Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Muhammad images/Workshop: Difference between revisions
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:::So books by the foremost scholars of Islam in the Western world, like those of Annemarie Schimmel (e.g. [http://digilib.bc.edu/reserves/th161/delo/th16109.pdf][http://digilib.bc.edu/reserves/th161/delo/th16108.pdf]), university press-published, with [http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&q=inauthor%3A%22annemarie+Schimmel%22&btnG=Search&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_ylo=&as_vis=0 hundreds of citations] in the scholarly literature, that have been required reading in innumerable university courses – in other words, sources that are as mainstream and establishment as you can get in the real world, beyond the world of South Park – should be deemed "biased" in Wikipedia because they are openly celebratory of mainstream Islamic imagery? --'''<font color="#0000FF">[[User:Jayen466|J]]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">[[User_Talk:Jayen466|N]]</font><font color="#0000FF">[[Special:Contributions/Jayen466|466]]</font>''' 19:59, 26 December 2011 (UTC) |
:::So books by the foremost scholars of Islam in the Western world, like those of Annemarie Schimmel (e.g. [http://digilib.bc.edu/reserves/th161/delo/th16109.pdf][http://digilib.bc.edu/reserves/th161/delo/th16108.pdf]), university press-published, with [http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&q=inauthor%3A%22annemarie+Schimmel%22&btnG=Search&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_ylo=&as_vis=0 hundreds of citations] in the scholarly literature, that have been required reading in innumerable university courses – in other words, sources that are as mainstream and establishment as you can get in the real world, beyond the world of South Park – should be deemed "biased" in Wikipedia because they are openly celebratory of mainstream Islamic imagery? --'''<font color="#0000FF">[[User:Jayen466|J]]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">[[User_Talk:Jayen466|N]]</font><font color="#0000FF">[[Special:Contributions/Jayen466|466]]</font>''' 19:59, 26 December 2011 (UTC) |
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:::: [[Annemarie Schimmel]] "had defended the outrage of the Islamic world against Salman Rushdie" (or more precisely "thinks that the Iranian death sentence against Salman Rushdie was understandable. And she has said so." [http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/the-itch-of-guilt-wont-go-away-while-rushdie-remains-condemned-1592903.html]). Hmm. How about someone less controversial like [[William Montgomery Watt]]? His book ''Muhammad: prophet and statesman'' [http://books.google.com/books?id=zLN2hNidLw4C] does not have any miniatures, but has no calligraphy either! In only has MAPS. Ergo, by the JN466 logic, every other type of picture is UNDUE in the Muhammad article. Brilliant, isn't it? [[User:ASCIIn2Bme|ASCIIn2Bme]] ([[User talk:ASCIIn2Bme|talk]]) 21:14, 26 December 2011 (UTC) |
:::: [[Annemarie Schimmel]] "had defended the outrage of the Islamic world against Salman Rushdie" (or more precisely "thinks that the Iranian death sentence against Salman Rushdie was understandable. And she has said so." [http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/the-itch-of-guilt-wont-go-away-while-rushdie-remains-condemned-1592903.html]). Hmm. How about someone less controversial like [[William Montgomery Watt]]? His book ''Muhammad: prophet and statesman'' [http://books.google.com/books?id=zLN2hNidLw4C] does not have any miniatures, but has no calligraphy either! In only has MAPS. Ergo, by the JN466 logic, every other type of picture is UNDUE in the Muhammad article. Brilliant, isn't it? [[User:ASCIIn2Bme|ASCIIn2Bme]] ([[User talk:ASCIIn2Bme|talk]]) 21:14, 26 December 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::So what? She is probably the most cited Muhammad scholar |
:::::So what? She is probably the most cited Muhammad scholar of the last fifty years, winner of dozens of international awards, taught at Harvard for 25 years, as well as in Bonn, Ankara, Teheran, London and Edinburgh ... would you like us to prefer your judgment to that of the academic mainstream? And instead go by "Mr Hankey" and ''South Park''? --'''<font color="#0000FF">[[User:Jayen466|J]]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">[[User_Talk:Jayen466|N]]</font><font color="#0000FF">[[Special:Contributions/Jayen466|466]]</font>''' 21:49, 26 December 2011 (UTC) |
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====[[WP:NOTCENSORED]] and [[WP:NPOV]]==== |
====[[WP:NOTCENSORED]] and [[WP:NPOV]]==== |
Revision as of 21:51, 26 December 2011
Case clerk: TBD Drafting arbitrator: TBD
Wikipedia Arbitration |
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Track related changes |
This is a page for working on Arbitration decisions. The Arbitrators, parties to the case, and other editors may draft proposals and post them to this page for review and comments. Proposals may include proposed general principles, findings of fact, remedies, and enforcement provisions—the same format as is used in Arbitration Committee decisions. The bottom of the page may be used for overall analysis of the /Evidence and for general discussion of the case.
Any user may edit this workshop page. Please sign all suggestions and comments. Arbitrators will place proposed items they believe should be part of the final decision on the /Proposed decision page, which only Arbitrators and clerks may edit, for voting, clarification as well as implementation purposes.
Motions and requests by the parties
Avoid rehashing the actual debate
1) We've already seen one section hatted because it degenerated into a tussle. So, I request that all of us involved try to avoid repeating the arguments of the past month or two in this Arbcom case. Some back-and-forth is expected and healthy in our various evidences and workshop entries, but when making a response, if a thought comes to your mind like "damn, I've already told him this before, why do I have to do it again?", chances are you probably don't. Tarc (talk) 18:07, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
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- Seems reasonable enough. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 13:35, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what that actually means, but I'm amenable to it. What precisely constitutes 'rehashing', just so we all know what we're supposed to be avoiding? --Ludwigs2 13:48, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- Well, that, perhaps. It really ain't going anywhere productive. Tarc (talk) 14:46, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- lol - that pretty much covers our entire discussion to date, so unless you're suggesting we sit in silence a somewhat more useful definition might be in order. To be frank, I don't want to badger anyone, but I do want the distinction between valid disagreement and mere wp:IDHT to be clear, and I don't know how to point that out except by what might be considered 'rehashing' to the IDHT side. --Ludwigs2 15:29, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- Exactly. Merry XMas. Tarc (talk) 15:48, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- Wonderfully bad faith response; I ask for for some insight and all I get is tripe. Go grinch someone else, please. --Ludwigs2 16:05, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- Oy vey. I'm just saying try to recognize when you're going to far on you own, i.e. self-restraint. Like right now, this back-and-forth has IMO come to a point where nothing else good will come of it, so this should be my last point. Tarc (talk) 16:35, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- Ok, that's clear at least. thanks. --Ludwigs2 16:48, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- Seems reasonable enough. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 13:35, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
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- That would be very helpful. AGK [•] 09:33, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
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Proposed temporary injunctions
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Questions to the parties
(1) Current article and image use
It was said during the debate at Talk:Muhammad/images that the images are being included in the article either for the sake of including images or as a knee-jerk response to ostensible censorship. In your view, are the images presently in the article useful to the reader and do they add to the quality of the article? If we removed the images or used very few (as reportedly is the case in the sources, most of which use few images of Muhammad), would the article be better or worse off? Please explain briefly why in both cases. AGK [•] 04:04, 23 December 2011 (UTC) Jayen466
Tarc
ASCIIn2BmeThe huge mistake made by JNN466, Ludwidgs2, and their followers is the assumption that the article on Muhammand should solely recount his life and eschew any discussion on the ulterior perception thereof through the centuries, even though the latter had far more of an impact on history than the few battles between the dunes during Muhammad's life. You cannot draw a line in the sand in that article and keep it confined to a dry, sketchy account of his life. It's the ulterior interpretation of those events that is of far greater significance. And that interpretation has varied and diverged quite a bit over time and space. Asking for the article to be written solely from the viewpoint of current mainstream Islamic faith (if you can even pin it down) is definitely not NPOV. It's like asking the article on Jesus to be written only considering the current dogmatic view of the Vatican. And this includes the selection of imagery. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 16:29, 23 December 2011 (UTC) The demand that an image needs to be included in the majority of reliable sources, never mind "across the entirety" thereof, as a precondition for its inclusion in Wikipedia is ludicrous for the reasons I detailed in the collapsed section on CENSORED vs. NPOV. I'm not going to repeat myself again on that. I think none of the images in the article meet that putative standard, be they anthropomorphic or calligraphic. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 17:38, 23 December 2011 (UTC) As for "trivial value" and "whimsical depictions created generations after Muhammad's death" arguments by Ludwig2 below, the exact same expressions can be said about the calligraphic depictions. Even more so in fact, because this is the English Wikipedia, and few readers can fathom what the Arabic calligraphy means. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 18:00, 23 December 2011 (UTC) Since Eraserhead not picked up the banner of applying "WP:DUE balance of pictures" to image types, here's an apocryphal story that should be enlightening. The article on the Siege of Rhodes (1522) has only one source that is full of imagery, the recent book by Nossov. The older books have very little if any visual material. Now lo and behold! Nossov's book in doesn't have ANY pictures of guns! It's all architecture: dozens of pictures though. Should we delete or drastically prune the images of guns from the article unless someone can produce a reliable source having lots images of guns from the battle? After all, some people, pacifists especially, may be offended by images of guns! The WPDUE [wikibeancounter] score is: walls 25 (or thereabout), guns 0! So, unless someone can find another source about this topic with tons of guns depicted, the putative principle of "balance of the image types in sources" requires we soonish delete most if not all the guns from that article! Let there be WP:DUE balance of image types?! Or not? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 18:41, 23 December 2011 (UTC) r to L2: Thanks for the snotty lecture on VNT. If you actually had a look at the article, you'd see that the images of guns there are from authentic pieces from Musée de l'Armée. I think the plaques next to the guns there, as well as their inscriptions on the guns themselves are sufficient WP:V-wise to document those pieces were at least part of the besieged's equipment, if not actually fired in anger at that time. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 22:11, 23 December 2011 (UTC) Ludwigs2The images have a certain trivial value. They are decorative illustrations, and one or two of them might be desirable to exemplify a notable but relatively minor art-historical movement in Islamic history. Beyond that, none of them have any clear and demonstrable use in the article. While they are not unrelated to the topic at hand, at best they constitute religious iconography - whimsical depictions created generations after Muhammad's death (not accurate depictions of Muhammad or the events of his life) with little to no informational value in their own right. They even misinform the reader to a certain extent, since they are not clearly labeled as religious iconography and may lead people to believe they are accurate depictions. Note that I do not deny the usefulness of images for solidifying knowledge, even when somewhat whimsically drawn. I'm simply stating that the given images of Muhammad are not even close to being useful and informative in the same sense as the picture at right. I don't think anyone has ever argued that the images have zero value. My argument all along is that the images do not add sufficient quality to the article to merit invocation of NOTCENSORED. NOTCENSORED is intended to protect the encyclopedia from losing valuable information, not to protect Wikipedia editors' rights to 'free speech.' There has to be some lower limit where we acknowledge that the negligible cost to the encyclopedia of losing images like this is outweighed by the significant cost to the encyclopedia of offending the religious beliefs of a sizable segment of our readership. In my view, paring down the number of images and constraining them to particular sections where they have clear and unambiguous use (e.g. a section on the art-historical tradition or a section on the image controversy) would not change the informativeness of the article at all. It would be just as good an article without these pictures, but the conflicts that plague the page would disappear. The mere fact of having a clear and unambiguous use to point to would resolve most the page problems; as it stands, Wikipedia appears to be showing these controversial images for no particular reason, and that does not reflect well on the encyclopedia. --Ludwigs2 17:51, 23 December 2011 (UTC) r to ASCIIn2Bme Yes, you're right that the same can be said about the calligraphic images. However, the calligraphic images have two advantages over full-faced images:
The calligraphic images can be used because there is no countervailing issue offsetting their marginal value to the article; for figurative images there is a countervailing issue, so the standard for including such images ought to be higher. With respect to your 'Siege of Rhodes' comment: you are confusing Verifiability with Truth. The fact that you know in you own head that they must have used weapons at the siege of Rhodes (though I doubt they used guns in 305 BCE), we would still follow what sources say. If no sources covering the siege ever mention weapons, then we couldn't talk about weapons in the article, could we? So why would we have a separate standard for images? You might have a case on that page that the one source with images is not representative of the subject (in which case you could argue that we shouldn't use images from it), but that hardly compares to this case where we have a plethora of sources to establish a standard. Further, if we added an image to that article of (say) a typical greek siege engine or catapult, it would have a clear use and purpose (displaying the kinds of weapons that were likely used in the battle), as opposed to the Muhammad images which are not useful depictions of anything. Apples and Oranges… --Ludwigs2 19:26, 23 December 2011 (UTC) Eraserhead1I think pictures should be present in the article to some extent. I think the balance of pictures and calligraphy in the article should reflect their usage by our reliable sources as per WP:DUE. We should be following this balance so this WP:VITAL article is kept in line with the WP:NPOV policy. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:43, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
ElonkaI am not a party to this particular dispute, though I edit in several other closely related articles about Islamic topics such as Black Stone, Kaaba, and Hajj. After reviewing the Muhammad article as it exists today,[1] in my opinion the article is giving undue weight to figurative images of Muhammad. Based on my knowledge of dozens of Islam-related sources (even mainstream movies), the representations of Muhammad are predominantly in words, verbal descriptions by contemporaries, and extremely elaborate calligraphy -- not in visual depictions. Most of the images of Muhammad in the Wikipedia article do nothing to add to its quality, portray the subject in a different way than is normally presented in sources, and could be easily moved to other locations, such as to Depictions of Muhammad, where they would be more appropriate. Some images could reasonably stay, such as those which show how Muhammad tends to be represented in Islamic art (veiled, or as a flame), but more images than that would be excessive. --Elonka 23:04, 23 December 2011 (UTC) JohnbodI think the pictures are certainly useful and, as the selection has evolved, well-balanced. As far as I am concerned we are already using "few" images by our usual standards. If there were no religious concerns we would certainly have more, and they would be differently placed, not kept off the first four screens down (on my machine). We always use more images than "other sources" who have to pay for picture rights. The obvious comparator, Jesus, has 46 images, 37 including a depiction of Jesus and 9 not. Muhammad has 25 images, 6 depictions of him, 10 calligraphy (already too many in my view) and 9 other - and also long sections with no illustration at all. Buddha, which is a good deal shorter than either, has 14 images, 12 including him and 2 that don't. So percentages of total images showing the subject are: Muhammad 15%; Jesus 81%; Buddha 86%. Comparisons to Jesus and Buddha are also relevant to the "not historical portraits" and "not typical" arguments advanced above by Ludwigs2, Jayen and Elonka above, and others in the original talk page discussions. The conventional images of Jesus and Buddha are also not based on any historically authentic depiction, though there are verbal ones for Buddha and Muhammad but not Jesus. The plethora of images of Jesus we show are nearly all drawn from the narrow period of Renaissance/Baroque Roman Catholicism, and are far from representative of the broad history of Christianity across time and place, and in particular obviously do not reflect the objection many Protestant churches still have to such images, and all of them once had. Probably some Protestants are still offended by such imagery, though not in such violent terms as their 16th century forbears, though I suppose they realize it would be pointless to object. Johnbod (talk) 22:46, 23 December 2011 (UTC) ResoluteMany of the "opponents" (for wont of a better word) of the depictions are applying an inaccurate scale to this debate. They seem to be arguing that zero is the minimum and six (the current total) is the maximum, therefore any compromise position must be a number between the two This is incorrect. The maximum number of depictions is "as many as we can fit into this article". Commons:Category:Muhammad has over 100 Muslim drawn depictions, and over 40 western (half of which belong in "Everybody draw Mohammad day"). With respect to Jayen's arguments on due weight, picked up on by others, I would point out that there are 25 images total on the article as of right now. Only five of them are Islamic depictions, two of which are defaced. I would argue that the article already reflects Jayen's arguments. This is also why I argue below that the use of images in this article is already in a compromise state. Johnbod is dead on in his assessment that there would certainly be far more such depictions if not for some level of deference to Islamic belief. I consider this a fair arrangement: We have shown a nod toward Islamic religious belief by limiting the number and placement of images. To do more, however, would violate WP:NOTCENSORED and WP:NPOV. Consequently, I categorically reject the claim that these images are included only as a "knee-jerk response". In my view, the depictions most certainly aids the article. And the truth is, this should be so self-evident that such a question should not even need to be asked. They are direct representations of the article subject, in most cases showing the subject during a notable moment of their life. Their very nature is educational: they reveal how Muhhamad has been viewed throughout history, even by Muslims. The very fact that we have 100 Islamic depictions and nearly 150 total should make it self-evident people throughout history have found value in such imagery. I believe we do too, exactly as we do on any other article subject. Resolute 23:48, 23 December 2011 (UTC) AlanscottwalkerThe images are educationally useful. If they need to be further contextualized by the text, to avoid unwanted implication, than that can be readily done. The Muhammad article is the biography of a man -- this is not an article whose purpose is art, art history, religion, or architecture. It is apparent by looking at them that the images in the article bear some kind of naturalistic representation of the man, Muhammad, although they are certainly not photographic. (Indeed, it is the fact that they do so, that gives rise to any religious objection that they could be idolotrous). They are images of a man, that all have said is the man Muhammad, doing things that are important in the story of his life. Although it is far from relevant for this article and our purposes, for further information, if one were inclined to look at the history of the art, two of the (unveiled) images (those seem to be the most objected to), in the article, were created for what has been called the "first history of the world," Jami' al-tawarikh, by the extraordinary scholar Rashid-al-Din Hamadani. [2] This work was planned to be published in Arabic and Persian, and distributed to schools in cities throughout the middle east. (Id.) Extensive research went into writing this history that covered civilizations from China to Europe. (Id.) Hamadani also published 4 volumns of the Hadith and many other books. According to our article on the Jami, the images of Muhammad were painted under the direction of Hamadani and the artist named, Lohrasp, who painted in the "Arab, Syrian and Mesopotamian" tradition. The one other unveiled image is from a book created for the Ottoman emperor. We are also using them for secular purposes and presenting them in a respectful, secular way. From the forgoing, and the number of images in our Wikimedia galleries, as well as, their extensive use on our sister projects, about Muhammed, in many languages, it is evident that we are far from the first people who have thought of illustrating the life of Muhammad, with pictures of him, for educational purpose. With respect to the most recent discussion of the current images, and the proposal that was being discussed, when it was interrupted: The central nub is there were three very small camps of editors: status quo, uncommitted to particular images or numbers but think the present images serve their purpose; and those who don't want any figurative, especially, unveiled, images of Muhammad in the biography sections of the article. This biography article, like many other such articles contains, at its core, a large section on the person's life: the biography sections. We assume the good faith of those who placed the images in the biography sections. They have stayed there and are presumed to have consensus, especially when they have been discussed. With respect to the unveiled images, they do illustrate important things about him and his life: including, but not limited to, the clashing, polytheistic, tribal society he came from; the claimed revelations; and the rule of a newly united people he established, while proclaiming the revelations. There are multiple other images in the article, including prominently, calligraphy. Others have spoken to the view that the way the article is now is already a concession to the demands of the subject matter, unlike any other biography. The proposal under discussion was a radical departure from the status quo. It will take time and perhaps a more structured process, and specification of rules, to move through that. Whatever the outcome, the rules should not be based on, imo, art history (widely tangential to the subject of a biography), or, certainly not, with limiting use because of the religion or culture of the artist (widely tangential and discriminatory), or the religion of the particular reader/editor (not allowed by policy). We should prefer that they be based on whether they illustrate something important Muhammad was personally claimed to be involved with, and properly contextualized. The rules and results should also have wide consensus, generally applicable to every article presentation. Alanscottwalker (talk) 02:15, 24 December 2011 (UTC) FormerIPIncluding images for the sake of including images is good enough. That's what we normally do. Including images as a knee-jerk response to ostensible censorship would be a violation of WP:POINT. If there is any serious claim that this has happened, then this should be explored. But I don't think it is something that is seriously in issue (at least, I have not seen it raised in those terms). It is not the case that the sources use "very few" images of Mohammed. The sources simply present the dilemma: should we use images of the subject of the article, or should we use pictures of sunsets, sand dunes and random mosques as placeholders? I think the answer to this is that we should reject as a model any source that does not appear to follow WP's guidelines for selecting images (we are not censored, and images should have direct relevance to the accompanying text).--FormerIP (talk) 02:09, 25 December 2011 (UTC) |
(2) Basing Wikipedia coverage on secondary sources
Thank you to the parties who have responded to my first question. Anybody who has not responded is still welcome to do so, and I will continue to read all submissions to this section. Also, other members of the committee may want to pose further questions - I'm not sure if they will. At this point, I have two further sections to add. To avoid blurring the lines between answers, if an editor wants to respond to both questions, please do so separately. I was heartened to see the parties get behind a proposal to base the use of multimedia within Muhammad on that of the main secondary sources. As editors, it is important that we explore different approaches and develop new rules for articles that are the subject of unusual debates. However, I have some concern about that proposal. Wikipedia uses reliable sources to verify the content of our articles. Primary and secondary sources may provide useful guidance in how to treat specific questions of the coverage of subjects, but even if a source is unquestionably reliable it cannot be used to dictate a Wikipedia article on the associated subject, because Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and most reliable sources are not. The purpose of Wikipedia is often different from the purpose of textbooks, academic texts, journals, or other sources. Therefore, Wikipedia does not merely collate reliable sources, but instead amalgamates the material on a subject into a neutral, verified article. Where the specifics of such an amalgamation are disputed, editorial consensus (and dispute resolution if consensus cannot be reached) must be used; it follows that we would not deliberately reflect the use of images within secondary sources in the use of images in our own article. Do you agree or disagree, and why? AGK [•] 22:23, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
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(3) Policy holds that Muhammad must contain images
As an online project, Wikipedia has the advantage of making use of online images and other multimedia to improve the reader's understanding of the subject of our articles. However, decisions to include or exclude an image in an article must focus only on whether the image is appropriate to include in a given article. The community has decided that an image may be included if it improves the reader's understanding of the associated content and if the image looks like what it means to illustrate. Images that are not provably authentic may still be included if it improves the reader's understanding of the article subject, especially if authentic images (like photographs or contemporary drawings) are unavailable. Policy holds that Muhammad should contain images of Muhammad himself, even if those images are not contemporary or not direct images of him. Do you agree or disagree, and why? Do you think that, within reason, the argument that including many images of Muhammad implies he was widely covered by contemporary artists is therefore secondary to the need to show the readers images of the subject - as is the case in almost every other article? Why or why not? AGK [•] 22:23, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
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Proposed final decision
Proposals by User:Jayen466
Proposed principles
Wikipedia is not censored
1) Wikipedia is not censored. Wikipedia includes educational content that may cause offence if inclusion is due according to the neutral point of view – representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Proposed. Needs to be said for future reference.--JN466 11:39, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed. --Ludwigs2 13:07, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- Agreed. --Elonka 00:49, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- True, but not in the sense that Jayen466 attempts to use it. While we must apply NPOV, we must also use some common sense in evaluating these sources. A source that defers to Muslim sensitivities about depicting Mohammed must be considered to be a biased source when making that evaluation.—Kww(talk) 16:19, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- So books by the foremost scholars of Islam in the Western world, like those of Annemarie Schimmel (e.g. [6][7]), university press-published, with hundreds of citations in the scholarly literature, that have been required reading in innumerable university courses – in other words, sources that are as mainstream and establishment as you can get in the real world, beyond the world of South Park – should be deemed "biased" in Wikipedia because they are openly celebratory of mainstream Islamic imagery? --JN466 19:59, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Annemarie Schimmel "had defended the outrage of the Islamic world against Salman Rushdie" (or more precisely "thinks that the Iranian death sentence against Salman Rushdie was understandable. And she has said so." [8]). Hmm. How about someone less controversial like William Montgomery Watt? His book Muhammad: prophet and statesman [9] does not have any miniatures, but has no calligraphy either! In only has MAPS. Ergo, by the JN466 logic, every other type of picture is UNDUE in the Muhammad article. Brilliant, isn't it? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 21:14, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- So what? She is probably the most cited Muhammad scholar of the last fifty years, winner of dozens of international awards, taught at Harvard for 25 years, as well as in Bonn, Ankara, Teheran, London and Edinburgh ... would you like us to prefer your judgment to that of the academic mainstream? And instead go by "Mr Hankey" and South Park? --JN466 21:49, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Annemarie Schimmel "had defended the outrage of the Islamic world against Salman Rushdie" (or more precisely "thinks that the Iranian death sentence against Salman Rushdie was understandable. And she has said so." [8]). Hmm. How about someone less controversial like William Montgomery Watt? His book Muhammad: prophet and statesman [9] does not have any miniatures, but has no calligraphy either! In only has MAPS. Ergo, by the JN466 logic, every other type of picture is UNDUE in the Muhammad article. Brilliant, isn't it? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 21:14, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- So books by the foremost scholars of Islam in the Western world, like those of Annemarie Schimmel (e.g. [6][7]), university press-published, with hundreds of citations in the scholarly literature, that have been required reading in innumerable university courses – in other words, sources that are as mainstream and establishment as you can get in the real world, beyond the world of South Park – should be deemed "biased" in Wikipedia because they are openly celebratory of mainstream Islamic imagery? --JN466 19:59, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
2) WP:NOTCENSORED does not override WP:NPOV, including WP:DUE.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
Closed discussion. AGK [•] 04:06, 23 December 2011 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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- The discussion associated with this workshop proposal has surpassed its usefulness. AGK [•] 04:06, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Images are subject to WP:NPOV
3) Images, like other article content, are subject to the WP:NPOV policy, specifically WP:DUE. In contentious cases, editors should make a good-faith attempt to base their selection and inclusion of images available for article illustration on the prevalence of the same or equivalent types of imagery in reliable sources on the article topic.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Proposed. Editors are generally given wide leeway in selecting article illustrations. But while the use of images for article illustration is often uncontroversial, and constrained by the pool of image files available, in contentious cases reliable sources should be used as a reference point to decide what types of images to include, and how prominently to include them. --JN466 15:48, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- This proposal is wrongheaded. Whilst reference to sources may be of use in choosing imagery for an article, it is not keeping with either NPOV or general WP practice to suggest that choice of imagery should duplicate what is found in a (hypothetical and elusive) average or typical source. NPOV is not a quest for an average. Our article on Justin Bieber, for example, does not have an abnormally high picture-to-text ratio and does not have washed-out love hearts in the background, even though these are things that may well characterise an "average" source on the subject. NPOV only applies to images insofar as they represent a "view" (ideological, rather than pictorial). What we are dealing with here, though, are views about religious preferences and about editorial decision-making, rather than views about the subject of the article. I would say this makes NPOV moot.
- However, even in the case that the images are held to represent a "view" for the purposes of NPOV, applying it would not give the result intended, because an honest examination of sources would not justify the removal of any images of Mohammed from the article (of course, "honest" here is in the eye of the beholder and it is likely that anyone examining sources will end up concluding whatever it was they set out to). --FormerIP (talk) 17:08, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- I see no evidence that images of Bieber in reliable sources customarily feature hearts (notwithstanding the presence of a few such images on fan sites). But if, for argument's sake, 20% of images in reliable sources were of that type, it would be entirely appropriate for us to feature one too, to reflect a significant aspect of his popular reception. --JN466 17:25, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- Your google must be censoring hearts, because there are quite a few images there with hearts depicted. In triplicate on some. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 00:25, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- I see no evidence that images of Bieber in reliable sources customarily feature hearts (notwithstanding the presence of a few such images on fan sites). But if, for argument's sake, 20% of images in reliable sources were of that type, it would be entirely appropriate for us to feature one too, to reflect a significant aspect of his popular reception. --JN466 17:25, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
What this seems like is that Jayen has already decided that there should be less images of Muhammad in the article, then goes out to try and shape existing policy to support that conclusion. To me, that is a backwards approach to editing. Tarc (talk) 20:38, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- Given NPOV is non-negotiable I would have thought this was obvious... -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:02, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- NPOV is indeed non-negotiable, but the heart of this dispute is conflicting interpretations of what it means to meet NPOV in this subject area. Tarc (talk) 21:06, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- This seems clearly to be an attempt to craft Wikipedia policy around this one specific case. Actually, we've got well established, time-tested doctrine which is clear even here; what we have are a small handful of POV warriors trying to rewrite the rules or filibuster their opposition into submission, whichever comes first. It's ludicrous saying that "reliable sources" should determine image selection; our pool of possible images ultimately determines which images are used in a given article, and editorial consensus determines that. There is a majority view and a minority view on this matter in this specific case. The minority refuses to go away on the matter and has engaged in disruptive behavior in an effort to win the day. Seven-eighths of this problem can be resolved with three well placed topic bans, and the other one-eighth can be resolved by agreement among the remaining editors. That's the truth. Carrite (talk) 19:32, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- This seems like a reasonable principle which is in line with Wikipedia policy. --Elonka 23:06, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- Sounds good in theory, but in practice you can either include or not include an image. If sources disagree, you don't have the flexibility to escape to the metalanguage of attribution as you have for text. Furthermore, an image may lack from a source for a variety of reasons, which have nothing to do with wp:undue (printing costs, etc.) And determining the balance of images in practice still comes down to editorial judgement. Mechanical bean counting can have absurd results, as I showed in my reply to AGK's questions above. Practical test: should the article on Xenu include those cartoon pictures based on the NPOV test as JN466 conceives it? Do they appear in the majority of sources on Xenu? I doubt it. Is South Park a reliable source about Xenu? JN466 actually contested the inclusion of that image as UNDUE (Talk:Xenu#In popular culture) and the discussion got very, very long. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 05:33, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- I seem to recall that the upshot was that one or two of the cartoon images were deleted, and that whole section got shortened quite a bit. ;) The thing with Xenu is, there is not very much scholarly literature about it at all, so popular press sources – which have indeed referred to South Park etc. – actually deserve some weight, because there isn't much else to write an article with. But do you propose that our article on a topic like Muhammad, with a scholarly tradition stretching back hundreds of years, should be constructed on the mental level of South Park? --JN466 20:08, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Once again, true, but not in the sense that Jayen466 attempts to use it. While we must apply NPOV, we must also use some common sense in evaluating these sources. A source that defers to Muslim sensitivities about depicting Mohammed must be considered to be a biased source when making that evaluation. In general, a book by someone that considers Muhammad to be a prophet must be treated very suspiciously when searching for material about Muhammad the historical figure. Otherwise, we risk having further travesty articles like Jesus myth theory, which presents the astonishing notion that most Christians believe the evidence supports the existence of Jesus Christ.—Kww(talk) 16:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Once more, with feeling – so books by the foremost scholars of Islam in the Western world, like those of Annemarie Schimmel (e.g. [10][11]), university press-published, with hundreds of citations in the scholarly literature, that have been required reading in innumerable university courses – in other words, sources that are as mainstream and establishment as you can get in the real world, beyond the world of South Park – should be deemed "biased" in Wikipedia because they are openly celebratory of mainstream Islamic imagery? --JN466 20:08, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Without considering the specific source, yes absolutely. If a source carries an identifiable bias, we should treat it as a source that carries a bias. Surely that's uncontroversial? --FormerIP (talk) 21:47, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Good research: NPOV and sourcing
4) Good and unbiased research, based upon the best and most reputable authoritative sources available, helps prevent NPOV disagreements.
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- Comment by parties:
- Proposed. Verbatim policy quote from Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Good_research. --JN466 20:32, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with this. The sooner the good and unbiased research can begin, the better. --FormerIP (talk) 20:39, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
Proposed findings of fact
Depictions of Muhammad are controversial
1) Depictions of Muhammad are controversial both on-wiki and off-wiki, as highlighted in recent years by the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy, and extensive edit-warring about images in the article Muhammad in the years since then.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Proposed, for context. --JN466 10:49, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- Support generally, though would recommend including the timeframe of the controversy (2005), that the edit-warring occurs in multiple Muhammad-related articles, and that the controversy is much older, not just Jyllands- and wiki-related.[12] --Elonka 00:39, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. The nature of the controversy is one which is irrelevant to the project, and must be ignored while making all policy and editorial decisions.—Kww(talk) 16:28, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
WMF Resolution on controversial content
2) In 2010, the Wikimedia Foundation commissioned a study on controversial content, and in May 2011 passed a Resolution concerning controversial content. The Resolution specifically mentioned religious content that may be offensive to some viewers, and Muhammad images were highlighted in the Wikimedia study, linked to in the Resolution. The WMF resolution urges the community to pay particular attention to curating all kinds of potentially controversial content, including determining whether it has a realistic educational use and applying the principle of least astonishment in categorization and placement
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Proposed. Per Elonka, with some details added. --JN466 10:49, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- Agree with adjusted wording. It's definitely worth mentioning that the Wikimedia study specifically referred to this exact topic, images of Muhammad, as an example of controversial content. --Elonka 23:47, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- Some thoughts added at Elonka's submission, but I agree that the WMF resolution and study has come to guide the community - and this committee's - thinking about controversial content, and that it must therefore be mentioned in the final decision. AGK [•] 16:36, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Agree with adjusted wording. It's definitely worth mentioning that the Wikimedia study specifically referred to this exact topic, images of Muhammad, as an example of controversial content. --Elonka 23:47, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Battleground editing
3) The Muhammad article has been subject to battleground editing by editors with strongly held views on religion, free speech and censorship. A number of past and present contributors appear solely interested in the issue regarding the inclusion or exclusion of Muhammad images, and are not participating in any other part of editing or expansion of the article.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Proposed. --JN466 10:49, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- @ASCIIn2Bme: No. While the discussions have been extensive, my interest and editing in the article is certainly not limited to the Muhammad image issue. --JN466 01:25, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Proposed. --JN466 10:49, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- Are you including yourself in that category? Because the ratio of your substantial, non-image edits to the article relative to number of edits you have made to the images talk sub-page surely points in that direction. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 11:24, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- Agree with the Battleground finding, though it might be worth expanding it from just the Muhammad article, to say "The Muhammad article and other Islam- or Muhammad-related articles". For example, images that have anything to do with Muhammad are routinely deleted and restored in a battleground fashion at Black Stone, Isra and Mi'raj, and other locations. --Elonka 23:55, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Increase in number of images since the cartoon controversy
4) The number of images of Muhammad, and especially unveiled images of Muhammad, increased sharply in the wake of the Jyllands-Posten cartoon controversy, and increased further after the article gained GA status in 2008.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Proposed. --JN466 10:57, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- @Elonka: There is circumstantial evidence. See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Muhammad_images/Evidence#Article_history. About half the Muhammad images in Commons were uploaded from http://zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/, a site set up in response to the Jyllands-Posten controversy. --JN466 00:58, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Proposed. --JN466 10:57, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- Is there evidence to support this? The controversy was in 2005, so it might be difficult to state whether the number of images increased because of the controversy, or whether it was just a natural part of Wikipedia's growth at the time. --Elonka 00:41, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Proposed remedies
Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.
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Proposals by User:Eraserhead1
Proposed remedies
Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.
Mentoring for Ludwigs2
1) As per ASCIIn2Bme's evidence Ludwigs2 takes it too far on many occasions, mentoring to give him a better idea of acceptable behaviour would in my view be useful.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- This is in addition to any other remedies that are considered appropriate by the committee. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:34, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- Mentoring is for relatively new but over-aggressive/eager editors that others feel can be a valued contributor if given a bit of guidance. Ludwigs has been around the block much to long for that; this length of time spent in the Wikipedia community has given him more than enough familiarity with norms and practices here. If Ludwigs runs afoul of those, that is his choice; he knows better. Tarc (talk) 22:53, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- I don't think mentoring can work for someone who is being disruptive with a self-declared expectation of being "martyred". See Resolute's evidence. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 05:37, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with above. Ludwigs2 has passed the point where mentoring would make a difference --Guerillero | My Talk 21:42, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
- Personally I disagree and mentoring has been considered a reasonable option for editors with much longer block logs than Ludwigs in the past. That said of course the arbitration committee should be the ones to decide whether to take this point forward. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:39, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
- I agree in principle, but Ludwigs' own comments make it clear that he doesn't care about consensus or Wikipedia's policies. He's only interested in getting his way, or getting banned in the process. A mentor cannot help someone who refuses to accept that consensus can, and does, go against his viewpoint. Resolute 23:15, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
- Er, of course the arbs will be the ones to decide, eraser; why did you even feel the need to tell us that? Workshop entries have commentary sections for parties to the case, arbs, and others. We're just here weighing in in our respective sections, not passing judgement. Tarc (talk) 00:34, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- Personally I disagree and mentoring has been considered a reasonable option for editors with much longer block logs than Ludwigs in the past. That said of course the arbitration committee should be the ones to decide whether to take this point forward. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:39, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with above. Ludwigs2 has passed the point where mentoring would make a difference --Guerillero | My Talk 21:42, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
- Could links be provided to the evidence please? --Elonka 00:42, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think mentoring can work for someone who is being disruptive with a self-declared expectation of being "martyred". See Resolute's evidence. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 05:37, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Proposals by User:Tarc
Proposed principles
NPOV and external advocacy
1) Adherence to a neutral point of view when crafting an article in the Wikipedia is of the utmost importance, it is what sets an encyclopedia apart from a newspaper, a blog, a think tank's publications, or any similar source where "X is right, !X is wrong" is the aim/goal of the report, rather than the reporting itself. As such, the project cannot allow its coverage of a topic to be affected by external advocacy groups. These groups may believe information should be presented in a certain manner, that some things must be withheld or treated with discretion. To allow their influence into the project and to affect editorial decision-making would compromise our drive to present the neutral point of view.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Assumes facts not in evidence. As far as I am aware, external advocacy groups have played no role in recent discussions. I am happy to be corrected if my assumptions are mistaken, but I see the present discussion to a large extent as one dominated by editors who are primarily motivated to contribute to the article because of free-speech concerns, and/or because they feel that Wikipedia should be, for want of a better expression, "less censored" than its sources (a stance that strikes me as inherently incompatible with NPOV). --JN466 15:49, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- There's no evidence I can see of external advocacy. While some IP editors may possibly have been co-ordinated there is no obvious evidence that this is the case, and its irrelevant with regards to this case as no IP editors have contributed or are named parties. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:31, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- The "external advocacy" is represented by some editors here who argue on a basis of "it is offensive". If it is offensive to somebody, then an editor making this argument is in effect proxying for the external advocates of image removal. Ludwigs himself has explicitly pointed to the large number of archived requests and discussions at Talk:Muhammad/images as proof that a lot of people have voiced opposition to the images, and therefore must be heard. Tarc (talk) 18:12, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- You can make that same "external advocacy" argument about any action or statement made by any user. Generally "external advocacy" is taken to mean that someone has violated WP:CANVASS. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:26, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- Now that I have explained what was actually meant, there should be no more confusion, then. Tarc (talk) 16:27, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- I am significantly more confused. What violations of WP:CANVASS have there been? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:16, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- Facepalm I was never talking about canvassing; you did, and I corrected your mistaken assertion. Many SPA's and IP editors have come to Muhammad/images to argue that they are offended by the images and demand their removal. You, Ludwigs, and Hans Adler have argued that them being offended is a reason to restrict images. A connects to B, you are arguing on their behalf. Tarc (talk) 20:19, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- I see kinda you are coming from as some of the points raised have mentioned previous contributors. But I don't think that's a particularly large part of the argument as quite a bit of it resolves around WP:NPOV.
- With regards to WP:CANVASS I bought it up as that's the relevant guideline. Do you have any evidence that a significant percentage of the editors previously involved in asking for the images to be removed had violated WP:CANVASS or is there another guideline/policy which you can point to which invalidates their contributions? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:40, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- Point of clarity: I have never argued that we should restrict images because "a lot of people have voiced opposition". I've argued that there is a well-known and long-established cultural more against images of Muhammad that out to be considered when we make images choices on this article. I've only mentioned the excessive volume of complaints when you or Resolute or some editor has tried to assert that there is no controversy.
- Facepalm I was never talking about canvassing; you did, and I corrected your mistaken assertion. Many SPA's and IP editors have come to Muhammad/images to argue that they are offended by the images and demand their removal. You, Ludwigs, and Hans Adler have argued that them being offended is a reason to restrict images. A connects to B, you are arguing on their behalf. Tarc (talk) 20:19, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- I am significantly more confused. What violations of WP:CANVASS have there been? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:16, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- Now that I have explained what was actually meant, there should be no more confusion, then. Tarc (talk) 16:27, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- You can make that same "external advocacy" argument about any action or statement made by any user. Generally "external advocacy" is taken to mean that someone has violated WP:CANVASS. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:26, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- The "external advocacy" is represented by some editors here who argue on a basis of "it is offensive". If it is offensive to somebody, then an editor making this argument is in effect proxying for the external advocates of image removal. Ludwigs himself has explicitly pointed to the large number of archived requests and discussions at Talk:Muhammad/images as proof that a lot of people have voiced opposition to the images, and therefore must be heard. Tarc (talk) 18:12, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- There's no evidence I can see of external advocacy. While some IP editors may possibly have been co-ordinated there is no obvious evidence that this is the case, and its irrelevant with regards to this case as no IP editors have contributed or are named parties. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:31, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- Assumes facts not in evidence. As far as I am aware, external advocacy groups have played no role in recent discussions. I am happy to be corrected if my assumptions are mistaken, but I see the present discussion to a large extent as one dominated by editors who are primarily motivated to contribute to the article because of free-speech concerns, and/or because they feel that Wikipedia should be, for want of a better expression, "less censored" than its sources (a stance that strikes me as inherently incompatible with NPOV). --JN466 15:49, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- We've had this discussion before, Tarc. You refuse to acknowledge there's any distinction between "Something some fanatic is offended by" and "Something that offends the practices and standards of an entire culture". Opposing the first is tough-but-reasonable; opposing the second is fanaticism in its own right. Ah, hell, never mind; I'm going to add this as a proposal and let the arbs decide.
- Comment by others:
Islamic prohibitions against images
2) Specific to this topic area, the religious precepts of the Islamic faith that call for depictions of the prophet Muhammad to be veiled or removed altogether cannot be allowed to affect, influence, or color the article Muhammad (or any sub-articles or others within this topic area).
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- Comment by parties:
- It strikes me as prejudicial towards Islam to treat that POV as one that is a priori less valid than others, rather than according it its due weight according to its prevalence in reliable sources. It goes with the territory that Islamic cultural and religious norms have affected the sources we are required to reflect, and have done so for centuries. So if we follow NPOV policy, our article will in turn be affected by these religious precepts, to the extent they are reflected in sources. Many reputable English-language sources on Muhammad are written by Muslims; even non-Muslim authors often see no need to include images of Muhammad, because they are culturally meaningless in the majority of the Islamic world. We cannot retroactively change history. Instead of figurative images, Islamic art has developed its own, word-based iconography surrounding Muhammad and the Quran that is the predominant type of illustration in reliable sources. We should reflect Muhammad's reception accurately. There is no good reason for us to prioritise Islamic art that is both atypical in the Islamic world, and less prevalent in reliable sources. --JN466 15:48, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- @Kww: I am not arguing that we should remove any of the existing images because someone has forbidden them for religious reasons. I am arguing for their reduction because, looking at reliable sources, the number we currently feature is WP:UNDUE, while at the same time we lack images that clearly are WP:DUE. WP:NOT does not protect article content that is in violation of WP:DUE. There are dozens of Muhammad images in Commons. If I added 60 of them in a gallery, would you argue that not a single one must be removed, because someone, somewhere, has prohibited the display of such images? That's the WP:NOTCENSORED tail wagging the WP:NPOV dog, and it's contradicted by the longstanding wording of WP:NOTCENSORED itself. We do not need to feature a surfeit of anything anyone has forbidden, just to prove to the world that we are not cowed, and no such prohibition should cause us to react in a way that makes us depart from WP:NPOV. --JN466 18:04, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- It strikes me as prejudicial towards Islam to treat that POV as one that is a priori less valid than others, rather than according it its due weight according to its prevalence in reliable sources. It goes with the territory that Islamic cultural and religious norms have affected the sources we are required to reflect, and have done so for centuries. So if we follow NPOV policy, our article will in turn be affected by these religious precepts, to the extent they are reflected in sources. Many reputable English-language sources on Muhammad are written by Muslims; even non-Muslim authors often see no need to include images of Muhammad, because they are culturally meaningless in the majority of the Islamic world. We cannot retroactively change history. Instead of figurative images, Islamic art has developed its own, word-based iconography surrounding Muhammad and the Quran that is the predominant type of illustration in reliable sources. We should reflect Muhammad's reception accurately. There is no good reason for us to prioritise Islamic art that is both atypical in the Islamic world, and less prevalent in reliable sources. --JN466 15:48, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- Not a well-drafted point. So called "veiling" or blanking the face of images is not a "precept" (whatever that is) you will find written down anywhere I think, but an artistic convention that emerged gradually. I don't agree with the proposition as put. We already treat the article very differently from other biographies in the quantity, choice and placement of such images, and I am happy with this, and oppose the suggestions of some editors, such as Resolute, whose proposal included adding a "hostile" Western image, which I think would certainly be needlessly provocative here. After that you come to the very specific wording of WP:NOT, quoted by Kww below. Johnbod (talk) 23:34, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- This is specifically covered by WP:NOT:"Wikipedia will not remove content because of the internal bylaws of some organizations that forbid information about the organization to be displayed online. Any rules that forbid members of a given organization, fraternity, or religion to show a name or image do not apply to Wikipedia because Wikipedia is not a member of those organizations." Jayen466's argument is, unfortunately, wrong in its precepts, wrong in its reasoning, and wrong in its ultimate application. Religious POVs are a priori irrelevant to the editorial policies of a secular encyclopedia.They are certainly equal in weight to all other religious POVs, but those POVs are, as a group, not suitable as an influence on our editorial policy.—Kww(talk) 17:30, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- I'll add that there was a sustained, months-long effort by JN466, Ludwigs2 and a handful of other editors to change the part of the policy you are citing. It failed. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 00:35, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- I think it would be helpful if you could provide a link to that discussion archive. NW (Talk) 03:21, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- Well, if you are a masochist, you can read the final section of Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not/Archive 37, where it begins. The argument encompasses ALL of archives 38 and 39, the first half of 40 and two thirds of WT:NOT as it stands right now. Resolute 03:44, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- I think it would be helpful if you could provide a link to that discussion archive. NW (Talk) 03:21, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- I'll add that there was a sustained, months-long effort by JN466, Ludwigs2 and a handful of other editors to change the part of the policy you are citing. It failed. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 00:35, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- This is specifically covered by WP:NOT:"Wikipedia will not remove content because of the internal bylaws of some organizations that forbid information about the organization to be displayed online. Any rules that forbid members of a given organization, fraternity, or religion to show a name or image do not apply to Wikipedia because Wikipedia is not a member of those organizations." Jayen466's argument is, unfortunately, wrong in its precepts, wrong in its reasoning, and wrong in its ultimate application. Religious POVs are a priori irrelevant to the editorial policies of a secular encyclopedia.They are certainly equal in weight to all other religious POVs, but those POVs are, as a group, not suitable as an influence on our editorial policy.—Kww(talk) 17:30, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Proposed findings of fact
TL;DR
1) Several editors have generated an enormous and dense amount of argumentation in their drive to acquiesce to outside religious beliefs, in opposition to Principles #1 and #2. Some have been simply misguided, albeit civil. Others have been belligerent and vitriolic towards those who disagree with them. Some fall in between.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Agree with Resolute; the argumentation has certainly not been one-sided. Risker (talk) 19:00, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- I might strike "in their drive to acquiesce to outside religious beliefs". While I agree that is what motivated the start of this mess, it takes two (or many) sides to drive an argument to this length. Resolute 01:13, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- This is true, but so what? No-one denies that there is more than one faction of editors involved in the current dispute. --FormerIP (talk) 02:53, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- I might strike "in their drive to acquiesce to outside religious beliefs". While I agree that is what motivated the start of this mess, it takes two (or many) sides to drive an argument to this length. Resolute 01:13, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- Obviously, I might be considered biased, but I agree. While it takes two to tango, the lengthy defense would not have been necessary were it not for a sustained attack on encylopedic principles by Ludwigs2, Hans Adler, and Jayen466.—Kww(talk) 16:39, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Offense isn't enough
2) Wikipedia editors can never be allowed to purposefully add text or images or other media to an article with an express purpose to offend a race, religion, creed or sexual orientation. However, such material should not be removed from an article for the sole reason that it offends someone. When in doubt, assume that an editor who supports an inclusion or opposes a removal is doing so with the goal of bettering the project.
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- Comment by parties:
- Yes, although there are also WP:Competence issues involved here. Editors may be responding in good faith to defend the project against what they perceive as an attack on free speech, while being quite unfamiliar with the subject matter. --JN466 15:48, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- Tentative oppose: While I don't necessarily object to this as an ideal, this phrasing implies a disturbing amount of mind-reading. How do we know what 'express purpose' an editor has in mind? How do we determine that offense is the 'sole reason' another editor wants it removed? On the Muhammad page there are numerous accusations about what other editors are thinking tossed around (you'll find several examples in evidence of editors asserting that I am solely motivated by offense, for instance, despite the fact I disagree), and they got in the way more than anything else.
- Let's take a (hopefully) credible example: Someone decides to add an image of a Jim Crow era lynching to the Martin Luther King, Jr. article; someone else objects, saying that image is inappropriate for that article. Editor 1 asserts that Editor 2 is solely worried about offense; Editor 2 asserts that Editor 1 is (consciously or unconsciously) motivated by racism; grumbling ensues. How will this principle help us resolve that quandary? I don't see any way that it can. --Ludwigs2 04:50, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- Support, and also agree with Jayen466's caveat. --Elonka 23:08, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- Support, and have to respond to Jayen466's caveat as being a complete and absolute red herring. None of the images that he is objecting to were created or inserted with the sole reason of causing offense.—Kww(talk) 03:32, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Proposed remedies
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Proposed enforcement
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2) {text of proposed enforcement}
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Proposals by Resolute
Proposed principles
Wikipedia contains material that some may consider offensive
1) Wikipedia covers a wide array of topics, some of which will be sensitive topics to readers on the basis of religion, cultural belief, age-appropriateness or nationalism (among others). Such material is provided for informative purposes and is necessary to maintain a neutral point of view.
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Wikipedia is not censored
2) (Lets address the elephant in the room) I'll simply quote the policy: "Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive, even exceedingly so (see Wikipedia:Content disclaimer). Wikipedia cannot guarantee that articles or images will always be acceptable to all readers, or that they will adhere to general social or religious norms."
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- Bluntly, the central argument to the desire to remove images is that some Muslims find their existence objectionable. Related to Tarc's suggested principle: That something is offensive to someone is not by itself a valid argument in for removal. Resolute 01:04, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
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Proposed findings of fact
Consensus exists that Muhammad should include depictions
1) An overwhelming majority of editors involved in the debates have agreed that images belong on the article, even if they disagree on the number, placement and specific image use.
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- Agreed. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:27, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- agreed. Johnbod (talk) 23:40, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
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- Agreed. --Elonka 23:09, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
The number and placement of depictions at Muhammad already reflects a compromise position
2) The article has, over time and organically, achieved a state that sets it apart from the typical historical biography by: (1) Limiting depictions to a small minority percentage of the overall total images. (2) Using artistic calligraphy as the infobox lead image rather than a depiction (3) placing the majority of such depictions in the bottom half of the article, "below the fold". (4) Allowing for logged in editors to remove the images for their own account (Answer 3 of FAQ)
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- As per my evidence this simply isn't true.
- Additionally while there isn't anything else we can really do, asking users to customise their CSS is hardly an acceptable workaround thats worthy of praise. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:27, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- Never mind that some don't even want to include the link to how to do that in the offensive images guideline. Nor a link to the wmf proposed filter stuff. [13] ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 17:32, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- I've reverted that. That's not good. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:37, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, your evidence only shows that the number and type of depictions has undergone small adjustments over time. Your evidence does not refute a single one of my claims here. Resolute 18:00, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- If there has been no significant change in the number of images, or the number of images has increased in ratio to the amount of text as the data shows, then there has been no compromise with regards to the number and placement of images. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:11, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- You are not paying attention to what I am writing. I said that the article is in a state that sets it apart from the typical historical biography. Not that it is in a compromise state from how the article looked at some arbitrary point in history. Which, of course, leads me to your second error: You (Jayen, Ludwigs, etc.) seem to be of the opinion that the extremes of this debate are zero depictions and the current number. That is completely incorrect. The extremes are zero depictions and every image being a depiction. The current arrangement falls closer to the minimum extreme than it does the maximum. Resolute 23:05, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- Taking a look at some historical biographies that are a featured articles. On William Shakespeare there are 13 images, 4 of which are depictions. On Joan of Arc there are 18 images of which 10 are depictions. On Guy Fawkes there are 3 depictions out of 6 images. Muhammad does have 6 depictions out of 21 images - which is roughly in line with Shakespeare, but I admit at the lower end of the three featured articles I listed. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 10:47, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- How about Leonardo da Vinci (a GA)? If I've counted correctly, 2 out of 28 images are figurative representations of da Vinci himself; 26 are not. It's normal and appropriate for people who lived centuries ago, but left an influential legacy that has changed the world, and is remembered by millions (or billions) to this day. --JN466 11:28, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- Further such examples are here. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 11:45, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- There are actually 25 images presently on Muhammad. You can't just pretend the images attached to the templates placed throughout the article don't exist. Consequently, the number of depictions is actually below what you assess to be a typical range. I think you have actually reinforced my point. Especially given the other compromises that obviously exist at present. Resolute 20:04, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- Further such examples are here. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 11:45, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- How about Leonardo da Vinci (a GA)? If I've counted correctly, 2 out of 28 images are figurative representations of da Vinci himself; 26 are not. It's normal and appropriate for people who lived centuries ago, but left an influential legacy that has changed the world, and is remembered by millions (or billions) to this day. --JN466 11:28, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- Taking a look at some historical biographies that are a featured articles. On William Shakespeare there are 13 images, 4 of which are depictions. On Joan of Arc there are 18 images of which 10 are depictions. On Guy Fawkes there are 3 depictions out of 6 images. Muhammad does have 6 depictions out of 21 images - which is roughly in line with Shakespeare, but I admit at the lower end of the three featured articles I listed. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 10:47, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- You are not paying attention to what I am writing. I said that the article is in a state that sets it apart from the typical historical biography. Not that it is in a compromise state from how the article looked at some arbitrary point in history. Which, of course, leads me to your second error: You (Jayen, Ludwigs, etc.) seem to be of the opinion that the extremes of this debate are zero depictions and the current number. That is completely incorrect. The extremes are zero depictions and every image being a depiction. The current arrangement falls closer to the minimum extreme than it does the maximum. Resolute 23:05, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- If there has been no significant change in the number of images, or the number of images has increased in ratio to the amount of text as the data shows, then there has been no compromise with regards to the number and placement of images. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:11, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- Never mind that some don't even want to include the link to how to do that in the offensive images guideline. Nor a link to the wmf proposed filter stuff. [13] ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 17:32, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Eraser, your evidence isn't really evidence, it is just you applying your own interpretation to your own data. There has no compromise to simply "reduce the number of images", that would be a flawed and ass-backwards way to approach the matter. What the past compromise was about was identifying what images were relevant and helpful to the article and what we not, without preconceived notions of "more is better" or "less is better", in addition to the points made about moving some images to the end of the article. Tarc (talk) 17:58, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- Not really. Resolute is stating that the "number and placement" of images already reflects a compromise position. Unless you dispute my statistical data and basic analysis the data shows that that claim is demonstrably false. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:02, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- See, this is the heart of the problem; you are presupposing that a "compromise" MUST end in a reduction of images. That is not the case at all. There were solutions agreed to OTHER than deletion, such as relocation or making clear what the process was for readers to turn image displays off for themselves. Tarc (talk) 18:18, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- If you look at the diffs there is no evidence that serious quantities of relocation have occurred.
- It is true that a serious alternative to reducing the number of images would be to include a disclaimer and/or a button to hide the images, but neither of those have been enacted. I don't think you can argue in good faith that hacking the css is an acceptable user action as a compromise. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:25, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- See, this is the heart of the problem; you are presupposing that a "compromise" MUST end in a reduction of images. That is not the case at all. There were solutions agreed to OTHER than deletion, such as relocation or making clear what the process was for readers to turn image displays off for themselves. Tarc (talk) 18:18, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- Agree with the proposition - my analysis at AGD's 1st question clearly shows this, and Eraserhead's figures are beside the point as there was already an abnormally low proportion of images showing the subject of the biography at the date he starts. In addition he ignores the placement of the images. For a long time one of the "portrait" images was the first image seen from the top of the article, immediately below the templates; now all are well "below the fold" (the first comes at the bottom of screen 5 on my machine) and most very low down a pretty lengthy article. Johnbod (talk) 23:10, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- Care to present a diff for that? Currently it looks like the first unveiled depiction is much higher up the article than they were when it got GA status (see my evidence for diffs). -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 13:45, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- Absolutely not! The diff you evidence gives for the "GA version" is this one, July 5 2008, where the first image is much higher up than present, on the 3rd screen, just below the TOC & the huge templates, as opposed to the 5th screen now. It remained in this position until some point in 2011 - see your December 31 2010 diff, where it is in the same position. I'm not going to hunt through for the exact stop & start diffs. Johnbod (talk) 02:47, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- The first unveiled depiction is over half way down the article in the GA version. The first depiction may have been higher in the GA version, but I don't think anyone has an objections to those beyond including too many of them being WP:UNDUE. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:27, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
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- That a compromise has been made is evident relative to similar articles on the English Wikipedia. Now if you take the Arabic Wikipedia as a standard of compromise, then indeed you can dispute this claim. But they don't have images of people in the articles for man or woman, and I can only hope the English Wikipedia is not aspiring to that kind of compromise. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 05:23, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Editors have engaged in battleground behaviour
3) Editors have attempted to polarize the debate into an ideological and religious battle, resorted to incivility and personal attacks and have shown a disinclination to acting in a collaborative nature, frustrating the community's ability to resolve this debate.
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- Agreed, as per my evidence. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:28, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- I don't especially agree with this. There are strongly defined views, so some friction has been inevitable. Some drive-by editors over the years have been very incivil and POV on both sides, but the filibstering of recent months has pretty much drowned them out. It's a pity Eraserhead's "evidence" doesn't include some of his own edits, like this one. The debate has also been hampered by a number of editors who feel the need to respond to everything everybody else says, even when they have nothing to say. Johnbod (talk) 23:17, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't think that's anywhere near as bad as most of the edits in my evidence. That said if you wish to present that edit to the committee in your evidence by all means. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 10:48, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
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Ludwigs2 has resorted to tendentious editing
4) Ludwigs2 has violated WP:NPA, WP:IDHT, WP:BATTLE, even in this very ArbCom case request.
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- As per my evidence he's not the only guilty party. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:28, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed, but in my view, he is the source of the issue. Ludwigs is not the only editor I expect to be admonished out of this. Resolute 18:07, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- Fair enough. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:18, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed, but in my view, he is the source of the issue. Ludwigs is not the only editor I expect to be admonished out of this. Resolute 18:07, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- As per my evidence he's not the only guilty party. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:28, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
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Proposed remedies
Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.
Ludwigs2 is topic banned
1) Ludwigs2 is topic banned from the area of Muhammad images, broadly construed, for a period of one year.
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- Insufficient to prevent further wiki-wide disruption from him. Ludwigs2 makes uniformed comments just about everything and stumbles into countless disputes, especially involving images. Talk:Pregnancy and Talk:Cat are further examples of this. He was already banned for his behavior from Astrology, but only because WP:AE doesn't allow those involved on his side to vote in his defense. Is he going to be serially topic banned from every article he disrupts? I think he had enough chances. Site-wide ban seem the most appropriate outcome for him. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 22:04, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- If we mention the pregnancy case, then I think it's worth bearing in mind that Ludwigs2's view was the one the community eventually, after a long and painful process, came round to adopting. --JN466 04:45, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- You can mention it if you like, but just as good content contribution doesn't negate disruptive behavior (e.g. Betacommand, ScienceApologist), being agreed with in the end doesn't excuse the rocky road of how Ludwigs arrived there. One could argue that the "long and painful process" would have likely been shorter and less painful if he hadn't been a party. Just as productive discussions on the Muhammad images occurred during his absences. Tarc (talk) 16:02, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- If we mention the pregnancy case, then I think it's worth bearing in mind that Ludwigs2's view was the one the community eventually, after a long and painful process, came round to adopting. --JN466 04:45, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- Insufficient to prevent further wiki-wide disruption from him. Ludwigs2 makes uniformed comments just about everything and stumbles into countless disputes, especially involving images. Talk:Pregnancy and Talk:Cat are further examples of this. He was already banned for his behavior from Astrology, but only because WP:AE doesn't allow those involved on his side to vote in his defense. Is he going to be serially topic banned from every article he disrupts? I think he had enough chances. Site-wide ban seem the most appropriate outcome for him. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 22:04, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
- Agree with ASCIIn2Bme. Ludwigs2's battleground approach is not limited to this topic. The fact that out of a number of editors that share his view he is singled out as disruptive speaks volumes. - BorisG (talk) 00:38, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
Ludwigs2 is placed on probation
2) Once his topic ban expires, he is placed on indefinite probation, during which he may be blocked without warning by an uninvolved administrator if he resumes a battleground mentality on the topic of Muhammad images, broadly construed.
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- I include this because Ludwigs has a history of "testing the waters" periodically and has shown he will not drop the stick: [14]. In my view, a one-year topic ban will only mean he comes back in 366 days to resume his crusade. That would not be problematic in and of itself, but there is no reason why anyone should have to deal with the monstrous waste of time his battleground mentality has resulted in yet another time. Resolute 00:33, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
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Proposals by Elonka
Proposed principles
Purpose of Wikipedia
1) The purpose of Wikipedia is to create a high-quality, free-content encyclopedia in an atmosphere of camaraderie and mutual respect among contributors.
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- Proposed. Hopefully this is one that everyone can agree on? --Elonka 19:25, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia is a collaborative project
2) Wikipedia is a collaborative project, and it is essential that all editors work towards compromise and a neutral point of view in a good-faith fashion.
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- Proposed. Hopefully this is another that all can agree on? --Elonka 19:25, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Proposed findings of fact
WMF Resolution on controversial content
1) The Arbitration Committee acknowledges that the Wikimedia Foundation in 2010 commissioned a study on controversial content, and in May 2011 passed a Resolution concerning controversial content.
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- Agreed. --JN466 04:39, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed, and the current position reflects this, and would reflect it better if image preferences were available. The key part of the resolution otherwise is:"We urge the community to pay particular attention to curating all kinds of potentially controversial content, including determining whether it has a realistic educational use and applying the principle of least astonishment in categorization and placement." Categorization is not relevant here, but, as mentioned above, the placement of images depicting Muhammad has changed, and you now have to go down five screens (on my machine) before encountering one. The "educational" issue has been opened above, and will be divisive, and no doubt discussed much more. Johnbod (talk) 05:47, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- Image preferences would be nice as something beyond WP:NPOV. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 13:31, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed. --JN466 04:39, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
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- This acknowledgement should be included as a part of any case, and the arbitrators should be mindful of the WMF's studies and statements on this topic. --Elonka 03:38, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- The resolution mandates that a personal image filter be developed. ArbCom can't do anything about that since they have no control over what software runs on this site. That's entirely within WMF's powers. And we all know how well that the development of that image filter went. [15] So, if you're going to have a FoF on this, it better be up-to-date. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 20:41, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
- ASCII, I don't think the issue is as simple as that. If you read the WMF's report, it is clear the purpose of the study is to inform the communities how Wikimedia should treat controversial content (including images). The recommendations of the report was to develop software that made it easier for a reader to opt out of controversial content, but I don't think the software is being forced upon us or any other project - and the English Wikipedia could conceivably 'opt out' of the image hiding filter.
Elonka, I agree that the final decision should acknowledge the WMF report and resolution, which was an important development, and concede that work in this area is ongoing. However, the image filter has relatively little to do with this dispute. If we had the filter at our disposal today, we would still be required to make an editorial judgement about the use of controversial images at Muhammad. The purpose of the filter is not to make it easier to include images that some readers may find offensive (with the thinking that they could simply hide the images if that is their preference), but to improve the reader's ability to cope with articles where our judgement about image balance did not accord with the reader's own views. AGK [•] 16:33, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- AGK, I said nothing about the filter. I believe your response is intended for ASCII, not me. --Elonka 18:06, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- AGK, the Harris & Harris report said that the personal image filter is the only realistic solution for dealing with offense caused by "sacred" stuff like the images of Muhammad. [16] The report did not recommend any editorial changes in that respect. The WMF board then made a broad and vague statement about "pay[ing] particular attention to curating all kinds of potentially controversial content", which turned into mana for the tendentious editors in the religious imagery area. It would be helpful if ArbCom were more discerning in their reading the Harris & Harris report than the WMF board was. See also my proposal for distinguishing between two broad classed of controversial content, which is similar to what the Harris & Harris report proposed in that respect. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 18:34, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- AGK, I said nothing about the filter. I believe your response is intended for ASCII, not me. --Elonka 18:06, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- ASCII, I don't think the issue is as simple as that. If you read the WMF's report, it is clear the purpose of the study is to inform the communities how Wikimedia should treat controversial content (including images). The recommendations of the report was to develop software that made it easier for a reader to opt out of controversial content, but I don't think the software is being forced upon us or any other project - and the English Wikipedia could conceivably 'opt out' of the image hiding filter.
Proposals by User:ASCIIn2Bme
Proposed principles
Limitations of NPOV with respect to images
1) By their very nature, images are always presented "in Wikipedia's voice" (even if their captions might not be). The method of creating a NPOV article by wrapping attribution around conflicting POV statements is not applicable to images. Therefore, when sources disagree about the suitability of an image in a given context, it's impossible for Wikipedia not take sides (if it has an article on that topic). There is no visual construction equivalent to saying "source A says this image is suitable here, but source B says it's not." The image is either included in the article or it isn't. The placement and sizing of an image may mitigate this fundamental limitation to a certain extent, but cannot overcome it completely.
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- Proposed as self-evident, but I have the impression that some participants here believe this myth that "true NPOV if we only followed sources" is somehow possible with respect to images. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 05:35, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Sources do not dictate every aspect of Wikipedia articles
2) Customs, mores and conventions used by an article's sources may not override all Wikipedia presentation standards. Attempting to follow all customs or requirements that sources explicitly or implicitly follow (in the name of NPOV) can have absurd effects, including overriding NPOV itself or violating other fundamental pillars like the purpose of Wikipedia, as illustrated in the following (amusing) example:
- FSG is something very cool, and so it has a lot of fans/worshipers. All materials produced by these sources are only audio or audio-visual recording. Listening to one of these recording reveals why that is so. There is an explicitly stated rule followed by all fans of FSG that you're not allowed to write anything about FSG, you may only speak of it and record yourself if you want. There are very few outside sources that wrote about FSG. (But it's still wp:notable, for instance FSG has been covered on TV.) May Wikipedia have a typical, text-centric article about FSG without violating NPOV? Not if you think that NPOV implies that the majority of sources decides the Wikipedia document structure/format.
Some more serious examples:
- Most math sources have proofs. Wikipedia math articles usually don't have any. Does that make them fail NPOV?
- Most non-science works don't have an abstract. Does that make LEADs, by their very existence, fail NPOV in many Wikipedia articles?
- Most science papers do have a conclusion section, and many science books have end-of-chapter summaries. Does lack of conclusion sections in Wikipedia's science articles make them fail NPOV?
- While certain type of material like ship or gun data can be found in tabular form in sources, please show me some biographical dictionary that has the elaborate infoboxes we have for persons. E.g., pick the article of some U.S. president. (And even if you manage one such source, it's the majority of them that matter at the NPOV count.) If Wikipedia's biographies fail NPOV that way, those for living persons automatically fail BLP too, don't they?
- All the little rules at WP:MOS may or may not be followed by the majority of sources for any given Wikipedia article. Per-article MOS is needed (with a rigorous survey) or NPOV is being ignored? One very applicable issue here is that most sources about Islam have phraseology like those enumerated in WP:PBUH, while Wikipedia explicitly disallows that. WP:PBUH = NPOV fail because it gives the reader the overwhelming impression that [most] texts about Islam don't have any of that?
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- Fun exercise, isn't it? Just follow the structure/conventions/mandates of the sources?! ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 06:43, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, added more serious examples. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 19:39, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Censorship vs. gratuitous offense
3) Wikipedia has a default policy that its articles are not WP:NOTCENSORED. Wikipedia also has a guideline for dealing with material that some people may find offensive. In particular, since October 2011, this guideline recommends avoiding WP:GRATUITOUS offense. ("Wikipedia is not censored, but Wikipedia also does not seek to needlessly offend its readers.")
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- Might work as a FoF as well, but ArbCom may wish to reaffirm it. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 20:08, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Two broad classes of offensive material
4) Although some type of visual material may elicit disgust in humans in near universal fashion, other material is only offensive for those adhering to certain socially constructed rules, shared only by a subgroup of humans. (This distinction was made in the Harris & Harris report as well. [17])
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- This probably skirting the nature/nurture debate, but I think it's important to make this distinction. In the case at hand here, it's pretty easy to decide that offense is clearly caused by cultural/educational differences, and it's not remotely close to a biology-related response. Show the images in question to a hypothetical random person that has not heard of Islam, and you almost certainly won't cause him to puke or get sexually aroused/distracted. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 20:53, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia's core principles may be culturally offensive to some people
5) Not all humans share the principles on which Wikipedia is founded, for instance the implied plurality of views from NPOV. Such people may simply declare offense at the very notion of not being able to impose their perspective at the expense of all others.
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- As shocking as this may sound, Wikipedia is not neutral about everything. There are some values that Wikipedia itself stands for. We've seen that in the Italian censorship law proposal, when the WMF backed up the protest. See Italian Wikipedia for details and references. So, no, Wikipedia can't always be the cute, gentle, roll-over puppy that some think it should always be. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 22:55, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles aim for a unified presentation style, which includes images
6) Wikipedia articles as a whole aim towards a cohesive user experience, for example by having a unified core manual of style. This style includes various considerations for use of images, which are often favored, e.g. "Because the Wikipedia project is in a position to offer multimedia learning to its audience, images are an important part of any article's presentation." and "It is very common to use an appropriate representative image for the lead of an article, often as part of an infobox."
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- I know that multiple community-sanctioned choices exist in certain areas, e.g. WP:CITEVAR, but it's not terribly important to mention that here. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 21:16, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- Tweaked. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 06:42, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
The typical article style of a given Wikipedia may be culturally offensive to some people
7) Because many editorial decision are taken by WP:CONSENSUS, it's impossible for a Wikipedia article to be entirely independent of the cultural values of its editors. For example, the Arabic Wikipedia articles on man [18] and woman [19] do not include any pictures of humans or even anthropomorphic drawings thereof, something that editors from other cultures may find shocking in terms of material included or excluded.
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- I guess pictures of people are generally of "limited value" in the ar.wiki culture. I for one find their articles of limited value in part because of that. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 23:30, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Proposed findings of fact
Locus and nature of the dispute
1) A dispute exists between:
- editors who primarily desire to illustrate the article on Muhammad with images comparable to those found in any other Wikipedia article on historical figures, for example historical drawings or paintings commemorating significant events involving said figure, and
- editors who consider that one or both of the following special concerns are of greater significance than the one described above:
- a desire to avoid upsetting readers who may choose to take offense at images contravening the customs in some parts of the Islamic world, namely the prohibition against anthropomorphic representations of Muhammad, and/or
- a desire to use the structure of the Wikipedia article on Muhammad to covey the message that anthropomorphic depictions of Muhammad are rare in the contemporary Islamic world.
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- It think this sums it up. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 07:10, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Cultural differences and WMF resolution
2) It is not inconceivable that different groups of editors, residing in different parts of the world may place different weights on the concerns above. For example, the ar.wiki article doesn't include anthropomorphic depictions of Muhammad, but the fa.wiki does include them, even though the corresponding article has FA status on both of these wikis. Mindful of issue like the above and with the stated intent of giving the readers the ultimate choice with respect to images displayed in an article, the WMF board has decided to implement a personal image filter, which is still in the design stage [according to CEO's statement from November].
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- The expectation that editors can just apply some NPOV-type, "just count the sources" algorithm here and they'd all agree is clearly contradicted by empirical data. And the WMF knows that the reader offense issue isn't entirely tractable at the editorial level. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 07:48, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Images in articles about persons
3) Wikipedia articles about persons commonly include anthropomorphic depictions thereof. In the case of historical figures who lived before the invention of photography, artistic representations are often used.
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- Agreed. Johnbod (talk) 18:57, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed, see table 2 of my evidence. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:24, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
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- Whether some people like it or not, Wikipedia has this de facto cultural/stylistic standard. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 21:36, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Nature of images in dispute
4) With exception of one Russian painting, the other images in the present dispute come from a past Islamic culture (Ilkhanate-Timurid). These were not created with the intent of causing offense within their culture, but are regarded as offensive in [some] other Islamic cultures.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- I am not sure the Persian miniatures from Ferdowsi's Shahnameh are regarded as "offensive in other Islamic cultures"; "some other Islamic cultures", perhaps. I would imagine that nothing at all, even wikipedia itself, is popular with the Taleban: Herat, where many of the images were first created, is in modern day Afghanistan. As far as the use of historical images of this kind is concerned, unfortunately almost no direct information is available concerning their reception in the populous Islamic countries in the Far East, e.g. there seems to be a lack so far of any academic texts on the subject from Indonesia. We know that copies of the Shahnameh are currently actively studied by academics in universities from multiple disciplines across the globe. Copies are held in major collections (Iran, Metropolitan Museum of Art, Bibliothèque Nationale de France, British Library) and the images of Muhammad have been on public display in several recent high profile exhibitions. The images themselves are part of Iranian heritage and are undoubtedly some of the finest images on wikipedia (or commons). France, where a fifteenth century illuminated manuscript of the Mir'aj has been on display, has one of the largest Muslim populations in Europe. France may have multiculturality, but it is subject to French law. These general issues, however, lie somewhat beyond what can be meaningfully discussed on wikipedia. The compromise solution takes into account the preferences of individual readers who prefer not to see images. Images are used sparingly and only where appropriate. Their educational value is undeniable. Mathsci (talk) 08:02, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- While it is true that the French may have a large muslim population they are also extremely secular. In publicly run schools you are unable to wear a cross for example. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 11:51, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- <off-topic, but seasonal>I really couldn't say. Last week my organ playing was interrupted by an unscheduled 11 o'clock pre-Christmas mass for students from the college of Sacre Coeur. I couldn't see from where I was, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the girls were wearing crucifixes. Just as I have seen burqas sported, if that is the word, on the Cours Mirabeau. C'est comme ça. (I still remember Elonka eating foie gras here: with oysters, it is de rigeur for Noël.) </off-topic, but seasonal>Mathsci (talk) 12:48, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Et joyeux Noël à tous. Mathsci (talk) 19:22, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- <off-topic, but seasonal>I really couldn't say. Last week my organ playing was interrupted by an unscheduled 11 o'clock pre-Christmas mass for students from the college of Sacre Coeur. I couldn't see from where I was, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the girls were wearing crucifixes. Just as I have seen burqas sported, if that is the word, on the Cours Mirabeau. C'est comme ça. (I still remember Elonka eating foie gras here: with oysters, it is de rigeur for Noël.) </off-topic, but seasonal>Mathsci (talk) 12:48, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- While it is true that the French may have a large muslim population they are also extremely secular. In publicly run schools you are unable to wear a cross for example. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 11:51, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Principle is good overall though. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:28, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- I am not sure the Persian miniatures from Ferdowsi's Shahnameh are regarded as "offensive in other Islamic cultures"; "some other Islamic cultures", perhaps. I would imagine that nothing at all, even wikipedia itself, is popular with the Taleban: Herat, where many of the images were first created, is in modern day Afghanistan. As far as the use of historical images of this kind is concerned, unfortunately almost no direct information is available concerning their reception in the populous Islamic countries in the Far East, e.g. there seems to be a lack so far of any academic texts on the subject from Indonesia. We know that copies of the Shahnameh are currently actively studied by academics in universities from multiple disciplines across the globe. Copies are held in major collections (Iran, Metropolitan Museum of Art, Bibliothèque Nationale de France, British Library) and the images of Muhammad have been on public display in several recent high profile exhibitions. The images themselves are part of Iranian heritage and are undoubtedly some of the finest images on wikipedia (or commons). France, where a fifteenth century illuminated manuscript of the Mir'aj has been on display, has one of the largest Muslim populations in Europe. France may have multiculturality, but it is subject to French law. These general issues, however, lie somewhat beyond what can be meaningfully discussed on wikipedia. The compromise solution takes into account the preferences of individual readers who prefer not to see images. Images are used sparingly and only where appropriate. Their educational value is undeniable. Mathsci (talk) 08:02, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- This could probably be phrased more clearly, but I think the fundamental fact here is that the images in dispute here are nothing like the goatse-designed-to-shock stuff. They are not even Everybody Draw Mohammed Day poke-your-eye-in-the-name-of-free-speech material. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 07:18, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- "Some" inserted per Mathsci's suggestion. Thanks for the in-depth comment. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 16:07, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Support, with the Mathsci qualifier (And Merry Christmas to you as well!). --Elonka 18:25, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you, same to you. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 19:09, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
WMF report on the images of "sacred" (incl. those of Muhammad)
5) The WMF-sponsored Harris & Harris report proposed that personal image filter is the only reasonable solution for readers' offense when dealing with images of the "sacred", including those of Muhammad. [20] The report also recommended that such controversial "sacred" images be displayed by default to all readers, and that only registered [logged-in] users be given the means to opt out. ("we have recommended that registration be necessary to affect these images")
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
- Added as FoF to emphasize the distinction between the actual report and the broad/vague WMF board statement. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 19:09, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Current opt-out method on English Wikipedia
6) The English Wikipedia offers a method for logged-in users to opt from seeing images in the Muhammad article. Talk:Muhammad/FAQ Q/A #3.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Certainly that its technically clumsy should be mentioned. But otherwise, why not - as long as its not just content. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:06, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- May wanna add something that it's technically clumsy, but otherwise is in line with the Harris & Harris report. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 19:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Assumptions of bad faith
7) Some editors advocating for the removal of images assert that they are present mainly to humiliate Muslims (e.g. Hans Adler) or because of the Islamophobia of the editors wishing to retain the images (e.g. Ludwigs2). ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 07:37, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
Proposals by User:Ludwigs2
Proposed principles
Scope of NOTCENSORED clarified
1) a) NOTCENSORED is intended to protect the encyclopedia from the loss of informative content. It is not a guarantee of free speech for Wikipedia editors, nor does it protect all controversial content in a blindly mechanical or compulsory fashion.
1) b) NOTCENSORED should never be used to enforce editorial preferences. NOTCENSORED is a 'principle of last resort', invoked by the community as a whole when normal content discussion processes fail and a clear and obvious threat of censorship exists.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Not sure about 1b, about NOTCENSORED being "invoked by the community as a whole when normal content discussion processes fail"; what do you mean? 1a has merit. It's not enough to check whether material is offensive, and, if the answer is affirmative, thereby automatically to conclude that we must keep it. We also need to check that the material is WP:DUE. --JN466 17:15, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- 1b is intended to make it clear that 'censorship' is not something one or two (or three) editors can assert as a lever in what would otherwise be a simple content dispute, but that there has to be some credible issue of censorship present. The aim is to prevent editors from putting controversial material into an article and then spinning out more-or-less paranoid fabrications of censorship to justify keeping their preferred version. I'm specifically thinking about argumentation I've seen on both the Pregnancy and Muhammad (and other) pages: people opposing removal because THEY are out there, and THEY will see that act as an opening to ravage other pages across the encyclopedia. 1b asks that there be some community discussion first about whether THEY actually exist as a concrete threat to the project, and that it be shown that there are reasonable grounds to suspect that the specific removal in question is actually THEIR work.
- Not sure about 1b, about NOTCENSORED being "invoked by the community as a whole when normal content discussion processes fail"; what do you mean? 1a has merit. It's not enough to check whether material is offensive, and, if the answer is affirmative, thereby automatically to conclude that we must keep it. We also need to check that the material is WP:DUE. --JN466 17:15, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- Both the Muhammad and Pregnancy issue should have been simple matters of editors discussing non-critical image choice, but in both cases a group of editors asserted that fanaticism (of Muslims and Prudes, respectively) was a clear and present threat to the integrity of the project - with no real evidence or logic to back it up - and used that assertion and to gum up discussion with hyperbolic examples and rampant fear-mongering. When someone starts from the POV that THEY are out there, waiting, conversation is futile and collaboration is impossible.--Ludwigs2 19:03, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- NOTCENSORED is not a "principle of last resort". It is a policy on English Wikipedia. --FormerIP (talk) 18:39, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- I think this in general seems sensible. Both pregnancy and this case should have been resolvable with significantly less effort. 1b) probably violates WP:POLICY though. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:11, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Your giant two-month RFC at WT:NOT failed to achieve the changes you wanted, Ludwigs. ArbCom is not a vehicle which you can use to drive policy change by fiat against community consensus. Resolute 21:10, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- If you're on PolicyCom, stand up and say "urrr"! ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 06:50, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Controversial material should be used judiciously
2) Controversial material must be used judiciously and circumspectly, taking into account both the needs of the encyclopedia and the preferences and standards of the readership as a whole. Injudicious use of controversial material draws Wikipedia into real world conflicts and damages its reputation as an independent, neutral source of information.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- The problem is drawing a line at just where "controversial" ends and "censorship" begins. Tarc (talk) 01:16, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed. On a scale ranging from "cautious" to "reckless", Wikimedia has generally been firmly at the "reckless" end of the spectrum, compared to reliable sources. The board resolution, intended as a corrective for a known issue, reflects that, just as the earlier BLP resolution addressed a known problem. .--JN466 01:32, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think this proposal means very much unless the word "injudicious" is clearly defined. --FormerIP (talk) 18:37, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:12, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- Agreed. --Elonka 00:56, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia as a Kinder, Gentler project
2) Where an article can be constructed in a way that avoids offense to a given segment of our readership without sacrificing the integrity of the encyclopedia, it should be so constructed. Pursuant to the recognition of multiplicity (below), we include offensive material in the encyclopedia at need, but not as a matter of casual disregard for the preferences of segments of our readership.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- That's the Christmas spirit. :) The exercise of "kindness and gentleness" is an area where Wikipedia has room for improvement. The content point is somewhat related to WP:GRATUITOUS, as well as the board resolution on controversial content. --JN466 17:07, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- "At need" is an unnecessarily high threshold. Editors include material, in the general sense, in an article when they feel it will make the article better. Everything after that is gravy. Tarc (talk) 00:59, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Well, we can lower the threshold some, if you care to make suggestions. The point is that there must be some threshold. Remember, there are plenty of people out there who think that any article can be improved by adding a picture of a penis. what threshold would you like to set? --Ludwigs2 01:56, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- I think we already have policies and practices that deal adequately with the random placement of pictures of penises. --FormerIP (talk) 18:32, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Such as? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:07, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Such as WP:PERTINENCE. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 21:50, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Click on "random article" at the top left of this page, add a picture of a penis to the article you arrive at and see what happens. --FormerIP (talk) 20:31, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- And which policy/guideline are they going to remove the picture of a penis under? Or is it going to be under the principle of WP:DICK? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:31, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Could be. That or WP:COCK. They'll probably tell you which policy they are using, though. --FormerIP (talk) 21:34, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- And which policy/guideline are they going to remove the picture of a penis under? Or is it going to be under the principle of WP:DICK? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:31, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Such as? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:07, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- "At need" is an unnecessarily high threshold. Editors include material, in the general sense, in an article when they feel it will make the article better. Everything after that is gravy. Tarc (talk) 00:59, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
I think I misread your point, you're right that it would be removed under normal practices - thinking some more a policy would probably only be useful for hard cases so meh. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:40, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
Proposed findings of fact
Muhammad images of limited value
1) The figurative images of Muhammad are of limited value to the article, neither representing the topic accurately nor filling any clear or obvious purpose for the article. They are not overtly inappropriate, but primarily serve decorative or illustrative roles that are of little consequence to the subject matter of the article.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- The Committee does not have the necessary expertise to determine the historical and artistic value of a given image. Kirill [talk] [prof] 20:27, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- I cannot state enough how odious this proposition is, and how much it runs against both the spirit and the letter of the project's core policies. Tarc (talk) 01:14, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- It would be helpful if you stated it just a little bit, because what you just said makes no sense to me. Why is it odious? How does it run against the spirit and letter of policy? Please explain. --Ludwigs2 01:51, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Disagree in the strongest possible terms. Visual depictions of the subject is always of good value to an article. Beyond that, this is yet another card you've played over and over and over without ever coming close to achieving anything resembling consensus support. You are just hoping to use ArbCom to defeat the community. Resolute 21:13, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- I cannot state enough how odious this proposition is, and how much it runs against both the spirit and the letter of the project's core policies. Tarc (talk) 01:14, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- ContentCom too? I can only imagine the headlines: Wikisupremes rule that Persian Miniatures have "limited value" thus need be removed. Subhead: They didn't rule how valuable Wikipe-tan is. Presumably more so, because it's still there! ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 11:36, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- To my knowledge, none of the parties here are saying that the images should be removed entirely from the project. The dispute is as to which images, and how many images, should be used in which article (specifically the article Muhammad). I think everyone is in agreement that the images can be used elsewhere on the project, such as at Depictions of Muhammad, and other appropriate articles. --Elonka 15:28, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- This is true of the vast majority of images on Wikipedia. There's no reason to hold these images to a higher standard.—Kww(talk) 16:42, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- ContentCom too? I can only imagine the headlines: Wikisupremes rule that Persian Miniatures have "limited value" thus need be removed. Subhead: They didn't rule how valuable Wikipe-tan is. Presumably more so, because it's still there! ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 11:36, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Recognition of multiplicity
2) Wikipedia is an encyclopedia intended for the use of a multicultural, multi-faith, multi-ethnic, and otherwise broadly diverse readership.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- The Wikipedia as a general project, yes. But we're on the English Wiki here, and while we do attract a global audience, let's not get all hoppy on political correctness and pretend that we're a happy, everyone-gets-a-share melting pot. 2/3rds of the contributions come from the US, UK, and Canada. This is the Western world's encyclopedia, and the West has a standard of religious freedom that is found lacking in other parts of the world, particularly in the Middle East. We have no obligation or expectation to make our content cozy for those who are, for all intents and purposes, outside of the project's purview. Tarc (talk) 01:13, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Tarc, that's the point to be cleared up, isn't it? If in fact Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that is intentionally written from a particular worldview, where all other cultural perspectives are obliged (so to speak) to sit in the back of the bus, we need to spell that out explicitly so that people (like myself) who prefer universalism are no longer confused on the issue. I'll be curious to see how we rationalize that in terms of NPOV; seems to me we'd need doublethink to manage it (War is Peace, Ignorance is Strength, Bias is Neutrality...). well, we'll see… --Ludwigs2 01:48, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Did you ever see that episode of South Park where they kept removing item after item from the Christmas play that anyone found offensive, til the end result was the kids dancing in a silent, Phillip Glass-like minimalist performance? I don't want the project to be that, something where all the sharp edges are shaved down into non-threatening nubs. Tarc (talk) 02:57, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- How dare you mention South Park on this page?! Don't you know how offensive they are?! [21] ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 03:33, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Tarc, that's not a realistic concern. The project is bound by its need to be complete and accurate, so it can never be whitewashed down to Glass-like minimalism. Besides, you seem to be confusing 'political correctness' and 'respect for difference'. PC is whitewashing, in which controversial material is simply avoided; respect for difference means exactly what it says, that we respect different worldviews and handle controversial material judiciously. What's wrong with being respectful and judicious? --Ludwigs2 03:38, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- How dare you mention South Park on this page?! Don't you know how offensive they are?! [21] ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 03:33, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Did you ever see that episode of South Park where they kept removing item after item from the Christmas play that anyone found offensive, til the end result was the kids dancing in a silent, Phillip Glass-like minimalist performance? I don't want the project to be that, something where all the sharp edges are shaved down into non-threatening nubs. Tarc (talk) 02:57, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Tarc, that's the point to be cleared up, isn't it? If in fact Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that is intentionally written from a particular worldview, where all other cultural perspectives are obliged (so to speak) to sit in the back of the bus, we need to spell that out explicitly so that people (like myself) who prefer universalism are no longer confused on the issue. I'll be curious to see how we rationalize that in terms of NPOV; seems to me we'd need doublethink to manage it (War is Peace, Ignorance is Strength, Bias is Neutrality...). well, we'll see… --Ludwigs2 01:48, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- The Wikipedia as a general project, yes. But we're on the English Wiki here, and while we do attract a global audience, let's not get all hoppy on political correctness and pretend that we're a happy, everyone-gets-a-share melting pot. 2/3rds of the contributions come from the US, UK, and Canada. This is the Western world's encyclopedia, and the West has a standard of religious freedom that is found lacking in other parts of the world, particularly in the Middle East. We have no obligation or expectation to make our content cozy for those who are, for all intents and purposes, outside of the project's purview. Tarc (talk) 01:13, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Really, not a realistic concern [22] [23]? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 04:09, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, really. What ar.wikipedia does in not our concern here. incidentally, I'm curious why I have a message on the ar.wikipedia version of my account. I've never been to that domain before. I assume it's some sort of welcome template, but I can't read a word of arabic. bizarre. --Ludwigs2 05:06, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Really, not a realistic concern [22] [23]? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 04:09, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Beg pardon? "This is the Western world's encyclopedia"? Which policy states that NPOV is determined by community demographics? --JN466 05:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Definitely worth mentioning. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:07, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- I hope that doesn't entail applying the sum of all human prejudices across all articles. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 09:16, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
- Agree with the multiplicity principle. --Elonka 00:58, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- True, but it is beholden on all individuals to recognize that when they are reading material that hasn't been specifically tailored to their culture, they will encounter things that are considered unacceptable by their culture. The responsibility resides with the reader, not the author.—Kww(talk) 16:45, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Precisely. While we can recognize that Wikipedia is viewed by people of many cultures, we cannot allow ourselves to be beholden to them. Something the WP:Content disclaimer itself alludes to. Resolute 21:16, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
'Offense' clarified
3) The term 'offense' has dual meanings which should not be confused or conflated in the application of NOTCENSORED:
- A violation of the rules, laws, standards, codes of conduct, or other well-defined and strongly established principles of a culture or group.
- The feeling of displeasure an individual feels when confronted with something perceived to be insulting or disrespectful.
Causing offense in the second sense is rarely (if ever) a concern for the encyclopedia; Causing offense in the first sense can make the encyclopedia look bigoted.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Proposed, though I may need to reword it later when I'm feeling less offended(2). --Ludwigs2 13:56, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose'. This is basically a proposal for a policy change whereby NOTCENSORED would cease to apply where religious or social morality is a factor. --FormerIP (talk) 18:25, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose as well. In fact, this proposal would be colossally damaging to the project. Resolute 21:18, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- I think I have to oppose. How small a group would you accept? I'm more dubious about Kww's point about religions, but the main reason for that is that the number of mainstream religious beliefs isn't particularly large. The number of groups of people is definitely breathtakingly large. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:45, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. No one has a right to be unoffended. Tarc (talk) 21:46, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- Oppose. This simply tries to elevate religious perspectives by assigning them the status of being a principle of a culture or group.—Kww(talk) 16:49, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- This is a tremendously misguided proposal. The Harris & Harris WMF-sponsored report in fact arrived at the opposite conclusion with respect to offenses over "sacred" images. [24] ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 21:42, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Proposals by User:Kww
Proposed principles
Religions are not popularity contests
1) Religious perspectives cannot be evaluated by determining the number of followers. The religious beliefs of large groups, such as the Shiites, must be considered to be of equal value to the religious beliefs of smaller groups.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- I think this depends on the context we are talking about. In some cases, WP:PARITY would suggest that the number of people who subscribe to a given point-of-view is highly relevant to the amount of coverage that should be given to that view in Wikipedia. In the present context, the question is about the relevance of the views of non-Mulisms, Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslims who never got the memo about conforming to the expectations of Wikipedia editors. These are clearly not fringe views. But, as has been pointed out at various points on various grounds above, balancing different people's views makes less sense and is less do-able when we are dealing with the question of whether or not to display particular images. --FormerIP (talk) 17:27, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- This seems likely to violate WP:DUE. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:14, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Yes and no. I get what you are trying to say, but I don't quite agree with how it is said. I think this can be taken in two directions. First: that people who argue "Muslims are offended" are making two faulty assumpions: (1) that all Muslims are the same and (2) that said views have been consistent throughout history. Second: If we are going to argue that one religion's views must be explicitly honoured, then we must respect all religious views. So if we are going to censor this article to suit some Muslims, than we had better get around to deleting Xenu and replacing all uses of "God" with "G-d". Never mind the views of smaller religions. Resolute 21:24, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- Support as proposer.—Kww(talk) 17:09, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
The sum total of all religious proscriptions is breathtakingly large
2) Examining the religious beliefs of the world, one can find prohibitions against the depiction of a wide variety of subjects, ranging from dead people, to people, to women, to specific articles of clothing. Thus, it would be impossible to create a useful encyclopedia that shielded all religious beliefs from images that were offensive within the context of each faith.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Support, although I would note that the statement leaves aside the question of whether we can pick and choose. --FormerIP (talk) 17:30, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Is this really true? The number of religions with even a million followers is actually pretty small.
- With things like dead people, organisations like the British Museum have returned dead bodies to the Australian aborigines. Even though they have not returned the Elgin marbles to the Greeks. If the British Museum can tell the difference it should be possible for us to do so to some extent. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:14, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed, but I would re-word to include all content, not just images. Resolute 21:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Certainly we should do that. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:41, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- Support as proposer.—Kww(talk) 17:09, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Well said. It's even one of Wikipedia's core disclaimers, WP:Content disclaimer. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 17:15, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Equal treatment requires scrupulous ignorance
3) The only method by which all religions can be treated equally and still have a useful encyclopedia is to scrupulously ignore religious objections to material. This must be interpreted in both a positive and negative direction: while material must not be removed due to a religious principle, it equally must not be included simply in order to offend a religious principle.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
- Support as proposer.—Kww(talk) 17:09, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Strongly oppose. Ignorance is not the way to go, and is not in line with the WMF resolution. Instead, it is better to remain aware of religious customs, so as to best present information. As the WMF resolution states: "We support the principle of least astonishment: content on Wikimedia projects should be presented to readers in such a way as to respect their expectations of what any page or feature might contain." So it would be inappropriate to (for example) make the primary image on the Jesus page a picture of Christ upside down on the cross, or nailed to a Star of David, or for the Muhammad article to show an image of Muhammad being tortured,[25] because those are not typical images within those religious cultures. Within Islam, though there is some variation, the #1 way that Muhammad is represented is through words and elaborate calligraphy, not through imagery. Every major encyclopedia that I have viewed respects this practice, so it would make sense for the Wikipedia article about Muhammad to reflect that practice as well, rather than trying to force some other minority representation that does not reflect widespread usage. This doesn't mean to remove all images of Muhammad from the project -- there are still appropriate places for images of Muhammad in more detailed scholarship, and on Wikipedia, such as at Depictions of Muhammad and other articles. But on the core biography article of this particular individual, images should be used only sparingly. --Elonka 18:55, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- How can you justify doing so without doing so for all other religions, large and small?—Kww(talk) 21:01, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- How is the British Museum able to return dead remains to Tasmania without risking their entire collection? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:17, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Maybe the header should be amended to avoid the ambiguity of the word "ignorance". Obviously it is not to be recommended that WP be edited in an uninformed manner. But our coverage of any topic should be disinterested, so that we avoid knowingly presenting information in pursuance of political or religious principles. --FormerIP (talk) 21:13, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Heightened scrutiny is not acceptable
4) Proposals to examine the relevance of images more closely or more carefully because of religious offense are indirect methods of paying attention to that religious offense, and are not acceptable.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Comment by others:
- Support as proposer.—Kww(talk) 17:09, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with this, even though the WMF board decided otherwise: "We urge the community to pay particular attention to curating all kinds of potentially controversial content, including determining whether it has a realistic educational use and applying the principle of least astonishment in categorization and placement." (I've emphasized the key aspects.) No English Wikipedia policies or guidelines currently support that part of the WMF resolution in part because it's rather meaningless bureaucratese. And I suspect that if put to a broader community RfC, I think it will fail. The attempt (by Ludwigs2/JN466) to introduce that wording in WP:NOT failed. [26] This begets a more important question: is ArbCom allowed to produce a finding contrary to what the WMF decided with regard to Wikipedia's content if the Wikipedia community doesn't support that position? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 17:29, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- The key issue here is the definition of "least astonishment". The image filter implementation referendum committee, of which sitting/active arbitrator User:Risker was part, wrote a FAQ explaining their understanding of that principle: "The principle of least astonishment means that users should never be surprised by content they were not expecting to encounter on Wikimedia sites. If you click on an article about cycling, you do not expect to see images of nude cyclists. If you click on an article about locks, you do not expect to see graphic images of - for example - sexual bondage. The image hiding feature allows you to make decisions for yourself that will reduce these possibilities." (Emphsis mine) Leaving aside the first sentence, which is an absurd idealistic view that totally ignores WP:Content disclaimer, the examples do not support religious offense as a case to pay particular attention to, even though the fabled Harris & Harris "expert" report gave it as example using the Muhammad images in particular [27]. PolicyCom fail. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 17:47, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- The thing about the WMF statement is that it is limited to what it actually says. It's not "meaningless", IMO. It is simply benign, and probably intentionally so. If had been intended to say more, it would have done. I think it is fair to say that we have already met the bar of paying "particular attention" in this case. But the statement does not take away the ability of projects to reach conclusions according to their existing policies.--FormerIP (talk) 17:58, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Although I'm not particularly fond of the Harris report, it recommend that images of the "sacred" such as those of Muhammad be treated differently than naked cyclists. "That is why, we believe, potential decisions on the restrictions of these types of images must be decided by individual users and why we have recommended that registration be necessary to affect these images. A more general prohibition of them, given their nature, would seem to be moving too far, in our opinion, in the direction of general restriction of the projects. ¶ The reason we have come to that conclusion stems from our observation that pluralistic, multi-faith, and secular communities are a common feature of many societies around the world today (and the values of the international virtual community of the internet) and that in these societies, questions of the appropriateness of the display of “sacred” images, as defined by one community, are inevitably decided within the context of other communities who do not value the same images in the same way. It is about the struggle between the rights of some individuals to define the limits of appropriateness of some images for themselves and others, versus the rights of others to know, and the question of the amount and quality of respect that should be offered to each by each other." (See also my proposal for two classes of controversial content.) ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 18:06, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- The nutshell version is that the Harris & Harris report did not recommend any editorial changes in how we treat images like depictions of Muhammad, but explicitly said the personal image filter is only realistic tool to avoid offense in this case. The WMF board then made a vague and broad statement about "all kinds of potentially controversial content", and of course some editors jumped on the bandwagon an interpreted it as applying to whatever images they want to remove, including those of Muhammad. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 18:23, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Proposed findings of fact
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Ludwigs2 site banned
1) Having demonstrated that his goals are incompatible with producing an encyclopedia, Ludwigs2 is site banned.
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Hans Adler cautioned
2) Hans Adler is cautioned that fervently believing in his side of an argument is not a justification for demonizing or belittling his opponents.
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- Is there a reason not to topic ban him from discussing the images of Muhammad? I've not seen substantive contributions from him in that area besides popping in to accuse others of bad faith. (It's true that enormous archives of Talk:Muhammad/Images have been jumbled by some weird technical process making it rather impossible to read them in any semblance of an order. If Hans Adler has made positive contributions there, the technical issue prevent me from finding them.) ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 20:10, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Is there enough evidence of bad faith to justify such an action? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:07, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
- Is there a reason not to topic ban him from discussing the images of Muhammad? I've not seen substantive contributions from him in that area besides popping in to accuse others of bad faith. (It's true that enormous archives of Talk:Muhammad/Images have been jumbled by some weird technical process making it rather impossible to read them in any semblance of an order. If Hans Adler has made positive contributions there, the technical issue prevent me from finding them.) ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 20:10, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
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Analysis of evidence
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General discussion
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