all over Ground Zero. A witness described being unable to "get away from faces of innocent victims who were killed. Their pictures are everywhere, on phone booths, street lights, walls of subway stations. Everything reminded me of a huge funeral, people quiet and sad, but also very nice. Before, New York gave me a cold feeling; now people were reaching out to help each other.”

The reason I like the first one better is that (1) I don't like it when people quote me without using my name. (I've had this happen.) I'm sure Mark Sigmund wouldn't like it either (2) If I were writing an essay or report, I would prefer to have the name of the person who said the quote and I would prefer to have the full quotation so that I could change it to suit my essay.

I just dislike anonymous quotes, because Wikipedia has an anonymous quote and then someone else quotes Wikipedia and someone else quotes that and pretty soon no one knows how to find out who originally said the quote. When I look up a quote on a Web site and it says, "anonymous" that bugs me.

But if most people agree with VegitaU, I will go along with that, because I believe in consensus. What do you guys think? Maurajbo (talk) 20:34, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

That's a good point and well written comment. The reason I deleted it, though, was because of the GA reviewer's suggestions here. Mark was just the son of the reporter that wrote the article. We don't even mention that relationship (nor do I believe we should), so it came off oddly. Suddenly, as the reader goes on, Mark Sigmund appears and no one knows who he is. -- VegitaU (talk) 21:22, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

GA Review Final Comments

Great work, I've looked at all the relevant points above and will now read through the article again just to make sure. Anything I come up with I will list below this, but it is unlikely that any of the comments raised will hold up the GA nomination, they're just for future reference.

• I think the primary contributors to the article should look very closely at the "See Also" section to make sure that all the links there are important and strictly relevant and that any that are are not missing.
• The prose standard is good overall, but I'm noticing a few repetitions and slightly clumsy phrasing. Its good enough for GA, but might have a tough time at FAC. See if you can get a few uninvolved editors to run over the prose before attempting that (if you drop a line on my talk page I might be able to give it a go myself before you nominate).

• Take a look at the hate crimes section, because it repeats itself about Sikhs and could perhaps be phrased a little better.

• "The Commission and its report have been subject to various forms of criticism" - Give examples of this criticism.
• "were not adequately reinforced to provide emergency escape for people above the impact zones. NIST stated that the final report on the collapse of WTC 7 will appear in a separate report.[155][156] This was confirmed by an independent study by Purdue University.[157]" - What was confirmed? The stairwells thing or the seperate report?

None of these problems are significant enough to warrant any further delay of GA status. Congratulations, this is a well-written and properly sourced article on a hugely controversial and contentious issue that must have been a real challenge to maintain partly due to the sheer volume of information that could be added. Good luck working on the sub-articles and if you need any more input just drop me a line. Regards --Jackyd101 (talk) 09:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

		Congrats
		Moldy sandwiches for all! Thanks to everyone's help in achieving Good Article status! VegitaU (talk) 14:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

WTC 7

The section on the cause of this building's collapse references a preliminary report. The findings in this report are presented in a way that is much more definite than the report says we can be. --RadioElectric (talk) 09:22, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

How's that? The building was compromised by fires and collapsed. True. The investigation is ongoing. True. The current hypothesis is the collapse was caused by fire and debris induced structural damage. True. All true and cited, so tell me how it's supposedly more definite. Please read this and this regarding previous discussions on this topic. -- VegitaU (talk) 13:41, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I was saying that the article expresses it in stronger terms than the report does. I've seen the way you've been acting on here. Don't mind me if I wait for another editor to come along. --RadioElectric (talk) 23:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

You mean the way I've been reworking the article tirelessly, finding sources, and expertly citing facts? Why thank you, it's good to be noticed. -- VegitaU (talk) 00:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

The problem may be the way in which the paragraph is structured (If it's the one I'm looking at - in the Aftermath section under Investigations). I think that material from the published, final report on the Twin Towers collapse is being quoted immediately before a sentence about the ongoing investigation into WTC7. Is this the problem? It wouldn't be hard to make the distinction clearer. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 00:46, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Book references

A lot of good work is being done to format the references, add page numbers, etc. But, I am concerned about book references being replaced. If page numbers are needed, I can help with that. In general, books written by experts such as Yosri Fouda, Peter Bergen, Lawrence Wright, Terry McDermott, etc. are higher quality than news articles, provide more depth, more fact-checking, with more expertise going into them. Yosri Fouda's book, for example, is the best reference for citing about the interview Fouda did with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Ramzi Binalshibh. This part of the interview is also included in his documentary on the attacks - طريق إلى 11 سبتمبر (Road to September 11th). I think that something is being lost by taking these out. --Aude (talk) 01:33, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Whoops. I saw the lack of page numbers as a problem and started replacing those sources with news organizations. I don't have any of the books, so if anyone here does, it would only improve the article further. My only concern would be this opening up to garbage like Debunking 9/11 Debunking and Painful Questions. -- VegitaU (talk) 01:46, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I have accumulated numerous books which cover various aspects in-depth (though I'm going away for the summer and not taking them with). There are also some good documentaries, including ones that PBS produced, and the one I mentioned above by Fouda is excellent though not in English. A huge amount has been written on the attacks, so we need to filter through it and choose the best sources. Of course there is a lot of junk out there too. I'm starting a list here (User:Aude/9-11 sources) of what I have, what I think are best sources for various aspects. Maybe this would help? --Aude (talk) 02:11, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

That looks good. It's odd though. This is the first lengthy article where a "further reading" section has been completely removed. I think I first showed up at this article when that happened. -- VegitaU (talk) 02:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I took out the following, which was in the Khalid Sheikh Mohammed section. Although Lawrence Wright's book is an excellent source (and I have the page number), I think this sentence is overly detailed.

"Lawrence Wright, Pulitzer Prize-winning writer, explains that Atta's commitment solidified in response to the Israeli strikes at the beginning of Operation Grapes of Wrath." - source: Wright, Lawrence (2006). The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11. Alfred A. Knopf. ISBN 0-375-41486-X.

Simply saying "Mohamed Atta shared this same motivation." with one sentence to back that up is sufficient. I also swapped the sources for that, back to what was there before. What I put back is more specific (mentioning Israel) and goes with what the paragraph says about KSM. I realize the MSNBC TV documentary is not as widely available, but I still think it's best for now. --Aude (talk) 02:42, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I think all the other changes look good. --Aude (talk) 02:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I still have to get all the accessdates put on the web sources. What a pain that's been. -- VegitaU (talk) 02:55, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Drug connection ?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Off topic discussion closed and moved to user talk. --Haemo (talk) 02:43, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

What appears missing from many sources is a possible 'drug connection' to 9-11, even as part of a conspiracy theory ?

As Canadian troops, have found that Afghanistan is providing over 80% of the world's opium supply.

Could it be that the attack on 'America' was in part due to America's war on drugs, and or elements intercepting drug shipments to America ?

Seems that the logic of the situation merits some reference to this.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 19:27, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I have to say I've never heard this one before. And since the Taliban had stopped opium growth before 9/11, no, it's not possible. -- VegitaU (talk) 19:33, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I too am surprised not to have heard of it before now. Do you have a reliable source for this, or is it just conjecture? We can't just add any editor's opinion to an article. Wikipedia policy forbids it. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 19:35, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Thats the problem. No source. It was not ever mentioned that Afghanistan was the world's greatest Opium producer, all the talk was about oil.

Even though much of the conjecture was about oil, never was a drug connection mentioned.

Just last week the Canadian Foreign Minister was showcased on the CBC dating the former wife of a Drug Dealer.

So is there a connection ?

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 20:06, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

No source. Nothing more to discuss. It isn't mentioned on the article. -- VegitaU (talk) 20:08, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Caesar, this page is not for discussing the attacks, or the possibility of drug connections. It's for discussing how to improve the article. The problem is, we can't do that without reliable sources (because of our verifiability policy). So I'm afraid that this topic isn't going to go anywhere, unless someone can find a published source discussing it. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 20:12, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I look at the current "motives" for the attack and I don't see any logical motives ?

It is only conjecture, but if some part of the US establishment is interfering in your illegal activity, who are you going to report this to ?

There was a movie to this effect some years ago.

Seems like the other 'suggestions' in the thread are pure conjecture as well....

Just asking for a logical explanation to why "they' did what 'they' did...so far very little there that makes logical sense ?

Just asking for a logical explanation.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 22:33, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

This isn't a discussion forum. If you don't feel the motives given by Al-Qaeda are logical, then that's your opinion — they clearly disagree. Nonetheless, this isn't a place to discuss which motives are, or are not, logical. Please confine your comments to the article, and not the subject. --Haemo (talk) 22:47, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Taliban Drug Connection Terroist link

Somehow a previous link has not shown up, but here is another.

Some truths no one wants printed ?

What does that have to do with anything 9/11 related? -- VegitaU (talk) 03:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I will respond to your question on my talk page, as I see an ambush approaching...( it is hoped that this will serve as a model for future cases)

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 03:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Please keep discussion centralized. It's hard to follow, otherwise. --Haemo (talk) 03:43, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Good. That's where these off-tangent discussions belong. -- VegitaU (talk) 03:50, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Does this article mention the PBS special Frontline, that came to the conclusion that the Bush whitehouse needed something to invade Iraq, and built "Al-Quida", when in fact this was suppose to be about Bin Ladin...and whatever ?

(Just a quick note about a movie, anyone know the name that outlines how a 'special agent force' used Air forces to attack a drug cartel in Columbia, with the intent of making it appear like a drug war ?)

VegitaU what are your qualification about this issue ?

Anyway, I will leave this issue for now.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 04:18, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

• "this was suppose to be about Bin Ladin...and whatever"

Since you wrote a short story-length account here and came to this enthralling conclusion, let me just waste a sentence exclaiming how clear it is to me now why we're losing the war. -- VegitaU (talk) 04:26, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

There's not that much of an Afghanistan connection to 9/11. None of the principles were Afghan. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed had been working on the plot for years when he joined al-Qaeda in 1998. The origin of the plot goes back to the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. KSM is supposedly the nephew of the guy in charge of the 1993 attack. That attack was Saddam getting his revenge for the Gulf War. The Taliban did not even exist at that time and Bin Laden was just a "Saudi dissident" living in Sudan. Kauffner (talk) 05:08, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Sep11 Template

This discussion should be in the template talk page, I know, but since few, if any, editors check it compared to this article (and since it affects all 9/11-related matter), I'll post it here. Is anyone else really put-off by that sidebar? It just clogs up one end of the article, moves everything out of its way, and prevents any right-sided images. So, if you want your article to be full of pictures, you have to jam them all in on the left side.

This isn't just a rant, however. A problem like this can be easily fixed, but I'm not knowledgeable enough in template syntax to do it. Editors should be able to choose what kind of format they want, vertical or horizontal. Something like {{{{ifeq:}}|horizontal=yes}} (this is just a guesstimate example) added to the template code would allow the template to be displayed horizontally along the bottom, much like the 9/11 hijackers template. And the damn thing should be able to hide in horizontal (not vertical) mode. Then, we could add a variety of images on both sides of the article.

BTW, this complaint arises from the Flight 11 page and its crowded right side. Can anyone help me with this? -- VegitaU (talk) 22:33, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I resolved the issue myself. I couldn't for the life of me figure out template syntax so I just made a new template. Feel free to change 9/11 articles to {{Sept11}} at your discretion. -- VegitaU (talk) 06:17, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Reliable Sources

Please add reliable sources. Many of the sources have sided arguments. The sources should be from "neutral" organizations according to Wikipedia Policies. Don't you question the sources?--Ilhanli (talk) 17:57, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Please point out which sources are not reliable so we can assist you with this. --Haemo (talk) 02:39, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Rename suggestion

There's been a rename suggestion made on Talk:Celebrations_of_the_September_11,_2001_attacks#Requested_move_2.
Cordially, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 08:33, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Issue changed to a merge suggestion - Talk:Celebrations_of_the_September_11,_2001_attacks#Merge.3F. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 19:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

CT stuff? Reversion of my edit on options activity prior to 9/11

Why was my edit taken out (diff)? Also, what does CT mean? Please use clear, well-recognized acronyms if you're going to use acronyms in an edit summary. Please respond or I will revert. ImpIn | (t - c) 22:47, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, CT means conspiracy theory. Economic activity with no links to the attacks don't belong here. Lot's of stuff happened in the weeks before Sept 11th, 2001. RxS (talk) 22:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I've warned the user. -- VegitaU (talk) 23:02, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Did you even glance at the article? This is an article specifically about 9/11, speculating that the terrorists traded options. Read it and then reply. If necessary, I will take this to wherever I have to, because it is not conspiracy theory and it fits in the article. ImpIn | (t - c) 23:04, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

FBI finds no proof of insider trading prior to 9/11. 9/11 Commission finds nothing. -- VegitaU (talk) 23:10, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Then we can note those papers as well. However, the paper I put in was done by an academic (Poteshman) in the field of business. It says that there was unusual activity. This is not the FBI's field; it is this academic's field. This stuff deserves to be mentioned in the article under motivations. It seems that both of you are entirely set in your opinion. Do you want me to open a RfC? Further, it seems that the NR paper outlining the 9/11 Commission's findings provides a very good balance to Poteshman's paper, showing that there was no insider trading. ImpIn | (t - c) 23:16, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how it fits under motivations when I've given you specific sources renouncing that claim. Maybe it should go in the 9/11 conspiracy theories article. Here it is again: the State Department reiterates - no trading after an "exhaustive search". It's your privilege to take this issue wherever you want. -- VegitaU (talk) 23:21, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

It's still a theorized motivation published in a RS by an author who has published at least 39 papers in finance. It doesn't matter if it has been contradicted; both will balance each other. Plus, it's not a "conspiracy" claim, unless by conspiracy you mean the general conspiracy by the terrorists to commit the action (which, technically, was a conspiracy, but is discussed in "responsibility", a strange name). ImpIn | (t - c) 23:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

And that reply illustrates exactly why it shouldn't be included. Of course it matters that is has been debunked. Otherwise I might as well copy the Loose Change script in here and then just write "lol, j/k!" Now you take an issue with the throughly proven and re-proven account we have written here as a "conspiracy"? You might as well take this up with the admins, because we're just going to argue back and forth here. -- VegitaU (talk) 23:32, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I finally found the diff. These allegations were discussed here and deleted here. -- VegitaU (talk) 23:41, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

That was no discussion. That was a statement by one person -- I clearly see relevance to this article. If something has been claimed by a RS, and there is a subsequent debunking, it makes more sense to include both. Encyclopedias are here to record information. What surprises me is that you don't realize that by immediately settling the question of insider trading in the main article, you would actually decrease interest in the 9/11 conspiracy theories. I don't take issue with the "conspiracy theory" label, which is well-accepted, but I don't like the "responsibility" title much (vague), and I don't think that insider trading can be categorized as "conspiracy theory" rather than "responsibility". The author of this paper clearly targets the terrorists as the ones trading. Do you dispute that? I do wonder why Poteshman didn't mention the work done by the government, however. ImpIn | (t - c) 00:29, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The claims that unusual options trading was observed have been widely reported, but also widely debunked. Since they are generally not accepted to have any credence or importance, it is inappropriate to claim they do. Encyclopedias record information, yes — but not indiscriminately, and especially not when that information is widely regarded to be false, misleading, or of no relevance to the topic. --Haemo (talk) 01:45, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

No. The claims of unusual options activity have been confirmed by researchers in finance. The connection of this activity to the terrorists (or other parties) has been dismissed. Two separate things. However, it's not worth battling over; I see it is covered at the 9/11 advance-knowledge debate. ImpIn | (t - c) 02:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

If the connection between this type of trading and the terrorists has been dismissed, then it doesn't belong here in the first place. If it's been dismissed it probably doesn't belong in 9/11 advance-knowledge debate either. RxS (talk) 04:39, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree it should not be in this article as the put options were rejected by the FBI and the 911 commision. However, it should be in the 911 conspiracy theories article or perhaps it is more approriate for the 911 advance-knowledge debate article. Don't be put off by the explanations you are given as to the claims being debunked. Financial experts are still virtually unanimous that the options are suspicious and should be properly investigated. Before the limited U.S. investigations even began the FBI had already stated (in Congress) that they saw nothing that was suspicious in the trades (10X is considered evidence of insider trading and for 911 it was 285X). The ONLY reason the claims were dismissed, according to the 911 commision, was because the company that made the majority of the options was not in any way connected to al Qaeda (they found it was coincidence). What makes it relevant for the other articles is that the manager of that company was the executive director of the CIA. It should also be noted that it was not just put options, there was also suspicious trading in 5-year bonds and oil and gold futures (in one case over $5 billion for a single transaction) and a surge of more than $100 million in illegal transactions on the WTC's own computors in the hours before the attack. Wayne (talk) 05:39, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

RxS, you don't seem to understand that one RS does not immediately silence another RS, especially when each is equally (or uniquely) qualified to make claims. ImpIn | (t - c) 09:00, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

As a rejected theory, it clearly doesn't belong in this article. Perhaps it belongs in 9/11 advance-knowledge debate. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 12:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it doesn't belong in this article, but I don't know if it is the fact that it is rejected as much as it is the fact that it is of little significance in the main event. ImpIn | (t - c) 22:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)