Talk:Waterboarding

See also: Talk:Waterboarding/Definition

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WP:AE#Waterboarding and Neutral Good ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)

People from the John Birch Society believe it is torture

"Waterboarding" Is Torture to Everybody Else in the World. There's more in the "Related Content" bar. GregorB (talk) 22:52, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Not what you would call a left wing group, how much of paleo-conservative thought do this group represent? ^{(Hypnosadist)} 03:13, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, not a left wing group by any stretch of imagination, and that's why it may be interesting. Right wing criticizes WB as torture too, unlike what some have argued here. JBS people generally don't like Bush and neocons, which makes them close to paleo-conservatives - but it's hard to say to what extent. GregorB (talk) 10:43, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

NPOV challenge

Classification as torture Waterboarding is considered to be torture by a wide range of authorities, including legal experts,[5][8][30] politicians, war veterans,[9][10] intelligence officials,[31] military judges,[12] and human rights organizations.[13][14] David Miliband, the United Kingdom Foreign Secretary described it as torture on 2008-07-19, and stated "the UK unreservedly condemns the use of torture."[32] Arguments have been put forward that it might not be torture in all cases, or that they are uncertain.[33][34][35][36] The U.S. State Department has recognized that other techniques that involve submersion of the head of the subject during interrogation would qualify as torture.[37]

The United Nations' Report of the Committee Against Torture: Thirty-fifth Session of November 2006, stated that state parties should rescind any interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding, that constitutes torture or cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment.[38]

Is there no debate that waterboarding is torture? If there is no debate, why are those engaged in it not indicted and still involved? Why have cases brought in court failed? If there exists a debate, why is it not fairly represented above? I challenge this section as a wp:npov violation. Is there consensus that this section is without NPOV balance? Raggz (talk) 01:09, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

We've discussed this quite a bit. There have indeed been only a handful of notable individuals who have expressed an opinion that waterboarding is not a form of torture, most of these being Republican politicians or talk show hosts from the United States. Please see Talk:Waterboarding/Definition for the actual sources. Badagnani (talk) 01:12, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Read the FAQ at the top of this page. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 01:13, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The US federal judiciary has not held waterboarding to be torture. The UN Security Council has jurisdiction for this question, and has not held waterboarding to be torture. There is no other judicial tribunal with jurisdiction. Why are the cases that were brought and failed not there? Raggz (talk) 05:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

President Theodore Roosevelt said it was torture and had a Major sentanced to 10 years hard labour for the crime, as Stephan says below the Bush Administration has used state secrets privilege to block any court cases on this matter. As for the UN the The United Nations' Report of the Committee Against Torture says waterboarding is torture, the UN Security council could bring a resolution calling for Sanctions or whatever against the US, but the US would just use its Veto (like it does to protect Isreal) so no-one bothers. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 23:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

International treaties, which prohibit the suffocation of a bound, inclined prisoner with water, are the "supreme law of the land," and it's fairly clear that the nation that insists on using it (the U.S.) will make whatever legal "end runs" necessary to keep doing it, and to avoid prosecution by claiming the U.S. practices a "less cruel" version, only on bad people, etc. However, the U.S. hasn't claimed it's not torture (in fact, only a few politicians and media figures have). Again, please read the FAQ and archives. Badagnani (talk) 05:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Moreover, AFAIK all existing legal opinions have all held waterboarding to be illegal. There are no recent legal decisions on this because it mostly happens in extralegal (or claimed extralegal) situations - for a well-known similar example see the Khalid El-Masri case, which was ultimately rejected not because there was any doubt about his illegal kidnapping and abuse, but due to the state secrets privilege. Moreover, this is not primarily a legal, but a semantic question. Court decisions are interesting evidence for a claim, but the absence is rarely evidence against something - there is no such decision about the composition of the moon, and still, it's not green cheese. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 06:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

International treaties are not the supreme law of the land. in the US it goes US Constitution, US laws, then US treaties. I think that what is in question is whether the legal definition of torture in the US includes water boarding. I don't see a problem with the article, except it does not give the claims made by those thinking it not torture. those claims are that it is not physically harmful, at least when done certain ways. Rds865 (talk) 22:15, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Original Research

"Waterboarding is torture. It causes severe physical suffering in the form of reflexive choking, gagging, and the feeling of suffocation. It may cause severe pain in some cases. If uninterrupted, waterboarding will cause death by suffocation. It is also foreseeable that waterboarding, by producing an experience of drowning, will cause severe mental pain and suffering. The technique is a form of mock execution by suffocation with water. The process incapacitates the victim from drawing breath, and causes panic, distress, and terror of imminent death. Many victims of waterboarding suffer prolonged mental harm for years and even decades afterward."

The Lead makes claims not supported by this source (such as brain damage). This is clearly original research. Please read wp:or. Please read wp:npov as well. Feel free to revert only if you have a relaible source. Raggz (talk) 05:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

We don't use just one source for this article; on the contrary, there are dozens if not more than 100. Nothing has been added that is not attested by these sources, most being medical in nature, from reputable organizations. Again, please read the FAQ. Have you? Badagnani (talk) 05:57, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

There is no citation for brain damage following the claim within the Lead. (Waterboarding certainly could lead to brain damage or death, if not medically supervised.) This lack of a citation means that wp:or has been violated. You likely can just add the correct cite. Fix it, please don't revert an OR violation. Raggz (talk) 06:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

May I suggest that if you believe it can be sourced, you look for a source (or maybe add a cn tag)? Deleting something you think can be sourced is pointy. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 06:25, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

That is one option, I also can delete material that has no source - but you cannot revert it unless you add one. You want me to do your editing? Then try saying please, or I don't know how, and I will then help. You don't just assign editing to me. I'm fine with it if you add supported text, I'm just editing here, no worries, everyone just relax.

It is disruptive editing to knowingly revert text deleted for being without a reliable source just because you want to. Don't do this. There is no problem reverting IF you add a reliable source. You should be careful though to qualify that these issues are not probable if medically supervised, so you need that cite as well. You now all know that there is no reliable source, so don't be a disruptive editor. Raggz (talk) 07:17, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

...and your source for the effects being improbable under medical supervision is where? [1] has neurological damage and possible death. I'll add it if I have some more time. However, the fact that oxygen deprivation can lead to brain damage is so entirely uncontroversial and well-known that a reference is rather redundant anyways. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:39, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Whatever "physician" was supervising such information-gathering sessions (training sessions excepted), I don't believe they would meet the definition, as since Ancient Greece physicians have been trained to do no harm, taking an oath to this effect. If a medical technician were present, they were probably medics, whose job was to say, "Better stop for now; it looks like he's had enough and could expire. Better wait ten minutes before resuming." Badagnani (talk) 07:45, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually they were members of the America Psychological Assoc Badagnani. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 02:59, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

There's currently a lively dispute within the APA's ranks whether their members should be prohibited from participating in such sessions in the future. Badagnani (talk) 03:10, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

No, there is no debate. The APA has come out against it very clearly:

• APA calls on U.S. government to ban waterboarding and other abusive interrogation techniques
• The Ethics Committee seeks illustrative examples as it writes a casebook and commentary on ethics and interrogations.
• New language more clearly expresses APA's no-torture, no-exceptions policy.
  --Fremte (talk) 14:59, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Look at the dates! It takes 100's of Doctors 5 years to decide aiding torture violates medical ethics? Pathetic! ^{(Hypnosadist)} 16:30, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

To be fair, no one ever expected a western democracy to revert to medieval methods in the first place. Though, again to be fair, it is the only western democracy that has judicial executions, and it has uniquely under-developed social programs and curiously religious politics for a western country. I won't pretend to understand America - I have visited but avoided being tortured (okay bad joke) - that country's behaviour puzzles many. It appears that professional associations are generally reactive and not pro-active, that is, they respond to issues that arise, they don't set out to set policies. They often parrot the government line because as I understand it, the USA gov't through it's Dept of War (or Defence or whatever) funds alot of psych research. It is also hard to get people to understand and support something when their salaries depend on not understanding it. --Fremte (talk) 17:03, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

"To be fair, no one ever expected a western democracy to revert to medieval methods in the first place" No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 18:33, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes i know, what do you expect from an organisation who's members over medicate children to make few extra dollars? ^{(Hypnosadist)} 03:53, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Source for brain damage [2] there are many more. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 19:55, 11 September 2008 (UTC)