Talk:Leo Tolstoy

Rostov characters in War and Peace

Ok so, the article says that in War and Peace Tolstoy based two of the Rostovs on his own parents, but I'm reading the Norton Critical Edition of War and Peace (1966) right now and the footnotes say that these particular characters are based on his grandparents, not his parents. The NCE is generally very reliable on these issues and since I can cite it as a source I think this article should be changed. Meaningful text is below, footnote from page 36:

"Count Ilya Rostov is a close copy of Tolstoy's grandfather, Count Ilya Andreevich Tolstoy, and his wife has much in common with the author's grandmother, Countess P.N. Tolstoy. --A.M."

I'm out, Perry —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.249.130.5 (talk) 03:56, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Double information

Virginia Woolf argued that Tolstoy was "the greatest of all novelists."

This is at the start of section 2 in the first paragraph and in the last paragraph of section 2.1 . I don't think two are necessary but I don't know which should be edited out for fear of mucking up where the information is most needed. Does anyone have a solution? Psychonautic (talk) 15:23, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Schopenhauer

There was, at one time, a paragraph regarding the enormous influence that Schopenhauer's writings had on Tolstoy. Someone saw fit to remove it. If anyone has ever read the fourth book of Schopenhauer's The World as Will and Representation, Vol.I, they would understand the motivation behind many of Tolstoy's actions and writings, which might otherwise remain a mystery. Of course, reading a book like this is probably the last thing a 21st century sophisticate would want to do. Tolstoy's turn to Christian asceticism and his fascination with monasticism, among other interests, can be readily comprehended after reading Schopenhauer's works. This especially applies to Schopenhauer's doctrine regarding the denial of the will and the subsequent selflessness and renunciation of the world. Tolstoy, himself, claimed that Schopenhauer had a life–changing effect on him. However, if the Wikipedia readers want to ignore this information, then so be it. Let it be a puzzle as to why Tolstoy wanted to renounce wife and property, dress as a beggar, and enter a monastery.Lestrade (talk) 20:02, 21 June 2008 (UTC)Lestrade

Following is the deleted information:

After reading Schopenhauer's The World as Will and Representation, Tolstoy gradually became converted to the ascetic morality that was praised in that book.

Do you know what this summer has meant for me? Constant raptures over Schopenhauer and a whole series of spiritual delights which I've never experienced before. ... no student has ever studied so much on his course, and learned so much, as I have this summer.

— Tolstoy's Letter to A.A. Fet, August 30, 1869

In Chapter VI of A Confession, Tolstoy quoted the final paragraph of Schopenhauer's work. In this paragraph, the German philosopher explained how the nothingness that results from complete denial of self is only a relative nothingness and not to be feared. Tolstoy was struck by the description of Christian, Buddhist, and Hindu ascetic renunciation as being the path to holiness. After reading passages such as the following, which abound in Schopenhauer's ethical chapters, Tolstoy, the Russian nobleman, chose poverty and denial of the will.

But this very necessity of involuntary suffering (by poor people) for eternal salvation is also expressed by that utterance of the Savior (Matthew 19:24): "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Therefore those who were greatly in earnest about their eternal salvation, chose voluntary poverty when fate had denied this to them and they had been born in wealth. Thus Buddha Sakyamuni was born a prince, but voluntarily took to the mendicant's staff; and Francis of Assisi, the founder of the mendicant orders who, as a youngster at a ball, where the daughters of all the notabilities were sitting together, was asked: "Now Francis, will you not soon make your choice from these beauties?" and who replied: "I have made a far more beautiful choice!" "Whom?" "La poverta (poverty)": whereupon he abandoned every thing shortly afterwards and wandered through the land as a mendicant.

— Schopenhauer, Parerga and Paralipomena, Vol. II, §170

Lestrade (talk) 15:30, 22 June 2008 (UTC)Lestrade

Removal of 'Neutrality disputed" template

Whoever placed this template has failed to mention here why. Until such time, it's seems apt to remove it: it can of course be restored as soon as appropriate. Wingspeed (talk) 00:02, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

The article needs citation. DORC (talk) 13:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree. In which case, the citation template is the appropriate one. Wingspeed (talk) 15:46, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Birth date?

Is his birth date the 9th of September (as stated in the intro. paragraph) or the 28th of August, as per the infobox?--Hinakana (talk) 10:00, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

List of works

Why is there no list of works? john k (talk) 00:30, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

It had gotten so long that it was broken out into its own list: Bibliography of Leo Tolstoy. But there should still be a link in the table of contents, in my opinion! I'll go add that. --JayHenry (talk) 00:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

communism?

"Ever more oppressed by the apparent contradiction between his preaching of communism and the easy life he led under the regime of his wife"

Tolstoy was never a communist in the Marxist sense, though he was a communalist. Is that what the author wants to say?

Also, "Only in 1901 did the Synod excommunicate him. This act, widely but rather unjudiciously resented both at home and abroad, merely registered a matter of common knowledge – that Tolstoy had ceased to be a follower of the Orthodox Church."

unjudiciously? this is explicit narration and completely subjective.

Gay man

Leo Tolstoy was gay. His marriage, children and religious beliefs were a cover. You will not find openly gay people in Tolstoy's time because the consequences were too horrible to risk. Since the 17th century, Russia has been very oppressive toward gay people. Near the end of his life his beliefs on sexuality became more conservative at the same time his affection for men became more open so much so that his wife declared Tolstoy and his disciple, Vladimir Chertkov, lovers.

"A full 35 or 40 percent of major western authors from the beginning to the present must have been gay. It would be very safe to assume." - Harold Bloom, literary critic [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.253.209.165 (talk) 21:20, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Plagiarism Text from elsewhere

I've found some plagiarized passages that were added by Ghirlandajo in August 2006 in this series of edits. Quite a bit of it seems to have been taken word for word from A History of Russian Literature from Its Beginnings to 1900 by D.S. Mirsky. For example, this ...

Tolstoy's diaries reveal that the desires of the flesh were active in him until an unusually advanced age; and the desire for expansion, the desire that gave life to War and Peace, the desire for the fullness of life with all its pleasure and beauty, never died in him. We catch few glimpses of this in his writings, for he subjected them to a strict and narrow discipline.

... was copied from page 309.

It would be a lot of work to go through the whole edit to find out how much was copied from elsewhere. We could instead either remove everything that was added during those edits (or anything else that looks suspicious because of the writing, though I think that would comprise a sizable chunk of the article), or we could revert to the version just before Ghirlandajo made that series of edits.

Any thoughts? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 14:43, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

1. Someone should check all his work very carefully.
2. He should be promptly removed from the position of trust that I assume he holds.
3. He should be warned about his future conduct.
4. None of the above will happen.
5. Happy new year.Grace Note (talk) 09:22, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

The work by Mirsky, of which I used to own a copy, is out of copyright. So, if properly identified, I would think it ranks as a perfectly authoritative source, allowing for the fact, of course, that a lot of Tolstoy scholarship has flowed under the bridge since. Would have thought the position is much the same as that of the 1911 Britannica, which formed the original basis of much of Wikipedia. In fact, come to think of it, Mirsky may well have written the Britannica article. Just checked: he didn't, but it may well have been a close-run thing. Certainly, though, anything lifted from Mirsky needs to be identified. Wingspeed (talk) 10:19, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

There is no dispute about whether it's a good source. Grace Note (talk) 04:29, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Haven't suggested there was:) Wingspeed (talk) 06:51, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

The issue isn't copyright so much as plagiarism, Wingspeed. I'll leave a note for Ghirlandajo. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 05:42, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

No reason to treat this much differently than the 1911 content. Since Ghirla did cite Mirsky in the edits it's unclear that he was trying to present the work to the world as "his own" rather than Mirsky's in the first place. --JayHenry (talk) 00:25, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Upon further inspection I notice that Ghirla did what's always been appropriate with reusing PD content. [2]. No plagiarism ever occurred here. --JayHenry (talk) 00:27, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

(ec) I know that some editors feel it's okay to copy from public-domain works so long as there's a credit at the end, but I feel it's poor form, especially when it comes to an article about such an important writer. I've left Ghirla a note to ask if he can identify the passages taken from elsewhere; then we can decide which bits to leave as quotations, and which to reword. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 00:31, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Definitely agree it'd be best practice to get it inline cited and stuff. Worth clarifying that it's not really plagiarism however. Agree that it's poor form, especially now that it's 2009 and, like you say, such an important article.--JayHenry (talk) 00:35, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Jay. Ghirlandajo, I must apologize for calling this plagiarism, as I can see there's a credit to Mirsky at the end of the article. The issue is simply about having copied text, not of having tried to claim authorship of it. I've left this note on your talk page too. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 00:40, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Tolstoi and French

As far as I know, Tolstoi was more fluent in French than in Russian. I know, this may sound bizare, but in these days, the Russian nobleness spoke almost exclusively French at home, and the children were reared by French "bonnes". Several of my Russian friends have told me (on separate occasions) that some writing of Tolstoi in Russian are not grammatically perfect and the style at times resembles that of a westerner translating original French (or German) into Russian. One thing is certain: Tolstoi spoke French as well (if not better) as any highly educated Frenchman of his time. His correspondence with various French writers and aristocrats proves it. And many parts of "War and Peace" were originally written in French. I think this connection between Tolstoi and the French language is worth mentioning. In those days, many French authors were in the business of writing sagas revolving around the psychology of the characters rather on the style (e.g. Balzac, Flaubert, Dumas, Zola).