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==July 2009==
==July 2009==
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jade Goody/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Cuisine of the Thirteen Colonies/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Atlantic City – Brigantine Connector/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/ToeJam & Earl/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Real Adventures of Jonny Quest/archive2}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Howie Morenz/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Girl Is Mine/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Naked Brothers Band: The Movie/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Naked Brothers Band: The Movie/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/4 Minutes (Madonna song)/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/4 Minutes (Madonna song)/archive1}}

Revision as of 06:57, 6 July 2009

July 2009

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 06:57, 6 July 2009 [1].

Jade Goody

Nominator(s): --MarkusBJoke (talk) 18:36, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because...the article is sourced good, and its overall standard is high in accordance to the FA criterias. think its time for it to become a possible Featured article. MarkusBJoke (talk) 18:36, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

images File:OKMag.jpg fails to significantly increase reader's understanding, fails WP:NFCC, hence FAC Fasach Nua (talk) 21:00, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Was the significant contributor consulted before this nomination? Dabomb87 (talk) 21:12, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. Uncited statements; misattributed references (www.thisislondon.co.uk is the website of the Evening Standard, not a paper called This Is London, ref 1 gives the wrong publication date…); poor grammar ("Goody had become involved in vicious fight" etc); rather dubious claims ("Christian religious beliefs"? She converted three weeks before she died); a dubious statement sourced solely to a (broken) Yahoo link – and that's just on a quick skim. Please withdraw this FAC unless you're prepared to clean it up top-to-bottom – it needs a lot of work. – iridescent 17:23, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 06:57, 6 July 2009 [2].

Cuisine of the Thirteen Colonies

Nominator(s): Jeremy (blah blah) 18:28, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because it is an extremely well written and researched article on the historical cuisine of British Colonial America. Jeremy (blah blah) 18:28, 25 June 2009 (UTC) As a note, the primary editor of this article is not available for comment. I have nominated it on the strength of the article as it stands now. --Jeremy (blah blah) 09:30, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

images Given the subject of the article, I think the first image should be the food not the colonies, some of the images are stunning, and could really pull the reader into the article Fasach Nua (talk) 21:02, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm slightly hesitant about such a choice. Wouldn't it mean we'd have to choose among any of the four closely related yet distinct culinary cultures?
Peter Isotalo 12:33, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You could use a montage such as File:Greeks.JPG Fasach Nua (talk) 12:57, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Right now, you are missing Maryland and Pennsylvania. There is a lot of information on sea food, especially Oysters, being harvested out of the Chesapeake Bay by Marylanders. There is information suggesting that the St. Mary's River, which is home to the first settlement in Maryland, was filled with Oysters. Pennsylvania also had a lot of information. I find it a little worrisome that Delaware is limited to Quakers, when they were a minority. There are many, many German cuisines that were brought into Pennsylvania, and the ethnicity in the Colonies was not predominantly English (it was made up of Natives, English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Germans, French, and Dutch). Ottava Rima (talk) 20:18, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As for the English statement, yes there were other cultures, but the Colonies were under English rule and as such were influenced as a whole by English culture. Many of those that also came from other countries were people who had fled the English empire, moved to those other countries and then went to the Colonies. Additionally, the Scots, Irish, Welsh, were part of the English empire at the time. The French were not part of the colonies, especially at first they were "enemies" of the colonies and were actually pushed out such as the Acadians who were pushed to New Orleans, which is not one of the origional colonies. Regionalism which is found in the article addresses some of the local differences. When talking about any "cuisine" one must talk in broad strokes until you get to the local level where you can speak of the regional differences to which you are refering.--Chef Tanner (talk) 13:43, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I still feel that a section would be needed to discuss Maryland and Pennsylvanian cuisine before I can support - one would have a great deal to discuss about seafood (and pork, as Baltimore was known as "pig town" since its early years) and Pennsylvania had a large German and Dutch population (and there was a large Dutch population in New York). There are things like Scrapple are said to be "of the Delaware region" when they really came from Pennsylvania. Since this is based on colonies, I think you should put items into their colony of origin and deal with all of the colonies. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:03, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Question to Ottava Rima - Please do not take this the wrong way, but could you provide a reliable source supporting your assertion about scrapple being from PA? The actual article on scrapple has serious flaws in regards to its citations, most are questionably reliable at best. The sources provided in this article are very reliable texts on the subject written by notable authors in the field of historical cuisines. I understand this is a small thing but I want to understand you position on the matter. --Jeremy (blah blah) 19:33, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I will look for reliable sources later. I am from the Mason Dixon border and have eaten scrapple my whole life and, like most people, have been subjected to the long, detailed history of the area and various things like that. This seems to be a decent source. Another. And another. Try here for more. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:07, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
From these sources, I don't see any reason to correct the article. It says that scrapple originated in the Delaware region, which is part of PA. Simply saying that it originates in PA would make the article less, not more, accurate. And it seems as if all the sources that are linked to directly refer to much more modern recent history of scrapple. I also don't really agree that the article is a history of the cuisine of individual states. It would result in equating political boundaries with cultural boundaries which is never a satisfactory solution. Peter Isotalo 11:02, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I take offense to that, being from the area. First of all, the area is DelMarVa, not the "Delaware Region" if you are going to call it anything. Delaware was originally part of Maryland. Secondly, Philadelphia is not part of the Delaware region, nor is the region between that and York, which is where Scrabble is said to come from. It is on this side of the hanna, not the other, so it would be Pennsylvania and only Pennsylvania. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:59, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to offend in any way. Is it only "Delaware region" that is the problem, though? I'm only asking because as far as I understand it "The Delaware Valley" focuses mostly on what is today western PA. Peter Isotalo 21:38, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The offense is not real. :P But yeah, the Delaware Valley is problematic. Why not just said Mid Atlantic, swap out some of the Quaker info for generic German (as the Quakers were the minority of the Germans) and then discuss some of the seafood dishes and the rest that the original colonists relied on, especially in the two bay regions. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:45, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If we're to swap out terms and state different facts we need alternative sources relevant to the time period. Are you thinking of any in specific ones?
Peter Isotalo 13:37, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I just did a good search, and the first one that popped up was a source that you have currently - Oliver's book. For Maryland, here is this and this (that book would be harder to get). I seem to get quite a few hits when I type in "Colonial ___ food" (put the state in). Here is another source. Here is another and another. Good luck. I'm just pointing to the tip of the iceberg. Also, that book by Oliver has a lot more than what you have introduced into the article so far. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:01, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Maryland and PA aren't excluded, as was the initial complaint, and it's been argued that a degree of generalization is always necessary. There's always more literature on just about any topic, and everthing doesn't need to be included. So what exactly is missing in terms of comprehensiveness?
Peter Isotalo 19:24, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question What's your source for "One of the icons of American culture, the apple pie, had its origin in East Anglian cooking traditions", which may be true but sounds extremely dubious (and is currently unsourced). East Anglia in this period was about 50% Fens and 50% rolling hills, and while Norfolk Biffins did grow there, there's no particular tradition of apple pie in the area (most traditional East Anglian recipes involve the ubiquitous mustard, lamb and turkeys, ). Not saying it's not true, but it certainly needs a source. – iridescent 23:05, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Everything on East Anglian tradition and the four regional cultures is based on Fischer and is footnoted as such. Peter Isotalo 07:39, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Fair enough; follow-up question – "As many New Englanders were originally from Great Britain, game hunting was a familiar beneficial skill when they immigrated to the New World" (again unsourced) seems a bit of a non sequitur. Why would being British have anything to do with game hunting? – iridescent 14:49, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Statement tweaked. That specific part is Christopher's so I can't vouch for it personally, but as far as I can tell, the sourcing is there since there's a footnote only three sentences down. Peter Isotalo 18:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Btw, the apple pie caption refers to the East Anglian tradition of oven baking, not pies with any specific ingredients. This connection is also explained in the text. Peter Isotalo 14:50, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, per Ottava Rima. The fact that Pennsylvania and especially Maryland, which is not mentioned at all outside of "In the mid-17th century a second wave of British immigrants began arriving in North America, settling mainly around Chesapeake Bay in Virginia and Maryland", are missing means that the article is not comprehensive enough. Therefore, the article does not meet all of the FA criteria, and I cannot support at this time. NW (Talk) 15:33, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • PA is mentioned both directly and indirectly (through the Delaware Valley). Maryland straddles the two regions mentioned here, so there doesn't seem to be any point in trying to establish some type of unique Maryland-specific cuisine. Neither state is "missing" other than in the sense of being explicitly mentioned by name. Peter Isotalo 14:50, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Agreed, remember that territorial borders in the colonies were not were they are now or even when the United States was formed. Many of the states today were regional areas settled around geographical regions such as the Hudson River Valley or the Delaware River Valley. The political differentiations that would become the eastern states came later. Also, areas that eventually became other eastern and mid-western states changed ownership over the course of the colonies' and United States evolution, two examples of this include the Massachusetts Bay Colony which originally encompassed the areas that became the states of Rhode Island, New Hampshire and Maine and claimed parts of what later became Michigan and Wisconsin while what once was the Colony of Virginia became Virginia, West Virgina, Tennessee and also claimed what became Ohio and Michigan, Indiana and what is now Western Pennsylvania. See the maps below to see what I mean--Jeremy (blah blah) 18:46, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • I am keeping an eye on this discussion, but Ottava Rima's posts have me convinced, at least for the time being, that more could be added to this article. NW (Talk) 00:33, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Examples of colonial and state claims in English Colonial America
  • Comment A minor problem with the article is the clumsy use of the word "British". In most instances the word can and should be replaced with "English" (the exception being that it is fine to refer to the London-based monarchy and state as such after 1707). If you're gonna talk about Welsh, Irish, Scots-Irish and Scottish (Highland and Lowland), you ought to do so separately, as they are different peoples and were regarded as such at the time by both the English in England and the English in North America. :) Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 01:00, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I switched to "British Isles" for the initial paragraph and used "English" instead of "British" for the Virginian settlers. The rest is best described as "British", though, since the Gaelic migration occured under British rule. There were many Gaelic speakers (according to Fischer even among some slaves), but English remained the dominant language. Peter Isotalo 19:24, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I'm Australian. I've just found this. I haven't got a clue what the Thirteen Clonies are, and my vocab doesn't stretch to "cuisine". OK! You have told me in the first sentence of the article where the cuisine of the Thirteen Colonies comes from, but you haven't told me what it is. I don't mean that you haven't given me a menu. I mean that you haven't told me what the article is about. Don't presume on my knowledge. You are writing an encyclopedia. Amandajm (talk) 03:49, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 06:57, 6 July 2009 [3].

Atlantic City – Brigantine Connector

Nominator(s): Dough4872 (talk) 18:24, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because I have put in a lot of work into improving this article. I first brought it to Good Article status and then took it through an A-class review in which many major issues were resolved. The article is well-sourced and covers the aspects of the road broadly. If this passes, it will be the second FA for WP:NJSCR. Dough4872 (talk) 18:24, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment I'm surprised this wasn't raised at the GA/A-class reviews, but I am really uncomfortable with using a set of Google Maps directions as a reliable source, especially on multiple occasions as done in this article. While it may well be accurate, there's no way of knowing that the route as suggested by Gmaps is the route, the whole route and nothing but the route; that the measurements are accurate and not rounded up/down; and, most significantly, that the route as suggested by Gmaps won't be subject to change whenever there are construction works in the area. Surely there must be reliable sources – the contract for the road's construction, for example, or the Department of Transportation's own publicity – that specify the length and places served? – iridescent 18:40, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There are other sources out there, such as the New Jersey Department of Transportation's straight-line diagrams (SLD) and a map of the connector by the South Jersey Transportation Authority (SJTA, which owns the road), which are also used in the route description. However, Google Maps was the best source I could find for which the mileage of the "whole" connector can be determined, as the SLD has the road going off at one of the exit ramps (This issue came up in the A-Class review). I believe that Yahoo Maps has mileage to the nearest hundreth, but to find the exact mileage would requiring using a GIS program, which I do not have the capability of using. Otherwise, I mainly used Google Maps as a reference to show the physical surroundings around the route that cannot be seen in the SLD or the map by the SJTA. Dough4872 (talk) 18:52, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – I have put a lot of work into the article as well and helped get it to GA-status, but I do not think it is ready for FA-status. There are some errors in the article that need to be fixed (which I updated and were then reverted) and some more information about the construction and its controversies can be included. –Dream out loud (talk) 01:34, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If you know of this information, and it can be accurately be desicribed with reliable sources (Alps' Roads is not a reliable source), then you may add it in. (In addition, if you truly feel your version of the exit list is the most accuarate in describing the route, you may undo my revert). In my reckoning of the exit list, I tried to describe it from south to north progression following the lettered exits (which goes against the SLD). Dough4872 (talk) 19:18, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I see you have already added the changes, we can stay with your version for now. Dough4872 (talk) 20:08, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 06:57, 6 July 2009 [4].

ToeJam & Earl

Nominator(s): bridies (talk) 15:59, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]


My first, tentative FA nomination; I think it meets the criteria. I believe it has enough content and research to satisfy the "comprehensive" criterion and any issues with the prose and layout can be addressed. bridies (talk) 15:59, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 02:12, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments - A very respectable first effort - well done! I've done some copyediting, and have a few points to raise besides:
    • The lead describes it as an action game, but the last paragraph of the article seems to suggest that its genre is disputed or unclear. How can this be reconciled?
      • Action game is the broadest term, and probably includes the others as subgenres. If you think it's problematic, I'd be inclined simply to remove the mention of genre from the first sentence. bridies (talk) 04:17, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not sure that the last paragraph of the lead, excepting the first sentence, adds much to the article. It seems that rather than just repeat the praise and criticism with which reviewers greeted the rerelease, you could either focus on how reviewers felt that the game held up over time or focus on differences between its initial reception and its 2006 reception.
      • I added another sentence on how they felt it held up over time. I'm a bit wary of putting too much weight on the re-release, as the game was probably a much bigger deal when it was originally released (whereas the re-release often just got a mini-review in a "retro round-up" article or such). bridies (talk) 04:17, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I echo David's points about the prose; I've done some, but I think getting two or three other copyeditors to go over it would be beneficial. In particular, parts of the article suffer from a pronounced case of Thesaurusitis and other parts are verbose and awkward. I'll try to do a little more later in the process, but the prose is definitely the biggest current sticking point to my supporting.
    • The phrase "over-the-top appropriations" is in quotation marks, but there's no indication who it is that called them that. This is also true of numerous other phrases throughout the article; in most cases, I'd suggest paraphrasing and losing the quotation marks entirely.
    • "The game's levels are randomly generated..." If memory serves, this is true only of one play mode.
    • The first paragraph of "Development" could use some dates for signposting.
    • The article seems awfully short for an FA about a prominent and successful video game. That said, there are no gaps obvious to me; I'll defer to Fuchs and the other video game writers on comprehensiveness issues.
      • I would expect the article to be shorter than most because of its age. Like most 16-bit console games there's no real plot and thus no plot summary/section. The gameplay is pretty simple although its innovation means it's been commented on a fair bit. I will expand the reception section with a wider representation of sources though. It's hard to know what the length "should" be because older video games aren't well represented in terms of FAs. The main exceptions are hugely successful and influential games life Space Invaders or Donkey Kong and ToeJam & Earl doesn't really have that sort of status, successful though it was. bridies (talk) 04:17, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That's it. Again, good job on what you've done so far. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 20:08, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. --Ealdgyth - Talk 14:23, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I removed those sources. With regards to Sega-16 (which isn't reliable) I was citing Johnson's comments but the IGN Funkotronics source pretty much has it covered. bridies (talk) 08:16, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 06:57, 6 July 2009 [5].

The Real Adventures of Jonny Quest

Nominator(s): ZeaLitY [ DREAM - REFLECT ] 02:22, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I've admittedly spent an embarrassingly long time on this article after getting some free time this month. I'll summarize the changes since the last FAC:

  • Researched a ton of new and obscure academic search databases and newspaper sources, rounding out references to 145.
  • Found good international information on the marketing push and series airing in other countries.
  • Reorganized the critical reception section to go in order of comparisons to classic Quest, premise success, characters and cast, and animation and sound quality.
  • Per my new searches, added a lot of new information to the article, and reorganized the first history and development section. I only touch on the biggest changes to the original Quest premise there now, having moved some character and premise commentary down to the Creative Premise and Characters sections.
  • User:SandyGeorgia helped tremendously to fix up and format references.
  • Placed punctuation outside quotation marks where appropriate.
  • Added an image to the marketing section and replaced images with clearer versions.
  • Got rid of the awkward reliance on quotations from the sources; the article should read much more easily. There are still several quotes; I kept some since they made sentences more succinct and concise versus paraphrasing.

If there are any loose ends...

  • Haven't touched some of the numbers (twenty-six instead of 26), so right now, numeric numbers include only huge dollar figures, character ages, and some figures in the Quest World Adventure paragraph. I have no opinion on which is better, so if it'd be better to replace words with figures, I'm ready.
  • I have about five sources that I'm still waiting on through interlibrary loan. To my knowledge, three reference the show's animation in passing, while the other two are mostly about the marketing drive (which will probably add nothing new). I don't think these sources will radically change the article or warrant a breach of stability in the FA criteria. (There are still 8-9 web link sources about the show that will probably never be recovered and aren't in the Wayback Machine. They aren't used in the article, obviously.)
  • I'm trying to get a free image replacement for the digital style guide in the marketing section. I own the physical style guide for the series, but I'm not sure if I could take a picture of it (since it's mostly art assets) and pass it off as public domain. There are other options, like pictures of action figures or other merchandise, and I plan to try and e-mail a staffer for the show in case they have any items of interest that they can make a free image with. (This may not pertain to the FA so much as it will to an effort to get Today's Featured Article.)

There's probably more that I'm forgetting. Anyway, I'm glad to be bringing this back, since I feel it represents what one empowered Wikipedian can do (well, with a university subscription to academic search engines and libraries, too). WP:TV doesn't seem too fleshed out, so I based some of my style decisions on convention at WP:VG, which I'm more familiar with. ZeaLitY [ DREAM - REFLECT ] 02:22, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • First, welcome back, Zeality. It is always good to see such major contributors coming back from long breaks. Anyways, could you clarify what QuestFan.com/wiki is, its role in the article, as well as your role with QuestFan.com, with direct reference to Wikipedia:Reliable sources? I ask because it seems to be a wiki that is maintained by you and I would like assurance that it satisfies the criteria for reliable sources. Thanks. --maclean 06:37, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's a fan site I set up in 2007 coinciding with my research on the series. It's much like the Chrono Compendium, which served (for Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross, and Radical Dreamers) as a repository for any hard to find information or images that were notable enough to be included in the Wikipedia articles but would never, ever be found in third-party sources. WP:VG maintains...
Okay, it did maintain that fan sites could be admitted if they offered unique, notable information which seemed legitimate to peer reviewers, but it seems that's been excised, so I'll have to ask why at the project. It was useful because in WP:VG, a plethora of video games are made and promoted in Japan only. When it comes to translations of commercial materials, interviews, development history, or other information about the games, the community has to rely on fan translation. This was used to improve Chrono Trigger dramatically; its development section went from being nearly nonexistent to a core part of the article. Another issue is that video games, defunct television shows, etc. are usually pop culture affairs that don't receive the treatment of serious academic subjects or news events, and so references and information are hard to come by. The Chrono Compendium would host the translations and allow a citation in these cases. While some people have questioned this use, WP:VG would almost always support this stance.
I was going to use that rationale for QuestFan, but it seems WP:VG has pulled the appearance of consensus out from under me by removing that part of their guidelines. I've basically used the site to archive Internet and print sources related to the show. Rather than call everything into question all at once, I'll go ahead and make a preliminary defense of some items:
  • #4: This is the writer's bible to the show, written by Peter Lawrence and edited by Glenn Leopold; on the page, both versions are juxtaposed. These became available after the show's cancellation through photocopies auctioned on Ebay. There are currently no auctions for it to back up this claim with some visual evidence; sorry. The bible is incredibly important to the creative premise and character sections of the article. While these sections could stand without referencing (anyone who's watched the show would immediately recognize the assertions), there are a few quotes and excerpts that would need some kind of note. It's also used elsewhere in a few cases in the article.
  • #6: This is a document that writer Lance Falk wrote in 1997 and published on AOL's Quest newsgroup while it was still up. It's used for much of the second season changes. Again, any fan of the show knows that all the assertions in that section are correct, but it is used in a couple other places in the article thanks to its look at the show's development. You'll notice the attitude and writing style are backed up by reference #7, which is a true trade journal interview with Falk. Lance Falk is on Myspace and is able to be contacted; I spoke with him a few times in 2007 to make sure some of the facts were straight about the second season changes, although I didn't self-publish this stuff; it was just asking for him to fact-check. (I also asked yesterday if he can fact-check the article in its current state.) Falk appears on the classic Jonny Quest DVD 2004 release as an expert on the subject, so you can match up his picture there with the one for his Myspace profile if you need some proof it's him.
  • #35: Fan FAQ published in 1998 again in the AOL newsgroup, containing a quote from Larry Houston and one from Lance Falk.
  • #37, #75, #76: These are AOL Quest newsgroup commentaries for specific episodes posted by Lance Falk, used for a couple season two changes assertions (again, recognizable by fans of the show).
  • #42: Francois Lord's comments posted to the AOL newsgroup in 1996-1997. He's name-checked in the article as a QuestWorld animator, and his story corroborates what happened to Buzz F/X (it filed for bankruptcy thanks to the difficulty of the Quest contract) and also Sherry Gunther's / Alberto Menache's criticisms. It's sort of an important reference because it gives an in-depth look at the hellish schedule the animators worked on.
  • #70: Vehicles. This is just an in-universe encyclopedia page at QuestFan with images of the vehicles described in the sentence referencing it.
  • #78: These are fan questions I submitted to Lance Falk in 2007. There's a lot of unique information on that page, but I haven't used it in the article because it's unabashed original research, and though I could argue it from the same point, I don't want to push my luck.
  • #80: These are fan questions from the Jonny Quest mailing list given to Michael Benyaer. Since they never were part of AOL's newsgroup or anything like that, I've avoided using his answers except to back up another statement about playing characters of different ethnicity. (I'd love to use the entire thing and talk about how he got a position with the show, but again, not pushing my luck.)
  • #81: Same story, but for Quinton Flynn. These are old questions from 2000, but self-published. I used it for a fact about how he landed the role.
  • #90: This is a link to the digital style guide. It was very necessary before I found newspaper articles about the style guide, so it could go if needed. The link contains images of every portion of the guide, including its art.
  • #123: These are two corroborating anecdotal accounts of the parade in California. The parade is mentioned in reliable print sources, but not the exact nature of the float (an elephant chasing a jeep, as shown in this promotional art). Used it here to preempt any "citation neededs" about the float structure.
  • #139: These are a few Q&As with Peter Lawrence, the show's creator, that I made in August 2007. This is honestly a holy grail coup for fans, and contains tons of valuable information about the show's early development...all of which I've avoided adding to the article, because it's ultimately original research. Lawrence is a busy man and hasn't been able to correspond since then, though he provided Takashi's contacts for me too (Takashi's also been busy, but I haven't recently tried to contact either of them for more information). Anyway, I just use it to defend the Race cowboy accent criticisms under critical reception, since that's an iconic controversy to fans of the show. It's heartbreaking not to add his other information, but ah well.
As an aside, I hope any reviewers might sympathize with the external link to QuestFan, since it contains extra, MediaWiki-maintained information such as these original Q&As that add a wealth of perspective to the show's development. Perhaps readers will enjoy the extra information there. ZeaLitY [ DREAM - REFLECT ] 07:42, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I asked WP:VG, and it seems that the convention now is to cite the original Japanese interview in those cases, but with a link to the fan site translation page embedded in the reference. This might reinforce some of my usage of QuestFan here. ZeaLitY [ DREAM - REFLECT ] 02:15, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have a problem with QuestFan.com acting as a hosting service for the sake of convenience, but such cases I don't think QuestFan should be listed as the publisher (eg. QuestFan isn't the publisher of the writer's bible are they?). --maclean 02:18, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Removed. ZeaLitY [ DREAM - REFLECT ] 03:52, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
For some of those references, this template may help: Template:Cite usenet (instead of Cite web). maclean 04:26, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Tested it out with one reference and it worked fine, but there's only one hitch: AOL's "newsgroup" was more like a proprietary newsgroup operated in the show's space (which you'd find using keywords, etc.) and so I'm not sure what to put for the "| newsgroup =" designation. (Anything in that field is automatically Wikilinked, so I can't just put "AOL", and neither do I really have a URL for that newsgroup space, since it was totally proprietary...I'm trying to think back, and I can't even remember if stuff located through AOL's keywords, etc. even had viewable URLs). Should I leave it blank, or stick "on AOL" after the author field or somewhere else in the text? ZeaLitY [ DREAM - REFLECT ] 04:56, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I see. Maybe that wasn't such a good suggestion. maclean 05:25, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I guess the biggest question is regarding the reliability of the newsgroup posts and the commentary provided through Questfan.com. As far as I'm aware, the usenet posts are susceptible to error (impersonation - how to verify x actually wrote that, lack of fact-checking, etc.). If Lance Falk is available, would a Open-source Ticket Request regarding the veracity of the posts be sufficient to make such usenet posts reliable? (or am I way out of my league?) maclean 02:08, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. As far as the suggestion above about OTRS validating the information, I'm not convinced that's a good solution. As a general rule, self-published information isn't a great idea, and we should ideally be looking for other sources of the information, that's verifiable. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:45, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Arbitrary Section Break

Sorry, things have gotten a little busy again. I'm going to re-list the outstanding comments here under one list to help me focus. I'll then try to address the criticisms and re-list the remaining questionable references for further review.

maclean

  • ► Reduce use of newsgroup and other third-party references.
    • Addressed under next section break.

Ealdgyth

  • ✔ Check with deadlink checker. One link fixed, one unnecessary magazine search link removed.
  • ► Review http://questfan.com/Page/Main_Page.html, http://www.incentivecentral.org/consumers/casestudies/Jonny_Quest_Ratings_Soar_with_RealLife_Adventure_Contest.844.html, and http://www.mindspring.com/~questworld-online/unreleased.html.
    • 1) For QuestFan, I'd rather deal with specific citations than debate the general use, since I feel it can have value as a mirror for certain important information (this has passed in a few of my other FAs, and my usage still has provisional support at WP:VG. 2) Incentive Central seems to be a legitimate non-profit organization, even if self-published. I've tried to find something in the Wiki rules about using corporate press releases or financial statements that would get close to this, but I've come up empty-handed. Anyone have a test or something I can run this through? 3) This website has pictures of the Galoob toy catalogue from 1996 showing the unproduced figures. I wasn't sure how to cite a catalogue, and I ventured that perhaps the images might speak for themselves. I can easily replace it with a catalogue cite (since the images aren't that hard to find independently and aren't even really emphasized in the article), but I'll need a proper cite template. Would cite journal cover this?
      • The QuestFan site gives me several concerns. One is reprinting copyrighted material. (Everything in the US is copyrighted at creation, so to reprint anything past 1976 that isn't US government, you need permission). Also, not to be insulting, but the whole site is a fan site and that is another concern. Third, it publishes information from newsgroups, etc. that are a concern. I realise that the site has a lot of information that probably isn't available elsewhere, but I do not think it can pass WP:RS, quite honestly. It's going to be an issue, especially given it's heavy use in this article. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:12, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • The catalog, try cite journal, that'd probably be closest. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:12, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Continued under next section break.
  • ✔ Newspapers titles in the references should be in italics. If you're using {{cite news}}, use the work field for the title of the paper, and the publisher field for the name of the actual company that publishes the paper.
  • ✔ Current ref 70 (Vehicles) is lacking a publisher Removed unnecessary vehicles reference.
  • ✔ Likewise current ref 87 (Johnny Quest digital style guide..)
  • ✔ http://kishikat.com/zone/lanceint.html is a reprint of a magazine article. First, do they have premission to reprint the copyrighted article?
  • ✔ Likewise... http://www.toonamiarsenal.com/download/jquest.php do they have permission to host the videos? And the way you've got it referenced, it implies that Toonami Digital arsenal is the publisher of the videos, i.e. they created them, is that the case? Removed the reference, since the statement (TRAJQ aired on Toonami) doesn't need a citation anyway.
  • ✔ Current ref 35 (Winnie Lim's ...) is lackign a publisher

Okay, it'll be easier for me to mentally track now. I'll get started on these. ZeaLitY [ DREAM - REFLECT ] 20:25, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Another break for references

Here are the remaining QuestFan references:

  • 4 - Writer's bible. If the website's the only issue, it could be removed from the citation, with the publisher being Hanna-Barbera. If the authenticity in question, Lance Falk can vouch, and I even sent the link to Peter Lawrence, who hadn't kept the original draft after leaving Turner. It was "leaked" in the form of photocopies on Ebay, and sometimes still pops up as an auction. A lot of quotes and the creative sections hinge on it, so I'll take pains to prove its authenticity if needed.
  • Winnie Lim's FAQ - I've removed it from the article, but I've left the statement it affirmed; "Time Warner's acquisition of Turner negated the separate series idea, leading to the episodes' release as the second season of Real Adventures." This was verified by Larry Houston in that FAQ and Lance Falk in his own writings, and the revised writer's bible is entitled The New Jonny Quest, so I'm hoping we can get away without a fact tag for this statement.
  • 38 - Francois Lord's comments on QuestWorld, mostly covering the process at Buzz F/X. These offer an interesting look into the history of the project and why QuestWorld was panned (and also why Buzz F/X went into bankruptcy), but if they absolutely had to go, the article could still stand without his notes. He is able to be reached through his personal website and Gmail in case it's relevant. Sadly, it probably would fail the self-publishing self test since he's making claims about third parties (Buzz F/X).
  • 71 - Lance Falk's Semi-FAQ. I was able to cut it down to two uses: "Falk defended his portrayal as giving her realistic, human fears, such as claustrophobia." "Falk felt that virtual reality paradoxically undermined the show's "strong connection to reality", and suggested that after so many dangerous incidents Dr. Quest would have simply turned the system off." This is self-published material on the self, and so it may pass the five stipulations at WP:V.
  • 128 - Peter Lawrence e-mail defending Race Bannon's accent. Based on WP:V, this may pass the five self-published stipulations, assuming #2 doesn't cover fictional characters and that the authenticity is not in doubt. If you whois PL's old site http://gealepeterlawrence.com/ at Godaddy, you can find his e-mail, which is how I did it when I originally contacted him about the show in 2007. I can also provide an image of the e-mail and its header information; they're still in my e-mail's inbox. This cite also now doubles as helping to prove that there was fan criticism over the accents; that assertion's cite was lost with Lance Falk's semi-FAQ.

Notifying maclean25 and Ealdgyth now. ZeaLitY [ DREAM - REFLECT ] 04:09, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I am supporting this article as an FA because it is exhaustively researched that certainly neglects no major facts (it goes much further than FAs on similar topics). Except File:Trajq-jessiebentondarkestfathoms.png (why is this required?) the images are excellent uses of Fair Use to illustrate different aspects (e.g. QuestWorld graphics, graphic effects, character changes between seasons). Regarding the remaining QuestFan references, 1. I'm ok with the Writer's bible though I'd prefer listing H-B as the publisher and using the QuestFan link as a convenience link. 2. I'd prefer losing Francois Lord's & Lance Falk's commentary from this article (The Lance Falk pieces are nice little extras, but are unnecessary for the scope of this article; The Francois Lord comments do add more but the article can stand without them). 3. On the Peter Lawrence interview, I'm unsure...though the QuestFan page doesn't do much to verify it is an interview between Lawrence and yourself(?), if it is a real interview, then I don't see how it is any less reliable than a professional TV/radio interview with Lawrence. But, of course, I defer to Ealdgyth's experience with references. --maclean 02:44, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Okay, standing by for further revision. Thanks. This is finally my first FAC without a copyedit shakedown or objection; viewing in print mode and copyediting from the bottom to the top really is a fantastic technique. ZeaLitY [ DREAM - REFLECT ] 03:29, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 06:57, 6 July 2009 [6].

Howie Morenz

Nominator(s): Kaiser matias (talk) 22:38, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]


The third article of an NHL player who died during their career, and second Montreal Canadien, I followed the style that I previously used for Georges Vézina. All concerns will be addressed as soon as I can resolve them. Kaiser matias (talk) 22:38, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Provisional oppose
    • "a Canadian professional ice hockey player in the National Hockey League." this seems a bit repetitious. Doesn't National Hockey League imply that he was professional? Also, although I'm unfamiliar with hockey articles, I believe it's conventional in other articles on sports figures to include the position played in the opening sentence. Finally, I think it's clumsy to mention the NHL first and then just a few sentences later the Ontario Hockey Association; I tend to think both of these should go together.
      • Reworded the opening. However, I would say it is better to keep the OHA seperate, as it is a junior, amateur league. I've reworded that part to help clarify.
    • You have Morenz dying at the end of the first paragraph, then you talk more about his life in the beginning of the second. While there's no rule against doing so, I tend to think it would be better if the lead went in something more like a chronological fashion.
      • Combined the two paragraphs into one, and sorted chronologically. However, I think it can be improved, so some comments on that would be appreciated.
    • "in both goals scored and points." Sorry, I'm totally ignorant about hockey. Is there a difference between these two?
    • "Morenz died from complications of a broken leg, an injury he suffered in a game." As a non-specialist reader, this is by far the most interesting point the whole lead to me. Broken legs aren't generally fatal. I think another sentence or so on the nature of the complications might be in order.
    • "Howie Morenz was the son of William Morenz," Any biographical data on the father? Any idea who the mother was?
      • There is, so I've linked both goal and point in the lead.
    • "playing shinny on the Thames River" I'd suggest linking this to Shinny; I had no idea what shinny was before looking it up.
      • Done
    • "After that game, a coach switching Morenz to rover, a defensive position." Should be switched.
      • Fixed
    • "Morenz became a forward after it became apparent his speed was much more suitable for an offensive role.[3] After starting in goal for the 1916–17 season, Howie helped the Mitchell ice hockey team reach the Western Ontario juvenille championship.[3]" The chronology here is confusing. When exactly did he become a forward? Before or after 1916-1917?
      • Reworded so it should be clearer
    • "Howie tried enlisting in the Canadian military, but was refused when it was learned he was only fifteen years old." I think the passive voice here is unnecessary and a little tortured. I'd suggest making this "when recruiters learned" or something like that.
      • Done
    • "He joined the Stratford Midgets junior team" When? Was it for the 1920-1921 season?\
      • Added a date
    • "leading the OHA in assists and points during the regular season" I'd make the fact that this was the Ontario Hockey League more obvious, so as to go better with the lead.
      • Done
    • "After reaching the Memorial Cup, Morenz was asked to play for the Stratford Indians, a senior league team." Does this mean for the next season? Immediately? Also, was it because he had reached the Cup or just because of his general level of play that he was asked to do so?
      • Clarified
    • " During the playoffs, he led both leagues in goals, assists, points, and led the senior league in penalty minutes." Unless I'm mistaken, leading in penalty minutes is a bad thing, right? As such, I think some distinction should be made between leading in the good areas and the bad one.
      • I tried to make some disctinction, but it may not have been enough
    • "he led it for regular season assists" For? Shouldn't this be in?
      • Fixed
    • "At the age of eighteen, Howie got an apprenticeship with the CN railway factory in Stratford." Is there a reason you say Howie here instead of Morenz?
      • Changed to Morenz
    • "CN railway factory" What is CN? Anywhere to link it?
      • Added link
    • "Howie, Jr. was born in 1927, Donald in 1933 and Marlene in 934." Surely this should be 1934?
      • Fixed date
    • " friend of Léo Dandurand, the owner of the Montreal Canadiens of the National Hockey League, refereed the game, and told Dandurand how good Morenz was." Is this meant to be "A friend"?
      • Fixed
    • "However in July," should be "However, in July,"
      • Fixed
    • " Howie Morenz signed a contract with the Canadiens for three years, with a salary of $3,500 per year and a $1,000 signing bonus." Intuitively I get no sense of what this amounts means. Was it a lot?
      • Added context
    • "Immediately after signing the contract with the Canadiens, Morenz began to reconsider joining the Canadiens." This is a bit repetitious perhaps replace the second instance of "Canadiens" with "them"?
      • Fixed
    • "Dandurand, but began crying." The comma here is unnecessary.
      • Fixed
    • "Dandurand told him that if Morenz did not join the Canadiens, his professional hockey career would be over." Was this just a threat or the result of a contractual obligation (i.e., would he not legally have been permitted to play?)
      • Clarified
    • "He made his NHL debut on December 26, 1923 in Ottawa against the Ottawa Senators, scoring a goal against the home team." I think "against the home team" is unneeded.
      • Fixed
    • "in the frist game of the two game, total goals series" I believe this should be "first"
      • Fixed
    • "reached the NHL playofs" should be playoffs
      • Fixed
    • " Howie tied with linemate Aurèle Joliat in leading the Canadiens in scoring in 1925–26 with twenty-six points, finishing fifth in the league. He finished third in the league in goals, with twenty-five, and points, with thirty-two, in 1926–27, to again lead the Canadiens." This is rather confusing. The first three times I read it, I thought I was getting different figures for the same season. I'd recommend placing "1926-1927" before the numbers.
      • Clarified
    • "The one goal he scored in four playoff games eliminated the Montreal Maroons from playoff contention." How so?
      • Clarified
    • "During the 1929–30 season, Morenz finished seventh in the league for scoring with fifty points, including scoring forty goals for the first time" Maybe it's not really relevant to the article, but this seems pretty amazing. In 1928 he was the first player ever to score 50 points, but in 1929-1930 50 points was only seventh in the league? Was there some sort of change to the rules that led to higher scoring?
      • Indeed there was; note added
    • "playoff games, the final goal of the playoffs as he won" you need another comma on the other side of playoffs.
      • Done
    • "also being named to the First All-Star Team again." How was this the first All-Star Team? Wasn't the first one in 1930-1931?
      • I tried to add some clarity to the previous mention of the All-Star Team
    • "passing Cy Denneny for the NHL record holder for career points" I'd say "as" instead of "for".
      • Done
    • "Minor injuries led to his point totals going down the following season" I think it would be much more elegant to say "minor injuries led his point totals to go down". Also, any idea what kind of minor injuries they were?
      • Changed, and no, there is nothing specified. They didn't specify injuries back then, and its amazing enough that it was even recorded he was hurt.
    • "The 1933–34 season also saw Morenz's point total fall" Fall to what level (i.e., how many points)?
      • It was later in the paragraph, but moved up
    • "once again passing Cy Denneny to become the NHL leader for career goals" I take it from this that Denneny was active and had passed Morenz earlier. I think it would be good to say when.
      • Denneny was retired, but held several career scoring records. I've moved the mention of him to clarify
    • "The trade rumours ended on October 3, 1934, when Morenz was traded to the Chicago Black Hawks." So what happened to "when I can't play for them, I'll never put on a skate again."?
      • Added some clarity
    • " The trade rumours ended on October 3, 1934, when Morenz was traded to the Chicago Black Hawks. Along with goaltender Lorne Chabot and defenceman Marty Burke, he was traded for forwads Leroy Goldsworthy and Lionel Conacher, and defenceman Roger Jenkins." I'd merge this all into one sentence
      • done
    • " Morenz was traded for the second time in his career, being sent to the New York Rangers on January 26, 1936, traded for forward Glen Brydson." I'd remove the second instance of traded for better flow.
      • Done
    • "giving him twenty-one poitns" This should be points.
      • Done
    • " landed with full force into Morenz" I've never heard "landed ...into" before. I'd suggest "on".
      • Done
    • "recovering from the injry" should be injury
      • Fixed
    • "His Canadiens teammateswould" should be two words.
      • Fixed
    • "a teammate of his remakred that" should be remarked.
      • Fixed
    • The doctors didn't try to do anything about the heart attack?
      • There is nothing specific in the reference, though I believe it was implied that by the time they realised what happened to him, it was to late to do anything, thus the phonecalls.
    • "The next day, March 9, the Montreal newspapers announced his death." So did the other newspapers, I can find a New York TImes story on that day about it.
      • True enough; removed that sentence
    • "two minutes silence was observed" I think this would read much better as "two minutes of silence were observed"
      • Done
    • "A funeral was held on March 10, 1937 at Montreal Forum" Is there a reason this isn't "the Montreal Forum"?
      • Done
    • " A team composed of player" should be players.
      • Fixed
    • "Morenz also had a profound impact on growing the NHL, his exciting play helping bring professional hockey to the United States." Comma splice. Either split into two sentence or replace the comma with a semicolon.
      • Modified slightly, it should work now
    • "During the 1924 Stanley Cup Final between Montreal and Calgary, Morenz's first season in the NHL, Charles Adams, the owner of a chain of grocery stores, went back to Boston wanting a hockey team based in the city. That summer, the NHL granted Adams a franchise for the following season, the Boston Bruins." Was this is any way directly connected to Morenz?
      • Added why it was worth while
    • In the "Career statistics", it's driving me nuts that the second two columns are taller than the first. Is there something meaningful you could put there other than whitespace?
      • Don't quite understand what you mean here. If you're referring to the space between the table, then no, there isn't really anything that can be put there. The table has been used for every other ice hockey article, both FA and not, and this is the first time anything has been said about it.
  • A great article, I look forward to supporting in the future, but there are frequent spelling and grammar problems throughout. I'd recommend running the article through a spellchecker and reading it through a few times in segments to spot the grammar and spelling problems that I didnt' catch. Cool3 (talk) 04:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thanks for the thorough review. I'm terrible at reviewing articles myself, particularily ones I've put considerable amounts of work into, so it's nice to have someone, especially someone clueless about hockey (which is nearly everyone), to do so. Kaiser matias (talk) 22:47, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The publisher's the Hockey Hall of Fame, so it's very reliable (except for their knowledge on copyright, but that's another story). Maxim(talk) 17:39, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Like Maxim said, the site is the Hockey Hall of Fame's website, and has been through probably every hockey article to come through the FA nomination process. Kaiser matias (talk) 22:47, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – Still needs work on the prose. All but one of these are from the lead and first section of the body.

  • "Morenz consistently finished in near the top of league scoring". Remove "in".
    • Done
  • "Three times in his career Morenz was named the most valuable player of the league and led the league in goals scored once and total points scored twice." → "Three times in his career Morenz was named the most valuable player of the league, and he led the league in goals scored once and points scored twice."
    • Done
  • Early life: "After starting in goal for the 1916–17 season, Howie tried enlisting in the Canadian military". Why is his first name being used here? It's informal when used in this fashion. There's no risk of confusing him with family members of the same name, like in a couple of instances later in the section.
    • Changed name to Morenz
  • Is "juvenille" British English?
    • Possibly. It was part of an ill-fated attempt to use Microsoft Word for spelling corrections. It was a bad idea.
  • Remove comma from "in May, 1917."?
    • Done
  • A period is missing from the middle of the second paragraph of the section (Morenz joining the Stratford Indians).
    • Fixed
  • I'm pretty sure 1970's should be 1970s.
    • Done
  • Multiple links for the Canadian National Railway company are unnecessary this close together.
    • Removed second second link
  • Saw this on a glance at the later part of the article: "though the Canadiens' management knew he was to passionate about hockey to quit."
    • Don't quite know what your trying to say here.
      • Read it again: "he was to passionate". Notice anything? :-)

Giants2008 (17-14) 00:30, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    • Addressed all your concerns. Kaiser matias (talk) 03:32, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • "held December, 1922 in Montreal". → "held in December 1922 in Montreal"? Basically, anytime there's a comma between a month and year like this, check to see whether it should be in there or not. Note that any like "July 7, 1923" are fine.
        • Fixed
      • "Howie Morenz signed a contract with the Canadiens...". Another unneeded first name.
        • Removed
      • Montreal Canadiens: "They defeated the Vancouver Maroons of the Pacific Coast Hockey Association in two games of a best of five games series". Huh? According to 1923–24 NHL season, it was a best-of-three series.
      • "with Morenz scoring a hat trick." This is a type of awkward sentence I see often, using "with" as a connector. Try "as Morenz scored a hat trick."
        • Changed the sentence around, so Morenz scoring is before the score.
      • "Minor injuries led his point totals going down the following season". I believe this is meant to say "led to his point totals going down the following season".
        • Fixed
      • "With Morenz not playing to his previous level". This is similar to one of the earlier comments, as this uses a with + -ing structure.
        • Fixed
      • "I'll never put on a skate again.," Picky, but I think there is too much punctuation here.
        • Fixed
      • Chicago, New York and Montreal: "with Morenz contributing regularly" is another sentence that needs a structural fix.
        • Changed
      • "in which hs scored fifteen points". Typo. Might as well mention it while I'm here.
        • Changed
      • "occasionally showing the speed that had made notable at the start of his career." "him" is

missing.

        • Fixed

Giants2008 (17-14) 01:27, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

        • Addressed more of your concerns. Kaiser matias (talk) 20:56, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • "By mid-January, Morenz had four goals and twenty-points". Remove second hyphen.
            • Fixed
          • "with his left skate being caught in the wooden siding" is another awkward sentence structure.
            • Fixed
          • "with the New York Rangers and New York Americans observing a moment of silence" is one more.
          • "with his exciting play helping bring professional hockey to the United States." And one more.
            • Fixed
          • "Bernie Geoffrion, who also played for the Canadiens and Rangers, and later inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame." Needs "was" before "inducted".
            • Fixed

Giants2008 (17-14) 00:14, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 06:57, 6 July 2009 [7].

The Girl Is Mine

Nominator(s): Pyrrhus16 18:26, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... despite not being the longest of articles, I believe it meets the FA criteria. Pyrrhus16 18:26, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I couldn't find any non-watermarked images of the sheet music on the web. I've added a bit on the musical structuring of the song, underneath the recording paragraph. Pyrrhus16 19:42, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Vague support Not strongly supporting this, as I know nothing about WP:MOSMUSIC and there may be guidelines you've failed to follow of which I'm not aware, but this seems to cover everything that could be said without slipping over the line into fancruft and with no obvious room for improvement that I can see. I think that 'The "irrepressibly silly Paul McCartney"'s breakdown' needs rewording to avoid that awkward double punctuation, though. And this prompted me to listen to TGIM for the first time in months, and I'd forgotten just how creepily weird it is. Just saying. – iridescent 00:15, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, 1a, 1b, and MoS issues. Quite a bit more work is needed to get this up to FA quality for a song. There are plenty of general prose and MoS problems, but the explanations of the composition and examination of the music are confusing and incomplete. Example issues:
    • MoS issues spotted. Please check punctuation in quotations per WP:LQ. There are also problems with quotations with quotations.
      Think I've got all the occurences.
    • General problem with overlinking. Don't link common terms such as "plagiarism", "record label", "remix", "cartoons", and many more.
      Done.
    • "The track was written by Jackson as he watched cartoons" This seems highly unnecessary detail for the lead. Later, more confusion ensues as you expound that he was watching cartoons with McCartney, but also that he woke up in the night and sang into a tape recorder? The cartoon bit is unclear and of questionable importance to the article. On the whole, the half-paragraph discussion of the composition process is confusing and incomplete.
      Fixed, I think. It was completed as he watched cartoons, following him recording a rough demo into a recorder.
    • "Despite the public feeling" What does this mean? What public feeling? We shouldn't be forced to read the entire article to discover the meaning of something in the lead. Details, yes—meaning, no.
      Fixed in the above paragraph.
    • Your explanation of how the song uses AABA is... incorrect. "When used to the maximum"? No one is going to follow this. I get the impression you've paraphrased some explanation from the source without fully understanding what the author was discussing. AABA has nothing to do with lyrics.
      Indeed. I reworded the info in this, as I only just found it during the FAC. Any help on this part would be appreciated.
    • I was hoping to see more musical analysis of the song, since at least one of your sources seems to touch on it. This is a concern for comprehensiveness.
      Added info on the musical chords. Pyrrhus16 16:21, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
And much more. --Laser brain (talk) 19:55, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • "Listeners were not impressed by 'The Girl Is Mine'": I'm curious as to who exactly "listeners" refers to here; the public? How does one gauge public opinion of a single so soon after it is released?
  • The general public, yes. I'm not too sure how the public's opinion was gauged. Perhaps they wrote to the press and complained, or the press took to the streets and asked the public their thoughts.
  • "Despite some of the public's concerns, 'The Girl Is Mine' achieved success in the music charts." I don't see the connection between the 2 clauses of the sentence.
  • Removed first part.
  • Most of those publications seem to slag off the single, I think branding the reviews as "mixed" might be a little too soft. Further, are any of those quotes from actual contemporary single reviews? If they are from album reviews, or just general descriptions of the song in pieces written years after, make sure you classify them as such. (it is important to give a contrast between contemporary reaction vs. retrospective opinion)
  • Added an explanation in the text.
  • Move the charts to the bottom of the article. (looking rather unsightly where it is right now, in between large paragraphs of text)
  • Done.
  • What is Thriller 25? Shouldn't that section header be in quotes?
  • Done both.
  • Who is Aidin Vaziri?
  • Done.
  • I don't think its necessary to have each line of the remix credits begin with "Remix". Also, since personnel credits are self-referential, those cites (#40 and #41) can go as well.—indopug (talk) 16:34, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Steve 14:17, 3 July 2009 [8].

The Naked Brothers Band: The Movie

Nominator(s): ATC . Talk 19:33, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It has been through many copyedits, and has received a WP:GAN. Now I think it fits the criteria as a featured article. ATC . Talk 19:33, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:04, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply:
    • I will fix MOS, but those sources are the only one available for the information. What do you do if their is no reliable sources, and non-reliable sources are present? Is it an exception?
    • I will spell out the notes that are abbreviated.
    • I'll check out the reference and see what I could do.
    • Is there any other corrections that need to be done before it could be a featured article?
    • Thanx!
    • ATC . Talk 15:40, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is no exception for unreliable sources, even if there are no reliable sources. Have you investigated print sources, such as magazines, newspapers? As far as your question about other corrections, I only review for sources and such like. Others will need to investigate the prose, images, etc, and it may take a bit of time. FAC can take up to a couple of weeks to run its course. (I just had one of my nominations promoted after two weeks at FAC, and there are others on the list right now that have been at FAC almost a month.) Ealdgyth - Talk 15:48, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Is it okay for nominators who are away for a month? Because I will be away for eight weeks, starting July 6h through August, and I might not be on Wiki if and when it is accepted as a featured article. I'll leave a note on my user page, when I will be away so people know not to contact me, as I will not be available. ATC . Talk 18:36, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Also, could you tell me where I abbreviated links (you are probably referring to abbreviation in the news sources/website ("publisher"))? I don't see anything, they all look like they are spelled out fully. Also, do you check if everything in the text of the article is sourced in the reference tag? Thanx! ATC . Talk 18:43, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If you're going to be away for 8 weeks in about a week, I would suggest withdrawing and nominating again when you return. The abbreviation is YTV, which actually links to a disambiguation page. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:32, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I'll fix that minor mistake and withdraw until I get back in August. ATC . Talk 11:33, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand YTV redirects to YTV (TV channel)—not the disambiguation page. ATC . Talk 11:36, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It does now, it did not when I checked yesterday, but all that matters is its fixed. It's still a good idea to not use abbreviations that aren't well known. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:27, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments: Not much wrong, though I do have some issues; first off, there are several red links in "Filming." Unless you plan to make those articles, then they should be removed. Second, I know this isn't much an issues, but the cast is much a list. Some info on casting would be nice, as well as a larger expansion of the characters if they're going to be listed. Third, the releases section might need a bit expansion and minor clean up; it's still generally fine. Oh, and also, it'd be good to crop out the watermark in the plot images. On the topic of images, you might want to find some free use images for representative purposes. They help better understanding the area of topic. Other than those things, very nice job and if these are fixed I'd be happy to see this as an FA. The Flash {talk} 02:54, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Dabomb87 16:10, 2 July 2009 [9].

4 Minutes (Madonna song)

Nominator(s): --Legolas (talk2me) 13:18, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it has all the qualities to be a Featured article for Wikipedia. I have worked on this article for quite long and ensured that all relevant references and prose have been perfected. This is my first FA nomination. --Legolas (talk2me) 13:18, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose—1a and 2. I hate to start your first FA nomination like this, but I ran into problems as soon as I started reading the lead. I suggest finding an uninvolved copy-editor to run through.

  • "and features American singer-songwriter Justin Timberlake and Timbaland who also co-wrote and produced the song." There should be a comma after "Timbaland". This statement is contradictory to the next sentence, which states "...the song was written by Madonna and Timberlake" but makes no mention of Timbaland.
  • "The main idea behind the song was a sense of urgency" Very labored; could be "The primary/main [your pick] theme of the song was..." And I'm not sure that "a sense of urgency" is a theme or main idea, anyway; sounds like a feeling.
  • "The song also presents Timbaland's characteristic bhangra beats" The sentence would do better if it were connected to the previous like so: "Musically, "4 Minutes" is an uptempo dance song with an urban, hip-hop beat featuring instrumentation from a brass, fog horns and cow bells; the song also presents Timbaland's characteristic bhangra beats." Is brass a specific instrument? I always thought it was a family of wind instruments. If so, "a brass" doesn't make sense.
  • "Lyrically the song has a message of social awareness in it and was inspired by Madonna's visit to Africa and witnessing the suffering of the people there." More wordiness, and I don't think it's saying what you mean it to say. Are you saying that the song was inspired by Madonna's visit to Africa, or the lyrics? More imprecise writing: I doubt the fact that Madonna visited Africa inspired her; you probably meant to say "and was inspired by Madonna's witnessing the suffering of the people of Africa." ("visit to" is unnecessary).
  • Newspapers should be italicized (I see The New York Times italicized in one instance, and in regular formatting in another).
  • "Track listings and formats" should be using spaced en dashes (–), not spaced em dashes (—)
  • "a loud, busy, energetic track." Please see WP:LQ on logical quotation. The period should go inside the quote marks.

And much more. My prose examples were from the first paragraph of the lead. Dabomb87 (talk) 13:44, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]


non free content a stunning excess Fasach Nua (talk) 21:05, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. The prose can be improved or tweaked as Dabomb87 has pointed out, however as Fasach Nua says about non-free content, I must point out that other Featured song articles like Irreplaceable also has the same number of non-free content which each of them are added to enhance the visibility of the points being discussed. I hope more reviews come up. --Legolas (talk2me) 08:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Im withdrawing teh nomination since I believe now as pointed above that a thorough copyedit is required before re-submitting it for FA. --Legolas (talk2me) 09:11, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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