Talk:American Civil War

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The Lost Cause and origins of the war

For those who think slavery had nothing to do with causes of the War, see the declarations of reasons for secession, political speeches and editorials made by the original secessionists at: Causes of the Civil War.Jimmuldrow (talk) 22:41, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Civil War document

No doubt the document is locked because there are errors of omission and incorrect information favorable to specific groups of history revisionists.

For example, the Emancipation Proclamation outlawed slavery only in territory that Neither President Lincoln or the Union controlled. Yet, NO slaves in the Union states were released by the Proclamation. The southern states and territories were specifically listed in the document.

And, The War was not fought over slavery! It was fought over double taxation on souther cotton and returning goods along with other eroding constitutional rights of the states as outlined in The Constitution.

And, NO southern ship hauled any slave to the USA for sale. Only ships owned and operated by northern state residents sailed to Africa, bought slaves from black tribal chiefs and hauled them back to America and sold them.

Finally, there were black slave owners in norther states who owned slaves and contracted them out to households and businesses during the day and fed and housed them at night.

How does the revisionists history writers square the northern riots against blacks after The War because they were taking their jobs?

And, there is much more revisionist writers refuse to research, write about and tell the full truth... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Al Barrs (talk • contribs) 20:42, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll deal with your various falsehoods one by one.

And, The War was not fought over slavery! You ignore, like most do, WHY tariffs and other trade arrangements that discriminated against the export of unfinished goods was so anathema to the South. Because its whole entire economy was reliant upon the cheap production of staple, unrefined good by using chattel slavery. The tariffs wouldn't have mattered if the South's economy wasn't constructed the way it was. So yes, slavery, as the cornerstone of their economic system, WAS the cause of the war.

For example, the Emancipation Proclamation outlawed slavery only in territory True, but most people who say this are missing the larger point; Lincoln's war powers didn't extend to states that weren't in rebellion. As it was, most states in the north had banned slavery, and most of the border states had either minuscule populations, or were on their way to banning it.

Finally, there were black slave owners in norther states who owned slaves and contracted them out to households and businesses during the day and fed and housed them at night. Well presuming that they were in a state where slavery was legal, most black slave owners owned their families or purchased fellow slaves in order to wrest them from . It was notoriously hard in many Southern states to grant manumission, and in some, manumission had been totally banned. The only way for a free black who happened to be manumitted to retrieve his family was to pay for it.

That said,there WERE black slave owners, here, and even in Haiti, that exploited their fellow blacks. I can't think of any ethnicity that doesn't have some sort of hierarchical relationship within it. But their prescence was bordering on statistically irrelevant. It also doesn't absolve white people of slavery that a handful of blacks also engaged in it; many racially tinged purges, genocides, and enslavements have been assisted by "helpful" or "good" members of a targeted ethnicity. The fact, for instance, that kapos existed in Nazi concentration camps doesn't absolve the Germans of their crimes.

And, NO southern ship hauled any slave This is blatantly untrue, and can be proven by something as simple as consulting statistics on slave importation and seeing who did so. While I don't have it on hand, I can refer you to "Final Victims" by that documents the last 20 years of the Atlantic slave trade before it was finally banned. I can assure that slave traders can from all over the Eastern seaboard, and dealt in significant quantities. Charleston alone imported 91,000 slaves alone from 1706 to 1775. And it was the BUSIEST port by far. (source: Slave Sales in Colonial Charleston Kenneth Morgan The English Historical Review, Vol. 113, No. 453 (Sep., 1998), pp. 905-927).

"How does the revisionists history writers square the northern riots against blacks after The War because they were taking their jobs?" The same way they square the systematic violence and discrimination of blacks in the South; racism was ever present everywhere in America, both, north, south, east and west. What the north did have, though they had prejudiced racist views, was a hatred towards slavery, for a variety of reasons, from religious to economic to social. Again the fact that the North wasn;t a bastion of racial enlightenment doesn't get the South off the hook.

Your assertions and ridiculous statements are blown apart by people who have actually done research, and by the me, and others who have written and edited articles on the civil war. Now, if you don't mind, have actual research and writing to be done on other civil war articles. SiberioS (talk) 05:23, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

You may want to dig a little deeper when you go back to your research. Look beyond your high school texts. The "Civil War" has been taught from a northern perspective since the war ended.

It kind of reminds me of the end of the Super Bowl. All the reporters rush up to the winning team and get their story. Then, they kick it over to the other team for a couple of minutes and then back to the winners for more of their story.

Ask yourself this question when you are doing your "research". Why would the "civil war" be fought over a single issue (slavery) when the majority of southerners did not own slaves? There must of been other reasons.

It's true that most Southerners owned no slaves. So why would the poor fight for the rich? Because plantation owners went out of their way to win the support of poor Southerners by (sometimes) lending the use of their cotton gins, lending money and encouraging regional and racial solidarity among Southern whites. Poor Southerners were told that slavery created social equality among Southern whites. Also, fears of racial equality were greater in the South because 95% of blacks lived in the South.

Also, high school history books were written from the Southern point of view for many years, and some still are.

Jimmuldrow (talk) 03:56, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I have, actually, looked "beyond" highschool textbooks. I have in fact, read dozens of books, from scholarly sources, about slavery and the American Civil War. I have read dozens of journal articles. I was the person who mostly rewrote the Military history of African American's in the U.S. Civil War, and also rewrote completely Confederate railroads in the American Civil War, as well as doing significant rewrites of Economy of the Confederate States of America. My record, as indicated by the reference lists in those articles, stands for itself. I already responded to your ridiculous assertions, and I don't feel inclined to give them anymore of my time. SiberioS (talk) 19:19, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, you did not respond to my assertions I did not write the top article. High School text are not written from the Southern point of view. I cannot believe you just wrote that. You have got to be kidding. Where did you go to high school?It must not have been on this planet. If high school texts were written from the Southern point of view, why is ther no mention of Black Confederate troops, Native American Confederate troops, Hispanic Confederate troops, Jewish Cionfederate troops? The lack of fair teachings of this war has led to ignorance both North and South to this day. For example, people see a Confederate battle flag and think KKK and hate when the majority of people displaying the flag can't stand groups like the KKK. We need to teach both sides fairly and honor both sides and all people involved in the war regardless of race, religion etc. need to be honored as well.

Your statement of poor Southerners being told that slavery created social equality holds little reason poor Southerners would fight for the Confederacy. Many poor Southerners did not care one way or the other about slavery. Most Southerners fought for their state and their home. That's all they had.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.21.146.218 (talk) 17:19, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually it holds a great reason why. Most people who didn't own slaves were either petit-bougeroise (such as doctors, lawyers, and other professionals) who aided its working, or were yeoman farmers whom provided the food stuff and other crop essentials necessary to running a large plantation that is dedicated to unedible cash crops. Even what industry there was in the South was characterized by the use of industrial slavery and bonded slaves from local plantations. Point is, without a system of chattel slavery the whole entire system that funded both plantation owner and small farmer alike would come collapsing down with the unleashing of millions of african american's into the free labor force and the possibility of new farm competition.

And considering I wrote the article that describes the discussion over possibly allowing blacks into Confederate ranks, yes, I DO know about them. And hardly any of them were raised before the collapse of the Confederacy, and as it was, it still required manumission from slave owners. A slave couldn't just freely join. As for all the other ethnicities you've listed, again, the things that differentiates them from their northern equivalents is their opinion on slavery. Slave holding Indian tribes generally sided with the Confederacy and Cuban's sought to aid the Confederacy because of their own fears about the end of slavery in their own country.

So yes, I HAVE answered your assertions, here, and in the articles themselves. Until you provide actual scholarly sources that assert (and don't go mining for internet quotes) that the economy and political system of the South was not reliant upon chattel slavery, all the articles as they are. SiberioS (talk) 23:53, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

You mean troops like this one?

Again not taught in school. Would be great to teach to combat organizations such as the KKK and neo nazis! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.20.165.33 (talk) 20:23, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Sf46 (talk) 00:06, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Theres actually a great book put out by the Unviersity of South Carolina Press called The Jewish Confederates by Robert Rosen. Its a good analysis of their position, status, and ideological affinity during the Civil War. Like all things, its more nuanced than most people realize. SiberioS (talk) 14:31, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Civil war nd Darfur

I'm wondering whether u consider Lincoln as the new bachir, of sudan? it's a rebellion there also? --Stayfi (talk) 09:41, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

commanders

why there only 2 for each side?--Jakezing (talk) 17:10, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Mostly for ease of reading, I suspect. The top commander is the elected President of each side, while the bottom is the primary military leader of the army for each side. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:10, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

and yet ignores all those other ones we had, and they, had.--Jakezing (talk) 16:44, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Star of The West

I'm not sure how this figures in, but there are some claims that the first shots of the Civil War were not the bombardment of Fort Sumter, but the firing on the Star of The West by Citadel Cadets on Jan. 9, 1861. The ships failed attempt to reach Fort Sumter is mentioned in this wiki, but I think the importance of it being fired on prior to the April attack on Fort Sumpter is not properly stated. --205.242.12.130 (talk) 16:17, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Secondary Reason for the war (main?)

I read that the civil war was more about handing more power to the federal government than to the states. The fight from a confederate form of government (state sovereignty) to a central government with state power being the lesser. Also that slavery was just used as a promotional tool to gain favor for the federal movement.

My question is: does this have any truth to it? I did not read the whole civil war wikipedia entry as I figured it would be stated as a secondary warrant for the civil war. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.162.64.129 (talk) 19:56, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The same people who organized secession demanded a Federal slave code for the territories (indeed, they split from the Democratic party rather than nominate Stephen Douglas because he opposed one); they had demanded and enforced Federal legislation on fugitive slaves. That is not a pristine states' right position; as often, questions of constitutional authority only became political issues when they covered a substantive economic interest. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:04, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm a general believer that a materialist outlook, more often than not (though with notable exceptions) explains the impulses of individuals as far as their political positions go. I think this is why so many Lost Cause supporters have a problem with the North detesting slavery without necessarily being a beacon of racial integration and harmony; they fail to see the clear economic basis for the disdain of slavery, both from Northern industrialists (who feared slave competition) as well as from working class roots (many early trade and craft unions viewed an emboldened slave power as a writing on the wall for themselves; many feared that enslavement of white industrial workers was not far behind) that had absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a person individually liked or disliked African American's as a social group.

In the Confederacy, as I explained above, this concern over economic status is reflected not in class divisions (which were already apparent in the industrial North) but in racial groups. Similar to many other secessionist and nationalist movements, the unit to be promoted is a pan-whatever group (be it pan-white, pan-Arab, pan-African etc), that overlooks or argues away class differences in place of a larger group solidarity. It is also these class antagonisms that often lead to a collapse in such a movement. SiberioS (talk) 21:37, 3 July 2008 (UTC)