Talk:Muhammad Ali

Muhammad is the best boxer you'll find

Joe Frazier

Joe Frazier filled the vacancy and also beat Ali so it's misleading to say he simply just filled the vacancy.

Parkinson's has little to nothing to do with head trauma

"Ali was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease in 1984,[24][25] a disease for which those subject to severe head trauma, such as boxers, are many times more susceptible."

It's a degenerative brain disease, note DISEASE. And any link has been refuted as I understand it. The quoted line also states it as fact, and I'm sure if there has been research done on the matter it still remains far from fact. The sentence, to me at least, looks to be out of place and slotted in after someone ctrl-f seatch Parkinson's in the article. 86.46.84.28 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:32, 20 March 2010 (UTC).

Broken reference

reference 57 has Muhammed instead of Muhammad, so the search fails. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.113.197.82 (talk) 10:11, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Reach

What is mean with Reach 2 M ? Was his reach 2 metres?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.80.236.182 (talk) 14:21, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Reach means the measurment taken from finger tip to finger tip when you spread out your arms. 86.46.70.156 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:25, 30 March 2010 (UTC).

Inoki

Although I'm pleased with much of the recent cleanup of this article (10-11 thru 10-12), I feel that at least some mention of the Inoki exhibition should have been retained. It received a lot of media attention in Japan, of course, but it also received a fair amount of publicity in the United States [and the UK, too (albeit not always complementary(!)) - Autochthony Writes; Feb 2009) when it occurred. The removed text follows:

Ali's next match after Dunn was a June 25 exhibition against the Japanese wrestler Antonio Inoki. Although widely perceived as a publicity stunt, the match would have a long-term detrimental affect on Ali's mobility. Inoki spent much of the fight on the ground trying to damage Ali’s legs, while Ali spent most of the fight dodging the kicks or staying on the ropes. At the end of 15 rounds, the bout was called a draw. Ali's legs, however, were bleeding, leading to an infection. He suffered two blood clots in his legs as well.

Is there any support for re-integrating at least some of this information back into the article?

— Myasuda (talk) 01:07, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

A Brit who laughed at, - and enjoyed - the UK coverage of that event says "Hell, yeah!". It should be in! Autochthony Writes; Feb 2009.

Who is Fred Stoner?

At the beginning of the article there is a mention of Ali's other trainer at junior level, but no reference. Fred Stoner is mentioned on numerous occasions in Ali's autobiography 'The Greatest, My Own Story.' The first time is on page 55, where Ali describes encountering a boxer from Stoner's gym and is beaten. He then visits Stoner's gym where he notices that 'the boys from Stoner's gym were better boxer's than those at Martin's.' (page 55 'The Greatest, My Own Story.')

Lukeyo784 (talk) 19:21, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Suggested alterations

The following text "However, Ali won a more important victory on June 28, 1971, when the Supreme Court reversed his conviction for refusing induction by unanimous decision in Clay v. United States." which can be found under the title The Fight of the Century should be edited and placed at the end of Vietnam War.

The following text "In 1964, Ali failed the U.S. Armed Forces qualifying test because his writing and spelling skills were sub-par. However, in early 1966, the tests were revised and Ali was reclassified as 1A. This classification meant he was now eligible for the draft and induction into the U.S. Army. This was especially important because the United States was engaged in the Vietnam War. When notified of this status, he declared that he would refuse to serve in the United States Army and publicly considered himself a conscientious objector. Ali stated that "War is against the teachings of the Holy Qur'an. I'm not trying to dodge the draft. We are not supposed to take part in no wars unless declared by Allah or The Messenger. We don't take part in Christian wars or wars of any unbelievers." Ali also famously said in 1966: "I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong ... They never called me nigger."[7][8]" can be found, literally the same, under Religion and Vietnam War. There is only one sentence between those two identical texts. --Afopow (talk) 12:57, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

The article asserts that Ali "developed Parkinson's disease due to the injuries..." but the linked article says that Parkinson's Disease is degenerative and thought to be caused by genetic abnormalities. Given that Ali's disease is not degenerative (and incidentally is thought to be due to his boxing injuries), I think the sentence and link in this article should be changed from Parkinson's disease to Parkinsonism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.12.159.98 (talk) 02:10, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

correction

Stance Orthodox I guess that Stance Islam,..... ~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Donquimico (talk • contribs) 23:39, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

"recent photo"

Page is locked; I can't edit. There's a photo with a caption "... recent photo ..." Wikipedia standards indicate that there should be a date (a year would suffice) instead of the more vague "recent". "A 2004 photo of Ali", for instance, would be an improvement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.68.134.1 (talk) 20:11, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Minor point - but I do agree. Autochthony Writes; Feb 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.223.75 (talk) 22:22, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

locked

would someone unlock this page so i can edit it. I'm a boxing historian and the boxer i know the most about is Ali. i'm not autoconfirmed yet though.--Krasilschic (talk) 20:45, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Trimming bio section

The GA review states that the bio section needs trimming. What content, and how, can it be trimmed to improve the article and avoid vandalism? The legacy section also needs to be expanded.

It would really help if you (Rumble74) would quit editing the article. --DreamsAreMadeOf (talk) 05:00, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I would ask the reviewer Jaranda (talk · contribs · logs) to make a more specific recommendation regarding trimming the article. This GA review took place more than a year and a half ago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Muhammad_Ali/Archive_3#Failed_GA), and some of the comments made at that time may no longer be pertinent. Myasuda (talk) 03:04, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

He is Irish American and this is stated on his mothers page, can someone put this up please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.75.155 (talk) 16:17, 22 May 2009 (UTC) ==Liston vs Ali== hello everybody The fight between Ali and Liston went 6 full rounds befor it was stopped befor the 7th round ever started but on the main page it is listed as having gone 7 rounds.I was unable to get into the article but thought someone might change it thank you comment by Frosty87

Neutrality dispute

Can anyone explain why the article is tagged 'neutrality is disputed' (January 2009)? I can't see any discusison of it here. thanks. --hippo43 (talk) 01:22, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

ali vs chuck wepner

when ali faced opponent chuck wepner, ali did recieve a punch from wepner however the only reason he fell to canvas was because he was off balance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.200.195.95 (talk) 04:10, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually as Ali was moving backwards Wepner stood on his foot.This was a little trick Wepner picked up from Sonny Liston —Preceding unsigned comment added by Callingdogsofthunder (talk • contribs) 08:37, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Career Milestone Deleted

This article used to contain the fact that Clay/Ali was the youngest boxer ever to take the title from a reigning heavyweight champion, a mark that stood until the mid 1980s (Mike Tyson broke it). Prior to Tyson, Patterson was the youngest heavyweight champ, but he won the title during an elimination tournament (following Marciano's retirement) by defeating Archie Moore, the light-heavyweight champ at the time. Taking Liston's crown at age 22 was no small achievement. --NameThatWorks (talk) 15:32, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Ireland

Can somebody put the name, Abe Grady, of Muhammad Ali's Irish ancestor from Ennis in Co. Clare into this article? Here's a link: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0807/1224252149374.html This story is all over the news in Ireland as Muhammad Ali is due in Ennis on 1 September. The media has routinely been playing excerpts of his last visits to Ireland and showing pictures of him playing Hurling back in the 1960s. 78.16.10.27 (talk) 10:38, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Thrilla in Manila

Please view the video of this fight here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdKlL01b9V4

Our article says that Frazier's eyes were "swollen closed". This is not a true statement. Watch the video and look at Frazier's face at the end of Round 14. His eyes are puffy (right eye more so) but they ARE NOT swollen closed. I'd say his eyes were "swollen and puffy", but I do not agree they were "closed". Mike Tyson's left eye in the Buster Douglas fight was a much better example of a swollen eye. 216.153.214.89 (talk) 05:45, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Criticism

True, Ali was a great boxer- great reach, foot speed, good dancer, hand speed and a hard hitter, however, he was also one of the dumbest and dirtiest fighters I ever saw. A boxer's body has many targets to hit; Ali was always just a head-hunter. What else do you call someone who has can see 6 or 7 primary targets (or 8,10 or even 12 like Rocky Marciano saw) and only aims at one- Dumb. Ali was also a very dirty fighter and from the very beginning, part of his successes were a result of continually holding an opponents head while he hit and always hitting on the break; both infractions worthy of losing a point in a round. Referees then never called these infractions on Ali. Maybe the referees then were all white and were afraid to call Ali for these infractions for fear of being called a racist. I think my critism should be included in the main article to best describe all of Ali's "talents" and to better understand why Ali succeeded.Dcrasno (talk) 03:06, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

1) See WP:NOTAFORUM. 2) All statements must be backed up by reliable sources --NeilN ^{talk ♦ contribs} 03:21, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I have no access to the films or other reliable, plentiful media about Ali's fights. Handball Champion Jimmy Jacobs, (one of the co-"owners" of Ali's contract back then) owned the best, most complete catalog of boxing films then. I read that Jacobs' wife inherited the collection after he died; what's happened to it since then? Probably sold to Sony or other big-time film distribution group.

I think any type of info about Ali should be included in this article. good for the Goose- good for the gander. I can't get the films- can you?Dcrasno (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:45, 26 November 2009 (UTC).

What are you talking about? Nothing should be added to the article without being backed up by reliable sources. If these are not available then you're kind of out of luck. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 02:28, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Ali was primarily a straight punch fighter ... it isn't a good idea to hit the body with straights. He was an out fighter who used straights and kept his distance mostly. No reason to aim for anything other than the head like that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.46.84.28 (talk) 23:36, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

I watched most of Ali's fights on TV and was present for the fight in Miami Beach in 1964. His style was unorthodox because he kept his gloves low and stayed out of the range of opponents with his famous shuffle. His hand speed was the probably best in the world and certainly the best in the heavier weight classes. He had a very long reach as traditionally measured, but by moving in and out fast he increased the effectiveness of that reach even more. He did not punch well at all in the clinches and took many more hits than he put out during clinches. He took punches very well and often appeared to slip them even when he got hit hard, a factor that got him a lot of points from scorers.

These suggestions that Ali was a dirty fighter are absolutely false. "Referees ... never called these infractions on Ali" because there were few or none of them. He was no friend of the Refs and they would have been glad to call him on this were there any evidence at all. There are absolutely no reliable sources for the statements and there are videos at Metacafe and YouTube which strongly refute the allegations that he was a dirty fighter. --Komowkwa (talk) 04:38, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Cultural and political legacy is insufficiently explained

The overview of the political impact of Ali's career is too limited. Immediately after his anti-Vietnam War statements in 1966, Ali was widely criticised reviled and vilified in the media, and there was much support for New York State Athletic Commission suspending his boxing license and stripping him of his title. The contemporary references are plentiful, but mostly on microfiche in newspaper archives now. There is some grounds for the view that the authorities particularly wanted Ali to serve in the army to increase public acceptance of the war in Vietnam - in a similar way to the way that Joe Louis' military service was used to support the war in the Pacific during WWII

Similarly, Cassius Clay's name change in 1964 to Muhammad Ali was very contentious at the time, leading to a drop in his popularity.

Finally, I am considering how to place this part of Ali's career in the context of the civil rights movement, the rise of black militancy and other upheavals that were taking place in US society at the time. This is important for the reader who has no idea of the atmosphere, prominent personalities and connected events taking place at the time. For example, Ali's famous quote about the Viet Cong 'They never called me nigger', is mentioned in the article, but Ali actually borrowed it from Stokely Carmichael.
Centrepull (talk) 13:41, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree completely that Ali's global cultural and political impact has been understated here so far. I grew up during the full span of Ali's boxing career, from Olympic gold medalist, to "brash loudmouth" of the early '60s, to Black Muslim convert, to a man who expanded the doctrine of conscientious objection to military service, to a boxer who regained the title twice in an era of extremely strong heavyweight division competition, to an epic cultural icon who every single world leader on all sides (e.g. Brezhnev) wanted to meet in person. Compared to Ali, Michael Jordan is a mere bystander. Next to Dr. King, Ali may have done as much as anyone in the name of black empowerment, and by the late 1970s, he was almost universally beloved by Americans from all walks of life. Ali's story has been written countless times, and I have started to look for appropriate reliable sources to suggest for this purpose. The article on Babe Ruth could be somewhat of a template, as it reflects the enormity of Ruth's cultural impact in a way that this article needs to do for Ali. Jrgilb (talk) 05:42, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

1971 Fleischer ranking

A passage on a ranking by Ring magazine founder Nat Fleischer indicating Ali did not rank "in the top ten heavyweights" was deleted as non-germane as the assessment was made was too early in Ali's career to be relevant in the context of its entirety. The dismissal followed only Ali's first ever loss (to then champion Joe Frazier) and did not reflect Ali's subsequent repeat victories over Frazier in 1974 and 1975, his regaining the heavyweight crown (in one of boxing's most memorable bouts ever) from subsequent champion George Foreman (who had devastated Frazier with six knockdowns in two rounds to take Frazier's title away), and Ali's then unprecedented third reclaiming of the heavyweight championship in 1978.

Such an assessment is thus as inadequate as saying Babe Ruth wasn't much of a baseball player because he only pitched five years, ignoring Ruth's subsequent shift to outfield and establishment of himself as the greatest hitter in the history of the game. How Fleischer ranked Ali at the end of Ali's career - if an unbaised assessment of it en toto - would be a different thing. Wikiuser100 (talk) 06:10, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Nat Fleischer was the foremost boxing historian and journalist for 50 years who founded Ring Magazine and watched most of the great heavyweight champions from ringside. He saw Ali through what most regard as his peak years during the 1960s. He was at ringside for many of his fights, including the first Frazier bout in 1971. His rating of Ali against the other great heavyweights is as adequate as those who rate Ali as 'the greatest' despite never seeing Joe Louis, Jack Johnson or Jack Dempsey etc in the flesh or in some cases not even knowing much about them. How many of those Ring Magazine and ESPN writers who cast their votes for Ali saw Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey live as Fleischer did? Is their opinion inadequate because they lacked Fleischer's first hand knowledge of the older champions?

It is ludicrous to delete the entry by implying he would have reversed himself had he lived longer. In any event, why is a contemporary opinion inadequate? It's akin to deleting public approval ratings on Ronald Reagan's presidency from 1985 on the basis that those casting their votes had not viewed his administration in its entirety and therefore their opinion is 'inadequate'. In 1971 the most prominent boxing historian/journalist of his time (a man who was better placed than most to judge Ali against the past heavyweight champions) did not rank Ali among the ten greatest heavyweights. That sounds perfectly adequate to me.

Jimmy Robinson

There should be a link to Jimmy robinson in the proffesional record-a page does exist-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Robinson_(boxer) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.173.133 (talk) 18:11, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Sonny Liston "...later claimed a shoulder injury"

How to fix this mistake?

 1) The reason was given immediately, not "later"
 2) A doctor was at least involved, and thus it is misleading to use "claimed"

Together these two words prejudice the issue by implying the untruthfulness of the reason given -- note, the reason might be untrue, but that is not the actual chronology or the way it was reported at the scene.

This phrase "...later claimed a shoulder injury" is misleading and perhaps inaccurate as the shoulder injury was reported in the ring immediately after the fight by Joe Louis who was acting as the color commentator for the TV broadcast.

In the on-air discussion recorded in the ring immediately after the fight, Louis reported speaking with Liston's corner and learning that the/a doctor had reported the injured shoulder as the reason for the stoppage.

It is wrong or misleading on two counts:

This (misleading or incorrect) phrase is in other sources which may be primary or which may be based on this Wikipedia article, but the fight TV recording is clear and unambiguous.

However, I do not know the procedure for documenting and correcting this based on the video tape -- which is shown from time to time, e.g., on ESPN Classic.

HerbM (talk) 14:06, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Since the text is unsourced currently, I see no harm in changing it to "Then, Liston shocked the boxing world when he failed to answer the bell for the seventh round, stating he had a shoulder injury" which I've done, based on your observations. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:16, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

ali sux —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dummaidioter (talk • contribs) 11:29, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

INTERESTING COMPARISONS WHAT HAPPENED ON THIRD FIGHT, AL JACKSON JR'S MURDERER WAS PAID

NO ROBBERY

Trivia involving ali frazier III fight: After the Ali-Frazier fight, Jackson returned home and found intruders in his house. He was reportedly told to get down on his knees and then shot fatally five times in the back. Around 3:00 a.m. on October 1 1975, Barbara Jackson ran out in the street, yelling for help. She told police that burglars had tied her up and then shot her husband when he returned home. Police found nothing in the house out of place and Al Jackson's wallet and jewelry were still on him. The man police believed to have pulled the trigger had reportedly known someone in Memphis and after robbing a bank in Florida, told them to meet him over at Al Jackson's house. Tracked through Florida to Memphis to Seattle, Washington, the suspected paid triggerman was killed by a police officer on July 15 1976, after a gun battle as stated

HERE: en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Al_Jackson,_Jr.&diff=364734205&oldid=364733994 BEST VER The man police believed to have pulled the trigger was the then-boyfriend of R&B singer Denise LaSalle WHO STILL REMAIN THE main SUSPECTS!! !

Ali's Real Name ???

Why does the infobox identify Ali's "Real Name" as Cassius Clay, Jr.? No matter how upset some people got about his name change, it was changed. Cassius Clay, Jr., was his original name or birth name. His "Real Name" has been Muhammad Ali for almost 50 years. --Komowkwa (talk) 02:49, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

OK!

Sufism

Sufism almost always falls under, and is considered a legitimate part of "Sunni Islam", especially the brand Muhammad Ali is inclined towards. Most importantly, his public statements are that he is a Sunni Muslim, and visits a Sunni Mosque. The sentence seems to give the impression that he's converted to something 'different' to Sunni Islam. Perhaps this should expressed more clearly? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.96.92.44 (talk) 18:21, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

1960's

It has been noted since the 1960's that Cassius Clay is three sixteenths white. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.194.200 (talk) 14:34, 19 June 2010 (UTC)