Talk:Leonard Bernstein

Ode to Joy and the Berlin Wall

Helga, I'm very happy you found that item about Ode to Joy and the Berlin Wall. I've always loved that tune, from when I was a little boy. --Ed Poor

Not 'chicester' but 'chichester'

Cheers, Marco Lazzeri

POV material

Comments such as these are blatant POV and cannot be included:

As an interpreter, Bernstein was like "the little girl with the little curl": When he was good, he was untouchable - too many of his recordings to name are still considered the definitive interpretations of the works in question. When he was bad - most commonly in works he had to conduct as any world-famous conductor with a recording contract must - he could be dreadful in his interpretations, if he personally disliked the piece. This pattern showed up in many aspects of his life.

It is not the job of Wikipedia to say when Bernstein is "good" or "bad". Such judgments can only be reported if made my repected critics or other third parties. See WP:NPOV

Grover cleveland 02:58, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I think that section has already been removed. I couldn't find it. AlbertSM 00:37, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Sbpat21's edit

• "It is noted that Samuel Byck, would-be assassin of Richard Milhous Nixon sent several recorded audio tapes to him detailing various events and monologues."

Does anyone have a reference for this? Even if they do, I'm not sure it's that important to the article. I'll remove the sentence if not cited in the next few days. David Underdown 08:17, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

There are about 13,000 refs you can find by googling "Leonard Bernstein" "Samuel Byck". You could also cite Assassins (musical). - Nunh-huh 09:44, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Ome good reference is the 2004 film The Assassination of Richard Nixon, starring Sean Penn. AlbertSM 00:38, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Even referenced, this is something notable about Samuel Byck, not about Bernstein. I'm going to remove it. It might be more appropriate with some description of Bernstein's reaction to the tapes - if he just threw them out without listening, then it is completely irrelevant.

Bernstein's homosexuality is well documented

Is no one going to write about his most notorious aspect? - Ahmad Azrai

Hopefully someone who recognizes it's not "his most notorious aspect"". - Outerlimits 07:52, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I have inserted a brief account of his family life, with references to his homosexuality. His sexual life was "notorious" only in the sense of being a frequent subject of gossip at the time. Unfortunately, many today still consider same-sex relationships shameful (see many of Wiki's articles on other contemporary figures in Classical music, esp. the Talk Page on Vladimir Horowitz). 66.108.4.183 19:54, 28 May 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

Accept that this musical genius was gay. What's with the removing of any and all trace of his homosexuality? As a proud gay person, I'm sad to know that there are Wikipedia users out there that are uncomfortable with the truth: that he was gay. C'mon people, his bio is part of the WikiProject GLBT Studies for a reason. It's well documented that he was gay and that it was a major part of who he was; as well as the fact that he ALSO adored his wife and kids. This is NOT disputed.

If you have a POV that being gay is somehow wrong, that's your right, but it's not your right to obscure the facts. If this fact is not left in, I will petition for editing protection. ---Kaihoku 06:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

His homosexuality has nothing to do with his greatness as a conductor or composer. I don't think this aspect should be overly emphasized, though, or it might make the article seem voyeuristic.AlbertSM 01:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I quite agree with this position. WP is a general-interest encyclopedia, and Bernstein is known to the public at large as a great musician, not as a great gay guy. Sure, it's a part of who he was, but it is not the reason for his celebrity. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 14:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

When I was in New York, I recall hearing that Bernstein preferred young black boys, and it was getting around that that is what he was doing, and that the board of the New York Philharmonic told him he had to do something, change his behaviour - whatever - because it was going to affect the orchestra's reputation and that if the situation did not change, that they would not be able to keep him. Is there any documentation of this? Is this why Bernstein left the New York Philharmonic? This story was well-known in New York. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.139.97 (talk) 09:08, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe you're confusing Bernstein with another eminent conductor well known in New York, about whom this exact same story circulates.

I have removed the reference to Thomas Hampson being one of his rumored lovers because I thought it much too gossipy. This is an encyclopedia biography, not a page out of the National Enquirer. AlbertSM (talk) 18:58, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Koussevitzky

It would also be nice to see some mention of LB's connection with Koussevitzky; I will add this if I have time and nobody else does so. Wspencer11 13:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Done. -- ßottesiηi ^(talk) 00:36, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Composer section

Is Mitropoulos really that well-known as a composer? Plenty of conductors have written music but very rarely nowadays are they known as both conductors and composers; John Adams is a notable exception. I find it hard to believe that Lorin Maazel or Wilhelm Furtwängler or any of the others will be remembered for their compositions in any way. Though I didn't remove DM the first time I don't think he should have been reinstated. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 15:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Where is it??

There isn't any section about Bernstein as a composer. In the classical world, his works are held in high esteem, especially for the way they combine contemporary writing with popular music (such as twelve-tone techniques in "West Side Story"), similar to Gershwin. His symphonies and other works are still widely performed today. (Chichester Psalms, Divertimento, as well as musicals and stage works) He IS one of the rare composer-conductors who still are famous for both. Could somebody write such a paragraph? -- megA 12:39, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Radical chic

I do not believe that the external link to a site concerning the Tom Wolfe book is, in and of itself, a sufficient reference to this aspect of Mr. Bernstein's significance in the cultural history of the U.S. He was an absolute icon of "radical chic." I believe that this matter deserves a mention in the body of the article. 66.90.226.115 17:11, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Bernstein hated identification with "radical chic". In a "60 Minutes" interview, Mike Wallace again brought up the subject of that infamous "Black Panther" party, and Bernstein showed exasperation. I'd just as soon they left it alone; it demeans him.AlbertSM 20:54, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Lives are messy and they are what they are. The fact that Bernstein's cultural significance as the defining icon of "radical chic" might be seen as "demeaning" does not justify its exclusion here, however much he is admired for his music. In fact, it is his musical brilliance that elevates him to such a position of cultural significance that peripheral aspects of his life are of broad interest. The fact that Bernstein, himself, may have hated -- and perhaps wished to erase -- this piece of his story is no reason for honest biography to cooperate. 74.242.235.111 (talk) 17:46, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Bernstein and the Black Panthers

ASME's Top 40 Magazine Covers of the Last 40 Years (October 17, 2005) lists one cover that hits Bernstein's involvement --and particularly its social significance-- right on the head (see #35). I think it should have some inclusion beyond a link at the very bottom. --Bobak (talk) 19:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Conductors he influenced?

I am not sure that the latest addition to the article is really useful. He has undoubtedly influenced many conductors, great and small. Is it helpful to note only three of them at the expense of all the others? --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 02:09, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Infobox

Just a note to say that I have taken the musical artist's infobox away and these are no longer being used for composers. Regards. --Kleinzach 14:25, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Smear

Wikipedia Gay Lobby has a long, detailed entry about sexual orientation. You would think that such innuendo is of major importance. Of course, it is important to those immature, juvenile, adolescent people who think that such behavior is praiseworthy in an adult. Even if Bernstein had passed through the immature phase of homosexuality, he eventually matured into a life of being husband and father to several decent children. It would be praiseworthy if those children would sue for defamation. Lestrade 16:32, 25 October 2007 (UTC)Lestrade

You've got the chronology wrong. First he was a husband and family father, then he enventually matured to living openly gay from the 70s onward to his very end. AFAIK his children never had problems with that. But you got a point: the article should really mainly focus on LB the musician, as that is what he is remembered for. --FordPrefect42 22:01, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Award Section Incorrect

Actually, Bernstein did not win a Tony Award for Best Musical. West Side Story lost the Tony Award that year to The Music Man. Shame. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.232.55.254 (talk) 05:24, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Bizarre that the entry does';t talk about West Side Story except in passing. It might not be "serious" music, but I suggest it's what Bernstein will be remebered for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.152.249.11 (talk) 15:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Not only is the mention of West Side Story only a passing reference, there is no substantial section on Bernstein as a composer. I think he would have been horrified. He took his sabbatical from the New York Philharmonic to return to composition, and his contributions to the American symphony are substantial and varied (in the three symphonies). West Side Story and Candide are crucial to the history of musical theater, and the article doesn't even mention his substantial contribution to film scores (i.e. On the Waterfront). Further, the article should say something about the difficult of bridging these fields - as in taking the helm of the New York Philharmonic after his stint on Broadway with West Side Story. Musicsignifica (talk) 13:11, 13 July 2008 (UTC)