Talk:Barack Obama

Template:Stable version

Fixing template-size error with Cite_quick

05 October 2012: I have checked to see that the fast Template:Cite_quick (created 2 months ago) can be used to handle the wp:CS1-style citations in this article, and stop the error "template include size is too large". During testing, all other templates (and navboxes) have fit, so the use of {cite_quick} will solve the template-size error, plus allow another 500 citations to be added, and many could even use the original {cite_web} or {cite_journal} templates if needed. The edit-preview time will drop from about a 40-second delay to only an 11-second reformat. If there are no other concerns, then I will switch to use {cite_quick} later this evening, when there are few other changes in progress. -Wikid77 (talk) 21:47, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

You know very well, per the deletion discussion concerning this template, that it is only for testing and should not be deployed in article space, so should be removed from here. Please undo your change, as it has also broken many of the references.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 20:51, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

• Entire article was broken, rejecting 14 templates, so compromise: This is a compromise to get the entire article to display. Prior to the use of the fast {cite_quick} template, the entire article was broken (see prior revision: oldid=516263945), where it died on the final 14 templates. Two entire bottom navboxes could not display ( {US Presidents} & Election 2012), nor the Authority control, nor the {Persondata}, nor even the featured-article link; all the following templates were broken by the excessive total include-size:

• Template:Navbox, Template:US Presidents, Template:United States presidential election, 2012, Template:Authority control, Template:Use mdy dates, Template:Persondata, Template:Link GA, Template:Link GA, Template:Link FA, Template:Link FA, etc.

Now, the entire article will reformat, to display all other templates and navboxes, and edit-preview within 11 seconds, rather than 40. The template {cite_quick} is a compromise to allow wp:CS1 citation templates in very large articles, and contrary to incorrect claims, it was not discussed during the July 15 deletion discussion, but rather came as a later compromise. I have changed the journal cites to show volume and issue numbers, and any other formatting issues can be discussed. Also, other CS1 templates can still be used in the article, such as adding new cites by {cite web} or {cite press release}. Again, this is a compromise, to allow all templates to fit together, while we work to improve the article's content as well. -Wikid77 (talk) 08:43, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

JohnBlackburne is correct. You are being wilfully disruptive. You've been told time and again the people think your test templates should only serve to help improve the standard citation templates, and you won't do that. Instead, you disrupt articles, and suck peoples' time. You should be blocked for this, and my yet be. I've remove your test template for this page. I know that it's a tad over the template expansion size. The solution to that is to cut some of the over-citation that is present in this article (cf Wikipedia:Citation overkill). Over-done navboxes such as {{United States presidential election, 2012}} are not helping any, either. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 16:23, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

• No consensus to break navboxes & Persondata again: This article is involved in a featured-article review, and was specifically fixed to reformat all bottom templates, including 3 navboxes, {Persondata}, Authority control, and the FA/GA interwiki links to the other-language wikipedias. Please do not break the article again without prior consensus. Already, people have expressed favor to have the entire article fit within the page limits, without worrying about the template-size errors. Please respect that result. To reformat the entire article, then prior consensus is needed, such as by showing a userfied version which formats without breaking the bottom 14 templates. Thank you. -Wikid77 (talk) 05:19, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

  Reverted you. You've been enjoined from deploying your experimental templates into articles. You'll be blocked for disruption should you persist. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 06:37, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

  a note; I've reviewed the differences in the rendered output; there are many. There are a great many punctuation and positioning anomalies, but there are as many serious omissions of data; missing editors, quotes, agencies, journal names, &c. Your template is not fit; it is outright broken. I may not be used in articles. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 07:50, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for noting specific concerns, and I have changed {cite_quick} to handle those cases. Meanwhile, your revert has broken the entire article "Barack Obama" to crash the bottom 3 navboxes, {Persondata} and the FA/GA interwiki links. Please reverse your changes. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:40, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

If you know how to fix it then please do so. It's a fucking awful mess at the moment, and Br'er Rabbit is currently blocked. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:14, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

I have no opinion on the template itself, because I haven't taken the time to look at it, but I do know this: you two need to stop edit warring on this immediately. It's making it very difficult to follow changes in this article, and that is by definition disruptive. —Kerfuffler  thunder
plunder  12:08, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

• Br'er has been blocked 48 hours for edit warring, but I think was less worried about the 100 citations which crashed bottom navboxes or {Persondata} than about the missing cite values, which I have fixed now. I am sorry I did not respond sooner, and I realize this is a high-visibility featured article, but I have limited time to handle issues each day. The crashing of this article is a massive, complex problem, but I have fixed it again. -Wikid77 (talk) 18:05, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

You're at least as guilty of edit warring on this as Br'er Rabbit, and the next time you do it, it's going to WP:ANEW. It's hugely disruptive, and I don't want to hear excuses. —Kerfuffler  thunder
plunder  17:44, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Timeout with Wikimedia Foundation error

When an article takes longer than about 60 seconds to edit-preview, then the whole page can stop with "wp:Wikimedia Foundation error" (WFE). If the WFE error occurs when saving the page, then often the changes actually are saved, and the screen flashes the full-screen error afterward. Now, by using the fast-cite Template:Cite_quick, then the whole page reformats so rapidly that there is little chance of seeing Wikimedia Foundation error again during editing. Please remember, this is a vast, massive article, and it needs to be trimmed in size, or split, to simplify future editing. -Wikid77 (talk) 18:05, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

There's only 806 kilobytes of readable prose, which isn't all that much. The problem is the huge number of templates (which include citations, of course). It's already a summary style article with dozens of sub articles. It's hard to see how it could be cut down much further. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:14, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Can fix template-error by hand-coded cites

Another option, although very tedious, is to gain consensus, per WP:CITEVAR, to remove the citation templates and begin replacing with hand-coded citations of authors, italic titles, dates, etc. The initial effort probably requires the hand-coding of about 100 citations, as a first step, to fit within the post-expand include-size limit of 2,048,000 bytes of template data, and not crash the bottom 14 templates (3 navboxes, {Persondata}, Authority control, and FA/GA links). I guess, the next step is to !vote, further below. However, other concerns can be discussed at "#General discussion" rather than in the Support/Oppose/Neutral sub-threads. -Wikid77 (talk) 12:24, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Support

The following editors support removal of cite templates in "Barack Obama".

1. Support. Too much hostility and fear about cite templates, and whether the future Lua script modules will work (without their own new problems), and anyway, hand-coded citations are 30x times faster than {cite_news} or {cite_web}, etc. -Wikid77 (talk) 12:24, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Oppose

The following editors oppose removal of cite templates in "Barack Obama".

1. Oppose. Are you kidding? Handcoding citations is crazy talk. There are over 300 references, many of which apply multiple times. Switching over to handcoded references would require an enormous effort. And isn't that a retrograde step? The goal is generally to have more automation to make the life of the editor easier, not less. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:34, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Neutral

The following editors are neutral about cite templates in "Barack Obama".

1. Neutral. (comment)

General discussion

Discuss here with other comments about the use of the cite templates, {cite_news}, {cite_web}, {cite_quick}, etc. -Wikid77 (talk) 12:24, 14 October 2012 (UTC)