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For the sake of completion and in order to not be biased I'm sure we need to dedicate a paragraph at least to anti-liberal protest songs; which have certainly been increasing in number since the Iraq War. However, it's a subject that I know practically nothing about, so perhaps someone who is a little more knowledgeable of the genre could add a piece? Maybe in the 21st century paragraph? [[User:Warchef|Warchef]] 13:05, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
For the sake of completion and in order to not be biased I'm sure we need to dedicate a paragraph at least to anti-liberal protest songs; which have certainly been increasing in number since the Iraq War. However, it's a subject that I know practically nothing about, so perhaps someone who is a little more knowledgeable of the genre could add a piece? Maybe in the 21st century paragraph? [[User:Warchef|Warchef]] 13:05, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
- I think the "criticism" section needs work. It lacks references, and appears to be a single person's opinion. It is also poorly written. "disapprovement...." Come on! Surely we can do better than this.
- I think the "criticism" section needs work. It lacks references, and appears to be a single person's opinion. It is also poorly written. "disapprovement...." Come on! Surely we can do better than this.

::There is a big conceptual confusion here between protest songs and topical songs. How can a song ''in support'' of the US government's policies in Iraq be considered a "protest song??"[[Special:Contributions/96.250.24.191|96.250.24.191]] ([[User talk:96.250.24.191|talk]])


== Pro War Section ==
== Pro War Section ==

Revision as of 01:18, 8 September 2008

Title

Oh, let's belabor a little. This article lacks rigor. Burl Ives was a pioneer folk singer, harassed for his left-wing views, but not a protest singer that I can recall. Bruce Springsteen is a protest singer but not a folk singer, Elvis Costello, Marvin Gaye, down in the canebrake plunking on the banjo, etc. "Losing My Religion" is not about religion, it's an old southern expression meaning, losing my attraction. Ortolan88

Yes, I agree that this article lacks rigor, and is losing more as we all add songs to the list. I don't know if having a category for songs protesting alienation is any more valid that having a category for songs protesting tourism. (And yes, a couple come to mind: "Holidays in the Sun" by the Sex Pistols and "Everyday Is Like Sunday" by Morrissey.) Maybe it would be a good idea to separate the list of songs from the topic of what a protest song is in two different articles? Two halves
Hey, wait a second. Songs protesting alienation most definitely belong in the category of protest songs. This was one of the major themes of social protest during the 1960s. The big reason why "Sounds of Silence" became a big hit in 1965 was that it struck a nerve with the rising New Left sensibility of the 1960s. Alienation was a big theme of the New Left at the time, and this one of the big issues that distinguished it from the Old Left. ("I am a human being--do not fold, spindle or mutiliate" was a common slogan of the time.) So there is no question that the Simon and Garfunkel songs belong in the list of protest songs.


Actually, it was Karl Marx who introduced the concept of alienation to the world. His concern was the separation between the worker and her work, crudely speaking. Ortolan88

Yes, good point. Still, I think the 1960s conception of the term was a little different, and had more to do with the isolation of individuals in modern society. "Alienation" was the big part of the Simon and Garfunkle identity. Actually, I remember in 1975, in one of the first episodes of "Saturday Night Live", Paul Simon was a musical guest, and he appeared onstage in a chicken suit. He explained on the show that he was reluctant to appear this way, but the producers asked him if he wanted to always be known as "Mr. Alienation". soulpatch
That being said, I would agree that some of the songs on this list don't really belong, and it is clear that most of the songs on the list are not folk songs, but rock songs, so some kind of definition of the concept that discusses the genres of music that produce protest songs is in order. Protest songs probably entered rock music via folk rock, but once it made it there rock became a major vehicle for social protest, at least for a while. And, by the way, Simon and Garfunkle sang folk rock. So there. soulpatch
On another note--didn't Burl Ives name names during the McCarthy era witch hunts? That would seem to place him in a somewhat exceptional category among "protest singers". soulpatch
Yes. He pointed the finger at Pete Seeger, among others. -- Zoe
I just wanted to note that I've never thought of a protest song as being necessarily folk. I could be wrong, but that's not how I've ever used the term. Tokerboy 07:11 Nov 24, 2002 (UTC)

I'd say that historically, folk music (in the true sense of non-commercial music rising among the people) and Folk Music (in the sense of the commercial distribution of music in the first category) are definitely at the root of the idea that music can convey messages beyond the usual pop-music fare of love, betrayal, novelty, etc. Leadbelly, Josh White, and so forth were taken up by leftists who were geniuinely interested in the music, but also pushing an agenda. Then came groups like The Weavers who were no more real "folk" than Peter, Paul and Mary were. That is, each of them was strictly an "act" despite active PR efforts to obscure the fact and to market them to their natural audience.

So, my idea of rigor would be some statement that first protest appeared in folk music, was quickly commercialized by mostly leftists, but that then folk music so pervaded and influenced pop music that protest began showing up there, and that there is now protest music totally divorced from folk music. Then, put some categories in the article for putting various tunes under one roof, etc. Ortolan88 16:32 Nov 24, 2002 (UTC)


I guess some people have a really expansive meaning of protest song. When I think of the meaning of 'protest song' I think of things like "Come All You Coal Miners" and "I Ain't Marching Any More". Songs that focused on simple lyrics with uncomplicated metaphor to talk about current events and explain a situation to the listener to move him or her into action to better the situation. Now, some modern songs have these qualities, and I would even think songs like "911 is a Joke" (telling people not to use the 911 service) and "Legalize It" (about legalizing marijuana) could be considered protest songs. However, songs like "Californication" and "Losing My Religion" are just too vague in their lyrics to be considered protest songs. I admit that these songs probably do have some kind of message, but not all songs that have a message should be considered protest songs. Is "Barbie Girl" a protest song against consumer culture? I don't think so. Maybe if we can get a consensus here, we can begin weeding down these faux protest songs. Like "Poptones" (lyrics [1]). This is not in the same category as The Internationale. --The demiurge 07:49, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hah. If I'm thinking about protest songs, commercial music is the last thing that comes to my mind. Songs like "What shall we drink?" (or whatever the English version is called), which is a catchy tune dating at least back to the weaver riots in late medieval Germany (similar versions may have existed before) are more like it. The equivalent would be the kind of elaborate protest songs you hear occassionally at larger, LONGER, protests against whatever is worth fighting.
Protest songs are hardly ever professionally made. Either they're created on the spot or they are adopted, but they only become protest songs if they are used as such. They need to fulfill certain requirements to qualify as potential protest songs, but I wouldn't call anything like Californication a protest song simply because it has a lot of implicit critique in it and might be used as a protest song.
Also, not every song played in a protest is a protest song. Usually protests, like anything else, eventually have a certain theme song, which may or may not be a protest song, which is played over and over again.
Either way, the concept of "protest songs" clearly divides into two categories, namely, songs written in protest (you can hardly distribute something commercially if you want to protest against commercialisation, btw -- you don't want to earn money with protest, so you can hardly SELL your protest for money) and songs used as protest songs (i.e. songs which may not originally have been intended as protest songs, but can be used that way, especially if you rewrite a few verses or replace a few words, or simply give them a different meaning by context).
The Internationale would be the first category, something like Californication could possibly be the second category, if it's ever used that way (but, again, it's not a choice of the artist, it's a choice of whoever wants to use it in protest). Songs like Dear Mr. President OTOH are neither. There's some level of critique in most songs, but saying that something or someone sucks in various ways doesn't make a song a protest song, that's just critique. And as long as you're recording the song professionally, put it on a CD and earn money with it, mere protest having been your main intention with writing that song seems doubtful at best. — Ashmodai (talk · contribs) 07:00, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, I cut out the whole section of "songs protesting alienation" because not only does the concept of a protest song against alienation not make sense to me, but I can't see how any of these songs are really protesting anything, in the "protest song" sense. If you really think these are protest songs, please respond. --The demiurge 04:09, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Protest songs concerning alienation

Um, take a look at the songs, please. I think I would categorize "Insanity" and "Subdivisions" as solidly protest songs. I'm not too sure about the others. I think that alienation is perhaps not quite the label that these songs should have - perhaps we need another. These are songs that reflect cultural dissonance and I tend to think that alienation is an appropriate synonym. See my note above about "Zeitgeist". Cultural rot might also be a category name, but that seems too judgmental to me. Brian Rock 04:26, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
From what I can tell from the lyrics of "Insanity", one stanza in particular seems to express dissatisfaction with the hypocrisy of Christian moral leadership, but most of it seems to be very personal, talking to someone (I’d love to hear you laugh tonight, I’d love to hear you weep / I’d love to listen to you while you’re screaming in your sleep). "Subdivisions" seems to express dissatisfaction with suburban life, but the tone seems to be that of remembrance of childhood events. I would say that these songs might be considered protest songs, but they're not "solidly" protest songs. Actually, as you can see from my first post above, I'm pretty dissatisfied with the whole page. What do you think to leaving maybe 10 or 15 very good examples of protest songs on this page and making a seperate page (maybe List of protest songs) for this gigantic list? --The demiurge 05:55, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I personally think that would be reasonable - the "List of" articles are well-established in Wikipedia - but I think it has the potential to start a war among those who don't agree. I'm personally rather risk-averse to such moves, but being bold is what we're supposed to be about. If you want, give it a shot and see what happens. Good luck! Brian Rock 10:16, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Changes of Jan 21, 2006

The change history of this article of the last 6 months is sad. There are more disimprovements than improvements. Here's what I deleted or changed:

"including [[punk rock]] and [[Hip hop music|hip hop]]"
Already included in "all genres of music".
"and their supporters"
What is gained by adding this?
"and, to a lesser extent, to the end of it with the works ..."
This is clumsy, and we don't need to list groups that only fit to a lesser extent. There are already enough in the list. (On second thought: Well, maybe not. But I added a link to Category:Musical activists - that should provide what's needed.)
"La Nueva Cancion"
The long text here is inappropriate in an overview like this. This should be merged with the existing page Nueva canción. I'll add it on that talk page for now.
"For examples of many different types of protest songs, see "
This is unnecessary. What else would one expect at List of protest songs?
"[[Category:Anti-war songs]]"
Both that category and this article are already in Category:Protest songs - there's no reason to add the article to both. If anything, I'd like it to be part of Category:songs again, because now there are two steps in between this article and that category.

Common Man 02:59, 21 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Too short!

This is too short. I'd like to see more in depth discussion on this big topic. Totnesmartin 15:12, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Too short and not detailed enough - 60's protest songs is a topic complex and big enough to warrant an article in itself (not only a more significant listing of songs and artists, but also sociological and cultural relevance, historic events such as the March on Washington etc.). Also the recent slew of anti-Iraqi war protest songs (Brights eyes' "When the President Talks to God", Devendra Banhart's "Heard Somebody Say" etc.) deserve more detailed and sensitive treatment as well.

i think we should try to agree on what format this article should take - sub-divided by theme (anti-war, pro-human rights, equality, anti-tourism [as mentioned above - legitimate i think]; or by decade (a bit slippery but also possible), or separate articles for more in-depth treatment of the different sub-genres. at the very least it needs to be more comprehensive and more historical/sociological in order for it to be an article of relevance to its subject Warchef 07:10, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Billy Bragg

As the summary of 1980's protest music consisted of only one song, I decided to add a sentence about Billy Bragg just to expand it a bit and hopefully get the ball rolling on adding more 1980's protest singers - in Britain in particular there were alot. Bruce Springsteen's "Born in the USA" springs to mind as well.Warchef 07:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I also added a small piece about the anti-Reagan protest songs in the mainstream in America that existed simultaneously to Bragg's anti-Thatcherisms in Britain - but it's really just a footnote so that there is at least SOMETHING in the article about it - is anybody interested in helping me to expand this? Warchef 12:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Anti-liberal protest songs

For the sake of completion and in order to not be biased I'm sure we need to dedicate a paragraph at least to anti-liberal protest songs; which have certainly been increasing in number since the Iraq War. However, it's a subject that I know practically nothing about, so perhaps someone who is a little more knowledgeable of the genre could add a piece? Maybe in the 21st century paragraph? Warchef 13:05, 28 June 2007 (UTC) - I think the "criticism" section needs work. It lacks references, and appears to be a single person's opinion. It is also poorly written. "disapprovement...." Come on! Surely we can do better than this.[reply]

There is a big conceptual confusion here between protest songs and topical songs. How can a song in support of the US government's policies in Iraq be considered a "protest song??"96.250.24.191 (talk)

Pro War Section

This section doesn't belong in this article. A more appropriate counterbalance would be criticisms about protest songs. I'll rename the current section and take out the parts that don't belong here. 134.53.176.203 21:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cool - I see your point, duly noted. However, there is more to the issue, and if the article is ever going to be more comprehensive and incorporate the sociological relevance and struggle of the protest song - and move away from a simple list of periods and popular songs - counterbalance is crucial. I think there is a case for presenting the opposite side of the coin in the name of being balanced and comprehensive, and in giving perspective - however i do agree with you that the section wasn't quite right. I'll look into more concrete criticisms of protest songs for now and perhaps just link to a pro-war songs wiki page (if indeed such a thing exists? I know I'm not the one to start such a thing). Cheers for your excellent contributions by the way.Warchef 22:46, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

headliner

"Some of the most internationally famous examples of protest songs come from the U.S. They include "We Shall Overcome" (a song popular in the labor movement and later the Civil Rights movement), Bob Dylan's "Blowin' in the Wind and Marvin Gaye's "What's Going On". Protest songs are generally associated with folk music, but more recently they have been produced in all genres of music."

I think this part should be removed. Maybe that sentence runs for the english speaking world, but there are a lot of songs that have the same or more recognition than those around the world and are far away of being from the United States. Maybe no protest song or country can have the "famous example" label on it. And definetively no country can have the label of "world protest song maker", every country has an incredible amount of culture that should be respected.--Bauta (talk) 17:14, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The article is very biased towards USA and UK, however I've contributed alot to it and this is my realm of knowledge - to tell you the truth I've been very disappointed by the lack of contribution on this article by people from different countries who can speak with more authority than I on their country's tradition of protest music. I have added some sections on Irish, German, Chilean, Cuban and South African protest songs; but as I don't know much about these traditions off hand, that has included alot of research, which I only have the time to do every now and then. If you can help to expand these sections or add new sections on the protest songs of other cultures to help improve the article please do.
As regards the headliner i see two options, either we leave it as it is and append something to the effect of "as well as many key figures from other countries, such as Victor Jara in Latin America, Silvio Rodríguez in Cuba and Vuyisile Mini in anti-apartheid South Africa" - with the hope that when the article gets more international contribution, this headliner will grow along with it. the second option is just to delete the whole line, but i'm for the first option, as while it is admittedly biased, it's still pertinent to mention songs like Blowing in the Wind or We Shall Overcome in the headliner to an article about Protest songs. so i'm for expanding and against deleting. any thoughts? peace Warchef (talk) 17:36, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Missing artists/genres/songs

Eddy Grant - Gimme Hope Jo'anna needs to be mentioned somewhere here... Midnight Oil really should be aswell

How about U2 ("Bullet the Blue Sky", "Sunday Bloody Sunday"), I know they write about a lot of different topics, but they are arguably the biggest band of the last 30 years, and activism has always been a major part of their music. Also, what about anti-war metal from the 80s and beyond (i.e Slayer "Reign in Blood", Metallica "And Justice for All") TuesdayMush (talk) 19:55, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

U2 are already included- although perhaps not in depth enough- in the Irish section. I agree about Eddy Grant and Midnight Oil- as soon as I find a good source on them I'll add them, if you haven't added them yourself by then. I don't know much about 80s metal protest songs, but I'd love to see your contribution in this area, if you have the time. thanks alot for the suggestions - anything else missing?Warchef (talk) 21:15, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

hey, What about Arlo Guthrie with songs like Alices resteraunt which are all about ending the Vietnam war, or Guns 'n' Roses's "Civil war"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.72.45.98 (talk) 23:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Alice's Restaurant" is already included, near the end of the 60's-70's section.--Edgewise (talk) 01:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Germany section

The Germany section is pretty bad. I am German born and I kinda know that a) there is more than Deutschpunk and b) most Deutschpunk was no protest music at least not more than punk in general. Bands or songs that should be mentioned on the other hand are Ton Steine Scherben (THE German protest song band in the late 60s/early 70s) and the Scorpions perestroyka hymn "wind of change". Nena's "99 Luftballons" should in no case be removed but maybe it could be added that radio stations frequently cut the last verse and by that most of the song's criticism... It could also be argued that there should be a hint to the Krautrock movement which was protest and a typically German thing.

The most important thing to be mentioned (next to Ton Steine Scherben) would be however the German Liedermacher (songwriters) like Reinhard Mey, Hannes Wader, Heiner Lauterbach or more historically Ernst Busch and composer Kurt Weill. Songs that could be mentioned are "Einheitsfrontlied", "Roter Wedding", "Resolution der Kommunarden" or "Der heimliche Aufmarsch". A protest song from the ecologist movement with significant success in the early 80s was "Karl der Käfer" by Gänsehaut.

I could update this section but I don't want to delete everything that's written (however I think it's bad) without any precursor discussion. --190.21.31.146 (talk) 06:11, 22 February 2008 (UTC) (log in not at hand by now, janvanbasten)[reply]

Please feel free to remove and add anything you want to improve it. I agree it's bad, but till now we haven't had anyone come along with much knowledge on the subject. I'll try to help you if I can, but it seems you know alot about the subject, and I look forward to seeing your improvements :) Warchef (talk) 09:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To help you get started I copied over some info from the Ton Steine Scherben page, but as I don't know much about them I'll let you decide what's relevant from that info and what can be improved. Also, it would be great to get more insight into individual songs if at all possible. cheers! Warchef (talk) 09:20, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wind of Change? You gotta be kidding. What they are protesting against with Wind of Change? This is support song, not protest one. Netrat_msk (talk) 13:34, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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North American Bias

This article is biased- almost completely ignoring the fact that protest balladeering is an English invention- the oldest surviving arguable protest song being "Robyn Hode and Gamylyne"- surviving in print from 1350.

Thus, this article contradicts many other Wiki article that predate this particular article. Please rectify the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.161.141.44 (talk) 12:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bulat Okudzhava fought in the war?

I think this is the way to brave to say that Bulat actually fought in the war. According to his interview his role as a soldier in WWII was very limited. In fact, he never engaged in any real combat. So the line should be changed somehow, maybe to "participated in war" or something like that. Alternatively, it can be totally removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.46.182.238 (talk) 16:52, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tom Waits

I removed the mention of "Hoist That Rag" in a paragraph concerning Tom Waits. That's the second time I see "Hoist That Rag" mentioned as a "political song" - could anybody explain what's so political in the song's lyrics? I've listened to the song many times and still haven't noticed anything that might allude to the Iraq war. MichalKotowski (talk) 18:28, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"You know what to do when the baby cries - hoist that rag!"
The song is about placating angry or disgruntled people with empty patriotism and flag-waving (the "rag" of course is the American flag - or perhaps any flag, the song's not specific - which is raised when "the baby cries" - i.e. when the people start to complain). And the result of empty patriotism is often support for a war that people later regret - as in the last verse of the song - "So just open fire / As you hit the shore / All is fair in love and war - hoist that rag"
I hope that was helpful in some way. I saw waits on his most recent European tour and hoist that rag was by far the highlight, such an amazing song. I haven't re-added the song to the article, i'll wait and see if i can find a source. peace Warchef (talk) 06:29, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a fresh look and criticism of the page

The article is far too expansive. Not every complaint wedged into a song qualifies. I think that if the recent additions are reverted to some point by User:Epson291 (or before) editing might begin from there, but the comment that every protest song is spawned by a movement? Sometimes, the movement might result from one. Pete Seeger singing a song from back in 1804; one, "Peg and Awl" was about the industrial revolution and the ways it affected the lives of people who once were secure in traditional job positions. Woody Guthrie, Leadbelly, and Pete Seeger should be strongly included from the first.

What is being protested? Examples? Fights for Labor Unions, those protesting what is promised them legally, but never appears, as in the Great Depression and the Okies. Protests about Wars, and The Draft, Bob Dylan, and topics that are so universal, as in Military Juntas and torture (as with Victor Jara's songs being covered by Seeger and Arlo Guthrie). Songs about the human condition, Civil Rights. What of the song written by Meerpol, for Billie Holliday, Strange Fruit, about hanging black men in the south? Phil Ochs, Joan Baez, Jackson Brown's song "Lives in the Balance" comes to mind- especially now[2]. Even CSNY, Stephen Stills, in the 1960s, "For What It's Worth", and Neil Young galvanizing CSNY to tour with "Looking for a Leader". Maybe a work group is in order. --leahtwosaints (talk) 23:53, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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